Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[tpe]

I think Ennis envied Jack's ability to keep his family life "under control", so to speak.  This is consistent with Ennis's question regarding normality.

I suspect that Jack withheld his true feelings about the state of his marriage up until the last meeting, when he had to admit that a great distance/indifference existed between him and Lureen.  Even then, I think Jack exercised greater restraint in all his affairs, making sure he did not rock the boat in certain quarters.  I think Ennis saw this and envied Jack. 

[zephK]

I suspect that Jack understood the deeper fears behind all of Ennis's "excuses" over the years.  Not that Ennis's reasons were invalid -- they were probably quite realistic.  But Jack did seem to see through them and understood that in the end, Ennis was capable of overriding them IF ONLY he were to conquer his own fears.

I think this was what kept Jack going, in spite of all the frustration...

This was a case where Jack's understanding of Ennis only caused him greater suffering.

 

  I could well be wrong, but it seems to me that Ennis denies Jack only one thing in their entire time together, and that's them living together.  Who could blame him?  He know what happens to two men who "ranch up" together - one of them gets killed by his neighbors, from out of the blue.  And that's not just killed, but sadistically tortured, pulled around from the back of a pickup truck by his "maleness" until it's pulled off!  And this had to have been done by his churchgoing, otherwise normal, friendly neighbors, and he thinks his Dad was in on it!  That's horrifying to me, and I'm way beyond 9 years old.  I wonder if Earl was still alive when his nose came off his face?  That would put a crimp in any man's plans to live with the man he loves.  I think he denied Jack what Jack wanted most because he could see no way to live together and keep them both alive and whole.  IMO he didn't live with Jack the better to protect him.

[tpe]

  I could well be wrong, but it seems to me that Ennis denies Jack only one thing in their entire time together, and that's them living together.  Who could blame him?  He know what happens to two men who "ranch up" together - one of them gets killed by his neighbors, from out of the blue.  And that's not just killed, but sadistically tortured, pulled around from the back of a pickup truck by his "maleness" until it's pulled off!  And this had to have been done by his churchgoing, otherwise normal, friendly neighbors, and he thinks his Dad was in on it!  That's horrifying to me, and I'm way beyond 9 years old.  I wonder if Earl was still alive when his nose came off his face?  That would put a crimp in any man's plans to live with the man he loves.  I think he denied Jack what Jack wanted most because he could see no way to live together and keep them both alive and whole.  IMO he didn't live with Jack the better to protect him.

But this is the common trap many of us still fall into, no?  Out of fear, we resign ourself to living half-lives.

There are worse things than death.  The fate of Earl and Rich is indeed fearful, but perhaps we, like Ennis, forget that they at least were able to live life as they wanted to.   Perhaps they were better off than Ennis and Jack.  Both Earl and Rich and Ennis and Jack had similar fates in the end (i.e., the cruel death of one and the bleak loneliness of the other), but I would think that at least Earl and Rich got to live a life of love.

 

[jakesgirl]

its obvious that jack loved ennis, and i think ennis loved jack just as much maybe more.   jack was in more danger without ennis, because he went looking for what he needed.  if they had been together jack wouldn't have had to go look for it somewhere else, and they could have protected each other.  i think that if ennis dad hadnt done what he did then maybe things would have been different, i think they should have been together because they deserved happiness and besides if something did happen to one of them at least there wouldn't be any regrets they would have had that sweet life.

[welshwitch]

I think by the end Jack had come to see Ennis as an obstacle and Ennis saw Jack as a problem, someone who made the same demands over and over again though he could never meet them.

[aintfoolin]

"Tis better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all. " I beleive this and I agree that they were much more safer together. Jack's death, I believe was a result of being  out there alone and not with Ennis living his dream. Had Ennis been with Jack, he would not have stood by and let this awful death occur like it did. I doubt that Ennis  would have  allowed Jack to end up out in the middle of nowhere with 3 or 4 huge guys after what he'd seen as a child. I really would hope that this was one (if the main regret) that Ennis had. That he could've been there to save him. Jack's love for Ennis was teaching Ennis that first understanding the obstacles and problems they had. It is a long process working through them all, in this case but I find it ironic that even after his knowledge of Jack's Mexico daliances, Ennis still sent the postcard, wanting to meet Jack again at Pine Creek.  Surely he knew after what Jack had said at that last meeting would make the status quo obsolete. Personally, I think Ennis was gonna cave in ( with some conditions of course)  but acceptable to Jack.  Perhaps Ennis realized that at least these " tough old birds" as he puts it , had  what seems to be a long life together before Earl was murderd.  there is a remedy for  homophobes kicking their door down in the middle of the night. It's called a shotgun. Everyone has the God givin right to defend themselves against  bodily harm.  Ray and Earl were older than these two, and most likely got caught off guard. I think Ennis was still just a work in progress, but he was learning. As far as I'm concerned Ennis showed his true colors in the reunion scene. He had been there, done that ,as far as his realization of not having Jack around with him. He knows how much he missed him and wanted him. I don't believe Ennis would've made the same mistake twice. He just could'nt stand the status quo anymore. Neither coud Jack. My thoughts.

[tpe]

its obvious that jack loved ennis, and i think ennis loved jack just as much maybe more.   jack was in more danger without ennis, because he went looking for what he needed.  if they had been together jack wouldn't have had to go look for it somewhere else, and they could have protected each other.  i think that if ennis dad hadnt done what he did then maybe things would have been different, i think they should have been together because they deserved happiness and besides if something did happen to one of them at least there wouldn't be any regrets they would have had that sweet life.

I personally think that both of them needed each other equally; the difference is that Jack openly lived his pain, whereas Ennis tried to keep things pent up inside of him.  Ennis's stoicism can therefore be looked upon as a facade, by which he sought to bury the inner torment that consumed him.

"because he went looking for what he needed" -- this certainly defines the difference between Jack and Ennis, but it no way negates the intrinsic dependence of one on the other, unacknowledged or not.

The way they saw each other can therefore be linked to the way they saw themselves vis-a-vis with the other.  As Jack saw it, it was necessary to live openly their love in order to fulfill it.  For Ennis, it was imperative to hide that love in order to protect it.  The way each saw the other was shaped according to these individual views.

[tpe]

"Tis better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all. " I beleive this and I agree that they were much more safer together. Jack's death, I believe was a result of being  out there alone and not with Ennis living his dream. Had Ennis been with Jack, he would not have stood by and let this awful death occur like it did. I doubt that Ennis  would have  allowed Jack to end up out in the middle of nowhere with 3 or 4 huge guys after what he'd seen as a child. I really would hope that this was one (if the main regret) that Ennis had. That he could've been there to save him. Jack's love for Ennis was teaching Ennis that first understanding the obstacles and problems they had. It is a long process working through them all, in this case but I find it ironic that even after his knowledge of Jack's Mexico daliances, Ennis still sent the postcard, wanting to meet Jack again at Pine Creek.  Surely he knew after what Jack had said at that last meeting would make the status quo obsolete. Personally, I think Ennis was gonna cave in ( with some conditions of course)  but acceptable to Jack.  Perhaps Ennis realized that at least these " tough old birds" as he puts it , had  what seems to be a long life together before Earl was murderd.  there is a remedy for  homophobes kicking their door down in the middle of the night. It's called a shotgun. Everyone has the God givin right to defend themselves against  bodily harm.  Ray and Earl were older than these two, and most likely got caught off guard. I think Ennis was still just a work in progress, but he was learning. As far as I'm concerned Ennis showed his true colors in the reunion scene. He had been there, done that ,as far as his realization of not having Jack around with him. He knows how much he missed him and wanted him. I don't believe Ennis would've made the same mistake twice. He just could'nt stand the status quo anymore. Neither coud Jack. My thoughts.

aintfoolin, you echo edgar's thoughts here: that perhaps Ennis felt somehow responsible for Jack's death.

We can look at Ennis's behavior as a way in which he thought he could protect Jack and their love for each other.  This way of nurturing by suppression may seem strange to many of us (and even to Jack, most likely), but it was probably the only way Ennis thought feasible in a society that was "out to get them".   Jack's death may certainly have made Ennis feel guilty, in the sense that he was unable to keep Jack in line with the startegy of survival.  But he was barely able to keep himself in line, given how much he was suffering inside. 

The paradox of Ennis is this: how could one let something grow by suppressing it?  And by letting it grow, will one inevitably kill it?

[zephK]

But this is the common trap many of us still fall into, no?  Out of fear, we resign ourself to living half-lives.

There are worse things than death.  The fate of Earl and Rich is indeed fearful, but perhaps we, like Ennis, forget that they at least were able to live life as they wanted to.   Perhaps they were better off than Ennis and Jack.  Both Earl and Rich and Ennis and Jack had similar fates in the end (i.e., the cruel death of one and the bleak loneliness of the other), but I would think that at least Earl and Rich got to live a life of love.

 

  Perhaps so, but remember Ennis was only 9 when his Dad took him to get a good look at a human being who was tortured and then left, dead or dying, outside on the ground like garbage, and this was someone known to little Ennis, a local farmer he'd at least seen in town.  He knew Earl well enough to recognize him and know his name.  That's a trauma that will definitely shut down some on-ramps to the freeway of life for you, even as an adult.
  From what I saw of the movie (so many times I have no idea how many), they had lots of love to share most of the time they were together.  Jack just didn't want to be with Ennis for just a few weeks a year.  They could have moved, except for Ennis's kids - he didn't want to leave them.  (Even though he stopped seeing them regularly after Thanksgiving, he knew they'd come around, or at least that's what we're told he thinks.)
  Both being raised in such a homophobic society, they couldn't help being homophobic themselves, and as such didn't even have the words to discuss their own situation with one another. 

[aintfoolin]

And therein lies the problem. Neither were great communucators. It is essential to tell one another their thoughts  from the beginning. what was happening to them was not discussed in anyway.  Sadly their culture was a barrier to this. + they were only 19 years old, men, yet still very much just boys. As actions took place, nothing was said. How could either know where they were at when it's not talked about? Yes there was plenty of expression physically, but it had to come to what transpired in the last confrontation . when Jack was already at his wits end and out of patience, asuumptions, and apparently will. So was Ennis. This "thing had them by the short hairs, but with Lureen and Alma they communicated to them enough to marry them and go  on to have children. What's the difference? it's just plain speach that's all.  What did they owe their these women that they did'nt owe themselves?Perhaps this also is a product of upbringing. Jack's father appeared very stoic to me. Unlikely to to understand or embrace any real emotion, even from his wife and she just withstood him all the years , sex , only tolerated for bearing offspring and never for just pleasure. Even Jack and Ennis enjoyed sex for the pleasure of it unlike their parents, but SOMEONE should have have started a dialogue about what they were experiencing.  Just an acknowledgement that they DID'NT know why they felt this way, or a simple " I like doing this with you" even woud have sufficed. It would have led to more communication and a better undrstanding of each other from the start. This baffles me.

[tpe]

  Perhaps so, but remember Ennis was only 9 when his Dad took him to get a good look at a human being who was tortured and then left, dead or dying, outside on the ground like garbage, and this was someone known to little Ennis, a local farmer he'd at least seen in town.  He knew Earl well enough to recognize him and know his name.  That's a trauma that will definitely shut down some on-ramps to the freeway of life for you, even as an adult.
  From what I saw of the movie (so many times I have no idea how many), they had lots of love to share most of the time they were together.  Jack just didn't want to be with Ennis for just a few weeks a year.  They could have moved, except for Ennis's kids - he didn't want to leave them.  (Even though he stopped seeing them regularly after Thanksgiving, he knew they'd come around, or at least that's what we're told he thinks.)
  Both being raised in such a homophobic society, they couldn't help being homophobic themselves, and as such didn't even have the words to discuss their own situation with one another. 

The trauma that Ennis experienced from the experience is beyond question.  But what is questioned is whether he was better off in the end succumbing to those fears. 

In the end, what Ennis thought would protect himself and Jack from a hostile world would drive Jack to try to move on.  That Jack died in the process only made it more tragic for Ennis, because it made him realize that we all live on borrowed time anyway. 

I think Ennis did come to a realization of what he missed and what he will never have again.  It is a tragedy greater than that of Earl and Rich.  At least Rich had a life of love in remembrance of Earl. Ennis had no such consolation.

Ennis tried to protect the love the way he thought it stood the best chance of survival against a hostile world.  But it also blinded him to the possibility that love is best lived, even if against a hostile world.

In the end, Ennis did things the way Jack saw it. Ironically, it was Jack's death that made this possible.

[zephK]

  You know, I absolutely understand what you're saying, except for one major thing:  I don't think that Ennis had any choice in the matter.  I mean, I sincerely doubt he sat down, ever, and said is there a way we could be better off?  That trauma was so severe that it actually limited the growth of his personality, to the extent that he didn't like "thinking," or at least what he meant by "thinking" - "You're a real 'thinker,' Jack Twist," is said as if it were an accusation.  The real trauma of this horror deprived him, in many ways, from developing past certain ideas he held as a 9 yr old. 
  If you doubt this, the next time you watch, listen carefully to his conversation with Cassie in the bus terminal.  He has made up his mind by this point, in fact made it up the night before the fight, that he was going to dump her.  Just look at the expression on his face that night as he looks at Jack - he has openly got it for Jack from that moment on, and Jack doesn't get it!  (Remember, these guys started out each agreeing that "I ain't queer." That's the 'contract' that let them continue to have sex on the Mountain, and they believed each other's lie, and it's that lie that stays in their way for 20 years.) 
  "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," is a revelation to Ennis and the death knell for any further doings with Cassie, and this is why he is such a mess, poking around those poor little apples from his pie: he has already come to grips with his and Jack's reality and is anxious about seeing Jack again {the postcard has been sent} before Cassie comes into the terminal.  This is the reason he hasn't been contacting her the way she wanted - "You must a got all them notes...,"and the reason he looks so anguished and confused - he really isn't sure how Jack will take this revelation.  But his answers to her pain are not the answers of an understanding adult, or even of a weaselly adult, but just imagine a kid saying them - they fit a kid's way of responding to a scolding.  Even when he tries to take some of the blame for her pain, "I probably wasn't much fun anyway, was I?" it's a kid's answer, and is also why he is so totally floored when she says, "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun."  This is the first moment in his life when he finally understands that love isn't just the fun that he has with Jack, it's his pain,and it's Jack's pain, and the knowledge that Jack still tries to comfort him in his pain, too.  You can practically see him understanding this, looking into the future where he can tell Jack he loves him.  This is why Cassie is actually so vitally important in the film - she is the first (and only) person in his life who gives him any clue as to what love is.  This is also why I doubled up with that gut punch of "deceased" in the very next scene - Ennis finally knows, but doesn't get the chance to say.           :\'(

[welshwitch]

I think Ennis has the common working/practical man's reaction to thinking - not what he does, or wants to do, and something to be mocked in others. Thinking would mean he'd have to question his own nature and confront his demons, and he's not about to do that.

[zephK]

  And everything that put him where he is is just another brick in the wall.  "Did it have to be so high?"

[lamusica]

ZephK, I think you're right on.  Ennis was not a thinking man and never became one during the course of the movie.  I agree that, to Ennis, thinking was wasting time.  It was akin to dreaming, to wasting time and effort on something that would never be reality.  Ennis didn't do that.
That is probably why he never went along with Jack's plans.  Ennis didn't believe in the possibilities that Jack saw as future realities.  I think we all take one side or another -- either we are dreamers, or we reject dreams and stick with reality.  Not once in the ss or the movie does Ennis ever mention what COULD HAVE BEEN.  The closest he came to it was predicting his own doom if he took the job on the telephone line and got electrocuted.  That's where dreams ( plans, thinking) led you, according to the law of Ennis.

[jackster]

Ennis was not a thinking man and never became one during the course of the movie.  I agree that, to Ennis, thinking was wasting time. . . . Not once in the ss or the movie does Ennis ever mention what COULD HAVE BEEN.

lamusica:  I think I see your point here, but IMHO Ennis does make a transformation from reality to dreamer (albeit too late). I believe it begins in Jacks closet when he clutches the shirts and suddenly “sees” what truely was and what might have been. The fact that he’s made this emotional, maybe spiritual, leap is reinforced later by his “Jack I swear” where he’s projecting (thinking) himself and Jack into the, now impossible, future.

To me this is what makes Ennis so endearing as an individual and as metaphor for mankind in general, and the tragedy of BBM so great. He makes this transition from reality to dreamer, but of course too late. Now he is left with ONLY his dreams, the reality to which he desperately clung has evaporated.

[lamusica]

A point well made, jackster.  When Ennis finally realizes that perhaps Jack's dreams could have come true if he had gone along with him, it is way too late.  While Ennis is sad about this, and sorry that he hadn't made some other choices in his relationship with Jack, I still don't think Ennis became a dreamer himself, even that late in the game.  He came to respect Jack's dreams, but he didn't have any for himself that I could see. Ennis's future looked pretty bleak to me.  I didn't see any evidence that perhaps he would now try to make a change in his own life and actively do something to make himself different, or happier.  He DID decide to go to his daughter's wedding, so we know he loved her and wanted her to know that.  But, do you think he really was going to change in some way -- follow some sort of dream into the future?

[jackster]

But, do you think he really was going to change in some way -- follow some sort of dream into the future?

Yeah, I guess I do. I see the "shrine" (or memorial) of shirts and postcard he erected in his closet as the indicator of this. People all over the world build shrines generally in recognition of something larger than themselves. An idea or supernatural spirit that moves them or guides them. They are most frequently just small and personal. For Ennis to erect this simple, but totally non-utilitarian, construct, is to me evidence he's started on his own journey of self-discovery.

No, it's not going to be earthshaking, he's not moving to Denver or some other major shift in his material life, but I do think he's made a shift in his spiritual life. This is what Jack showed him and left with him. 

"yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."

Jack speaks to him about the past and, I believe, the future in guiding him and his decisions. He's still Ennis, and will always be Ennis, living what many of us would see as a bleak life, but he's not the same, he sees the world through new eyes. I feel one of the reasons we see Ennis cry so many times is to show his inner self struggling to get out of his hard shell. It's there, he just won't let it show itself. In this shrine he lets it out, it's still in his closet, but it's out from inside him now and he can begin to grow.

There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe.

He's trying.

[tpe]

  You know, I absolutely understand what you're saying, except for one major thing:  I don't think that Ennis had any choice in the matter.  I mean, I sincerely doubt he sat down, ever, and said is there a way we could be better off?  That trauma was so severe that it actually limited the growth of his personality, to the extent that he didn't like "thinking," or at least what he meant by "thinking" - "You're a real 'thinker,' Jack Twist," is said as if it were an accusation.  The real trauma of this horror deprived him, in many ways, from developing past certain ideas he held as a 9 yr old. 

Although the trauma was indeed severe, I think it did not preclude the ability to make the choice.  That this is true is inherent in his ability to respond sexually and emotionally to Jack, in spite of this trauma.

Ennis did make choices in this direction: from the FNIT to the reunion.  It was a matter of not making choices; it was a matter of going on to the next level.

  If you doubt this, the next time you watch, listen carefully to his conversation with Cassie in the bus terminal.  He has made up his mind by this point, in fact made it up the night before the fight, that he was going to dump her.  Just look at the expression on his face that night as he looks at Jack - he has openly got it for Jack from that moment on, and Jack doesn't get it!  (Remember, these guys started out each agreeing that "I ain't queer." That's the 'contract' that let them continue to have sex on the Mountain, and they believed each other's lie, and it's that lie that stays in their way for 20 years.) 
  "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," is a revelation to Ennis and the death knell for any further doings with Cassie, and this is why he is such a mess, poking around those poor little apples from his pie: he has already come to grips with his and Jack's reality and is anxious about seeing Jack again {the postcard has been sent} before Cassie comes into the terminal.  This is the reason he hasn't been contacting her the way she wanted - "You must a got all them notes...,"and the reason he looks so anguished and confused - he really isn't sure how Jack will take this revelation.  But his answers to her pain are not the answers of an understanding adult, or even of a weaselly adult, but just imagine a kid saying them - they fit a kid's way of responding to a scolding.  Even when he tries to take some of the blame for her pain, "I probably wasn't much fun anyway, was I?" it's a kid's answer, and is also why he is so totally floored when she says, "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun."  This is the first moment in his life when he finally understands that love isn't just the fun that he has with Jack, it's his pain,and it's Jack's pain, and the knowledge that Jack still tries to comfort him in his pain, too.  You can practically see him understanding this, looking into the future where he can tell Jack he loves him.  This is why Cassie is actually so vitally important in the film - she is the first (and only) person in his life who gives him any clue as to what love is.  This is also why I doubled up with that gut punch of "deceased" in the very next scene - Ennis finally knows, but doesn't get the chance to say.           :\'(

Interesting thought, zephK.  Personally, I had thought that Ennis already had some idea before the confrontation scene with Jack that it would be for the best that he disentangle himself from Cassie.  The image of Alma and his failed marraiage loomed large.  But then again, some members had noted that the scene at the grayhound station may have most likely occurred sometime after the final confrontation, so it is also possible that the last meeting with Jack solidified Ennis's resolve to break all intimacy with Cassie.

 

[lamusica]

Yeah, I guess I do. I see the "shrine" (or memorial) of shirts and postcard he erected in his closet as the indicator of this. People all over the world build shrines generally in recognition of something larger than themselves. An idea or supernatural spirit that moves them or guides them. They are most frequently just small and personal. For Ennis to erect this simple, but totally non-utilitarian, construct, is to me evidence he's started on his own journey of self-discovery.

No, it's not going to be earthshaking, he's not moving to Denver or some other major shift in his material life, but I do think he's made a shift in his spiritual life. This is what Jack showed him and left with him. 

"yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."

Jack speaks to him about the past and, I believe, the future in guiding him and his decisions. He's still Ennis, and will always be Ennis, living what many of us would see as a bleak life, but he's not the same, he sees the world through new eyes. I feel one of the reasons we see Ennis cry so many times is to show his inner self struggling to get out of his hard shell. It's there, he just won't let it show itself. In this shrine he lets it out, it's still in his closet, but it's out from inside him now and he can begin to grow.

There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe.

He's trying.

Absolutely beautifully stated, jackster, and you have me thinking..  I may have to agree with you since you present such a potent argument for subtle changes within Ennis.  I do believe you are onto something!

[zephK]

Interesting thought, zephK.  Personally, I had thought that Ennis already had some idea before the confrontation scene with Jack that it would be for the best that he disentangle himself from Cassie.  The image of Alma and his failed marriage loomed large.  But then again, some members had noted that the scene at the grayhound station may have most likely occurred sometime after the final confrontation, so it is also possible that the last meeting with Jack solidified Ennis's resolve to break all intimacy with Cassie.

 

  At the last campfire, Jack asks Ennis how come he hasn't got a woman yet.  Ennis talks a little bit about Cassie, effectively introducing her to Jack while saying that he does see this girl, but is really not interested in her.  Ennis then asks Jack about his ongoing relationship with Lureen.  Jack says he might as well phone their sex life in, and in the next breath tells Ennis that it doesn't matter because Ennis is the one he misses most in his life.
   Look at Ennis's eyes in campfire light right after Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it."  I can see the door marked "Cassie" being shut, locked and the key pitched down the mountain.  They are so close, in this one moment after 16 years of 2 or 3 "fishing trips" a year, to identifying each other honestly, at last, as lovers.  They are so very near happiness, so close...   :\'(

[jackster]

   Look at Ennis's eyes in campfire light right after Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it."  I can see the door marked "Cassie" being shut, locked and the key pitched down the mountain.  They are so close, in this one moment after 16 years of 2 or 3 "fishing trips" a year, to identifying each other honestly, at last, as lovers.  They are so very near happiness, so close...

zephK- Again I think you have really hit the tone of this scene incredibly well in your reading of it. I mentioned in a previous post that in an early screenplay following Jack's ". . . I miss you so bad . . ."  statement Ennis responds "I know what you mean". This line was either edited from the final script or not included in the film by Ang possibly because he felt Ennis' face told the whole story just as you so artfully described here.

[zephK]

 Thank you Jackster.  The next time we see Ennis's eyes with a similar expression is in the terminal with Cassie.  (I'd heard irony was dead, but Ennis and Cassie's last meeting in a "terminal?"    )  Without her, there is no one who tells Ennis anything about love.  Without Cassie, there is no one to say, "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun."  Again, Ennis snaps the information right up, realizes that the pain he's feeling is just like Cassie's and dammit, she's told him what it is!  And without speaking about it, Ennis finally but quickly jumps to the real life version of the game: he understands at last that he and Jack are lovers, and have been all along...he hopes Jack didn't really quit him for good, that he'll get a chance somehow to tell his Bud he loves him, and it's gonna be OK.  He's gotta come back, he's gotta, and when he does, I'm gonna... 

 I think when Mr. Ledger is 65 and somebody tosses a gold wristwatch at him at the "lifetime achievement" award presentation, it will really be for Brokeback, but it will not make up for the lunacy of not awarding one of the most impressive screen presentations ever in a more timely fashion.  Nor will that award clean up the  tarnish AMPAS did to its statuette and its reputation by not awarding it to him in 2006.  That's also why they call prescriptions OFD - Old Folks Dope.   

[jackster]

OT – Without rehashing much well-worn grief, let’s say we see totally eye-to-eye re: Mr. HL. After umpteen screenings I’m still in awe of his Ennis. It is, in a word, – Flawless. Jake’s eye’s are wonderfully full of emotion, but Heath let’s you see into his (Ennis') soul through his eyes, like they were windows.
Re: AMPAS – Hitchcock, one of the very greatest, was similarly shunned – never got a single one, HL’s in the best of company.


I can't believe they won't allow H-I-T-C-H-C-O-C-K !!

[zephK]

Exactly!    Jackster!

It goes to the old saying - "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't shoot people for stupidity."

   or something like that...



   No Hitchcock?  Somebody needs to be crucified to make up for that lunacy.  Any clue why he was never recognized?  (*Where might I find out, he whispered, suddenly aware that he had lost the T in OT, but found it.*)

[tpe]

  At the last campfire, Jack asks Ennis how come he hasn't got a woman yet.  Ennis talks a little bit about Cassie, effectively introducing her to Jack while saying that he does see this girl, but is really not interested in her.  Ennis then asks Jack about his ongoing relationship with Lureen.  Jack says he might as well phone their sex life in, and in the next breath tells Ennis that it doesn't matter because Ennis is the one he misses most in his life.
   Look at Ennis's eyes in campfire light right after Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it."  I can see the door marked "Cassie" being shut, locked and the key pitched down the mountain.  They are so close, in this one moment after 16 years of 2 or 3 "fishing trips" a year, to identifying each other honestly, at last, as lovers.  They are so very near happiness, so close...   :\'(

It does seem clear that Ennis was not keen on the relationship with Cassie during this scene, and it is plausible that Ennis had already made up his mind about Cassie before meeting with Jack.

Jack's question and Ennis's counter-question do reveal something about the way each of them saw the other: each "expected" the other to have relationships with women, but understanding implicitly where their true love lay.  It was an interesting exchange because it revealed this aspect of their relationship, and I had wondered if there was a hint of jealousy underlying the inquisitiveness.  Jack's final response "Sometimes I miss you so much..." cuts through all the obfuscation; this is why it moves us so.

[zephK]

  The thing in this scene that really gets to me though is that after all their time together, Jack can't even say, "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," he feels that it's necessary to soften the the impact of revealing his deep feelings for Ennis by qualifying it with, "Sometimes."

[welshwitch]

I think the Cassie relationship was driven by her - she picked him up, got him to dance, got him to massage her feet. Ennis just allowed himself to go along, because in reality he didn't take seriously the prospect of another woman in his life. When she starts pushing too hard, he simply abandons her. He sees himself in the relationship he has with Jack and assumes it will continue, otherwise why would he have sent that last postcard? And he assumes that despite what passed between them the last time they met, Jack will still come when he calls. He places a lot of reliance on  his pull on Jack and Jack's inability to resist it. In a sense I think both he and Jack see the other as a kind of magnetic pole to which he is inextricably linked.

[aintfoolin]

Yep, even at this stage, Jack is still fearful of loosing Ennis at this point. It's not just "sometimes" it's every time he goes back to Texas. Back to his *half life with Lureen and Randall. The look on Jack's face as they pack up once again to end the trip tells the story. Then Ennis adds insult to injury with the November business. Jack's frustration takes a turn for the worse and Ennis knows it. His Jack is not happy to say the least. Watch Ennis's manner when Jack slams the truck door. Then he goes on to try to appease Jack somehow with promises of huntings trips and Don Wroes's cabin etc...  Jack mumbles it's time he wants, just a little more time, thats all. Jack obviously is no longer buying the money aspects as Ennis tries to excuse his lack of quality time with Jack. Ennis never just thinks that with Jack, it's not about money it's about them. Money can be gotten later as Jack's life plan would make it possible for Ennis to never have to worry about working for someone else ever again.

[tpe]

  The thing in this scene that really gets to me though is that after all their time together, Jack can't even say, "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," he feels that it's necessary to soften the the impact of revealing his deep feelings for Ennis by qualifying it with, "Sometimes."

Yes.  I think the reason is because Jack somehow feels that Ennis would frown on such an exhibition.  I think Jack saw this and understood this.  Perhaps what he saw in Ennis was a love for the unspoken.