Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[tpe]

tpe:
All your comments below are right on the money IMHO. To me one of the things that makes this film so endearing is its ability to show these two men as "equals", but at the same time so very different from each other. This is what can (sometimes) make a deep, longlasting relationship work. And how we should often look at one another too, different but equal.

Thanks jackster.  And waht you say is true: it's the miracle of a relationship enduring in spite of obvious and deep-seated differences.  The struggle to make such a relationship work best reveals how 2 people in such a relationship "sees" each other.

[lamusica]

Because the two men are so different, all of us can relate to some degree with at least one of them, or parts of them.  I think this is what elevates this story into literature.  It is timeless and universal ( note the brokies from all over the world, of all ages).
I think the threads about which guy you prefer show us a lot about ourselves. While we love them both, one usually resonates more with us than the other.  I'm sure that's because we see elements of ourselves or someone we love in the preferred man.
We KNOW who each of them preferred -- each other.  They saw each other as their "other half".  While Jack got mad at Ennis's stubborn refusal to meet him halfway, he still loved Ennis, and while Ennis hated that Jack went to Mexico ( and I'm sure he knew he went with other men often), he still loved Jack.

[aintfoolin]

The element of time(20 years) in this *marriage* between Jack and Ennis is very telling in the way they felt about each other too. They experienced everything and anything any *normal* couple goes through. They met at 19 and grew into maturity together. The only factors missing was they did not live together while doing it. The fights, the love, the trials of love were all there though. If Ennis had committed to Jack in a permanent sense , this would have been complete as any married couple who have had 20  years together  knows. They had the love, strong enough to sustain a long term marriage from both parts Ennis just could not get past childhood fears to make this thing work. That's the only problem. I think he wanted to, just did'nt know how.

[tpe]

Because the two men are so different, all of us can relate to some degree with at least one of them, or parts of them.  I think this is what elevates this story into literature.  It is timeless and universal ( note the brokies from all over the world, of all ages).
I think the threads about which guy you prefer show us a lot about ourselves. While we love them both, one usually resonates more with us than the other.  I'm sure that's because we see elements of ourselves or someone we love in the preferred man.
We KNOW who each of them preferred -- each other.  They saw each other as their "other half".  While Jack got mad at Ennis's stubborn refusal to meet him halfway, he still loved Ennis, and while Ennis hated that Jack went to Mexico ( and I'm sure he knew he went with other men often), he still loved Jack.

Beautifully said, lamusica.  I think thast by us thinking about how each one saw the other, we get a feel for what we see in each of them.  We gravitate to each character in a different eay, and indeed, one usually resonates.  It is interesting to think about how we ourselves see each of them against the backdrop of the other -- because it reveals a lot about ourselves and why we are continually fascinated by them.

 

[tpe]

The element of time(20 years) in this *marriage* between Jack and Ennis is very telling in the way they felt about each other too. They experienced everything and anything any *normal* couple goes through. They met at 19 and grew into maturity together. The only factors missing was they did not live together while doing it. The fights, the love, the trials of love were all there though. If Ennis had committed to Jack in a permanent sense , this would have been complete as any married couple who have had 20  years together  knows. They had the love, strong enough to sustain a long term marriage from both parts Ennis just could not get past childhood fears to make this thing work. That's the only problem. I think he wanted to, just did'nt know how.

I guess we can say that they probably had an incomplete view of each other, no?  I am sure that their love was definitive, but all the rest seemed to have clouded their perceptions in how best to preserve and nurture that love.

[jackster]

Ennis just could not get past childhood fears to make this thing work. That's the only problem. I think he wanted to, just did'nt know how.

Very Much Agreed. I believe that childhood models can play a very important role in later life based on my own personal experience. What if Ennis’s father had been friends with Earl and Rich and he had gone over to their ranch sometimes with little Ennis to just shoot the breeze, play cards, or tend to the cattle or something? What a difference that experience would have made in Ennis’s later ability to actualize (to use a hyper modern phrase) his whole life. Our boys would have lived entirely different lives.

jackster

[welshwitch]

And I don't think they knew each other as two people who live together for many years do. What they were having has all the elements of an affair - carried on in secret, not known to anyone but them, involving the excitement and drama of occasional meetings, taking place in locations that are both remote and beautiful, allowing them to focus on their physical desire for each other - and some of a holiday. The relationship doesn't contain the element of routine that comes with living together - who's going to do the shopping/fill the car with gas/fix the broken blind, whatever. In thoe few original months on BBM, they had this, but again over a very brief period, and in an artificial and temporary situation.

So they don't, at least after the first few months, have to see each other in the round at all. People who see you in one situation only - on holiday, at work, as a member of a club, whatever, don't generally see you in your entirety, good and bad.

[aintfoolin]

Certainly, they did not have the everyday routine that *married* couples do . as they were not living day to day together due to Ennis's problem committing to Jack in co-habitation, A house sharing sense . But they had the basics. A love in which to build on, wanted desperatly  to be together A personal understanding of each other..  And a very itimate knowledge  of each other sexually. An emotional bond was there.  Those few months on Brokeback, where they did have a routine were part of their bonding process It proved that they were good together. Compatible to work together and accomplish something.  With Jack's business sense and Ennis love of animals, (particlarly horses would have suited them just fine. ) Jack was willing to give his  *normal* marriage up for Ennis and Ennis did survive Alma ,came to some  personal terms with himself afterwards. They would not be able to do these things if the love was'nt deep on both parts.  Deep enough to sustain a whole life together. Jack saw enough to ask Ennis to  be a partner . Unfortunately Ennis did'nt know how to break free of his fears.I don't blame Ennis so much as I blame a closed minded society. Fools who can't just live and let live. Then and now.

[jackster]

“No more BEANS!” Is this is the first indication of the partnership? A simple request and subsequent compliance between two individuals that begins to show the building of a relationship. This and the later partnership examples up on Brokeback was enough to make each of them believe it could work between them on a deeper level. They saw in each other a partner in the broad sense of the word before the love grabbed at them. It seems Ennis just couldn’t take it much beyond that in his head “Two men livin’ together, no way”.

[tpe]

Certainly, they did not have the everyday routine that *married* couples do . as they were not living day to day together due to Ennis's problem committing to Jack in co-habitation, A house sharing sense . But they had the basics. A love in which to build on, wanted desperatly  to be together A personal understanding of each other..  And a very itimate knowledge  of each other sexually. An emotional bond was there.  Those few months on Brokeback, where they did have a routine were part of their bonding process It proved that they were good together. Compatible to work together and accomplish something.  With Jack's business sense and Ennis love of animals, (particlarly horses would have suited them just fine. ) Jack was willing to give his  *normal* marriage up for Ennis and Ennis did survive Alma ,came to some  personal terms with himself afterwards. They would not be able to do these things if the love was'nt deep on both parts.  Deep enough to sustain a whole life together. Jack saw enough to ask Ennis to  be a partner . Unfortunately Ennis did'nt know how to break free of his fears.I don't blame Ennis so much as I blame a closed minded society. Fools who can't just live and let live. Then and now.

Then I guess it is fair to say that (in many ways) Ennis viewed himself and Jack through the lense of this society, and Jack sought to view their relationship outside of it...

[tpe]

“No more BEANS!” Is this is the first indication of the partnership? A simple request and subsequent compliance between two individuals that begins to show the building of a relationship. This and the later partnership examples up on Brokeback was enough to make each of them believe it could work between them on a deeper level. They saw in each other a partner in the broad sense of the word before the love grabbed at them. It seems Ennis just couldn’t take it much beyond that in his head “Two men livin’ together, no way”.

Yes, I do think there was a sense of partnership between them -- a knowledge that one could not go on completely without the other.  In the end, I think part of this sense of partnership failed: Jack sought to explore the possibilities of a life without Ennis, and Ennis, because of Jack's death, invariably ended up having to live it.

[lamusica]

“No more BEANS!” Is this is the first indication of the partnership? A simple request and subsequent compliance between two individuals that begins to show the building of a relationship. This and the later partnership examples up on Brokeback was enough to make each of them believe it could work between them on a deeper level. They saw in each other a partner in the broad sense of the word before the love grabbed at them. It seems Ennis just couldn’t take it much beyond that in his head “Two men livin’ together, no way”.

I think you hit the nail on the head, jackster.  My question is:  What happened to their relationship between coming down off the mountain and the reunion?  While Ennis still refused to consider a life with Jack, it is obvious he wanted Jack, was crazy about him, was all over him ( reunion kiss and motel).  I think this went beyond the bonds of friendship that "No More BEANS!" initiated.  Like all great love stories, the friendship came first and usually persists long after the passion.  They just weren't together long enough for this to happen.  Jack died way too young.

[aintfoolin]

What happened? Ennis made the big mistake by marrying Alma and soon realized that what happened up on Brokeback mountain , his enlighting experiences and sexual awaking with Jack were not going away. Yes he *went through the motions* with Alma  all the time preferring Jack Twist. When he received the postcard from Jack, Ennis's main objective was seeing Jack again after 4 years, It's obvious were Ennis's heart lies. The scenes of him waiting for Jack are a study in the age old romantic anticipation of reuniting with your greatest love. 8 beers later and countless cigarettes and curious glances from Alma he is finally in Jack's arms again. This  is his real world. ( excellently acted by Ledger) . The look of elation on his face speaks volumes. And then the confession: "Anit no reins on this one". I took this to mean that Ennis could no longer deny nor control how he felt about Jack It's as close to "I love you " as he came but well....we got the picture.  It's Ennis bein Ennis.  My thoughts.                               

[lamusica]

I tend to agree with you, aintfoolin.  Ennis's reaction when he saw Jack went WAAAAY beyond Jack's fondest hopes.  He now knew that what HE was feeling was being reciprocated.  Eventhough Ennis never says "I Love You", he does inimate it from time to time, and acts on it, also.

[aintfoolin]

I guess Jack can join the ranks in this sense with lots of WOMEN  I know on this matter  concerning your last line. , this describes alot of my freinds' husbands.!   I guess this  proves he's just a normal man after all!   Gotta luv em though. I mean , say for instance,  ya throw 3 kids  into the "sweet life " mix, allow Ennis to live about six years of married life with  Jack and their  story would have taken on a much different flavor too.!!.   Ennis may actually have gone fishing. for real and alot more often. too  No notes attached to the line needed ...alone. .... Nah,  Just bein silly.   LOL
 But you are correct Lamusica,  Seriously, it is the one time where we see Ennis truly , totally out  of control of his emotions concerning his feelings for Jack.  Jack was taken completely by suprise by it, as one look at their faces, and the story is told.

[jackster]

My question is:  What happened to their relationship between coming down off the mountain and the reunion?

What Happened? Great Question . . . . . To paraphrase Ennis:

"I come across a broken heart is whut happen’d."

Jack was drivin’ grooves across Texas, foolin’ around a bit here an’ there an’ bein’ his happy go lucky self, an’ gettin’ married. We get no indication (in the SS or film) that he gave a second thought to Ennis until the PC four years later. He may have thought about Ennis, but it’s not spelled out anywhere. I think he's written Ennis off as a lost cause and was totally taken by the ferocity of the reunion.

I like doin’ it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin’ it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin’ about you.


Ennis, on the other hand got married, yeah, but never let the idea of Jack slip from his head, like you said he was crazy about him. And knew he shouldn't a let him outta' his sights. He knew what he wanted and who he liked, and man, did it ever show up when they met again after four years. I don’t think he ever strayed much from that simple conclusion. Jack for all his later love and devotion to Ennis, never let that stop his eye from roving around here and there. Ennis never considered another man (or woman) from what we’re led to believe. He was as faithful as a dog, if limited in his scope. And like a dying dog who can't figure out how to turn on a simple faucet to get a drink, Ennis can't figure out how to make a life with Jack.

Again the beauty of AP’s writing shines here – Whatda’ ya want – An eager, hell bent Jack ready for anything, even a little action on the side, or, A steady, faithful Ennis, unwilling to go out on a limb, but never straying from his true love. What a great, if impossible choice! Of course you want both – but you can’t have it!

jackster

[tpe]

I tend to agree with you, aintfoolin.  Ennis's reaction when he saw Jack went WAAAAY beyond Jack's fondest hopes.  He now knew that what HE was feeling was being reciprocated.  Eventhough Ennis never says "I Love You", he does inimate it from time to time, and acts on it, also.

Ennis certainly didn't express himself best in words.  And I think Jack knew this and understood this. 

I don't think Jack ever doubted that he was the right one for Ennis, and I suspect that Ennis deep-down never seriously questioned this, no?

[tpe]

What Happened? Great Question . . . . . To paraphrase Ennis:

"I come across a broken heart is whut happen’d."

Jack was drivin’ grooves across Texas, foolin’ around a bit here an’ there an’ bein’ his happy go lucky self, an’ gettin’ married. We get no indication (in the SS or film) that he gave a second thought to Ennis until the PC four years later. He may have thought about Ennis, but it’s not spelled out anywhere. I think he's written Ennis off as a lost cause and was totally taken by the ferocity of the reunion.

I do think jack acted in this way because he had assumed that Ennis wanted it this way.  Although I have no doubt that Jack knew where his heart lay and knew that his feelings were reciprocated, he was reluctant to force the issue with Ennis.  Hence, the attempt to forget...

I like doin’ it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin’ it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin’ about you.


Ennis, on the other hand got married, yeah, but never let the idea of Jack slip from his head, like you said he was crazy about him. And knew he shouldn't a let him outta' his sights. He knew what he wanted and who he liked, and man, did it ever show up when they met again after four years. I don’t think he ever strayed much from that simple conclusion. Jack for all his later love and devotion to Ennis, never let that stop his eye from roving around here and there. Ennis never considered another man (or woman) from what we’re led to believe. He was as faithful as a dog, if limited in his scope. And like a dying dog who can't figure out how to turn on a simple faucet to get a drink, Ennis can't figure out how to make a life with Jack.

Again the beauty of AP’s writing shines here – Whatda’ ya want – An eager, hell bent Jack ready for anything, even a little action on the side, or, A steady, faithful Ennis, unwilling to go out on a limb, but never straying from his true love. What a great, if impossible choice! Of course you want both – but you can’t have it!

jackster

Ennis did somehow assume that Jack would come back to find him, no?  Ennis can be so difficult, especially in this regard, no?  He knew what he wanted, but was too passive to act directly on how he felt.

[jackster]

He knew what he wanted, but was too passive to act directly on how he felt.

I agree with all you say here except Ennis being too passive. Based on the simple SS quote that "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spendin" I have to assume that it wasn't that he was was too passive, he just didn't (couldn't) see it. It was beyond his comprehension that two men could live together succesfully. Like Earl 'n Rich, they'd be dead, period. He wasn't able to get beyond that. IMHO if Ennis had been able to see this life as a plausible one, he'd a done it - the hell with everybody else. I think his early experience was that it wouldn't work no matter whut.

jackster

[lamusica]

Jack was drivin’ grooves across Texas, foolin’ around a bit here an’ there an’ bein’ his happy go lucky self, an’ gettin’ married. We get no indication (in the SS or film) that he gave a second thought to Ennis until the PC four years later. He may have thought about Ennis, but it’s not spelled out anywhere. I think he's written Ennis off as a lost cause and was totally taken by the ferocity of the reunion.


jackster

No disrespect intended, jackster, but I think there is evidence that Jack thought about Ennis before the reunion.  He went back to Aquirre's trailor the following summer looking for work and asked if Ennis had been there.  The look on his face was full of hope until Aguierre said, no, Ennis hadn't been around.  I think Jack pined for Ennis during those four years, but   knew Ennis was supposed to get married to Alma and so just figured there was no future for the two of them.  (Just MHO.)

[lamusica]

I agree with all you say here except Ennis being too passive. Based on the simple SS quote that "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spendin" I have to assume that it wasn't that he was was too passive, he just didn't (couldn't) see it. It was beyond his comprehension that two men could live together succesfully. Like Earl 'n Rich, they'd be dead, period. He wasn't able to get beyond that. IMHO if Ennis had been able to see this life as a plusible one, he'd a done it - the hell with everybody else. I think his early experience was that it wouldn't work no matter whut.

jackster

I agree with you, jackster, about Ennis NOT being passive.  When you look at the two guys, it is easy to assume that Jack is the dominant personality.  This comes mostly from his loud, fun-loving nature, and the fact that he grabbed Ennis's hand in FNIT scene.  However, other than that, in my opinion, it is ENNIS who is dominant, although in a quiet, more contained manner.  In the SNIT, Jack initiates the first kiss they share, but once ENnis has had a taste, it is ENnis who pulls Jack over on top of him.  It is Ennis who loses control at the reunion and kisses Jack so soundly.  (Jack, then, has to reciprocate fiercely.)  It is Ennis who comes up behind Jack and wraps his arm around him in the flashback scene.  So, I agree.  Ol' Ennis is not so passive.

[jackster]

No disrespect intended, jackster, but I think there is evidence that Jack thought about Ennis before the reunion.  He went back to Aquirre's trailor the following summer looking for work and asked if Ennis had been there.

Your absolutely right lamusica, I forgot all about that question in the trailer, he was still dreaming about him. Thanks for setting me straight here.
I wonder why he didn't go lookin' for Ennis then instead of lighting out for Texas? Was he threatened by Aguirre's comment and that maybe other folks around knew about him from last summer? Did it take three more years for that fear to recede? Just wondering.

jackster

[manhattangirl]

Fear wasn't Jack's problem, finding his own place in life was.  Texas was his next move.  He married well, had a son.  But was  treated like an interloper in a well to do family.  He went looking for the one person, he thought he felt cared and accepted him, his friend, he went looking for Ennis.

I believe Jack wasn't sure how it would turn out, Ennis answered that question when they met again.  I could see why Jack stayed in this situation with Ennis for so long.  The Dozy Embrace, was a real possibility that it would come again and it would last forever.

[tpe]

I agree with all you say here except Ennis being too passive. Based on the simple SS quote that "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spendin" I have to assume that it wasn't that he was was too passive, he just didn't (couldn't) see it. It was beyond his comprehension that two men could live together succesfully. Like Earl 'n Rich, they'd be dead, period. He wasn't able to get beyond that. IMHO if Ennis had been able to see this life as a plausible one, he'd a done it - the hell with everybody else. I think his early experience was that it wouldn't work no matter whut.

jackster

Perhaps, but the overall impression I get is still one of passivity -- at least in his dealings with Jack (if only in this) -- especially during the period leading up to the reunion.

It was clear that he wanted to hear from Jack during the 4 years after 63.  But I don't really think he did anything out of the ordinary to try to find out what had happened to Jack.  True, he had other obligations, but so did Jack.  I think it is fair to say that in this instance, Jack was the active agent.

Another indication is that he always waited for Jack to come to him -- except perhaps in the end when he did not hear from Jack and sought to know whether he would still be coming in November.

As you had pointed out, it is possible that it was more  an indication that all this was beyond Ennis's understanding.  Denial can indeed be that deep.  But I still think acknowledging this possibility does not negate the charge of passivity in love.

[tpe]

Your absolutely right lamusica, I forgot all about that question in the trailer, he was still dreaming about him. Thanks for setting me straight here.
I wonder why he didn't go lookin' for Ennis then instead of lighting out for Texas? Was he threatened by Aguirre's comment and that maybe other folks around knew about him from last summer? Did it take three more years for that fear to recede? Just wondering.

jackster

I think the reason is because he had assumed that Ennis did not want anything further to do with him -- and Ennis's absence in the summer of 64 did seem to confirm it: that Ennis had married and had decided definitively to move on.  It is a very natural reaction on Jack's or anyone's part: to try to forget a failed love by moving to another state or another country.  This makes Jack's overture to Ennis after 4 years all the more extraordinary. 

[lamusica]

I think that Manhattan Girl makes a good point here.  It was hard for him to find his place in Lureen's family, and he needed Ennis.  He had had enough of people who didn't respect him, so went looking for the one man who did.  To me, that answers the question about why, after four years, Jack finally got active.  Ennis, on the other hand, was prime for the picking.  He was just going through the motions ( husband, father, hard-worker), so he was ready when Jack came looking for him.  Sometimes it takes some time to realize what you're really missing in life.  In this case, they were both missing the same thing -- each other.

[jackster]

Sometimes it takes some time to realize what you're really missing in life.  In this case, they were both missing the same thing -- each other.

Very well said lamusica.

jackster

[tpe]

I think that Manhattan Girl makes a good point here.  It was hard for him to find his place in Lureen's family, and he needed Ennis.  He had had enough of people who didn't respect him, so went looking for the one man who did.  To me, that answers the question about why, after four years, Jack finally got active.  Ennis, on the other hand, was prime for the picking.  He was just going through the motions ( husband, father, hard-worker), so he was ready when Jack came looking for him.  Sometimes it takes some time to realize what you're really missing in life.  In this case, they were both missing the same thing -- each other.

In the reunion kiss and embrace, we really see them react with no inhibition. I would like to think that this shows us their true feelings for each other -- expressions that would have not been hidden or obfuscated by fears of society.

The reunion kiss and embrace came as natural to them.

[tpe]

Very well said lamusica.

jackster

I agree.  Very well said.

[aintfoolin]

This is true. They were  missing each other and were in each other's thoughts during the 4 year separation. In the motel scene Ennis explained that he thought the "Army had got him" and / or that Jack was still pissed off about the punch. Ennis never thought he'd see Jack again. Maybe even thought he'd been killed in the war.
 In any case he was resigned to making a living and taking care of his family. It's obvious that he still preferred Jack over the life he had. The SS alludes to this.  should never have  let Jack out of his sight. He still could not get his head around the fact that Jack loved him without conditions, it was too good to be true. To him there were consecquences to be paid for loving him back since he was taught against the very thing that he desired as a grown man. If he allowed himself to freely love Jack, bad things were gonna happen to them....But..Even his wife or the birth of 2 dearly loved daugters could not extinguish this fire inside. Brokeback did "get them good" as Jack acknowledged. Jack was his "lil dariln" as the SS said, putting Jack in the category with the  most beloved and precious loves of his life: his girls and his horses. The use of this endearment is telling in the way Ennis felt about Jack. Jack had to know Ennis loved him but had conflicts inside himself.