Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[aintfoolin]

  First of all I know that they loved very  deeply, Did Ennis see Jack as a gay male? What was it about this love that kept Jack coming back to Ennis for 20 years without a commitment? Did'nt he start to feel used by Ennis at SOME point? Aside from the physical part.was Ennis an addictive challange for Jack? He ( Ennis) could not admit himself gay but how did he really think of Jack.? Jack made no secret to Ennis about what he preferred  sexually from the start.  How could Ennis justify his  own denial. to himself?  Yeah I understand the fear of harm  and everything but there has to be more to it on a personal level for both of them.  with verbal communication lacking, Jack argued with Ennis about "not wanting " to share a life together. Personally I think Ennis did want it but for some reason he would not.  An abuse of power maybe? Why in the world , knowing what Jack wanted and craved so much ,would Ennis deny him a permanant life? IMO Ennis should have been willing  to sacrifice one last time in order to prove  the ultimate test of love to one so truly deserving of it. Jack. He was  so worth a shot .

[FlwrChild]

He absolutely was. And I think Ennis finally realized it too late, after Jack was gone and nothing could be done. But before that, he was locked in his own self-denial and fear. I don't think he even allowed himself to admit that what they had was love, classic romantic love. He clung to his "You know I ain't queer" mantra like a protective coat. And tried, I think, to mold his idea of Jack to fit that same frame. If he thought of Jack as gay, he'd have to entertain the possibility that he was gay too. And that was something he wasn't able to do.

I think he thought of Jack as his best friend. As the one person he felt like 'himself' with. As the one person he could be free with. And certainly he was drawn to Jack physically. But I don't think he allowed himself to acknowledge his love for Jack, even just to himself, in the same way that I think Jack knew how he felt about Ennis.

In spite of all that, he did make remarkable sacrifices to be with Jack. Quitting jobs and living a spartan lifestyle to be able to accomodate a regular meeting schedule. And more than that, living with the constant fear of people 'knowing' about him just by looking at him. He was fighting against a lifetime of conditioning and did the best he could.

As to Jack, I think he was just a more impulsive, follow the heart kind of person. He wanted a life with Ennis but accepted the conditions because he wanted whatever time they could have together. And I think, as evidenced by the post-divorce scene, that for a long time he thought that eventually that might happen. After the cold water got poured on that idea, he was just in too deep to walk away.

Either way, they sustained a loving relationship for 20 years. Even with all of their heartache and lost chances, that is one heck of an accomplishment.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis was a realist, Jack a dreamer,  it was pointed out when they were together and Jack angry told Ennis he wanted to live his miserable life.  I don't think it escape them at all at what kind of life they both were living. 

Ennis love for Jack goes so deeply, he felt he was committed to him, and living his solitary life, but he knew it was impossible for them to have a life.  Jack love him the same way, his commitment was his heart,  his soul, but not necessarily his body, "I'm not you" he told Ennis.   in spite of his wife, his comfortable life, even Randall in the background.  He would have gladly gave all of it up for Ennis without hesitation.

They knew how they felt about each other, but knew how far one would go for the other, and that's the heartbreaking thing about it.  How far would one go for the other do you think?

[lamusica]

I've always thought that it was mostly lonliness that brought these two guys together ( along with circumstance).  Neither had a strong tie to a family, nor lots of friends and associates.  The jobs they went after were lonely, as was the job on BBM.  Although Ennis had Alma waiting at home, he was willing to leave her to look for work which kept him away from her.  And, although Jack had a mom and dad, they lived such a bleak, isolated life, he was willing to go on the rodeo circuit and take odd jobs to pay his entrance fees.  So, I think both men were used to being solitary, making decisions for themselves about their own lives, and not asking help from anyone.
      Keeping that in mind, then, this togetherness into which they were thrust in the BBM job was something they were not necessarily used to, but something they grew to like. I think they first came to be friends -- they teased each other, drank together, laughed and talked.  They became very much at ease with one another.  This, of course, paved the way for Jack to make his overture.
      As the years passed, I think their friendship deepened, as did their passion for one another, even after the newness wore off.  It was always good for them (SS).  They became each other's habit -- comfortable, but contained within the various mountain ranges they explored. Jack loved Ennis and would have traveled around the world to get to him.  Ennis, in my opinion, needed Jack's affection and love enough that he sometimes reciprocated.  Deep down, Ennis was the needy one, and Jack met his needs.  Jack made Ennis's life worth living, which is something Alma couldn't do. But, did Ennis love as much as Jack??? IMO, it wasn't untiil Ennis found the shirts that he really understood what love was and how much Jack loved him.  Then, Ennis acccepted the fact that he did, indeed, LOVE Jack.

[tpe]

  First of all I know that they loved very  deeply, Did Ennis see Jack as a gay male? What was it about this love that kept Jack coming back to Ennis for 20 years without a commitment? Did'nt he start to feel used by Ennis at SOME point? Aside from the physical part.was Ennis an addictive challange for Jack? He ( Ennis) could not admit himself gay but how did he really think of Jack.? Jack made no secret to Ennis about what he preferred  sexually from the start.  How could Ennis justify his  own denial. to himself?  Yeah I understand the fear of harm  and everything but there has to be more to it on a personal level for both of them.  with verbal communication lacking, Jack argued with Ennis about "not wanting " to share a life together. Personally I think Ennis did want it but for some reason he would not.  An abuse of power maybe? Why in the world , knowing what Jack wanted and craved so much ,would Ennis deny him a permanant life? IMO Ennis should have been willing  to sacrifice one last time in order to prove  the ultimate test of love to one so truly deserving of it. Jack. He was  so worth a shot .

This is a difficult question.

I think Jack probably had a clearer eye in accepting and seeing things as they were.  He probably didn't think too deeply about things.  But he knew how he felt and knew what he wanted.

I think Jack was certainly more accepting about himself AND about Ennis.  I think Ennis never really saw things the same way that Jack saw them.  Part of this is denial.  Another part is fear of facing up to himself.

Both of them did try to rationalize their relationship at one time or another, but I don't think both of them really wanted to understand it in a deep way.  But the fact that Jack was more accepting of himself and the way he felt helped him to see and understand Ennis.  Jack understood Ennis's denial and fears.  It was a matter of waiting patiently to see if things would change.

[welshwitch]

Do you ever really see the person you love? Aren't they most of the time just whoever they are, till something external - someone else's comment, something they do that you aren't involved in, something that emerges about their past - makes you pull up suddenly and reconsider?

Part of the reason the whole thing lasted so long is that Jack was just Jack to Ennis and Ennis just Ennis to Jack - once Jack was dead Ennis may well have seen him, thought about him, differently but not while he was alive.

[FlwrChild]

And I suppose, even if they misunderstood each other, there was kind of a sweet purity to the fact that they weren't particularly analytical and that to each other they were just Jack and Ennis.

[tpe]

And I suppose, even if they misunderstood each other, there was kind of a sweet purity to the fact that they weren't particularly analytical and that to each other they were just Jack and Ennis.

Yes, there is a natural, Whitmanesque quality to their blossoming love, especially on BBM.

[aintfoolin]

Ennis held within himself something that was almost essential to Jack's happiness. An acknowledgement that they were the same. Jack could not live with Ennis without it. They had to be as one. Ennis still thinking " I ain't queer" is an unacceptable attitude if they were to make this thing work. Yes they were just Ennis and Jack, but Ennis held their love captive through his fears. My opinion.






Yes, I understand that they were "just Jack and Ennis" but Ennis withheld something inside himself that was almost essential to Jack's happiness and that was the acknowledgement that they were the same. Ennis's " I ain't queer ' attitude was unacceptable . If Jack expected to live with Ennis, Ennis would have to come to terms with this "thing" as he put it if this relationship was going to grow.These feelings were'nt going away any time soon so he might as well just accept them, but that's easier said than done.  the question is could Ennis do it? He would be required to look deep within and see himself on an equal plane with Jack and that's a very high standard for Ennis to acheive. Self-denial would defintly no longer sit well with Jack. He would need to know that Ennis fully accepted who he was. To deny himself was to deny Jack.

[tpe]

I suspect that if there was any person who could help Ennis come to terms with "this thing", it would be Jack.  I do think Jack had a calming effect on Ennis.  Jack probably thought that he would be a match to Ennis's fears.  But it did seem that close to the end of Jack's life, he was defeated by Ennis's increasing fear and isolation. 

And yes, Jack would have needed Ennis to be more accepting of himself if he would ever hope to make headway at opening Ennis up to his view of the world.  But was it a vicious circle? 

In any case, perhaps Ennis saw something in Jack that mirrored what he saw in himself.  He loved Jack, but was also afraid of what he stood for: a love that he could neither deny nor totally accept.

[manhattangirl]

Yes, I understand that they were "just Jack and Ennis" but Ennis withheld something inside himself that was almost essential to Jack's happiness and that was the acknowledgement that they were the same. Ennis's " I ain't queer ' attitude was unacceptable . If Jack expected to live with Ennis, Ennis would have to come to terms with this "thing" as he put it if this relationship was going to grow.These feelings were'nt going away any time soon so he might as well just accept them, but that's easier said than done.  the question is could Ennis do it? He would be required to look deep within and see himself on an equal plane with Jack and that's a very high standard for Ennis to acheive. Self-denial would defintly no longer sit well with Jack. He would need to know that Ennis fully accepted who he was. To deny himself was to deny Jack.

Ainfoolin hit the nail on the head.   "this thing comes over us"   Well Ennis, my friend "this thing" is a constant, it's what and who you are.  Ennis talks like the attraction, the love, the need they had for each other is like having a "fit" and you need to be held down so you won't hurt yourself, and wait until it passes, but it didn't pass, the "fit", this "thing" lasted for twenty years.   

If Ennis couldn't get pass that, then what chance did they really have?

[welshwitch]

"This thing" is an odd expression too, in that it makes it sound as though the feeling betweeen them is a separate entity, a sort of third in a triangle, and that third is dangerous and destructive. Ennis clearly doesn't want to see his feelings as part of him, and almost appears to be taking the attitude that Jack's aren't a part of Jack either. There are the two of them then this alien thing which affects them both but has to be fought against, presumably by each of them. It never seems to occur to him, or if it does he never acknowledges it, that Jack accepts what he never can and doesn;t see it as anything separate from himself.

[aintfoolin]

 Jack had to understand Ennis in order to accept this nothing short of shame about what they were doing too. When he told Jack that they could meet "out in the middle of nowhere" every once in a while is very telling, but he played on Jack's emotions and longing when he attached "aint no reins on this one" to the statement. Jack was so wanting to be with Ennis that he accepted this as Ennis being unable to control what he felt after 4 long years, and I beleive that this is actually what it was imo, but he soon found out that Ennis himself WAS  the reins on the relationship. It was Ennis's own conflicts within that pulled those reins in each time Jack asked  more from him. Soon it became a false hope to Jack and he could no longer deny to himself that Ennis was not going to move forward with him. He gave Ennis all kinds of clues as to what his state of mind was at that last meeting asking Ennis " after all this time you never found nobody else to marry? and then " telling Ennis about the ranch foreman's wife on the side, and finally " I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". To me these are all clues to Ennis that Jack was feeling  "lost" and he was relaying to Ennis that these were things to show he was tired of the status quo and ""drifting "away time just waiting. When Ennis moved back the date of the next meeting,Jack had to feel that Ennis was'nt "getting it" and explained it to him finally in a language that Ennis could understand. When he did that, He saw Ennis breakdown, raw and uncensored. He drove Ennis to his breaking point.

[tpe]

"This thing" is an odd expression too, in that it makes it sound as though the feeling betweeen them is a separate entity, a sort of third in a triangle, and that third is dangerous and destructive. Ennis clearly doesn't want to see his feelings as part of him, and almost appears to be taking the attitude that Jack's aren't a part of Jack either. There are the two of them then this alien thing which affects them both but has to be fought against, presumably by each of them. It never seems to occur to him, or if it does he never acknowledges it, that Jack accepts what he never can and doesn;t see it as anything separate from himself.

Good point.  It is as if Ennis sees "this thing" as distinct from either one, whereas I am sure that Jacdk didn't look at himself and Ennis in the same light.  This certainly tells us a lot about how Ennis would have wanted to see Jack and himself vis-a-vis their relationship.  It was as if Ennis considered it a struggle against something that drew them together.  Hence, Ennis would have seen himself and Jack as victims of an involuntary power that was not really core to who they really were...

[tpe]

Jack had to understand Ennis in order to accept this nothing short of shame about what they were doing too. When he told Jack that they could meet "out in the middle of nowhere" every once in a while is very telling, but he played on Jack's emotions and longing when he attached "aint no reins on this one" to the statement. Jack was so wanting to be with Ennis that he accepted this as Ennis being unable to control what he felt after 4 long years, and I beleive that this is actually what it was imo, but he soon found out that Ennis himself WAS  the reins on the relationship. It was Ennis's own conflicts within that pulled those reins in each time Jack asked  more from him. Soon it became a false hope to Jack and he could no longer deny to himself that Ennis was not going to move forward with him. He gave Ennis all kinds of clues as to what his state of mind was at that last meeting asking Ennis " after all this time you never found nobody else to marry? and then " telling Ennis about the ranch foreman's wife on the side, and finally " I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". To me these are all clues to Ennis that Jack was feeling  "lost" and he was relaying to Ennis that these were things to show he was tired of the status quo and ""drifting "away time just waiting. When Ennis moved back the date of the next meeting,Jack had to feel that Ennis was'nt "getting it" and explained it to him finally in a language that Ennis could understand. When he did that, He saw Ennis breakdown, raw and uncensored. He drove Ennis to his breaking point.

So you think that there was really a total disconnect over how each thought what the other wanted...  Perhaps Ennis did pick up the hints from Jack but understood them only up to some level.  Rememeber that Ennis was willing to let things go so long as he didn't get to know them.  But for Jack, it was trying to get Ennis to know everything, no?  He wanted Ennis to face up to all the unknowns and unacknowledged feelings that were tearing them apart...

[manhattangirl]

I'm only talking from Ennis's  view point.  Could it be that it wasn't only what happened to Earl and Rich, that stayed with Ennis, but the fact that he equated Earl and Rich, to him and Jack.  Remember how Ennis remembered them, "They were the joke of the town, but they were tough old birds",  He remembered them, he remembered what was said of them.  In other words, "I am them, they are me".   Does this make sense?  It goes to the fact of how Ennis identified himself.  Why didn't Jack remember this, and tried to reach Ennis "we are not them, they are not us".   

[tpe]

I'm only talking from Ennis's  view point.  Could it be that it wasn't only what happened to Earl and Rich, that stayed with Ennis, but the fact that he equated Earl and Rich, to him and Jack.  Remember how Ennis remembered them, "They were the joke of the town, but they were tough old birds",  He remembered them, he remembered what was said of them.  In other words, "I am them, they are me".   Does this make sense?  It goes to the fact of how Ennis identified himself.  Why didn't Jack remember this, and tried to reach Ennis "we are not them, they are not us".   

Yes, I do think the comparison with Earl and Rich in Ennis's mind goes deepr than what happened to them.  I think it was a lot of stuff -- the disapproval and marginalization that was typified by Ennis's dad and by the town that made fun of them. 

Even though Jack was told about it, I don't think he really knew how ingrained it was in Ennis's mind and heart.  Had he known, I am sure he would have tried to exorcise it in some way, and not just leave things at that.

In the end, Jack did make a telling statement: "I'm not you."  You can read a lot of other things here.



 

[lamusica]

"This thing" is an odd expression too, in that it makes it sound as though the feeling betweeen them is a separate entity, a sort of third in a triangle, and that third is dangerous and destructive. Ennis clearly doesn't want to see his feelings as part of him, and almost appears to be taking the attitude that Jack's aren't a part of Jack either. There are the two of them then this alien thing which affects them both but has to be fought against, presumably by each of them. It never seems to occur to him, or if it does he never acknowledges it, that Jack accepts what he never can and doesn;t see it as anything separate from himself.

I think it's telling, though, that Ennis won't accept "this thing" as anything he has himself and can control.  By putting it outside of himself, he can put the blame for something he still, deep inside, thinks is wrong, onto something inanimate.  "This thing" causes he and Jack to do the things they do.  This just goes along with Ennis's inability to accept his true nature, IMO.

[welshwitch]

That "I'm not you" remark says a lot about how they haven't, in Jack's opinion, grown together. Though they may have grown
old(er),  they've grown old(er) separately. Now Jack is pointing out, if he hasn't seen it before, which I think he must have done, that they aren't one and the same, as lovers often claim to be, not two halves of one whole but two separate and different people.Ennis never sees, or thinks, either, that Rich and Earl may have had many years together, and might have been glad they'd had them despite how it all ended. Ironically Jack and Ennis ended up in exactly the same way, but without having had the years together.

[manhattangirl]

Jack's point of view, the "dozy embrace" is what he and Ennis  were.  You can say what you will about Jack, but from that point on he viewed themselves being that, till his death.  That is what he wanted back.  That what was his "sweet life".   Ennis was the only obstacle in the way of that life.  Jack was exhausted, tire of the battle.  "You're too much for me."  Jack finally admitted after 20 years to himself , he couldn't fight against Ennis unwillingness anymore. 

[tpe]

That "I'm not you" remark says a lot about how they haven't, in Jack's opinion, grown together. Though they may have grown
old(er),  they've grown old(er) separately. Now Jack is pointing out, if he hasn't seen it before, which I think he must have done, that they aren't one and the same, as lovers often claim to be, not two halves of one whole but two separate and different people.Ennis never sees, or thinks, either, that Rich and Earl may have had many years together, and might have been glad they'd had them despite how it all ended. Ironically Jack and Ennis ended up in exactly the same way, but without having had the years together.

I think after Jack's death, Ennis did get to see Jack in a whole new light -- as a person who truly struggled in his love for Ennis. It's a pity that Jack didn't live to see Ennis's change of heart...

[tpe]

Jack's point of view, the "dozy embrace" is what he and Ennis  were.  You can say what you will about Jack, but from that point on he viewed themselves being that, till his death.  That is what he wanted back.  That what was his "sweet life".   Ennis was the only obstacle in the way of that life.  Jack was exhausted, tire of the battle.  "You're too much for me."  Jack finally admitted after 20 years to himself , he couldn't fight against Ennis unwillingness anymore. 

I agree.  The "Dozy Embrace" best sums up Jack's view of himself and Ennis.  This is his valediction.

[aintfoolin]

I agree wholeheartely with you both!  the dozy embrace Ennis was the evidence, the proof if you will for Jack that somewhere deep inside the was a part of Ennis that was free to love without conditions.  To love them. A truly "no reins on this one" Ennis. He had seen it,felt it too.This says to me had he lived he would hadve tried to find that Ennis again. He was in there somwhere hiding.in fear...but he was there ..waiting for Jack to find him again.

[tpe]

I agree wholeheartely with you both!  the dozy embrace Ennis was the evidence, the proof if you will for Jack that somewhere deep inside the was a part of Ennis that was free to love without conditions.  To love them. A truly "no reins on this one" Ennis. He had seen it,felt it too.This says to me had he lived he would hadve tried to find that Ennis again. He was in there somwhere hiding.in fear...but he was there ..waiting for Jack to find him again.

I think they really understood each other on that deeper level where unconditional love resides.  It is sad that other issues clouded their vision of what could have been.  For Jack, most certainly, Ennis was best understood in that embrace.

[aintfoolin]

Is there a time established for this lovley scene? I often wonder why Jack was so "dozy". Sleeping on his feet?  One guess. This seems to be the one time that I see Ennis completely relaxed and comfortable with Jack and him as a couple. His love for Jack and "comfort zone" Ennis is in here stands out . no wonder This moment came back to Jack as Ennis drove away in that last meeting. This is the Ennis that Jack fell in love with,so caring and supportive.It also shows the contrast that the toll of Ennis's fears took on them both at the end.

[tpe]

Is there a time established for this lovley scene? I often wonder why Jack was so "dozy". Sleeping on his feet?  One guess. This seems to be the one time that I see Ennis completely relaxed and comfortable with Jack and him as a couple. His love for Jack and "comfort zone" Ennis is in here stands out . no wonder This moment came back to Jack as Ennis drove away in that last meeting. This is the Ennis that Jack fell in love with,so caring and supportive.It also shows the contrast that the toll of Ennis's fears took on them both at the end.

I would like to think that he was tired from love-making.  Perhaps they enjoyed it right before Ennis had to go to the sheep.  But most likely, it was nothing like that.  They had just finished dinner and he was tired and sleepy. 

I think this scene embodies Jack's true love for Ennis because it went beyond sex.  It was more of contentment.  After all, I think in the final analysis, it was Ennis's companionship he craved for.  Hence, I would like to think that deep down, Jack viewed Ennis as a companion that he can live with and grow old with.  That's agape, I suppose.

[aintfoolin]

I liken it to a newly divorced couple who thinks back on the happeier times in the marriage. In lots of ways their relationship was like a marriage and 20 years is a long time . The sex was good, but indeed it is all the other things: companionship, comfort,and just the familiarity that sustains the relationship. Jack understood Ennis's fears and lived with his faults as married couples do . How many straight couples break up bacause one party cannot commit due to fear of being tied  down to one person etc? Ennis was not afraid of being tied down by Jack in the same sense but the hurt and pain is not any less for Jack. He needed answers from Ennis, hopfully ones he wanted to hear , that Ennis was say finally say yes to a partnership and a sweet life together. Sadly it was not to be.

[tpe]

I liken it to a newly divorced couple who thinks back on the happeier times in the marriage. In lots of ways their relationship was like a marriage and 20 years is a long time . The sex was good, but indeed it is all the other things: companionship, comfort,and just the familiarity that sustains the relationship. Jack understood Ennis's fears and lived with his faults as married couples do . How many straight couples break up bacause one party cannot commit due to fear of being tied  down to one person etc? Ennis was not afraid of being tied down by Jack in the same sense but the hurt and pain is not any less for Jack. He needed answers from Ennis, hopfully ones he wanted to hear , that Ennis was say finally say yes to a partnership and a sweet life together. Sadly it was not to be.

If Ennis had also remembered the Dozy Embrace as something special, perhaps they would have seen eye to eye...  Perhaps he would have understood Jack at last.

[manhattangirl]

If Ennis had also remembered the Dozy Embrace as something special, perhaps they would have seen eye to eye...  Perhaps he would have understood Jack at last.

Maybe Ennis will remember it when he dreams of Jack.

[tpe]

Maybe Ennis will remember it when he dreams of Jack.

Perhaps.  Perhaps it could not have been one that left the sheets wet (either with tears or with semen).  But if Ennis had remembered, it was one that would have made him feel happiest (as in the opening scene of the short story.)