Author Topic: What Would Ennis Do With Jack's Ashes? (Read 28177 times)

jackster · « **on:** Mar 19, 2007, 10:02 PM »

What do you think Ennis would have done with Jack's ashes up on Brokeback? He made a long journey to Lightning Flat expecting get them so he must have had a pretty good idea of what he was going to do with them when he got up to Brokeback. What? How and where do you think he would have disposed of them? Here and there at various significant points, all buried at one critical spot, or, what? How do you see Ennis del Mar committing such a significant and personally emotional act? Also, keep in mind he planned on doing this BEFORE he knew about the shirts. How do you think he would have changed his ideas after finding the shirts. Haven't seen this in any postings.

jackster

manhattangirl · « **Reply #1 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 06:59 AM »

Even after finding the shirts, he would have taken Jack to Brokeback, and scattered his ashes there. That was their place, their lives was lived there. Jack told him "so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that. It's all we got, boy, f@#kin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest". No matter how painful that encounter was, that's the truest statement Jack made to him. Just think, Ennis might go back in the following year, as always to be with him. Maybe November, no August.

tpe · « **Reply #2 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 07:01 AM »

I think he would have fulfilled Jack's wishes.

Where in BBM would he have disposed of them? It would be most beautiful if he selected the field where they fought and where Ennis got his shirt all bloodied. That would have been most beautiful.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #3 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 11:41 AM »

What a wonderful question!

I see Ennis doing something very simple. Perhaps, as Thomas suggested, he would scatter them in that field.

Or maybe near one of their camps, or over the water.

As to what might be different after finding the shirts, I think like everything else about Ennis, this would have been an internalized process. Meaning that what he did physically might not change from his original intent (go there, scatter ashes, check) but how he felt about it or what it meant to him on a deeper level would be changed.

Now you have me wondering...

jackster · « **Reply #4 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 12:50 PM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Mar 20, 2007, 11:41 AM

Now you have me wondering...

Hey, that's the idea. Of course the "fight field" seems an obvious answer, BUT, Ennis didn't realize the significance of that site until AFTER he found the shirts. I think until he found the shirt that Jack had treasured, that whole scene may have been one of some considerable pain and regret and one that did not play a big role in his vision of Jack and he. He did mention "that punch" in the Motel Siesta, but nothing more came of it. Of course all that changed after his trip to Jack's closet. But by that time, or nearly so, it was clear he wasn't going to get the ashes. So, on his way to Lightning Flat I think that maybe he felt the SNIT site where he first made LOVE would have been the most significant. I think the FNIT site (which I guess is really the same) was more pure animal sex and release, less about making love and being in love with Jack. Any other sites you think would be play a big role? And what would he actully do? Bury them, scatter them, whut?

jackster

FlwrChild · « **Reply #5 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 01:01 PM »

Good point jackster. I picture him scattering them rather than burying them. On the one hand, burying them makes Jack part of Brokeback forever. But there is something freeing to me in the gesture of scattering them and letting them go where they choose.

welshwitch · « **Reply #6 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 01:57 PM »

I'd like to think of him scattering them on the campsite in commmeoration of SNIT and the dozy embrace. It seems somehow appropriate for Jack's ashes to be taken by the endless wind that blows on the mountain and set free as he wasn't in life. In my mind Jack associates with mercury, or quicksilver, to give it its old name;so I think of movement, even restlessness, in connection with him, and thus to commit him to the wind seems fitting.

tpe · « **Reply #7 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 02:10 PM »

Here's a follow-up question. Would any of you think it possible that Ennis would keep a portion of the ashes for himself?

I don't see Jack objecting to it. And it would mean perhaps that Ennis had turned around?

FlwrChild · « **Reply #8 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 02:51 PM »

Hmm, good question Thomas.

Although, upon reflection, I think he'd scatter all of the ashes. Because he has the shirts to connect him to Jack and that way Jack could be free.

I like the way you put it ww.

tpe · « **Reply #9 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 02:58 PM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Mar 20, 2007, 02:51 PM

Although, upon reflection, I think he'd scatter all of the ashes. Because he has the shirts to connect him to Jack and that way Jack could be free.

I know the thought sounds a bit morbid, but you are right: perhaps the shirts would have sufficed...

JT · « **Reply #10 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 03:14 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 20, 2007, 07:01 AM

I think he would have fulfilled Jack's wishes.

Where in BBM would he have disposed of them? It would be most beautiful if he selected the field where they fought and where Ennis got his shirt all bloodied. That would have been most beautiful.

Thats exactly where I think Ennis would spread Jack's ashes after he found the shirts. But before he found the shirts, he would probably choose the second tent site or have that on his mind. That's here he falls for Jack, I think.

tpe · « **Reply #11 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 05:05 PM »

Quote from: JT on Mar 20, 2007, 03:14 PM

Thats exactly where I think Ennis would spread Jack's ashes after he found the shirts. But before he found the shirts, he would probably choose the second tent site or have that on his mind. That's here he falls for Jack, I think.

That was my second likely location.

jackster · « **Reply #12 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 06:36 PM »

Interesting ideas folks. Seems like two types of locations, a place something HAPPENED or a place very BEAUTIFUL. Of course to our jaded eyes they're all beautiful. Would Ennis think that Jack wanted to be somewhere scenic, emotional? Or Both? Some graphics to go with the choices in no particular order:

SNIT site, not as scenic but really significant

Sheep Pasture Site "Up on the Mountain" very scenic

The Fight Hill, significant but only later, after Ennis found the shirts

The Dozy Embrace Site (is this the same as SNIT?) significant to Jack but did Ennis realize this and was it significant to him?

What about a later mature Campsite where they were just together?

Or a very beautiful site where they just happened to ride their horses?

Maybe all of them - it's a tough decision for poor Ennis.

jackster

manhattangirl · « **Reply #13 on:** Mar 20, 2007, 07:56 PM »

IMO:

I don't know if Ennis would see any one particular spot, but Brokeback as a whole. This was their place, every stream, hill, mountain, pasture. Brokeback was their world, their country. There was no where they couldn't go. No where they couldn't sit and get drunk, smoke a little pot, jump off a clift into a river, no where they couldn't make love. The only place where they were truly be themselves.

Ennis, I could see standing on hill over looking a stream, letting Jack ashes just go all over, everwhere. So no matter where he rode his horse on Brokeback Mountain Jack would alway be there, riding with him.

NoReins · « **Reply #14 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 05:11 AM »

What a wonderful question.

I can see Ennis going somewhere high up and simply scattering Jack's ashes to the wind, free to go wherever nature took him. Although the SNIT scene or the dozy embrace scene had significance, it was the whole mountain that was their special place and by scattering the ashes, Jack could continue to inhabit the whole mountain.

God, I'm getting all teary just thinking about it :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #15 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 07:10 AM »

It is a pity, but I guess that Ennis would not have known of the significance of the camp site where the dozy embrace occurred. Only Jack probably attached very great significance to it, and Ennis may not have even remembered it at all. Perhaps Jack had the opportunity to mention it to Ennis at one point. If it was mentioned, then I am sure that Ennis would have seen the place as most apt.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #16 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 08:18 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Mar 20, 2007, 01:57 PM

I'd like to think of him scattering them on the campsite in commmeoration of SNIT and the dozy embrace. It seems somehow appropriate for Jack's ashes to be taken by the endless wind that blows on the mountain and set free as he wasn't in life. In my mind Jack associates with mercury, or quicksilver, to give it its old name;so I think of movement, even restlessness, in connection with him, and thus to commit him to the wind seems fitting.

Wow this thread is killing me :\'( I definitely think he would have just scattered them and let them go where they may. I love the ideas of scattering a bit here and there to commemorate different stages of their relationship. And I do think that he still would have scattered them despite finding the shirts because he would be able to fulfill Jack's last wish and still have a tangible piece of him.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #17 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 08:37 PM »

Why limit them to one spot, wasn't their lives limited enough?

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #18 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 08:41 PM »

I'd like to believe that Ennis would have tried to release Jack's ashes close to the SNIT site. As mentioned earlier, it's the place where they first made love. As emotionally repressed as Ennis was, I tend to believe even he would attempt to honor Jack by making his final resting place somewhere that was so absolutely special to both of them.

Ok...I need tissues now. :\'(

jackster · « **Reply #19 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 09:31 PM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Mar 21, 2007, 08:18 PM

I do think that he still would have scattered them despite finding the shirts

Dear Luv:

Hope you didn't misinterpret my suggestion here. I was only thinking that until AFTER Ennis found the shirts the whole fight scene and site may not of had much meaning to him. Can you recall the very FIRST time you watched BBM (of course!!), I remember being very upset and confused by that scene - Why were they fighting? It didn't make any sense to me I thought they loved each other. Only later, after Ennis (and us the audience) found the shirts did its deep value and meaning become clear, and of course when I watched it again that whole scene took on MUCH more meaning. I certainly think Ennis would have scattered Jack's ashes after finding the shirts, it's just that his ideas of where (or how) to do that MAY have changed when he discovered the importance of that one location/event to Jack 20 years earlier. He didn't know that importance when he was driving to Lightning Flat.

jackster

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #20 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 10:01 PM »

That was the scene (the fight) that played over and over in my mind the morning after I first saw BBM and when I finally cried. I see the shirts symbolizing the summer as a whole not just that one event in which they came to be. I probably shouldn't have said still-lol I don't know if it would have changed any plans that he may have initially had and I wonder if by finding the shirts and all that they symbolized to him if that made it harder on him to not be able fulfill Jack's wishes. The sad fact is that even if he did get to scatter the ashes it was only half of Jack- the rest of him was still in Texas $:-\\$ I was thinking along the lines of just letting them go and as Welshwitch said set him free. I like to think Jack would find his way and settle in all of the spots that were especially meaningful to him.

jackster · « **Reply #21 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 10:05 PM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Mar 21, 2007, 08:18 PM

Wow this thread is killing me.

Yeah, it is tough. It hit me watching that scene at Jack’s house (again) when Ennis says “If you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback . . .” and, knowing people who have done this act, it is usually a deeply personal and emotional act, the last time you are “with” someone in some way in the physical world. And I got to thinking what did Ennis think he was going to do with this last bit of Jack, what was his plan for up there? He must of really wanted to do it, making the trip to see Jack's folks an' all.

And then, it all changed when he found the shirts, his shirt and Jack’s shirt, suddenly he had something else more tangible to remember Jack by and his whole view of things and some events changed. So then what, how would that have changed his plan and, Ennis being Ennis, the tough-guy we see cry five times, how would he handle this? What would he do up there all by himself.

jackster

JT · « **Reply #22 on:** Mar 21, 2007, 11:06 PM »

Quote

The sad fact is that even if he did get to scatter the ashes it was only half of Jack- the rest of him was still in Texas

I know I have a strange philosophy regarding this, but to me, as long as you have a small part of your ashes scattered by the person you love most, then it matters more than the rest that's being buried by someone you don't care about. Sure it would be nice for Ennis to scatter the whole content of Jack's ashes, but to me, just having a pinch of him and making the complete journey up to Brokeback would have simbolize him commitment to Jack and to honor his last wish. That to me would be enough to set him free.

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Mar 22, 2007, 07:20 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Mar 21, 2007, 08:37 PM

Why limit them to one spot, wasn't their lives limited enough?

To define is to limit.

By limiting it to one spot, Ennis would make it hallowed ground. It would tie him to the Mountain forever, as much as we don't need multiple rings in a wedding.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #24 on:** Mar 22, 2007, 07:22 AM »

Great thread Jackster! Yes I think the FNIT and SNIT sites would be the rightful place. At the beginning of this scene we see Jack sitting still on his horse looking toward a majestic veiw of the rockface of the mountains, and Ennis is following him into the area with the mules but Jack appears to have already decided to set up camp on this site and yells something at Ennis to that effect. It is the place where they experienced every sense and emotion possible right there. consummated their love body and soul . Jack must have found something compelling about it. I can see Ennis sitting a long time up there alone reflecting while holding Jack's ashes. Maybe even "talking" to him ( or his spirit) Remembering all the good times and all the goofy stuff they did together. How they both hated Aquirre etc. I feel he would scatter them here . Yes, this would be the spot imo.

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Mar 22, 2007, 07:25 AM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Mar 21, 2007, 10:01 PM

That was the scene (the fight) that played over and over in my mind the morning after I first saw BBM and when I finally cried. I see the shirts symbolizing the summer as a whole not just that one event in which they came to be. I probably shouldn't have said still-lol I don't know if it would have changed any plans that he may have initially had and I wonder if by finding the shirts and all that they symbolized to him if that made it harder on him to not be able fulfill Jack's wishes. The sad fact is that even if he did get to scatter the ashes it was only half of Jack- the rest of him was still in Texas $:-\\$ I was thinking along the lines of just letting them go and as Welshwitch said set him free. I like to think Jack would find his way and settle in all of the spots that were especially meaningful to him.

True, it was only half of Jack. But I think that Ennis knew that he had Ennis entire in a deeper sense.

Even a pinch of Jack's ashes would have been enough to consecrate the Mountain in Ennis's mind for the remainder of his life, IMO.

I speculate here: when Ennis dies, I am sure that one of his last wishes would be to have his ashes scattered in the same place in BBM that he had hallowed by the deposition of Jack's ashes.

tpe · « **Reply #26 on:** Mar 22, 2007, 07:29 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 22, 2007, 07:22 AM

Great thread Jackster! Yes I think the FNIT and SNIT sites would be the rightful place. At the beginning of this scene we see Jack sitting still on his horse looking toward a majestic veiw of the rockface of the mountains, and Ennis is following him into the area with the mules but Jack appears to have already decided to set up camp on this site and yells something at Ennis to that effect. It is the place where they experienced every sense and emotion possible right there. consummated their love body and soul . Jack must have found something compelling about it. I can see Ennis sitting a long time up there alone reflecting while holding Jack's ashes. Maybe even "talking" to him ( or his spirit) Remembering all the good times and all the goofy stuff they did together. How they both hated Aquirre etc. I feel he would scatter them here . Yes, this would be the spot imo.

It is a pity that a return to BBM was never realized -- even upon the death of Jack.

I suspect that with the way things turned out, Ennis would never return to BBM. But would it have been different if he did get a chance to scatter Jack's ashes in the mountain.

I think so.

If Ennis had done this, the Mountain and Jack would have become one and inseperable in his mind.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #27 on:** Mar 22, 2007, 08:26 AM »

Yes, in a spiritual sense but in my opinion mentally they already were . How could Ennis cast his eyes towards BBM and not think of his beloved Jack ever again? Since he could'nt get the ashes , would Ennis dare to part with the shirts and take them up there to bury? Or do they mean much more right there on his closet door? Maybe even on a return visit after the old man dies he can get the ashes from Jack's Moms (assuming she's still alive too and carry out Jack's wish or something personal of Jack's ( his belt buckle or the harmonica),anything that Jack held dear and had special meaning? bury it in a fav spot.? Postcards? hmmmmm?

jackster · « **Reply #28 on:** Mar 22, 2007, 09:15 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 22, 2007, 08:26 AM

Maybe even on a return visit after the old man dies he can get the ashes from Jack's Mom

This was the first thing that came to my mind when she said "You come back and see us sometime". Once she knew Ennis was the guy in "other" shirt (which she didn't know, or at least wasn't sure about, until that moment) I think she was going to hatch a plan to get those ashes one way or another and get them up to Brokeback (via Ennis) where her beloved son Jack wanted to go. I think she desperately wanted Ennis to come back and get her son's ashes. It was going to happen, somehow, eventually. It goes without saying that mother's can be incredibly persistent and undaunted when it comes to their children's wishes.

jackster

tpe · « **Reply #29 on:** Mar 22, 2007, 09:42 AM »

I agree. The future is open to possibilities as far as the fate of Jack's ashes is concerned.

Regardless, Jack's ashes symbolically resides in Ennis's heart, no? After all, the Mountain is a metaphor for their love.