Topic: wrestling scenes

[kcristob]

scenes that keep coming back to me as interesting to compare and contrast are the wrestling scenes.  I would love to hear if others have compared them:

**Ennis and Jack wrestling before they go down the mountain:  Culminating in Ennis punching Jack


**Ennis and Alma wrestling in the snow:  Ennis' concern over hurting her because he was too rough

Ideas?  Thoughts?

[ethan]

Did Ennis and Alma wrestle in the snow? I don't recall.

[kcristob]

Yes!  It's when Ennis and Elma are sledding, and they dissolve into a wrestling match - stuffing snow at each other.  Ennis kind of pulls back and says "did I hurt you?"

[ethan]

Yes!  It's when Ennis and Elma are sledding, and they dissolve into a wrestling match - stuffing snow at each other.  Ennis kind of pulls back and says "did I hurt you?"

Thanks. That is interesting. If I can compare them, could it be just an expression of love? The snow sledding scene is really sweet and does capture Ennis' initial relationship with Alma. In this, Ennis is the macho figure to protect his wife.

To make a connection between these two scenes, I will need to think about it more.  Or maybe others can shed some light on this.

[kcristob]

What strikes me about it is how rough the boys can play as opposed to male/female play.  It must be a relief to not always be concerned about hurting your partner.

I don't know...since I don't think anything in this movie is unintentional - it seems important.  I've always been struck by the snow scene and am trying to put my finger on why it's important.

[manila_rocks]

Ennis feels desperately "out of control" in his life.   Thus, his need to dominate and control others.
It appears any intimacy invokes rage.   

[jakeofrome]

After Ennis and Alma both fall in the snow, it is Alma starting the "fight". Interesting I'd say

[jamie]

I'm not sure if I see a strong connection between the two, but the first one is definitely a captivating scene because it shows how confused Ennis was -- after he found out they were leaving early, he was obviously devestated, and not, in my opinion, only because of the month of pay he'd be missing out on. So when Jack went up to get him and they started playing, I think he had been mulling it over long enough to be thinking things like "It's you that did this to me, it's you that's making me this way." I think it's a beautiful scene for the complex emotion it shows and evokes.

[austin]

Hi, All ~

I absolutely agree with Jamie's interpretation of the wrestling scene on BBM.  In fact, I was rather confused by the tenderness Ennis displays toward Alma both when they get married (he takes her face in his hand before kissing her) and during sledding (when he puts snow on her head and laughs).  Was that the only time he smiled with her?  I still don't have the script-movie copy yet, so I haven't read the motivations.  I really do want to read the script, because the move adds so much (well, obviously), but some scenes, to me, run counter to the emotional personas created in the short story. 

In terms of guessing about Ennis' emotions, the fight at the July 4th picnic, as well as Ennis' determination to hand off of the girls at the grocery store, both elicited frightened looks from Alma, which also made me wonder whether Ennis showed a temper at home.  Not a stretch, considering the way he grabs Alma's wrist in the kitchen after Thanksgiving.  His threat to her, in the ss, was much stronger, that he would make her and her new husband "eat the floor" or something to that effect.  However, the girls never seemed scared of him at all.

[bnjmn3]

The boys also were playful/wrestling when Aguirre saw them. Did not Ennis take his hat off while laying beside Jack, cover their faces and kiss him? Big contrast to what happened durign the lasso scene.

[justlikethisalways]

Did not Ennis take his hat off while laying beside Jack, cover their faces and kiss him?

Wow, I never noticed that ('only' seen it 6 times) -- I hope it's true! I thought they just fall to the ground and then we see Aguirre... Gotta go see it again now...darn just when I thought PBS was finally wearing off...!

[manila_rocks]

I did not notice this.    I am now most intrigued and shall watch for it and report back.

[bnjmn3]

Also during the wrestling scene, the scenery around Aguirre is the absolute ugliest of the film..dead tree, etc. I guess Ang really wants us to know Aguirre is a negative force.

[cybernaut]

Did not Ennis take his hat off while laying beside Jack, cover their faces and kiss him?

Wow, I never noticed that ('only' seen it 6 times) -- I hope it's true! I thought they just fall to the ground and then we see Aguirre... Gotta go see it again now...darn just when I thought PBS was finally wearing off...!

Yes, Ennis did. But when you have the best buddy to wrestle with, would you?  haha. :D

[camom]

Did not Ennis take his hat off while laying beside Jack, cover their faces and kiss him?

Wow, I never noticed that ('only' seen it 6 times) -- I hope it's true! I thought they just fall to the ground and then we see Aguirre... Gotta go see it again now...darn just when I thought PBS was finally wearing off...!

Yes, he did kiss him.  I love that scene, but it's so brief.  It does show that Jack and Ennis could be wrestling and horseplaying around in a loving way, without it becoming what it did on their last day on Brokeback, when Enni was so miserable without even knowing why.

I think Alma was frightened in the 4th of July scene maybe because she hadn't really seen too much of Ennis' temper exploding--although on the other hand, she does seem to be trying to placate him by saying "let's just move."  It's interesting that the girls don't seem to be afraid of  him at all.  If he was really that explosive at home, you'd think they'd want to stay away from him, but in the Thanksgiving scene, they run after him. 

camoom

[camom]

Also during the wrestling scene, the scenery around Aguirre is the absolute ugliest of the film..dead tree, etc. I guess Ang really wants us to know Aguirre is a negative force.

To be honest, I'm not sure that Aguirre is really that negative of a character.  He never gives any sign that he thinks poorly of them because of what he saw, at least not that I can remember.  He even waits until they're done before he rides down (that's in the short story).  He must have had a gun at the time, yet he didn't shoot at them, didn't yell at them, didn't call them derogatory names.  The worst he ever said was, "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good."  When he tells Jack there's no work for him next summer, he makes it clear why, but again, nothing really derogatory, just plain talk--and really, he's their employer.  They were hired to do a job and they didn't do a very good job because they were busy, ah, doing other things.  Aguirre's mad about that, sure, but where is he showing homophobia?  For all we know, this is happening every dang summer, and he's getting tired of it!   

I mean, seriously, someone tell me where Aguirre shows that he's angry over anything over than their neglect of the sheep.

camom

[Cowboy Cody]

Did not Ennis take his hat off while laying beside Jack, cover their faces and kiss him?

Wow, I never noticed that ('only' seen it 6 times) -- I hope it's true! I thought they just fall to the ground and then we see Aguirre... Gotta go see it again now...darn just when I thought PBS was finally wearing off...!

Yes, Ennis did. But when you have the best buddy to wrestle with, would you?  haha. :D

A cowboy would, gay or straight, when it comes to sex, the hat comes off, it's only polite to do so.

[cybernaut]

Cowboy Cody: Somehow there is a sexual tension in that wrestling. Ennis and Jack like it. And me too.. 

[kcristob]

To be honest, I'm not sure that Aguirre is really that negative of a character.  He never gives any sign that he thinks poorly of them because of what he saw, at least not that I can remember.  He even waits until they're done before he rides down (that's in the short story).  He must have had a gun at the time, yet he didn't shoot at them, didn't yell at them, didn't call them derogatory names.  The worst he ever said was, "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good."  When he tells Jack there's no work for him next summer, he makes it clear why, but again, nothing really derogatory, just plain talk--and really, he's their employer.  They were hired to do a job and they didn't do a very good job because they were busy, ah, doing other things.  Aguirre's mad about that, sure, but where is he showing homophobia?  For all we know, this is happening every dang summer, and he's getting tired of it!   

I mean, seriously, someone tell me where Aguirre shows that he's angry over anything over than their neglect of the sheep.

camom

Wow, interesting observations.  Certainly Aguirre's persona is meant to be symbolic of a segment of the population in the 60's - probably the majority of the population.   I remember being surprised at my first viewing that Aguirre did NOT do more than make a comment.   He really is pretty benign.  I do think there is an argument for his being homophobic in that he didn't hire Jack again AND he made the comment about finding ways to pass the time - both comments at the same time.  And he even very pointedly says "there's no work for YOU."  I think that's a reference to what he witnessed. 

But, he certainly could have been more evil than he was.  Good thoughts!

[alicat]

>>>Aguirre's mad about that, sure, but where is he showing homophobia?  For all we know, this is happening every dang summer, and he's getting tired of it!   

lol - yes, he's probably thinking 'oh hell, not this again - ranch hands wrestling each other and leaving the darn sheep to fend for themselves! lol

No I don't think Aguirre reacted to what he saw as much as I thought he would.  In fact, when he was shown watching them wrestling, I think he hardly reacted at all.  And he did not let them know he knew what was going on when he spoke to Jack about his uncle being ill.  One more thing: are we to assume they went on to have sex after they were wrestling each other and Aguirre saw this? Sorry, my dirty mind I know lol. 

[bnjmn3]

In her Story to Screen essay, Proulx discusses how this behavior manifested itself with these guys alone up in the mountains for long periods of time---with the knowledge that employers probably knew, too. The employers just wanted the work to get done. Aguirre's final scene in the trailer with Jack is filled with loathing...he belittles Jack terribly with sarcasm and the stem the rose bit.

[alicat]

I thought Randy Quaid was excellent as Aguirre.  And when he said to Jack 'You guys weren't getting paid to watch the dogs babysit the sheep while you stem the rose.'  I thought that was a very poetic line and quite a surprising turn of phrase.  As I said before, I don't think he reacted at all - when he was seen watching them wrestling, my thought was 'oh god, something awful is about to happen.' 

[tweric]

Also during the wrestling scene, the scenery around Aguirre is the absolute ugliest of the film..dead tree, etc. I guess Ang really wants us to know Aguirre is a negative force.

To be honest, I'm not sure that Aguirre is really that negative of a character.  He never gives any sign that he thinks poorly of them because of what he saw, at least not that I can remember.  He even waits until they're done before he rides down (that's in the short story).  He must have had a gun at the time, yet he didn't shoot at them, didn't yell at them, didn't call them derogatory names.  The worst he ever said was, "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good."  When he tells Jack there's no work for him next summer, he makes it clear why, but again, nothing really derogatory, just plain talk--and really, he's their employer.  They were hired to do a job and they didn't do a very good job because they were busy, ah, doing other things.  Aguirre's mad about that, sure, but where is he showing homophobia?  For all we know, this is happening every dang summer, and he's getting tired of it!   

I mean, seriously, someone tell me where Aguirre shows that he's angry over anything over than their neglect of the sheep.

camom

So true. I thought Aguirre's "mean" stare was bad enough :p Yet again, if he is like those "g-bashing" kinda guy, he may have call people to beat'em up or something.
I read Annie Proulx's essay in the "Story to Screenplay" that she mentioned a comment from an old sheep rancher. Basically, Ennis and Jack's behavior is "expected". So, I think, to Aguirre, he cares more about getting the job done than knowing the boys stemming the rose.

Oh, BTW, I only saw the boys's heads getting close after wrestling, hm.... 4th viewing!! hehehehe

[Rønnaug]

I think Aguirre is most pissed off about them leaving the sheep alone, as I sayd in another thread... but it's ironic... he hires them to break the rules then don't hire them again for breaking his rule that was brakeing the rules...

did that come out alright? I got dizzy writing it lol

And yes thay do kiss under that hat, the short story describes it as them just finished having sex and putting theyr cloths on so no wonder Ennis was playful

[gjz24]

Also during the wrestling scene, the scenery around Aguirre is the absolute ugliest of the film..dead tree, etc. I guess Ang really wants us to know Aguirre is a negative force.

To be honest, I'm not sure that Aguirre is really that negative of a character.  He never gives any sign that he thinks poorly of them because of what he saw, at least not that I can remember.  He even waits until they're done before he rides down (that's in the short story).  He must have had a gun at the time, yet he didn't shoot at them, didn't yell at them, didn't call them derogatory names.  The worst he ever said was, "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good."  When he tells Jack there's no work for him next summer, he makes it clear why, but again, nothing really derogatory, just plain talk--and really, he's their employer.  They were hired to do a job and they didn't do a very good job because they were busy, ah, doing other things.  Aguirre's mad about that, sure, but where is he showing homophobia?  For all we know, this is happening every dang summer, and he's getting tired of it!   

I mean, seriously, someone tell me where Aguirre shows that he's angry over anything over than their neglect of the sheep.

camom

So true. I thought Aguirre's "mean" stare was bad enough :p Yet again, if he is like those "g-bashing" kinda guy, he may have call people to beat'em up or something.
I read Annie Proulx's essay in the "Story to Screenplay" that she mentioned a comment from an old sheep rancher. Basically, Ennis and Jack's behavior is "expected". So, I think, to Aguirre, he cares more about getting the job done than knowing the boys stemming the rose.

Oh, BTW, I only saw the boys's heads getting close after wrestling, hm.... 4th viewing!! hehehehe

I read a article before. Some specialists said it did happen that cowboys/ranchers/constractors had sex in the midwest in the early/middle 90s. So I am thinking it was not first time that Aguirre saw two ranchers have fun together.

[Cowboy Cody]

Cybernaut - you are right. I shouldn't but I will. The bf and I wrestle around like that. I know what underlies that action....someone get me a fan...pronto!

[CherryCake]

I think Aguirre is most pissed off about them leaving the sheep alone, as I sayd in another thread... but it's ironic... he hires them to break the rules then don't hire them again for breaking his rule that was brakeing the rules...

That's right! Agurrie should not be one to go by rules here.  And Agguire ain't got no right to expect them to be on duty 24/7

[camom]

I think Aguirre is most pissed off about them leaving the sheep alone, as I sayd in another thread... but it's ironic... he hires them to break the rules then don't hire them again for breaking his rule that was brakeing the rules...

That's right! Agurrie should not be one to go by rules here.  And Agguire ain't got no right to expect them to be on duty 24/7

Ha, but he does expect them to be on duty all the time!  Well, except when the herder is in camp and supposed to be eating!    

Anyhow, I don't think Aguirre is a particularly pleasant character, and he certainly doesn't seem to care for ranch hands, but I don't see him being more homophobic than you would expect for the time.  If I wanted to show that part of his character more, I would've written in something nastier than "stemming the rose"--and if you look at it in context, that line is all about what they were getting paid for and not doing.  Ol' Aguirre is probably thinking, "Sh*t, next year I'm gonna have to go watch them sheep myself!" 

camom

[cybernaut]

The relationship between employers and employees always ends up with disparity, especially when employers do not listen to their employees feedback.

On the first part of the movie, Aguirre said there were 25% loss and he thinks staying with the sheeps would solve the problem... Well part of the problem, while Jack said to Ennis, there was a lightning fire that killed the sheep, "Thought I would fixated from the smell, Aguirre thought I control the weather".

And again, the weather (hail storm) posed a huge problem. I remember Jack saying the paint on sheep had come off but it was clear that the number of sheeps after the "separation" had become smaller and their size smaller as well.

Then again bosses are usually very self-centered...

But hey, if Ennis and Jack can end up being gay... What happens when Aguirre puts a ranch girl... 

[Cowboy Cody]

IMHO, I just wanted to take those binoculars and twist them around his neck till his head popped like a tick.