Author Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other? (Read 181318 times)

aintfoolin · « **Reply #150 on:** Apr 21, 2007, 09:09 PM »

Yes, you are absolutly right. Some of us speak from personal experience, Some of us just have strong opinions, but one thing we all agree on is , all of us can find something to take away from or identify with this eye-opening film and apply it to our personal lives. Ah lessons learned indeed. Thanks.

welshwitch · « **Reply #151 on:** Apr 22, 2007, 12:09 AM »

I find that it explains in retrospect things that have happened to me in the past - the discussions here also throw light on the most unexpected corners of one's life. It's the fact that we don;t all think alike but that we all listen to one another that makes this forum so enlightening in ways no-one could have anticipated or predicted.

ksxks · « **Reply #152 on:** Apr 22, 2007, 02:10 PM »

That is so true, WW. I'm reading all these posts and thinking that together we are one powerful force to be reckoned with. Synergy or whatever -- together we are more than the sum of our individual parts.

kathy

tpe · « **Reply #153 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 07:23 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Apr 20, 2007, 04:42 PM

Perhaps Ennis needed to realize that this love had become a part of him. He was running from himself in actuality. I think he saw himself loosing a certain control of himself, saw Jack as a threat to that control. He is one who has always been able to control every aspect of his emotional being. Every time he came near Jack physically , he saw what he loved and despised at the same time. He needed to just let go and allow these two aspects of himself to blend , the good and the bad to come together so that he could feel whole. He did'nt have to loose himself for there are more than one side to everybody. Stop trying to control where the peices fell and just go where ever the love led him and still remain just Ennis . Jack could have worked with that I beleive. It's that ol' *force of nature" tugging at him .There had to be that little voice is his head had to tell him that there was a void without Jack in his life. He only got and gave peices ,or little tastes of freedom when he and Jack went on these trips into the mountains. IMO there was 3 entities in this relationship Jack, Ennis and the consuming fear. It was Jack's competition for Ennis's soul as if it had a life of it's own. A competitor more powerful than Alma, jobs, etc. ever was ,yet on an equal plane in it's battle with Jack's love for Ennis. The real enemy in this thing . Jack saw it, fought against it, gave his best shot against it for 20 years. Ennis in a way fought to keep it safely wrapped up in his sense of right and wrong. Guilt towards his God givin right to love. This is the thing that kept Jack from breaking completely through the wall and reaching Ennis the way he wanted to. In the last confrontation Jack finally called it out, forcing Ennis to break down in an emotional, realistic way exorcising this fear to the surface . Jack was saying * you and you alone hold the key to both our happiness , so get over yourself and get on with it, This forced responsibility onto Ennis and showed that he was'nt just a passive participant in the affair, but in fact it was he himself who held all the cards. Jack's " your too much for me Ennis" showing his frustration at how something so clearly defined to him was so hard for the one he loved and wanted so much to see. Ennis himself was saying he could no longer stand what he had forced Jack to do. Stand it. Control totally lost , his own philosophy toward life came home to roost. ( You gotta stand it Jack) When Jack saw it, he saw Ennis's vulnerabilities exposed and Jack's nurturing, comforting embrace as he broke down showed a deep unconditional love for Ennis. My humble opinion.

Very well said. A lot of things you say here resonate with the way I feel about how Ennis viewed his relationships...

tpe · « **Reply #154 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 07:24 AM »

Quote from: ksxks on Apr 20, 2007, 10:55 PM

Yep. Ennis felt he had to follow the rules. Jack was always into making up new ones.

kathy

Did Jack view Ennis as more of a conformist? LIkewise, did Ennis think Jack was too much of a rebel?

tpe · « **Reply #155 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 07:27 AM »

Quote from: ksxks on Apr 21, 2007, 12:51 AM

These are such excellent posts. I feel an even deeper understanding of Ennis and Jack and wht transpired between them.

You know what occurs to me, reading all of these posts? That all of you people are very healthy psychologically and emotionally, and should have the most healthy of relationships. Or else we have learned valuable lessons from Ennis and Jack that will serve us well in all our future things with people -- friendship or love. Most of all, of course, to understand what we ourselves are doing, how we are living in our worlds.

kathy

It could also be because man of us have lived through rather unhealthy relationships. And perhaps all this is a projection of what we have become because of these relationships.

lamusica · « **Reply #156 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 12:13 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 23, 2007, 07:24 AM

Did Jack view Ennis as more of a conformist? LIkewise, did Ennis think Jack was too much of a rebel?

I sometimes think Jack is a rebel, but now I am leaning more toward thinking of him as naive. I don't think he really thinks he falls under the rules. He seems to have none of the fear Ennis has about being openly gay, or living with another guy. But I don't think he wants to do that simply to fly in the face of tradition or to break the rules. I think he just doesn't realize or doesn't believe that anything will happen to him. Then the great irony to that is that that is EXACTLy how and why he is killed. This is just so sad, but I have known people who do not understand their place in the world, and I think Jack might be one of them. He's not like that through any wrong-doing -- he's just not aware, even though Ennis tries to get him to understand the precariousness of their situation should "this thing" flare up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

zephK · « **Reply #157 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 04:34 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 23, 2007, 07:24 AM

Did Jack view Ennis as more of a conformist? LIkewise, did Ennis think Jack was too much of a rebel?

I think that Ennis was charmed by Jack's outgoing nature. Ennis was a very deprived child, Mom and Dad dead when he was 14; lived with his older brother (17) and sister (no age given) with no stated outside support for these three orphans. They didn't have a lot of money, he didn't have a whole lot of fun, and given the remoteness of the ranches where he lived, you know there wasn't a lot of hanging together with anyone after school. He had to drive an hour to get there! Ennis hadn't met that many people in his life (due to his remote location - a small town on the edge of the least populated state, which is still some huge acreage) and he certainly had never met anybody as funny, creative and talkative as Jack. Jack, OTOH, looked at Ennis as the big butch can-do guy: Kill an elk, take over the "herder's" job for him, make decisions like sticking through separating the sheep, etc. Jack, fun; Ennis the anchor. (Not for nothing there's an anchor lamp on the wall over Jack's bed.) IMHO.

tpe · « **Reply #158 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 05:39 PM »

Quote from: lamusica on Apr 23, 2007, 12:13 PM

I sometimes think Jack is a rebel, but now I am leaning more toward thinking of him as naive. I don't think he really thinks he falls under the rules. He seems to have none of the fear Ennis has about being openly gay, or living with another guy. But I don't think he wants to do that simply to fly in the face of tradition or to break the rules. I think he just doesn't realize or doesn't believe that anything will happen to him. Then the great irony to that is that that is EXACTLy how and why he is killed. This is just so sad, but I have known people who do not understand their place in the world, and I think Jack might be one of them. He's not like that through any wrong-doing -- he's just not aware, even though Ennis tries to get him to understand the precariousness of their situation should "this thing" flare up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I also don't think that Jack was a rebel -- well, at least, for much of his life. But I suspect that he was not exactly totally naive either. After all, handling Ennis required some dexterity and subtlety that Jack certainly did seem to have.

I suspect that he was probably more cautious than it appears about what the outside world would construe regarding the relationship. I think this was part of the reason why he quietly acquiesced to Ennis's point of view about not living their relationshop out in the open. He recognized that Ennis did indeed have a point.

But it must be admitted that Jack wanted so much to be with Ennis that he probably became more and more frustrated with each passing year, and his frustration led to a sense of recklessness -- of not caring anymore about the consequences. He was probably bursting inside, and this, more than being naive, pushed him to finally make that decision that probably cost him his life.

Still, I find your comment fascinating, particularly about people who don't understand their place in the world. It is almost akin to an uninformed, reckless heroism, no? Sometime, to be blind to one's place in the world is a gift and a curse...

tpe · « **Reply #159 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 05:42 PM »

Quote from: zephK on Apr 23, 2007, 04:34 PM

I think that Ennis was charmed by Jack's outgoing nature. Ennis was a very deprived child, Mom and Dad dead when he was 14; lived with his older brother (17) and sister (no age given) with no stated outside support for these three orphans. They didn't have a lot of money, he didn't have a whole lot of fun, and given the remoteness of the ranches where he lived, you know there wasn't a lot of hanging together with anyone after school. He had to drive an hour to get there! Ennis hadn't met that many people in his life (due to his remote location - a small town on the edge of the least populated state, which is still some huge acreage) and he certainly had never met anybody as funny, creative and talkative as Jack. Jack, OTOH, looked at Ennis as the big butch can-do guy: Kill an elk, take over the "herder's" job for him, make decisions like sticking through separating the sheep, etc. Jack, fun; Ennis the anchor. (Not for nothing there's an anchor lamp on the wall over Jack's bed.) IMHO.

Welcome. zephK .

So it was more like complementarity at work here. Both saw each other in terms of qualities they lacked in themselves but admired nonetheless. In this sense, each saw the other as something exciting and different.

lamusica · « **Reply #160 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 07:16 PM »

I find it interesting to wqtch Jack's face the first time he tells Ennis they should live together and is refused and then when they are in bed in the motel and, again, Ennis refuses. Then -- in their last scene together, when Jack says "We could have had it all". There seem to be subtle changes. The first time, Jack is hurt, it seems to me. The second time, he is plain old frustrated, and the last time he is madder than hell. He has evolved in some ways. He still has the same answer to their dilemna, but reacts differently when Ennis puts the damper on his ideas.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #161 on:** Apr 23, 2007, 09:16 PM »

So let see what are they? we're married, Rich and Earl, Let's convince Alma you and Lureen adopt the girls, child support, how many was that? Did I forget any? And if Jack would have lived, we'd still be counting. Who could blame Jack for getting angry.

tpe · « **Reply #162 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 07:14 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Apr 23, 2007, 07:16 PM

I find it interesting to wqtch Jack's face the first time he tells Ennis they should live together and is refused and then when they are in bed in the motel and, again, Ennis refuses. Then -- in their last scene together, when Jack says "We could have had it all". There seem to be subtle changes. The first time, Jack is hurt, it seems to me. The second time, he is plain old frustrated, and the last time he is madder than hell. He has evolved in some ways. He still has the same answer to their dilemna, but reacts differently when Ennis puts the damper on his ideas.

I also sense a look of resignation in the last look -- it is as if jack realized that the opportunity had passed, and recriminations no longer mattered that much. I think he simply did it in the hope to make Ennis realize where his self-imposed isolation and increasing withdrawal was leading him. It was probably an act of desperation, but I suspect that he also understood that at that point, neither of them had that much to lose.

tpe · « **Reply #163 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 07:22 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Apr 23, 2007, 09:16 PM

So let see what are they? we're married, Rich and Earl, Let's convince Alma you and Lureen adopt the girls, child support, how many was that? Did I forget any? And if Jack would have lived, we'd still be counting. Who could blame Jack for getting angry.

I suspect that Jack understood the deeper fears behind all of Ennis's "excuses" over the years. Not that Ennis's reasons were invalid -- they were probably quite realistic. But Jack did seem to see through them and understood that in the end, Ennis was capable of overriding them IF ONLY he were to conquer his own fears.

I think this was what kept Jack going, in spite of all the frustration...

This was a case where Jack's understanding of Ennis only caused him greater suffering.

welshwitch · « **Reply #164 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 01:00 PM »

And if you're in love you can't help yourself, even when you see the other person involved not as you once did but as flawed and unreasonable. Both of them kept coming back, because they had something together that neither had alone, but in the end the excuses and the pressure became too much to stand. In that last scene they were more honest about their own needs and wants, and their reaction to the other, than they had been before, and as a result saw each other differently after years of re-enacting, or trying to, that first summer in an attempt to do what Shakespeare said you couldnt - call back yesterday.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #165 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 06:42 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Apr 24, 2007, 01:00 PM

And if you're in love you can't help yourself, even when you see the other person involved not as you once did but as flawed and unreasonable. Both of them kept coming back, because they had something together that neither had alone, but in the end the excuses and the pressure became too much to stand. In that last scene they were more honest about their own needs and wants, and their reaction to the other, than they had been before, and as a result saw ach other differently after years of re-enacting, or trying to, that first summer in an attempt to do what shakespeare said you couldnt - call back yesterday.

And in the film, the "dozy embrace", speaks directly to what WW, was speaking of, the reaching back for something, but never verbalized, as Jack watched Ennis drive off for the last time.

tpe · « **Reply #166 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 06:51 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Apr 25, 2007, 06:42 AM

And in the film, the "dozy embrace", speaks directly to what WW, was speaking of, the reaching back for something, but never verbalized, as Jack watched Ennis drive off for the last time.

Beautifully said, manhattangirl. And thanks WW.

I think the "Dozy Embrace" was the closest they got (in Jack's mind) at a serene and wordless understanding. No conditions. No fears.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #167 on:** Apr 30, 2007, 06:07 AM »

Jack was indeed "reaching back " into tje past to try and recapture a mood, a feeling that once was. And what a remembrance it was for him. It is a tradgedy that this Ennis in the dozy embrace is the one Jack knows is capable of being at *peace *with himself and what was going on at that moment between them. It was a sweet moment in contrast with the reality of the Ennis in that last meeting. There was still possibilties and an innocent hope during that time, as we can clearly see the love displayed openly in both their eyes. So close but yet so far. Jack had always feared loosing Ennis if he demanded anything, due to a low startle point. Ennis's reaction to this confrontation must have confirmed this fact for Jack as Ennis drove away.Apparently though despite Mexico,"all them things he did'nt know " and "the rest" of Jack's secrets did'nt stop Ennis from wanting to meet Jack again at Pine Creek, He loved him and was'nt ready to let Jack go yet evidenced by the postcard he sent asking to meet him again . By then it was too late.... I just hate that Jack had to die when he did because personally I think Ennis was gonna make a big decision to agree to live with Jack. Jack was'nt gonna keep up the status quo and Ennis obviously could'nt live without him.

tpe · « **Reply #168 on:** Apr 30, 2007, 08:31 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Apr 30, 2007, 06:07 AM

Jack was indeed "reaching back " into tje past to try and recapture a mood, a feeling that once was. And what a remembrance it was for him. It is a tradgedy that this Ennis in the dozy embrace is the one Jack knows is capable of being at *peace *with himself and what was going on at that moment between them. It was a sweet moment in contrast with the reality of the Ennis in that last meeting. There was still possibilties and an innocent hope during that time, as we can clearly see the love displayed openly in both their eyes. So close but yet so far. Jack had always feared loosing Ennis if he demanded anything, due to a low startle point. Ennis's reaction to this confrontation must have confirmed this fact for Jack as Ennis drove away.Apparently though despite Mexico,"all them things he did'nt know " and "the rest" of Jack's secrets did'nt stop Ennis from wanting to meet Jack again at Pine Creek, He loved him and was'nt ready to let Jack go yet evidenced by the postcard he sent asking to meet him again . By then it was too late.... I just hate that Jack had to die when he did because personally I think Ennis was gonna make a big decision to agree to live with Jack. Jack was'nt gonna keep up the status quo and Ennis obviously could'nt live without him.

Yes, I think what Jack loved about the Dozy Embrace was that Ennis was in equilibrium. More than anything else, I think Jack wanted Ennis to be at peace with himself and with his love for Jack. This was part of his vision of a sweet life -- which would have been the ultimate acknowledgement on Ennis's part of the love he felt for Jack.

Even during the last painful confrontation, I think a great deal of Jack's love was predicated on Ennis being at peace with himlself. That was why Jack could not bear to see Ennis crumble before his eyes in their last meeting. THat was perhaps why Jack started to think that, for Ennis's sake, he should move on...

welshwitch · « **Reply #169 on:** Apr 30, 2007, 10:27 AM »

It may also be true that Ennis had always been the strong silent one, only when he broke down in front of Jack did Jack fully realise the toll the relationship was taking on Ennis as well as on himself.

tpe · « **Reply #170 on:** May 01, 2007, 07:49 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Apr 30, 2007, 10:27 AM

It may also be true that Ennis had always been the strong silent one, only when he broke down in front of Jack did Jack fully realise the toll the relationship was taking on Ennis as well as on himself.

Precisely! Jack probably did not realize until that last confrontation how much Ennis was also suffering inside. Jack had missed this. And it probably caught him off-guard.

welshwitch · « **Reply #171 on:** May 01, 2007, 01:48 PM »

By which point each of them saw the other as they never quite had before, equally deeply affected by the frustrations and stresses, equally unhappy and trapped.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #172 on:** May 02, 2007, 06:07 AM »

IMO:

Isn't through great pain, that a greater understanding is established. Not until then did the other knew how it really was for the other, and from that point on they saw how much they really did love each other.

tpe · « **Reply #173 on:** May 02, 2007, 06:59 AM »

I am sure Ennis's breaking down also helped him understand himself more -- as much as it probably helped Jack understand that Ennis was also going through a lot of pain and frustration. You are correct, in that they each saw how important that love was for both of them.

welshwitch · « **Reply #174 on:** May 02, 2007, 11:00 AM »

But nevertheless Ennis drove away.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #175 on:** May 02, 2007, 06:42 PM »

That's the killing part about it. The love was there, the need for one another was there, and yet their positions, and their positions alone kept them apart. To me, they capsulized themselves up on that mountain figthing their own war. Jack was taken away, Ennis didn't know till then what he meant to Jack. What he meant to Jack, Ennis was indeed loved.

When Jack's mother put her hand on Ennis's shoulder, and invited him to go to Jack's bedroom, that was the first time he must have felt that someone understood, and taken pity on him. The shirts confirmed it all, Ennis was loved, and wanted, from that first day in '63 up until Jack's death, but his fear, living an existence void of the love and peace he had with Jack when they weren't together and insistence of long separations from his lover, clouded his understanding of what he had, this is and was the tragedy.

It didn't have to be that way. IMO.

tpe · « **Reply #176 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:32 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on May 02, 2007, 11:00 AM

But nevertheless Ennis drove away.

He really couldn't have done otherwise. Even in the scene with Cassie tyhat followed, he was still visibly wrestling with the revelation.

tpe · « **Reply #177 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:34 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on May 02, 2007, 06:42 PM

It didn't have to be that way. IMO.

But because it was that way: that makes this story so great and so moving.

The reaslization of love can sometimes come with the realization that it could never be.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #178 on:** May 07, 2007, 05:53 AM »

Once again I am struck by these very enlightening posts! I am totally fascinated by this character of Ennis. He is indeed a very complicated and compelling individual.. I have tried to look at him through Jack;s eyes to see what and how he saw this man he came to love as well as through Ennis's eyes to try and see the way he sees himself and his relation to how he saw Jack and I say I am even more fascinated at what I find. They both experience a life altering sexual awakening one summer on BBM. One (Jack) embraces the possibilties and dreams of a continued life in harmony and expressed love. The other definitly touched , but fearful of what will become of them if they fully realized that love. Both knowing this undeniable passion for each other exists, they both marry, have children and try the *straight and narrow* path to redemption..from what they both knew happened on BB. Jack proceeds to fall into a pattern of carefully laid out rules and gets to see Ennis twice, maybe 3 times a year for say a week at a time each. How could they possibly get to really know each other when they know the short time together will come so soon?. Yeah, Jack knew Ennis very well but I think a little bit was lost each time they parted all those years. Yes, Ennis showed up to meet Jack without a second thought when the times came, but like Jack said between jobs, roundups, lack of funds,etc. there was" never enough time ,never enough." He was feeling forgotten and second best to everything else in Ennis's life. Unappreciated . I beleive they both added to their fates when they married and all these other *things* came into their picture. Responsibilty for family imo greatly influenced the direction and seemed to provide in Ennis's case excuses to deny more time with Jack who finally came to the conclusion that as long as he loved Ennis it would have to be a "hidden love " out in the middle of nowhere every now and then. ,This eventually became unacceptable to Jack and found himself seeing his lover by appointment status, like trying to see the pope. More rejection, more excuses , more withdrawing of time from each other. Paranoia and fear of discovery by Ennis pushing Jack further away...until Jack has had enough. The mariages became traps for both of them and failed in their mission to *cure* this strong desire for each other so what did either gain from marriage except the precious children. IMO It was a mistake on both their parts to get tied down in loveless marriages. I personally feel they'd of had a better chance without the extra baggage and the drama. They did'nt need this.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #179 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:33 AM »

The power of Ennis. When Ennis got divorced who shut the door on that one when Jack went hopeful and happy that this was it, Ennis is divorced, and Ennis wrote him and told him. Why did Ennis write Jack about his divorce?

How ironic Jack stayed marry till his death, and Ennis was divorced. The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that Ennis powers over Jack was great.

Jack stayed married, not because of scandal of divorce, or money or his son, it was not that simple. I think he stayed married because Ennis wanted it that way, and thats why Jack never divorced. I know this may not be new to a lot of you.

Jack lived his life according to Ennis. And that's a heck of a way to live, and love is a powerful thing.

You're right Ainfoolin Ennis is complicated and compelling.