Topic: Randall: A Wake Up Call?

[lamusica]

It certainly looks as if he married LaShawn for camouflage - maybe he too went off on "fishing trips" - what an interesting speculation that he might have had a similar situation with someone similar to that of Jack with Ennis.

We do know that Jack was not surprised when Randall started getting "friendly".  There was no shock on his face -- just a look of resignation -- a real effort at not showing any feelings either way.  I think this shows that jack was used to being hit upon.  However, like FlowerChild says, though, this is all a bunch of assumptions, but that's all we have to go on since so much was left openended in the ss and the film.  It is the assumptions that help us flesh out the possibillities, no?

[FlwrChild]

Exactly! That's why there are so many possibilities for where this could have gone if Ennis found out about Randall.

[aintfoolin]

Yes, the possibilities are endless had this  event occurred, Ennis meeting Randall.  I agree. It is the assumptions that we are left with concerning this ,allowing us to explore those *possibilities*. Having said that,
 I doubt that Jack would allow himself to fall back into a relationship  with someone where he is not in equal agreement with what he wanted. The kind of lifesyle he'd feel comfortable leading. If he chose to go exclusively with Randall and drop Ennis , it would have to be just that ..exclusive. I cannot see Jack *bedhopping * between Randall and Ennis. Human nature would cause Randall  and Ennis to show jeaulosy which would  be natural  and human on both parts. Especially in this case, who really WANTS  or is willing to share a partner?  In my opinion Jack would have to make a clean break and choose one or the other . It would be the only way Jack can face the reality of his loss of Ennis and  finally letting go if he chose Randall.  Ennis would not stand for this set-up either. I ask this question : Who has the advantage at this point? Ennis? because Jack already is in love with him? or Randall, who lives in close proximity to Jack with lots to offer to a very vulnerable  unfulled Jack?  It's really Jack's choice. Possibilities? yes indeedy...But  someone has to loose. in this thing.... eventually .MHO

[tpe]

But we are making some assumptions here as well. We certainly know he had a relationship of some kind with Randall. And we know what he told his father. But he also told him that he would be bringing Ennis up there some day and that wasn't based on any agreement he and Ennis had made. Maybe Randall was perfectly happy with the fishing trip type of arrangement and offered Jack nothing more than Ennis? Proximity would be an advantage there but it wouldn't necessarily afford Jack the opportunity to have the kind of life he really wanted.

This is true.  For all we know,  Randall may have also been equally averse to help Jack fulfill his dream. 

But the fact that Jack was considering Randall in place of Ennis is very significant, no?
 

What's even more relevant here is probably what Ennis thought Randall was willing to offer Jack. And of course, how the knowledge of Jack being involved in a more personal relationship with a man (as opposed to the Mexico type of activity) would effect his feelings and perceptions.

Yes, I do think in a way, this showed Ennis that Jack really wanted to pursue his dream, even if that would possibly mean leaving the person he truly loved.  Jack was not just about sexual gratification and transient hook-ups.  He was truly in search of a shared life. 

[tpe]

Yes, the possibilities are endless had this  event occurred, Ennis meeting Randall.  I agree. It is the assumptions that we are left with concerning this ,allowing us to explore those *possibilities*. Having said that,
I doubt that Jack would allow himself to fall back into a relationship  with someone where he is not in equal agreement with what he wanted. The kind of lifesyle he'd feel comfortable leading. If he chose to go exclusively with Randall and drop Ennis , it would have to be just that ..exclusive. I cannot see Jack *bedhopping * between Randall and Ennis. Human nature would cause Randall  and Ennis to show jeaulosy which would  be natural  and human on both parts. Especially in this case, who really WANTS  or is willing to share a partner?  In my opinion Jack would have to make a clean break and choose one or the other . It would be the only way Jack can face the reality of his loss of Ennis and  finally letting go if he chose Randall.  Ennis would not stand for this set-up either. I ask this question : Who has the advantage at this point? Ennis? because Jack already is in love with him? or Randall, who lives in close proximity to Jack with lots to offer to a very vulnerable  unfulled Jack?  It's really Jack's choice. Possibilities? yes indeedy...But  someone has to loose. in this thing.... eventually .MHO

That is a most interesting comment, aintfoolin.  It certainly makes me think about the possibilities had Jack lived.

Half of me would very much agree, and the other half thinks whether Jack is paragmatic enough to do otherwise.  It is hard for me to make a definitive statement, and yet I must say that your point is very persuasive.

 

[FlwrChild]

Thomas, I think that perfectly sums up what Jack was all about.

I wonder if Ennis really realized that (the post divorce fiasco notwithstanding) until the final confrontation. I mean, just how important it was to Jack. A relationship with Randall (or anyone on a steady basis) might have provided him with a clue to that.

[welshwitch]

And time has passed - quite a lot of time. Jack may now see things differently - when you're young you think you have all the time in the world, but later when you realise you don't you may start to want something more settled, more permanent. Maybe Jack is tired of a loveless marriage a few high-altitude f**ks once a year, and sees the rest of his life as never amounting to more than that (plus the odd excursion to Mexico) with Ennis. With Randall, however, he clearly has the same vision as much earlier he did with Ennis, of a shared life, living and working together - Jack is looking for permanence, I think, not short-lived contacts - OK those with Ennis are different in that they love each other but they're still transitory and fleeting.

[lamusica]

I wasn't supposing a situation in which Randall and Ennis knew about one another.  I was supposing a situation similar to the old movie in which a married man meets his true love from time to time over a long period of years, unbeknownst to his wife.  (Sorry I can't remember the name of themovie.)  I think this sort of thing is very possible and happens more often than most people realize.  Oh, well, it's just a supposition, a possibility.

[aintfoolin]

Clues to long term intentions are limited here so I am assuming alot. I can't see Jack jumping from one half-life to another. After the last confrontaion, Jack made it clear what he wanted A whole life, a settled life with a partnership with Ennis. I totally agree with you WW that Jack was looking for permanence. Ennis was not able to provide this. True , he had no gaurantees tht Randall would be the one to satisfy this need, but at least it opened up possibilities for him. Options and choices were at hand unlike the short leash Ennis insisted on . Yes, we are talking an older, more *seasoned* Jack here, gave 20 years to a relationship only to realize that the one he loved was'nt going to fully commit to him. Certainly he could'nt just forget about Ennis overnight, but on the assumption that Randall could grow to love Jack it is obvious that he'd want Jack to himself and it would be up to Jack and Randall to make that happen.  Also , assuming that Randall would be leaving his marriage and all that it entails, Randall would be sacrificing and risking exposure for Jack if he wanted him bad enough. He had as much to loose as Jack did, Jack would see this and see even more of the possible scenario of his dream of a real life with someone. When I think about Jack's reality, In a loveless marriage, drinking heavily, and waiting endlessly for Ennis to come around with no end in sight? Then Randall comes along, offers him a choice for once. He had to see this as a tempting offer and hard to refuse givin his current circumstances.Sadly we'll never know but dreaming is free right?

[tpe]

Thomas, I think that perfectly sums up what Jack was all about.

I wonder if Ennis really realized that (the post divorce fiasco notwithstanding) until the final confrontation. I mean, just how important it was to Jack. A relationship with Randall (or anyone on a steady basis) might have provided him with a clue to that.

I don't think Ennis fully realized this while Jack was still alive.  Did Randall fare better in realizing what Jack wanted?  Perhaps it was his willingness to explore it that made Jack consider him...

[tpe]

Clues to long term intentions are limited here so I am assuming alot. I can't see Jack jumping from one half-life to another. After the last confrontaion, Jack made it clear what he wanted A whole life, a settled life with a partnership with Ennis. I totally agree with you WW that Jack was looking for permanence. Ennis was not able to provide this. True , he had no gaurantees tht Randall would be the one to satisfy this need, but at least it opened up possibilities for him. Options and choices were at hand unlike the short leash Ennis insisted on . Yes, we are talking an older, more *seasoned* Jack here, gave 20 years to a relationship only to realize that the one he loved was'nt going to fully commit to him. Certainly he could'nt just forget about Ennis overnight, but on the assumption that Randall could grow to love Jack it is obvious that he'd want Jack to himself and it would be up to Jack and Randall to make that happen.  Also , assuming that Randall would be leaving his marriage and all that it entails, Randall would be sacrificing and risking exposure for Jack if he wanted him bad enough. He had as much to loose as Jack did, Jack would see this and see even more of the possible scenario of his dream of a real life with someone. When I think about Jack's reality, In a loveless marriage, drinking heavily, and waiting endlessly for Ennis to come around with no end in sight? Then Randall comes along, offers him a choice for once. He had to see this as a tempting offer and hard to refuse givin his current circumstances.Sadly we'll never know but dreaming is free right?

We are indeed talking about a more seasoned Jack.  Someone who had gone therough a lot, and (frankly) suffered a lot.   Ennis probably suffered just as much, although he was loath to make the jump.  Randall therefore broke the stalemate, in a way.  He would have put Jack and Ennis off balance.

[aintfoolin]

Definitly would throw Jack and Ennis off balance Tpe. The question is in what direction would the scales tilt? Wether Jack could really let Ennis go remains a mystery, but at least he is at the point where he sees a choice in this complicated matter of his heart. I agree Randall provided that for him. On the other hand Ennis also has a hard choice to make. Could he allow Jack to be free enough of him to make that choice. This is where Jack would have to take serious control of his  own life.  There would be a fine line here for him to walk. Very touchy.  Ennis will always be a part of Jack no matter which direction the relationship goes. Only time itself can answer the question along with Randall's determination to show Jack that he can be satisfied with someone else if he's serious about him. This would not be an easy task as Jack may have to go through a *greiving* process. Patience would be a key factor. Can someone please call Dr. Phil? Jack needs help!

[tpe]

Definitly would throw Jack and Ennis off balance Tpe. The question is in what direction would the scales tilt? Wether Jack could really let Ennis go remains a mystery, but at least he is at the point where he sees a choice in this complicated matter of his heart. I agree Randall provided that for him. On the other hand Ennis also has a hard choice to make. Could he allow Jack to be free enough of him to make that choice. This is where Jack would have to take serious control of his  own life.  There would be a fine line here for him to walk. Very touchy.  Ennis will always be a part of Jack no matter which direction the relationship goes. Only time itself can answer the question along with Randall's determination to show Jack that he can be satisfied with someone else if he's serious about him. This would not be an easy task as Jack may have to go through a *greiving* process. Patience would be a key factor. Can someone please call Dr. Phil? Jack needs help!

Would you think that Randall gave Jack hope in his last days?  In this light, he is a sympatheic figure -- less a competitor to Ennis and more as a comfort to Jack after he realized that he would probably never get Ennis to commit.

I think sometimes, we do tend to think of him as a "bad guy" -- the one who will grab Jack away from Ennis.  But did he really know Ennis?  Perhaps if he did, he would have been more wary of Jack's plans, no?

In any case, had Ennis known about Randall, I am sure that Ennis would not have took things sitting down.  That in itself would have shown Jack that there was still hope.

[aintfoolin]

I do think Randall gave Jack hope.  which probably grew into comforting .element. also. He was vulnerable and ready for major changes in his life.
Jack had said his peace at that last confrontation. Laid it all out for Ennis, ( "and I'll say it just once") then he simply said it. Evereything that had been bothering him most about the whole affair was put out there for Ennis to hear.  He lied and kept Randall 's exsistence a secret probably out of an unwillingness to hurt Ennis or perhaps as a *waiting in the wings* alternative  to Ennis's refusal to the life he wanted. In any case it was not the time for this major bombshell...Randall. Besides Ennis had just heard about The Mexican business and was not  exactly in the mood to hear about a potentially  serious replacement in Jack's life. Was Jack being calculating? human ? Maybe so ...and why not? He deserved  real happiness or at least a chance at it.  As painful as it was to Ennis and himself, I think he was finally daring Ennis  to take a stand.and face his fears. and responsibilities in the matter of his broken heart...or else....Randall would be the new chapter in his life. . He was hope indeed. IMO

[welshwitch]

I agree: stating that he would say all this only once suggests that it a sort of ultimatum and that Jack doesn't intend to repeat this scene. Leaving Randall out of it avoids threatening or emotionally blackmailing Ennis - "You turn me down now and I've got someone else to turn to". This makes the choice simply one for Ennis - does he go on as before, which he says he can;t stand, or does he fix it by changing?

After twenty years, much of it spent apart, I think Jack may be almost at the same stage as Ennis is, thinking that he can;t put up with this any more and someone prepared to commit to him, even if whoever it is isn;t the love of his life, might be better than Ennis, who is, but who has put him through so much and shows no sign of stopping doing so.

[tpe]

Thanks, aintfoolin and WW.

Sometimes, I suspect that had Jack lived and met Ennis next November, then Jack would have revealed all about Randall to Ennis, as part of an all-out effort, or as a way of "ending" things.  I don't know...  As aintfoolin had said,  any earlier was perhaps not the right time.  But I wonder whether Randall would have been the instrument of a final ultimatum.  Perhaps this waould have been his main purpose.

[aintfoolin]

I agree with you here. As  was said earlier, Randall may have been the catylist for these two cowboys to finally come together as one.  Randall was'nt just any guy. He had the tools, an educated man ,with almost guaranteed prospects to be successfull in ranching or particlarly helpful in helping Jack attain his goal of being the partner in a "cow and calf" operation. The guy had a degree in animal husbandry for goodness sake! What more could Jack ask for if this was his desire? Randall had the credentials Jack needed to acheive this.
Ennis did'nt have college, prospects, or the abilility to offer Jack material possesions, but he had somrthing more valuable than Randall could ever fully acheive and that  was the un disputed fact that he owned Jack's heart. Jack was willing to give up money and all that it entails to be with this man,and probably could have acheived on his own( divorce  settlment money, pay offs from old man Newsome, etc. so Jack was'nt completly out in the cold as far as financial options go, but he wanted the love to share it all with. His love trumps money attitude is to be admired, but to have the honor of a loving relationship made it all complete for him. He had learned money cannot buy happiness, but that love is the sustaining factor.

[tpe]

I agree with you here. As  was said earlier, Randall may have been the catylist for these two cowboys to finally come together as one.  Randall was'nt just any guy. He had the tools, an educated man ,with almost guaranteed prospects to be successfull in ranching or particlarly helpful in helping Jack attain his goal of being the partner in a "cow and calf" operation. The guy had a degree in animal husbandry for goodness sake! What more could Jack ask for if this was his desire? Randall had the credentials Jack needed to acheive this.
Ennis did'nt have college, prospects, or the abilility to offer Jack material possesions, but he had somrthing more valuable than Randall could ever fully acheive and that  was the un disputed fact that he owned Jack's heart. Jack was willing to give up money and all that it entails to be with this man,and probably could have acheived on his own( divorce  settlment money, pay offs from old man Newsome, etc. so Jack was'nt completly out in the cold as far as financial options go, but he wanted the love to share it all with. His love trumps money attitude is to be admired, but to have the honor of a loving relationship made it all complete for him. He had learned money cannot buy happiness, but that love is the sustaining factor.

I love how you say this. 

Yes, somehow, I feel that Randall could have been the one to push Ennis over the edge.  Perhaps Jack had a wisdom of his own...

[manhattangirl]

Please understand what I'm about to say:

But would a man, look to another man for his future earning potential?   I mean, little girls are taught in society to marry well, marry a man with potential, a future.  Would Jack look at Randall as a "great catch", or would he be looking for someone to work together for a future, or work to take care of the one he loved?   Being a man, to be the bread winner, the provider, wouldn't necessarily dissipate would it?  He found no satifaction married into a well to do family.

Just curious.   

[aintfoolin]

 No, it does not dissipate MG, I beleive Jack was looking for a partnership. Someone he could share life with on equal terms .I do not mean that Jack has to sit around waiting for Randall  to come home from work, with an apron on or be anybody's *kept man* . Jack is talking coming together ,each according to his knowledge and skill to make this sweet life a reality. There are no *roles* here. He was a man's man ( no pun intended) and a study in masculinity.  Randall I think would be a *good catch* for anyone with his credentials and knowledge. With an animal husbandry major under his belt I'm betting he knows alot about cows and calving in Texas-1978. He fit into Jack's dream of a working relationship as well as a life partner. Jack on the other hand ,had his own skills to contribute. His honest business sense, coulpled with his potent charming personality, (he was Newsome's best and only salesman)  It is a true skill to be really good at this kind of thing . An ability to gain trust is another important virtue of Jack's,  it's almost essential in businss . Certainly, he would love Ennis to see it all as he saw it but Ennis was far from convinced that this dream could come true ....and no one was getting any younger.  Jack saw Randall as a potenial love interest, but also as well as someone who just fit nicely into the picture and could help greatly in fullfilling his dream.

[manhattangirl]

Thanks, Aintfoolin,

[tpe]

Please understand what I'm about to say:

But would a man, look to another man for his future earning potential?   I mean, little girls are taught in society to marry well, marry a man with potential, a future.  Would Jack look at Randall as a "great catch", or would he be looking for someone to work together for a future, or work to take care of the one he loved?   Being a man, to be the bread winner, the provider, wouldn't necessarily dissipate would it?  He found no satifaction married into a well to do family.

Just curious.   

Hello manhattangirl.  I feel that it is that Jack was in search of someone to work together for a future.   Certainly his plans to move back to LF and bring back to life the old ranch points more to this: there was surely no need to go back to the ranch if Randall could provide for him.  Of course, Randall would have the skill to help him bring the ranch back into shape, but why take this difficult route, if it would be easier for Randall to support him elsewhere...

I think Jack wanted to someone (Randall or Ennis) back to the ranch in order to have a home where both of them could grow in love and take root.

[tpe]

No, it does not dissipate MG, I beleive Jack was looking for a partnership. Someone he could share life with on equal terms .I do not mean that Jack has to sit around waiting for Randall  to come home from work, with an apron on or be anybody's *kept man* . Jack is talking coming together ,each according to his knowledge and skill to make this sweet life a reality. There are no *roles* here. He was a man's man ( no pun intended) and a study in masculinity.  Randall I think would be a *good catch* for anyone with his credentials and knowledge. With an animal husbandry major under his belt I'm betting he knows alot about cows and calving in Texas-1978. He fit into Jack's dream of a working relationship as well as a life partner. Jack on the other hand ,had his own skills to contribute. His honest business sense, coulpled with his potent charming personality, (he was Newsome's best and only salesman)  It is a true skill to be really good at this kind of thing . An ability to gain trust is another important virtue of Jack's,  it's almost essential in businss . Certainly, he would love Ennis to see it all as he saw it but Ennis was far from convinced that this dream could come true ....and no one was getting any younger.  Jack saw Randall as a potenial love interest, but also as well as someone who just fit nicely into the picture and could help greatly in fullfilling his dream.

aintfoolin, you said it better here. 

[lamusica]

While what you say makes sense to me, I am hung up on that one statement of Jack's to Ennis about how much he misses him.  I think Jack wanted a lot more from Ennis than companionship in fixing up and maintaining a ranch together.  He wanted Ennis because he loved him.  Now, it's possible, I guess, that Jack later on became willing to compromise and settle for Randall, but I just don't think Randall could have ever taken Ennis's place in Jack's heart.  Sometimes you just have to "love the one you're with" when you can't have the one you love.

[manhattangirl]

"Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it",  how honest can someone with the one they love, and the next scene you see Ennis sleeping with Jack his arm over him.   What did that scene mean, when the next morning the confrontation happen. 

Is there a connection with Jack's confession to Ennis and Ennis's changing the date from August to November, or should I said after a week bringing it up before Jack leaves. 
 
Ennis is so full of hidden motivations.   

[masetane]

I think Jack had that look on his face (after Randall suggested the cabin and getting away) because it reminded him of Ennis.

But I'm wondering - how did Randall even know it was "safe" to approach Jack that way. Being as there was such homophobia there ( i.e. Jack's death)

[lamusica]

That look on Jack's face was, IMO, very sorrowful -- sort of like "here we go again".  Jack didn't have a chance to turn and face Randall and respond to him because the women came out the door at that time and aborted that scene.  I have always wondered what Jack would have said had they not been interrupted.  The look on his face is priceless -- certainly not a welcoming, happy countenance at all -- rather a wounded, enigmatic stare into the distance.

[tpe]

While what you say makes sense to me, I am hung up on that one statement of Jack's to Ennis about how much he misses him.  I think Jack wanted a lot more from Ennis than companionship in fixing up and maintaining a ranch together.  He wanted Ennis because he loved him.  Now, it's possible, I guess, that Jack later on became willing to compromise and settle for Randall, but I just don't think Randall could have ever taken Ennis's place in Jack's heart.  Sometimes you just have to "love the one you're with" when you can't have the one you love.

I think the main difference with Randall is that when Jack was contemplating bringing him instead of Ennis up to LF, he was probably taking a chance, since we know that it was Ennis whom he loved and that resigning himself with Randall was an alternative that he wasn't completly sure would work in the long run. 

Jack was a risk taker to the end,, willing to consider possibilities, even if he himself was probably far from sure of the outcome.  It was only with Ennis that he probably felt certain that he would be happy.

Do you get what I mean here?

[tpe]

"Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it",  how honest can someone with the one they love, and the next scene you see Ennis sleeping with Jack his arm over him.   What did that scene mean, when the next morning the confrontation happen. 

Is there a connection with Jack's confession to Ennis and Ennis's changing the date from August to November, or should I said after a week bringing it up before Jack leaves. 
 
Ennis is so full of hidden motivations.   

I don't know.  Probably not. 

The context of Jack's cry for help was his confession to Ennis about an affair with the ranch foreman's wife -- probably an allusion to his affair with Randall.  I wonder ifEnnis understood the context. I suspect he did, but felt powerless to say anything.  "A simple unconditional "I love you" would have saved Jack.

[tpe]

I think Jack had that look on his face (after Randall suggested the cabin and getting away) because it reminded him of Ennis.

But I'm wondering - how did Randall even know it was "safe" to approach Jack that way. Being as there was such homophobia there ( i.e. Jack's death)

masetane, like lamusica, I detect a hint of sorrow in Jack's face.  And I have always believed that it is jack's look whenever he thinks of Ennis in an emotionally vulnerable moment (such as earlier in the dance with Lureen).

T subject of Randall "knowing" has been discussed in other threads dealing with Randall.  Do take a look at them, as you will find them very interesting.