Author Topic: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?  (Read 62156 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2007, 07:27 AM »
Exactly tpe. This is the way I've understood the words:

" . . . for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

There wasn't anything in this exchange that they didn't know about each other already, they'd known each other 20 years. The only thing new here IMO was the fact that Ennis FINALLY admits he can't stand this any longer. However, what he plans on doin' about it is still unclear (i.e unresolved).

This is so true: the one thing that we finally see Ennis admit.  As much as we think that he dominated Jack, he himself was subject to his love for Jack.  So who dominated?  It becomes less clear, no?


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2007, 07:30 AM »
Exactly guys, IMO:  Ennis created the rules to ride it out for as long as they could stand it,  Jack made no rules, but felt if this how Ennis wanted so be it.   But it got too much for Jack, he had to push.  At this point it wasn't Ennis decision , the ball was in Jack's court now, the shift in power changed.

Yes, this is part of what I meant when I said that Ennis was subject to the power of his love for Jack.  The person who seemingly dominated was himself unable to dominate his own feelings after all.  IT became Jack's most powerful weapon -- but it also probably killed Jack deep inside, knowing that he had the power to bring Ennis to his knees.


Offline ksxks

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2007, 06:40 PM »
Oh, this is a beautiful discussion -- away a couple days and all this was going on.  Fantastic stuff, and so deep-down and true.  It's making me feel really sad at the moment, though, that this power-play never got to be worked out, as we can see it would have been if Jack hadn't died.

What everyone said, so true, the powerful dynamics going on between these two.  I can't say more, but I am filled with Ennis and Jack thoughts and feelings right now, thinking about them and the frustrations...when they really did love each other.  They weren't given the chance to figure out how they could love each other in the world...

And as to dominance, it is so not clear-cut.  I would just repeat everything that everyone just said.

Who has the power is usually the one who loves less than the other does -- but their situation was more complicated than that.

Sorry.  I'd love to respond to each post, but just wanted to say this discussion has been so good, all of you.

kathy
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manhattangirl

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2007, 04:55 AM »
Kathy I would love to hear what thoughts you have.

Yes, this is part of what I meant when I said that Ennis was subject to the power of his love for Jack.  The person who seemingly dominated was himself unable to dominate his own feelings after all.  IT became Jack's most powerful weapon -- but it also probably killed Jack deep inside, knowing that he had the power to bring Ennis to his knees.

tpe,

When Ennis brokedown in Jack's arms, Didn't Jack knew then how much he mattered to Ennis?    Jack was under this impression he really didn't matter that much to Ennis, that's why the lashing out towards Ennis.   Jack realized his impression about how Ennis felt about him was wrong.  Isn't that a good thing? 

Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2007, 07:14 AM »
Oh, this is a beautiful discussion -- away a couple days and all this was going on.  Fantastic stuff, and so deep-down and true.  It's making me feel really sad at the moment, though, that this power-play never got to be worked out, as we can see it would have been if Jack hadn't died.

What everyone said, so true, the powerful dynamics going on between these two.  I can't say more, but I am filled with Ennis and Jack thoughts and feelings right now, thinking about them and the frustrations...when they really did love each other.  They weren't given the chance to figure out how they could love each other in the world...

And as to dominance, it is so not clear-cut.  I would just repeat everything that everyone just said.

Who has the power is usually the one who loves less than the other does -- but their situation was more complicated than that.

Sorry.  I'd love to respond to each post, but just wanted to say this discussion has been so good, all of you.

kathy

Wonderful insight, kathy.  It is true that the one who loves less usually has the greater power.  And it is also true that the case of Ennis and Jack is more complicated.  I think what complicates things is Ennis's separation of how he feels versus how he thinks he should feel.  His reluctance to openly express his love for Jack made it appear that he loved Jack less.  This touches on a post I just made in another thread, where I said that Ennis is a person who thinks that he can "do without".   In this, he was not just fooling Jack: he was fooling only himself.  His conviction not to openly give in to his true feelings inevitably allowed despair to take mastery over him.  That is his greatest tragedy.


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2007, 07:20 AM »
Kathy I would love to hear what thoughts you have.

tpe,

When Ennis brokedown in Jack's arms, Didn't Jack knew then how much he mattered to Ennis?    Jack was under this impression he really didn't matter that much to Ennis, that's why the lashing out towards Ennis.   Jack realized his impression about how Ennis felt about him was wrong.  Isn't that a good thing? 

Perfectly said.  Both of them must have been taken aback at how Ennis "collapsed" under the weight of trying to keep all the pain and frustration inside of him.  At that moment, Jack realized that he could have demolished Ennis emotionally there and then -- but he didn't.  Jack also broke down, because it was never his intention to hurt Ennis.  The victim realized that he had become an aggressor, and Jack wanted no part of this.


manhattangirl

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2007, 08:33 AM »
This was always, I believe, was Jack's problem.  Ennis's feelings always came before his own.   I don't think if was so much as knowing Ennis's volatile personality,  but his refusal to  break Ennis's fragility.  Some would say this put Jack in position of power.

At the final confrontation, with Ennis on his knees, Jack could have easily said, "You're coming with me, or let's forget this now".   

It amazes me, how two men, with so little to go back to, after that one week of love, go back to their desolate lives.  Why?   How could they leave each other to go back to what?  Ennis's insisting on returning back to his solitary life, Jack staying in an unhappy marriage?

Jack could have easily taken control of the situation, and pushed harder, but he didn't.   Ennis, if the situation were reversed could have pushed Jack to that edge.   Jack's unwillingness to push Ennis over the edge to make him realize  what he had and could lose was not in Jack,   he did what just he did, held Ennis and reassured him it was alright.

It wasn't a physical dominance Ennis had over Jack, but an emotional one. 





   

Offline ethan

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2007, 11:50 AM »
Excellent discussion. Thanks so much for sharing your views on the complex relationship between Jack and Ennis.

Dominance exists in any type of relationship. I agree that each dominates at different time. A relationship with one-side dominance will not last long.

I am afraid that I don't have anything to add but just would like to thank you for such wonderful insights.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2007, 07:52 AM »
This was always, I believe, was Jack's problem.  Ennis's feelings always came before his own.   I don't think if was so much as knowing Ennis's volatile personality,  but his refusal to  break Ennis's fragility.  Some would say this put Jack in position of power.

At the final confrontation, with Ennis on his knees, Jack could have easily said, "You're coming with me, or let's forget this now".   

It amazes me, how two men, with so little to go back to, after that one week of love, go back to their desolate lives.  Why?   How could they leave each other to go back to what?  Ennis's insisting on returning back to his solitary life, Jack staying in an unhappy marriage?

Jack could have easily taken control of the situation, and pushed harder, but he didn't.   Ennis, if the situation were reversed could have pushed Jack to that edge.   Jack's unwillingness to push Ennis over the edge to make him realize  what he had and could lose was not in Jack,   he did what just he did, held Ennis and reassured him it was alright.

It wasn't a physical dominance Ennis had over Jack, but an emotional one.     

I do think Jack always put Ennis's wishes/feelings before his own.  I don't think he could have done otherwise, given how much he loved him.  I think this is not incomprehensible, given how much we ourselves accomodate the feelings and desires of those we deeply love.


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2007, 07:53 AM »
Excellent discussion. Thanks so much for sharing your views on the complex relationship between Jack and Ennis.

Dominance exists in any type of relationship. I agree that each dominates at different time. A relationship with one-side dominance will not last long.

I am afraid that I don't have anything to add but just would like to thank you for such wonderful insights.

It's usually the dynamic of give and take that makes or breaks a relationship, no?  Without this dymanic, a relationship is dead, IMO.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2007, 01:36 PM »
Well, Ennis didn't give as much as Jack - he was in many ways as unyielding as the rocks of the mountain, whereas Jack was more the grass rippling and moving in the wind. And in the end Ennis was still there, and Jack, like the grass, had been cut down.

manhattangirl

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2007, 05:01 AM »
I just can't help feeling that Jack was partly to blame for letting Ennis be so dominant in the relationship.   He enabled Ennis to control too much of what was going on between the two.   Following his lead, going along.   

But wasn't Jack always that way?   Lureen called the shots in their marriage, she controlled the money, and probably the bedroom.   Then there's Randall, who approached Jack, and did Jack give in to him too?   

Jack was finding acceptance where he could.  Ennis was the one he loved the most, but when Ennis didn't want him enough, he went to someone who did.     

« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 05:15 AM by manhattangirl »

Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2007, 06:52 AM »
Well, Ennis didn't give as much as Jack - he was in many ways as unyielding as the rocks of the mountain, whereas Jack was more the grass rippling and moving in the wind. And in the end Ennis was still there, and Jack, like the grass, had been cut down.

The rock and the grass bending before the wind.  Very apt images, WW.  Thank you.


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2007, 06:57 AM »
I just can't help feeling that Jack was partly to blame for letting Ennis be so dominant in the relationship.   He enabled Ennis to control too much of what was going on between the two.   Following his lead, going along.   

But wasn't Jack always that way?   Lureen called the shots in their marriage, she controlled the money, and probably the bedroom.   Then there's Randall, who approached Jack, and did Jack give in to him too?   

Jack was finding acceptance where he could.  Ennis was the one he loved the most, but when Ennis didn't want him enough, he went to someone who did.     



But did Jack really have a choice?  Clearly he was a disadvantage dealing with Lureen and her family.  AS for Randall, I think he was sincerely torn between a desire to explore this relatuionship with Randall, and staying true to his love for Ennis -- this explains the hesitancy.

And as for Ennis himself, we know that love has to act in both directions.  There was very little that Jack could do, barring threatening a break-up with Ennis, which was probably unthinkable for him for the greater part of his life.  I think this is the paradox of love -- one has to surrender in order to win.  In this sense, he had very little choice but to yield and wait -- hoping that Ennis would come around.  But what astonishes is the length of his wait -- it is commensurate to the magnitude of his love.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2007, 01:03 PM »
Jack was dominated by his father, his wife and her family, even Ennis - and of course by his love too, which caused him to complicate his whole life and twist it in ways he would probably not have done had he nver met Ennis.

Ennis, on the other hand, was never dominated by Alma or later Cassie, not I ythink by his llove for Jack. He spent his whole life trying to dominate his own emotions and in the process nearly destroyed his capacity to feel.

manhattangirl

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2007, 09:24 PM »
But did Jack really have a choice?  Clearly he was a disadvantage dealing with Lureen and her family.  AS for Randall, I think he was sincerely torn between a desire to explore this relatuionship with Randall, and staying true to his love for Ennis -- this explains the hesitancy.

And as for Ennis himself, we know that love has to act in both directions.  There was very little that Jack could do, barring threatening a break-up with Ennis, which was probably unthinkable for him for the greater part of his life.  I think this is the paradox of love -- one has to surrender in order to win.  In this sense, he had very little choice but to yield and wait -- hoping that Ennis would come around.  But what astonishes is the length of his wait -- it is commensurate to the magnitude of his love.

Jack had many choices, his love for Ennis anchored his heart and mind.   The choices were known to him, to leave Lureen or not, to give himself to Randall or not.  To leave Texas go to LF, or parts unknown, but any choices was view as it related to Ennis.  And Ennis anchored Jack without words, but with a return of a postcard.   The most free really wasn't.  You can say Ennis was in the prison of his fears, Jack was in prison for his love for him.   

Offline jetzenpolis

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2007, 10:27 PM »
What Did Ennis Jack See in Each Other?

Obviously physical attraction is necessary for any sexual interest. But, for a long-term relationship, more is necessary.  There must also be an emotional bond.

What was the attraction of Ennis's Jack's personalities to each other?

I think Jack was attracted to many of the same things in Ennis's character that were also what kept Ennis apart from Jack (preventing Ennis from becoming his ranch partner on Jack's parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY or seeking a more gay-friendly urban life in Denver, as Jack suggested in the Short Story).

Ennis tells Jack, in the Siesta Motel in 1967, that he learned that he was in love with Jack by the time Jack drove away in his pickup truck (after Ennis Jack came down from Brokeback Mt.).  But at the time he thought he was just suffering dry heaves from a hangover - with Annie Proulx adding that Ennis felt as if his intestines were being pulled out yard-by-yard and that he didn't feel better for a long time afterward.

It took Ennis about a year to figure out "what it is was" and by that time, he was already married to Alma.  He tells Jack that if knew then what he knew now (that he had fallen in love with Jack), he would have never left Jack out of his sight.

But now it was too late to change that.  Both of them were married and had children. They had to remain "decent."

Ennis was also afraid that if the "thing" (in other words, he and Jack being swept up in the euphoria of their kiss outside of Ennis's and Alma's apartment over the laundromat in Riverton, WY - the first time they had seen each other since Brokeback Mt., four summers ago) ever happened to them again, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, he and Jack would be dead.

Ennis then tells Jack how his father took him and his older brother to see the old gay rancher Earl's body lying mutilated in the ditch with Earl's penis pulled off and his face covered in welts from a tire iron.  Ennis was 9 years old.  Ennis's father laughed while showing them this.

Ennis believed his father would have killed both him and Jack, if he had been alive to find them together in their motel room. A ll that life could offer him and Jack was an opportunity to meet each other a couple of times a year.  It had to be done in way that no one would suspect their homosexuality.  They would "ride it as far as they could."  Ennis sums it all up and tells Jack, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."

Ennis is probably right about how violent, unyielding, and zealously unreasoning anti-homosexual bigotry can be.  His view is intellectually sound.  It's appropriately prudent given the attitudes of the often violent, conservative rural Wyoming society he and Jack lived in.  He sought to do what he thought would protect both him and Jack.

But this also was the source of their great emotional frustration. Ennis thought these unsatisfactory choices were necessary if they were to be able to survive.

I, myself, am torn between an admiration for Ennis's stoic philosophy of, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it," and a revulsion of the ruinous consequences such a philosophy can lead to (because of the many missed opportunities in life).  I also admire Ennis's protectiveness of Jack.  I also admire Ennis for his willingness to do what he thought was the "right thing to do," despite his emotions to the contrary.  I love Ennis for his vulnerability.

As Welschwitch said, Ennis could be unyielding is his decisions. Obviously, simply being obstinate does not show a "strength" of character, however.  Obstinacy is often misinterpreted as such, especially by those who find an authoritarian character appealing.

But in Ennis, it's something more than that.

I agree with tpe that Ennis uses his marriage, his alimony payments, preserving his visitation rights to his daughters, holding onto a job, etc. as an excuse to not live with Jack.  I also agree with tpe that Ennis keeps Jack further and further at arm's length (seeing him less frequently over the years) because he doesn't like the pressure he feels from Jack to live together. (Jack, of course, resents being kept on such a "short leash" by Ennis.)

But there is something noble about Ennis's refusal to abandon his wife and children, too.  Ennis saw both his Jack's marriages as an important commitment they made - even if they were homosexual and could never have emotional and sexual fulfillment from these heterosexual marriages.  Their wives and children were a commitment they could not abandon lightly.

Ennis may have been influenced in his opinion about this because of his own childhood: becoming an orphan when his parents died in a strange accident when they missed the only curve in 40 miles in the otherwise straight Deadhorse Road.

(I wonder if there could be some sexual metaphor here about Ennis's parents and a "curve" in what is mostly a "straight" road?  The times Ennis's parents lived in were even more homophobic than his own, of course.  The life stories of those who were homosexual in his parents' day was an even more closely kept secret than it was in Ennis's Jack's day, of course.  The history of homosexuality - or anything else - is often easily forgotten when it is never told.)

Ennis is protective of Jack.  He trades places with Jack on Brokeback Mt. in 1963.  He takes on the job of going to the herd camp, himself, after Jack complains how the tent there smells like "cat piss" and how he has to get up in the middle of the night to protect the sheep from being eaten by predators.  There is also the long two-hour ride between the cook camp and the herd camp.  Jack is also cold because he can't build a campfire at night in the herd camp.  If he lights a fire there, the Forest Service might find out.   His being in the herd camp breaks the Forest Service's rules.  But Joe Aguirre, the ranch manager, has ordered them to set themselves up in two separate camps: a cook camp and a herd camp.

Ennis doesn't complain.  He tells Jack he wouldn't mind trading places with Jack.

Ennis's generosity takes Jack by surprise.  He admires Ennis for this.

Remember Jack's favorite memory of Ennis: a 19 year old Ennis holding Jack from behind, rocking him into a trance, humming him a song from Ennis's "long ago" childhood, telling him it's time for cowboys to go to bed.  Jack's favorite memory of Ennis shows a concern for Jack's well-being and a pleasure in his company.

Ennis, was attracted to Jack's vulnerability rather than any "protection" Jack might offer him.  Ennis's happiest moments with Jack often seem to be when he teases him.

When Jack shows Ennis his rodeo trophy belt buckle, Ennis tells Jack how Ennis's father thought rodeo riders were "f*** ups" (if I heard that right).  Jack then begins leaping wildly up and down.  (Perhaps Jack startles Ennis, at first, when he does this.  This is another instance of a scene in the movie where my opinion of it seems to change each time I watch it.)

Ennis quickly realizes Jack is joking around.  Jack finally loses his balance, collapsing into a pile on the ground, while leaping. Ennis laughs, telling Jack, "I think maybe my dad was right."

It's the young Jack, 19 years old, with wavy hair and buck teeth, whom Ennis pictures in his dreams of Jack in his trailer at the end of the Short Story.  It's not the mature Jack that Ennis dreams about, with straight teeth and a mustache, who has filled out "through the shoulders and hams."  (This is an ambiguous description of Jack by Annie Proulx.  Jack is potentially more muscular as the years pass: thus, more masculine; thus, more "dominant."  But, as another possibility, he is perhaps simply fatter and overweight.)

In fact, when Jack attempts to become protective of Ennis, he is frequently met with Ennis's resistance, in one way or another.

Jack, of course, assumes the dominant position when he takes the risk of initiating sex with Ennis in the cook camp tent on Brokeback Mt.  But then Ennis quickly turns Jack around and performs anal sex on Jack.

When Jack attempts to staunch Ennis's nosebleed (caused accidentally by Jack's vigorous, "aggressive" actions), Ennis lays him flat with a surprise punch.  It is the last day they are on Brokeback Mt.

(In fact, Ennis tells Jack, in the Siesta Motel in Riverton, WY in 1967, that he believes that Jack might not have contacted him for four years after Brokeback Mt. because he thought Jack might still be angry with him for hitting Jack on the last day they were on Brokeback Mt.  Jack laughs, though, in response.  He tells Ennis that he'll watch out for him the next time.)

Perhaps, over time, we become more like what we admire in others, however slowly this occurs.

As Jack becomes more like what he finds most attractive in Ennis's personality, Jack may, in fact, have become less attractive to Ennis.  (Thus, Ennis becomes less willing to see Jack: only a couple of times of year, for what Jack calls a "few high altitude fucks," far away, in the wilderness, during a cold time of year.)

Ultimately, during their last argument on the barren shore of the mountain lake, in May 1983, Ennis tells Jack, "It's because of you that I'm like this...I'm nothing." 

He tells Jack he gave up all those jobs so he could be together with him more often during the earlier years.  Now he needs to keep his job to pay his alimony payments.

(However, Ennis neglects to mention that his daughters are also quickly approaching their "age of majority," eighteen years of age, when they will graduate from high school, and his alimony payments will no longer be a necessary legal burden.)

Jack believes him. (It's possible that Ennis was only telling Jack this - that he needed to keep "this" job - to mollify Jack. If Jack accepted this explanation Ennis was offering him, Ennis may have expected that they would continue seeing each other - as Ennis wanted - only a few times of year.)

Jack, in an act of great generosity toward his lover, decides to give Ennis what Jack thinks (perhaps mistakenly) he wants.  At this moment, Jack decides he must leave Ennis in order to accomplish this. There is a great sadness in Jack's eyes, after the movie returns to the present time from a flashback to Jack's favorite memory of Ennis (holding him from behind, rocking him into a trance, humming to him).

Annie Proulx explains in her Short Story that Jack was never fully conscious of the sexless hunger this (Ennis holding Jack from behind, rocking him, humming to him) satisfied in Jack.

My opinion of this scene seems to have changed each time I watched the movie.  As well as a great sadness, I have also seen a great determination in Jack's eyes (to leave Ennis), after the memory flashback ends, when I've watched it before.  Perhaps Jack realizes he needs to leave Ennis because its too heart-wrenching for him to continue with Ennis.

In the end, Ennis is not angry with Jack's decision to become ranch partners with his Texas ranch neighbor.

Jack's father tells him that Jack was no longer going to have Ennis del Mar as his ranch partner.  Jack's father has a general contempt for his son's ideas.  Ennis finds Jack's father to be a man with a "hard need" to be the "stud duck of the pond," a not uncommon type.

Perhaps Jack's father is angry with Ennis because he is disappointed that nobody will continue the family ranch.  I suspect Jack's father would have accepted a gay son living with his male lover if that's what it took to keep the Trick family ranch going in Lightning Flat, WY.

Ennis, at that moment, upon hearing that Jack's last plans were to have a Texas ranch neighbor to be his ranch parter "knew" (intuitively) that it was the "tire iron" that killed Jack.  (Ennis "knew" Jack was murdered for his being a homosexual.)

When Ennis's goes to Jack's boyhood bedroom, he finds the nook in the closet where Jack has hung the bloody shirts that Jack saved from their last day on Brokeback Mt. (when Jack accidentally caused Ennis's nose bleed).  Jack kept them as a memory of Brokeback Mt.

Jack's shirt holds Ennis's shirt inside of it.  (Jack's shirt holds Ennis's shirt in its "protective" embrace.)

Ennis no longer fights Jack's "protection."  He takes the shirts home with him, back to his trailer.  With a 30 cent postcard of Brokeback Mt. attached, he builds his memorial to Jack.
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

manhattangirl

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2007, 06:39 AM »
Ennis continue thought the years after the reunion to have a hold on Jack, from then on that "short leash" was around Jack's neck.  Ennis, no matter what changes never let Jack go.  And Jack continued to love him, no matter what changes Ennis was going through.

A lot has been mentioned about Ennis's unwillingness to abandoned his kids, and Alma. Alma remarried,  the kids living in house, not over the laundry, they were moving on with their lives,  but Ennis held fast to the idea of his commitments he brandish it to Jack every chance he got to hold him at bay,  we admire this, "how wonderful, you see he's a heck of a guy"   but what would we would have said if Cassie was the love interest and not Jack?   We wouldn't have this conversation because, well she a woman, and that's ok, the guy needs a life, a woman, and sex.   

But we're talking of Jack, and the reasons, and the whys are different now.   We admire Ennis Stoic nature, we give him credit for sticking with the idea of family.  We say Jack needed to be patient, he had to understand, Jack was as not family oriented as Ennis,  Ennis was after all an orphan.   Jack then is seen as a force trying to get Ennis from his noble mission, something that has to be put up with.  How convoluted this sounds.   Jack was just more true to himself then Ennis ever was. 

We give Heterosexuals a lot of leeway when it comes to commitment or non commitment, but for us, well the rules come into focus more, and our motives are questioned. 

Ennis held fast to the rules he made, and couldn't in the end live with it.  He wanted Jack, couldn't get pass the idea what was taught to him was wrong, that loving another man can cause his death, and should be hidden.  If Ennis couldn't get pass this idea then their was just the way they lived it.   

Jack wanted what we all want, to live in peace with the one we love, his unyeilding love for all those years are a testament to that love, like Ennis's grief.   


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2007, 06:53 AM »
Jack was dominated by his father, his wife and her family, even Ennis - and of course by his love too, which caused him to complicate his whole life and twist it in ways he would probably not have done had he nver met Ennis.

Ennis, on the other hand, was never dominated by Alma or later Cassie, not I ythink by his llove for Jack. He spent his whole life trying to dominate his own emotions and in the process nearly destroyed his capacity to feel.

Interesting.  I think I agree.  Especially in the part of Ennis struggling to dominate his inner self/feelings.


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2007, 06:59 AM »
Jack had many choices, his love for Ennis anchored his heart and mind.   The choices were known to him, to leave Lureen or not, to give himself to Randall or not.  To leave Texas go to LF, or parts unknown, but any choices was view as it related to Ennis.  And Ennis anchored Jack without words, but with a return of a postcard.   The most free really wasn't.  You can say Ennis was in the prison of his fears, Jack was in prison for his love for him.   

So it would appear that the anchor was both a blessing and a curse.  ALthough Ennis brought some stability into Jack's heart, it also tied him to the same place, with no hope of moving on.  This is what I meant by whether Jack had a choice or not.  Granted, he had all the choices you had mentioned, but did he really have the freedom to chose, given that that Ennis both anchored him and weighed him down?


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2007, 07:09 AM »
What Did Ennis Jack See in Each Other?

Obviously physical attraction is necessary for any sexual interest. But, for a long-term relationship, more is necessary.  There must also be an emotional bond.

What was the attraction of Ennis's Jack's personalities to each other?

I think Jack was attracted to many of the same things in Ennis's character that were also what kept Ennis apart from Jack (preventing Ennis from becoming his ranch partner on Jack's parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY or seeking a more gay-friendly urban life in Denver, as Jack suggested in the Short Story).

Ennis tells Jack, in the Siesta Motel in 1967, that he learned that he was in love with Jack by the time Jack drove away in his pickup truck (after Ennis Jack came down from Brokeback Mt.).  But at the time he thought he was just suffering dry heaves from a hangover - with Annie Proulx adding that Ennis felt as if his intestines were being pulled out yard-by-yard and that he didn't feel better for a long time afterward.

It took Ennis about a year to figure out "what it is was" and by that time, he was already married to Alma.  He tells Jack that if knew then what he knew now (that he had fallen in love with Jack), he would have never left Jack out of his sight.

But now it was too late to change that.  Both of them were married and had children. They had to remain "decent."

Ennis was also afraid that if the "thing" (in other words, he and Jack being swept up in the euphoria of their kiss outside of Ennis's and Alma's apartment over the laundromat in Riverton, WY - the first time they had seen each other since Brokeback Mt., four summers ago) ever happened to them again, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, he and Jack would be dead.

Ennis then tells Jack how his father took him and his older brother to see the old gay rancher Earl's body lying mutilated in the ditch with Earl's penis pulled off and his face covered in welts from a tire iron.  Ennis was 9 years old.  Ennis's father laughed while showing them this.

Ennis believed his father would have killed both him and Jack, if he had been alive to find them together in their motel room. A ll that life could offer him and Jack was an opportunity to meet each other a couple of times a year.  It had to be done in way that no one would suspect their homosexuality.  They would "ride it as far as they could."  Ennis sums it all up and tells Jack, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."

Ennis is probably right about how violent, unyielding, and zealously unreasoning anti-homosexual bigotry can be.  His view is intellectually sound.  It's appropriately prudent given the attitudes of the often violent, conservative rural Wyoming society he and Jack lived in.  He sought to do what he thought would protect both him and Jack.

But this also was the source of their great emotional frustration. Ennis thought these unsatisfactory choices were necessary if they were to be able to survive.

I, myself, am torn between an admiration for Ennis's stoic philosophy of, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it," and a revulsion of the ruinous consequences such a philosophy can lead to (because of the many missed opportunities in life).  I also admire Ennis's protectiveness of Jack.  I also admire Ennis for his willingness to do what he thought was the "right thing to do," despite his emotions to the contrary.  I love Ennis for his vulnerability.

As Welschwitch said, Ennis could be unyielding is his decisions. Obviously, simply being obstinate does not show a "strength" of character, however.  Obstinacy is often misinterpreted as such, especially by those who find an authoritarian character appealing.

But in Ennis, it's something more than that.

I agree with tpe that Ennis uses his marriage, his alimony payments, preserving his visitation rights to his daughters, holding onto a job, etc. as an excuse to not live with Jack.  I also agree with tpe that Ennis keeps Jack further and further at arm's length (seeing him less frequently over the years) because he doesn't like the pressure he feels from Jack to live together. (Jack, of course, resents being kept on such a "short leash" by Ennis.)

But there is something noble about Ennis's refusal to abandon his wife and children, too.  Ennis saw both his Jack's marriages as an important commitment they made - even if they were homosexual and could never have emotional and sexual fulfillment from these heterosexual marriages.  Their wives and children were a commitment they could not abandon lightly.

Ennis may have been influenced in his opinion about this because of his own childhood: becoming an orphan when his parents died in a strange accident when they missed the only curve in 40 miles in the otherwise straight Deadhorse Road.

(I wonder if there could be some sexual metaphor here about Ennis's parents and a "curve" in what is mostly a "straight" road?  The times Ennis's parents lived in were even more homophobic than his own, of course.  The life stories of those who were homosexual in his parents' day was an even more closely kept secret than it was in Ennis's Jack's day, of course.  The history of homosexuality - or anything else - is often easily forgotten when it is never told.)

Ennis is protective of Jack.  He trades places with Jack on Brokeback Mt. in 1963.  He takes on the job of going to the herd camp, himself, after Jack complains how the tent there smells like "cat piss" and how he has to get up in the middle of the night to protect the sheep from being eaten by predators.  There is also the long two-hour ride between the cook camp and the herd camp.  Jack is also cold because he can't build a campfire at night in the herd camp.  If he lights a fire there, the Forest Service might find out.   His being in the herd camp breaks the Forest Service's rules.  But Joe Aguirre, the ranch manager, has ordered them to set themselves up in two separate camps: a cook camp and a herd camp.

Ennis doesn't complain.  He tells Jack he wouldn't mind trading places with Jack.

Ennis's generosity takes Jack by surprise.  He admires Ennis for this.

Remember Jack's favorite memory of Ennis: a 19 year old Ennis holding Jack from behind, rocking him into a trance, humming him a song from Ennis's "long ago" childhood, telling him it's time for cowboys to go to bed.  Jack's favorite memory of Ennis shows a concern for Jack's well-being and a pleasure in his company.

Ennis, was attracted to Jack's vulnerability rather than any "protection" Jack might offer him.  Ennis's happiest moments with Jack often seem to be when he teases him.

When Jack shows Ennis his rodeo trophy belt buckle, Ennis tells Jack how Ennis's father thought rodeo riders were "f*** ups" (if I heard that right).  Jack then begins leaping wildly up and down.  (Perhaps Jack startles Ennis, at first, when he does this.  This is another instance of a scene in the movie where my opinion of it seems to change each time I watch it.)

Ennis quickly realizes Jack is joking around.  Jack finally loses his balance, collapsing into a pile on the ground, while leaping. Ennis laughs, telling Jack, "I think maybe my dad was right."

It's the young Jack, 19 years old, with wavy hair and buck teeth, whom Ennis pictures in his dreams of Jack in his trailer at the end of the Short Story.  It's not the mature Jack that Ennis dreams about, with straight teeth and a mustache, who has filled out "through the shoulders and hams."  (This is an ambiguous description of Jack by Annie Proulx.  Jack is potentially more muscular as the years pass: thus, more masculine; thus, more "dominant."  But, as another possibility, he is perhaps simply fatter and overweight.)

In fact, when Jack attempts to become protective of Ennis, he is frequently met with Ennis's resistance, in one way or another.

Jack, of course, assumes the dominant position when he takes the risk of initiating sex with Ennis in the cook camp tent on Brokeback Mt.  But then Ennis quickly turns Jack around and performs anal sex on Jack.

When Jack attempts to staunch Ennis's nosebleed (caused accidentally by Jack's vigorous, "aggressive" actions), Ennis lays him flat with a surprise punch.  It is the last day they are on Brokeback Mt.

(In fact, Ennis tells Jack, in the Siesta Motel in Riverton, WY in 1967, that he believes that Jack might not have contacted him for four years after Brokeback Mt. because he thought Jack might still be angry with him for hitting Jack on the last day they were on Brokeback Mt.  Jack laughs, though, in response.  He tells Ennis that he'll watch out for him the next time.)

Perhaps, over time, we become more like what we admire in others, however slowly this occurs.

As Jack becomes more like what he finds most attractive in Ennis's personality, Jack may, in fact, have become less attractive to Ennis.  (Thus, Ennis becomes less willing to see Jack: only a couple of times of year, for what Jack calls a "few high altitude f***s," far away, in the wilderness, during a cold time of year.)

Ultimately, during their last argument on the barren shore of the mountain lake, in May 1983, Ennis tells Jack, "It's because of you that I'm like this...I'm nothing." 

He tells Jack he gave up all those jobs so he could be together with him more often during the earlier years.  Now he needs to keep his job to pay his alimony payments.

(However, Ennis neglects to mention that his daughters are also quickly approaching their "age of majority," eighteen years of age, when they will graduate from high school, and his alimony payments will no longer be a necessary legal burden.)

Jack believes him. (It's possible that Ennis was only telling Jack this - that he needed to keep "this" job - to mollify Jack. If Jack accepted this explanation Ennis was offering him, Ennis may have expected that they would continue seeing each other - as Ennis wanted - only a few times of year.)

Jack, in an act of great generosity toward his lover, decides to give Ennis what Jack thinks (perhaps mistakenly) he wants.  At this moment, Jack decides he must leave Ennis in order to accomplish this. There is a great sadness in Jack's eyes, after the movie returns to the present time from a flashback to Jack's favorite memory of Ennis (holding him from behind, rocking him into a trance, humming to him).

Annie Proulx explains in her Short Story that Jack was never fully conscious of the sexless hunger this (Ennis holding Jack from behind, rocking him, humming to him) satisfied in Jack.

My opinion of this scene seems to have changed each time I watched the movie.  As well as a great sadness, I have also seen a great determination in Jack's eyes (to leave Ennis), after the memory flashback ends, when I've watched it before.  Perhaps Jack realizes he needs to leave Ennis because its too heart-wrenching for him to continue with Ennis.

In the end, Ennis is not angry with Jack's decision to become ranch partners with his Texas ranch neighbor.

Jack's father tells him that Jack was no longer going to have Ennis del Mar as his ranch partner.  Jack's father has a general contempt for his son's ideas.  Ennis finds Jack's father to be a man with a "hard need" to be the "stud duck of the pond," a not uncommon type.

Perhaps Jack's father is angry with Ennis because he is disappointed that nobody will continue the family ranch.  I suspect Jack's father would have accepted a gay son living with his male lover if that's what it took to keep the Trick family ranch going in Lightning Flat, WY.

Ennis, at that moment, upon hearing that Jack's last plans were to have a Texas ranch neighbor to be his ranch parter "knew" (intuitively) that it was the "tire iron" that killed Jack.  (Ennis "knew" Jack was murdered for his being a homosexual.)

When Ennis's goes to Jack's boyhood bedroom, he finds the nook in the closet where Jack has hung the bloody shirts that Jack saved from their last day on Brokeback Mt. (when Jack accidentally caused Ennis's nose bleed).  Jack kept them as a memory of Brokeback Mt.

Jack's shirt holds Ennis's shirt inside of it.  (Jack's shirt holds Ennis's shirt in its "protective" embrace.)

Ennis no longer fights Jack's "protection."  He takes the shirts home with him, back to his trailer.  With a 30 cent postcard of Brokeback Mt. attached, he builds his memorial to Jack.


Thanks jetzenpolis, you bring up so many pointe here.  I would only start by mentioning two.

It is true that Ennis resists Jack's protective overtures to him throughout Jack's life.  But as you outlined here in some detail, this refusal is not a simple question of dominance between the two of them.  At the core is the complexity of Ennis's own struggle to seek dominance over himself, as WW had mentioned earlier.

The second is the point about Jack's father being angry at Ennis.  Patriot1 had also mentioned this long ago, and I must admit that perhaps part of the issue on dominance (as far as Ennis was concerned) was the sense of being weighed down by expectations, both imagined and real.  Perhaps Ennis was reluctant because he was not up to realizing these expectations, or perhaps he felt inadequate.

It all boils down to a matter of confidence, which is a pendant to the will and desire to dominate.


Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2007, 07:15 AM »
Ennis continue thought the years after the reunion to have a hold on Jack, from then on that "short leash" was around Jack's neck.  Ennis, no matter what changes never let Jack go.  And Jack continued to love him, no matter what changes Ennis was going through.

A lot has been mentioned about Ennis's unwillingness to abandoned his kids, and Alma. Alma remarried,  the kids living in house, not over the laundry, they were moving on with their lives,  but Ennis held fast to the idea of his commitments he brandish it to Jack every chance he got to hold him at bay,  we admire this, "how wonderful, you see he's a heck of a guy"   but what would we would have said if Cassie was the love interest and not Jack?   We wouldn't have this conversation because, well she a woman, and that's ok, the guy needs a life, a woman, and sex.   

But we're talking of Jack, and the reasons, and the whys are different now.   We admire Ennis Stoic nature, we give him credit for sticking with the idea of family.  We say Jack needed to be patient, he had to understand, Jack was as not family oriented as Ennis,  Ennis was after all an orphan.   Jack then is seen as a force trying to get Ennis from his noble mission, something that has to be put up with.  How convoluted this sounds.   Jack was just more true to himself then Ennis ever was. 

We give Heterosexuals a lot of leeway when it comes to commitment or non commitment, but for us, well the rules come into focus more, and our motives are questioned. 

Ennis held fast to the rules he made, and couldn't in the end live with it.   He wanted Jack, couldn't get pass the idea what was taught to him was wrong, that loving another man can cause his death, and should be hidden.  If Ennis couldn't get pass this idea then their was just the way they lived it.   

Jack wanted what we all want, to live in peace with the one we love, his unyeilding love for all those years are a testament to that love, like Ennis's grief.   



Very good and insightful post, manhattangirl.  I think this is also what I meant when I said that at issue here was the struggle of Ennis within himself.  He tried to stand by his rules, but at the same time probably realized that all this was untenable. 

And yes, I think what you say is a big part of the reason why we empathize with Jack on this issue.  For us today, his desires were not unreasonable.  What he wanted was what most human beings desire in their heart of hearts.  It was not a question of dominance -- it was a question of being able to live one's dream.

 

Offline welshwitch

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2007, 05:49 AM »
In the end they come to a deadlock; in fact they more or less become what Aguirre first describes them as " a pair of deuces going nowhere".

Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2007, 06:47 AM »
In the end they come to a deadlock; in fact they more or less become what Aguirre first describes them as " a pair of deuces going nowhere".

A very apt forshadowing of what was to come.

It was clearly a test of wills, and Jack probably was at the short end of it all. 

Ennis certainly had Jack at his beck and call, and Jack probably did not mind this so long as there was hope of turning Ennis around.  It was this hope that became the instrument by which Ennis came to dominate Jack, so to speak.  And yet, Ennis himself was dominated by a love that he could not express and live openly; and thus, this love for Jack became the instrument upon which Ennis indecision and inner torment were built upon.

In this sense, it truly is an impasse.

 

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2007, 08:03 AM »
 I think this love dominated them both, I don't reaaly think Ennis dominated Jack or vice-verse.in any physical way , but emotionally, it's adifferent story.I think it was the inability of both of them to comphrehend  this love which pulled them in every direction but loose.Ennis referred to it as "this thing".  A love like this can make a fool out of anyone, and yet you can't control the way you feel.  It can command you to  patiently wait, as Jack surely did, or cause denial ,  confusion and hurt as Ennis did.  With Ennis , it is the openess of this thing that Jack wanted.  In this sense society dominated them too. They both grappled with the uncontrollable effects of it. Jack looked at it for what good could result and Ennis saw the bad. It did indeed become an impasse. But what could break it? The threat of breaking up? Another serious lover? It's the same question coming back. What would it take for Ennis to give into this love and allow it  to florish in it's natual order and stop fighting it? How long could Jack's patience be tested? Apparently, Jack blinked first and when he did, Ennis had to come clean concerning his own philosophy " I can't stand this anymore Jack" . Maybe this meant he had to stop fighting it , and standing it and start fixing himself and the love they had for each other.I SO wish that Jack had survived to meet at Pine Creek . I'd have paid to hear THIS conversation.MO
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2007, 11:23 AM »
I think this love dominated them both, I don't reaaly think Ennis dominated Jack or vice-verse.in any physical way , but emotionally, it's adifferent story.I think it was the inability of both of them to comphrehend  this love which pulled them in every direction but loose.Ennis referred to it as "this thing".  A love like this can make a fool out of anyone, and yet you can't control the way you feel.  It can command you to  patiently wait, as Jack surely did, or cause denial ,  confusion and hurt as Ennis did.  With Ennis , it is the openess of this thing that Jack wanted.  In this sense society dominated them too. They both grappled with the uncontrollable effects of it. Jack looked at it for what good could result and Ennis saw the bad. It did indeed become an impasse. But what could break it? The threat of breaking up? Another serious lover? It's the same question coming back. What would it take for Ennis to give into this love and allow it  to florish in it's natual order and stop fighting it? How long could Jack's patience be tested? Apparently, Jack blinked first and when he did, Ennis had to come clean concerning his own philosophy " I can't stand this anymore Jack" . Maybe this meant he had to stop fighting it , and standing it and start fixing himself and the love they had for each other.I SO wish that Jack had survived to meet at Pine Creek . I'd have paid to hear THIS conversation.MO

Well said, aintfoolin.

this love dominated them both -- perfect.


Offline jetzenpolis

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2007, 08:01 PM »
Ennis: Jack (Who Ennis Loves) vs. Alma (Who Ennis iss Willing to Live Together with Permanently)

If you want to know what it would take for Ennis to live with somebody, look at who he was willing to continue living with - despite the ups & downs of their relationship, despite its ongoing deterioration (from growing ever farther apart): Alma.

Obviously, Ennis is in love with Jack.  Ennis is sexually excited by Jack in a way in which Alma, nor any other woman, can (because Ennis is homosexual, of course - nothing more needed to say, there). 

But it is Alma whom Ennis would be willing to go on living together with, not Jack.  Is it because he's so afraid of public exposure of his homosexuality (in the violently anti-homophobic rural Wyoming of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s...and perhaps still much the same today) that he is willing to put up with a sham marriage in order to provide himself with "plausible deniability" if anyone accuses him of homosexuality?  (Ennis could then respond with "but I'm married"! to any such accusations.)

I believe there is something more to his affections toward Alma than this.  In fact, perhaps because he is homosexual, there is less of a distraction of physical appearance (sexual arousal, in other words) upon Ennis's feelings for Alma.

If Ennis is attracted to Alma's personality - enough that he is willing to continue to live together until Alma (not Ennis) decides to get a divorce, then what is it about Alma's personality that he finds attractive?

I believe there is something cool-headed, rational, and practical about Alma that appeals to Ennis.  Alma is certainly more interested in financial stabiliity (and prosperity) then Ennis, for example.  It's Alma who suggests jobs that might give Ennis more pay than his ranch hand job. 

I'm not saying that Alma is right and Ennis is wrong.  Obviously, I think it's important for Ennis to do the work he enjoys, what he thinks he does best.  In the movie, Ennis says work is the one thing life has left for him since the homophobic Wyoming culture he lives is not about to leave him alone to pursue the romantic life he might otherwise choose for himself.

Alma also seems to realize this, too - at least at some level.  She finally stops making suggestions to Ennis about new better-paying jobs he could take and decides to get her own job (at the grocery store) to supplement her family's finances.  (I believe Ennis admires her for her independence, too - not just financially but also for having an independent mind.)

There's something about Alma that may complete some part of his life, though, despite his being homosexual.  (Ennis, again looking at money, is less wise about it than Alma seems to be.)

Alma may also need Ennis to complete some part of herself, too.  Look at Alma's face at the start of their Thanksgiving meal.  She is living in the house she & Ennis bought after they moved out of their apartment over the laundromat but now married to her second husband, Monroe, the grocer.  Monroe is slicing the Thanksgiving turkey with a noisy electric carving knife (that was popular in the 1970s).  Alma looks both irritated and bored.  She seems utterly bored with Monroe.  (Boredom is always experienced as a restlessness I think.  Such restlessness is always irritable in some way.)  Alma may have been upset and dissapointed by Ennis many times but she was never bored with him (because she loved him and still does).
 
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline tpe

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2007, 07:11 AM »
Ennis: Jack (Who Ennis Loves) vs. Alma (Who Ennis iss Willing to Live Together with Permanently)

If you want to know what it would take for Ennis to live with somebody, look at who he was willing to continue living with - despite the ups & downs of their relationship, despite its ongoing deterioration (from growing ever farther apart): Alma.

Obviously, Ennis is in love with Jack.  Ennis is sexually excited by Jack in a way in which Alma, nor any other woman, can (because Ennis is homosexual, of course - nothing more needed to say, there). 

But it is Alma whom Ennis would be willing to go on living together with, not Jack.  Is it because he's so afraid of public exposure of his homosexuality (in the violently anti-homophobic rural Wyoming of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s...and perhaps still much the same today) that he is willing to put up with a sham marriage in order to provide himself with "plausible deniability" if anyone accuses him of homosexuality?  (Ennis could then respond with "but I'm married"! to any such accusations.)

I believe there is something more to his affections toward Alma than this.  In fact, perhaps because he is homosexual, there is less of a distraction of physical appearance (sexual arousal, in other words) upon Ennis's feelings for Alma.

If Ennis is attracted to Alma's personality - enough that he is willing to continue to live together until Alma (not Ennis) decides to get a divorce, then what is it about Alma's personality that he finds attractive?

I believe there is something cool-headed, rational, and practical about Alma that appeals to Ennis.  Alma is certainly more interested in financial stabiliity (and prosperity) then Ennis, for example.  It's Alma who suggests jobs that might give Ennis more pay than his ranch hand job. 

I'm not saying that Alma is right and Ennis is wrong.  Obviously, I think it's important for Ennis to do the work he enjoys, what he thinks he does best.  In the movie, Ennis says work is the one thing life has left for him since the homophobic Wyoming culture he lives is not about to leave him alone to pursue the romantic life he might otherwise choose for himself.

Alma also seems to realize this, too - at least at some level.  She finally stops making suggestions to Ennis about new better-paying jobs he could take and decides to get her own job (at the grocery store) to supplement her family's finances.  (I believe Ennis admires her for her independence, too - not just financially but also for having an independent mind.)

There's something about Alma that may complete some part of his life, though, despite his being homosexual.  (Ennis, again looking at money, is less wise about it than Alma seems to be.)

Alma may also need Ennis to complete some part of herself, too.  Look at Alma's face at the start of their Thanksgiving meal.  She is living in the house she & Ennis bought after they moved out of their apartment over the laundromat but now married to her second husband, Monroe, the grocer.  Monroe is slicing the Thanksgiving turkey with a noisy electric carving knife (that was popular in the 1970s).  Alma looks both irritated and bored.  She seems utterly bored with Monroe.  (Boredom is always experienced as a restlessness I think.  Such restlessness is always irritable in some way.)  Alma may have been upset and dissapointed by Ennis many times but she was never bored with him (because she loved him and still does).
 

Interesting comments here, jetzenpolis.  Your interpretation of the thanksgiving scene is new to me, and I would think it plausible. 

So if I understand you correctly, it was not really an issue of dominance between Ennis and Jack.  Rather, what some of us think is a manifestation of Ennis trying to fend off Jack is simply Ennis expressing his innate love of pragmatism/practicality and independence.  One can indeed say that this is manifested clearly in his choice of Alma as a life partner. 


Offline jetzenpolis

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2007, 06:58 PM »
In the end they come to a deadlock; in fact they more or less become what Aguirre first describes them as " a pair of deuces going nowhere".

I love your comment welshwitch, "a pair of deuces going nowhere."  Well said.  It expresses perfectly the frustration you feel with Ennis & Jack (while at the same time wishing the best for them).  It's a frustration they often seemed to feel themselves.
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline jetzenpolis

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Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2007, 07:57 PM »


So if I understand you correctly, it was not really an issue of dominance between Ennis and Jack.  Rather, what some of us think is a manifestation of Ennis trying to fend off Jack is simply Ennis expressing his innate love of pragmatism/practicality and independence.  One can indeed say that this is manifested clearly in his choice of Alma as a life partner. 



Yes, tpe, I think that Ennis's efforts of trying to "fend off" Jack is not primarily a question of Ennis's fear of a public exposure of his homosexuality.  Instead, I think he tries to keep Jack at a distance because of the (growing) differences in their personalities.  I think it is possible to be in love with someone and also realize (intuitively) you can't live together. 

Ennis falls deeply in love with Jack.  He feels emotions for Jack he never knew could exist.  But these emotions can not overcome the suspicion that it is not possible for him to live together with Jack under any circumstances - not even if all of Wyoming became more gay-friendly than San Francisco or Amsterdam, not even if he had never married Alma or had children, not even if Ennis had no more fears of being found out as  gay.

There is a distance between them that can't be bridged.  In fact, it is the distance between what Ennis "knows" and what he "tries to believe" - As Annie Proulx puts it in the second to last line of her Short Story.

I'm not certain what it is that Ennis sees as separating him from Jack.  Whatever it is, it makes it impossible for Ennis to feel it would be "right" to live with Jack.

One way of attempting to resolve this question is to ask another question.  If Ennis isn't willing to live with Jack (whom he's in love with), who is Ennis willing to live with?  Alma is the obvious answer.  (Ennis also lived with his brother, K.E., before K.E. got married.)  Alma is, as you say, his "life partner." Ennis chose her, out of all women, to get married to.  He lived with her for twelve years (from their marriage in November 1963 until there divorce in November 1975).  In the Short Story, Annie Proulx, says it is Alma, not Ennis, who "had enough" and got a divorce.  (Alma may have been having an affair with Monroe, the grocer.  Annie Proulx says that Ennis felt "vaguely cheated" by the divorce.)

Certainly Ennis is afraid of an exposure of his homosexuality because he knows all too well what can happen "to fellas like us" and "boy like you" (as he refers obliquely to his and Jack's homosexuality).  Ennis fears being beaten, mutilated, and murdered - just as the old rancher Earl was, with Ennis even suspecting that his own father might have committed the murder (and then, laughing, showed his sons, Ennis, age 9, and K.E., age 11, Earl's dead body laying in the irrigation ditch).  That certainly left an impression on Ennis.  How could it be otherwise?

I think Ennis was also afraid of the psychological consequences of his public exposure as a homosexual.  What sort of change might result in his perception of himself (his own image of himself) as a result of his being publically identified homosexual, in other words?

Domination is an issue between Ennis & Jack, but it's not the main one.  (Again, the main issue, in my opinion, is the difference in their personalities that prevents Ennis from living with Jack.)  Ennis does psychologically dominate the relationship.  First, he decides how frequently he & Jack will see each other.  (Since such meetings are necessarily consensual, agreeable to both, Jack must follow Ennis's lead here.)  Second, Ennis takes advantage of Jack's own self-doubts in order to silence Jack when ever Jack becomes critical of the status quo between Ennis & Jack.  When Jack suggests that they might live together as ranch parents on Jack's parents' ranch or even that Ennis might get out of Wyoming (after Ennis wonders aloud if Jack has ever thought people might "know" if someone is homosexual just passing by as strangers) and move to Texas, Ennis typically begins to accuse Jack of being a "dreamer" who lacks "realism."

But if Ennis uses dominance, it's largely as a self-defense measure.  I don't think he actively seeks to dominates others for the sake of his putting himself in a position of dominance over them.  For example, when he grabs Alma by the arm and twists it during their argument in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner, he does so because he's afraid Alma's about to put into words what she's thinking (what they both know she's thinking): Ennis & Jack had sex together on their "fishing trip."

After Ennis breaks down and begins to cry during their May 1983 argument, saying to Jack "Because of you I'm this way...nothing), Jack rushes to hold Ennis in his arms.  Ennis, at first, breaks free.  But then Ennis relents.  He lets Jack hold him in his arms.  He allows Jack to take the obviously dominant, protective postion. 

Perhaps, when Ennis says "I can't take this anymore," he's not talking about ending his "ride" with Jack.  (After all, Ennis sends Jack a postcard saying they can meet in November.  Ennis is still very interested in seeing Jack again.)  Rather, Ennis could be thinking about the way he's behaved toward Jack (accusing Jack of a lack of "realism," eroding Jack's self-confidence).  Ennis could also think of the way he's behaved toward himself (seeking to pretend he's not homosexual).

There seems to be some change in Ennis after their May 1983 argument.  The mask (of a false "hardbitten," "cynical" public appearance covering up the emotions they feel underneath) that Ennis begins wearing after his divorce from Alma falls away.  Ennis again becomes "vulnerable" (just as he was when he was nineteen years old with Jack on Brokeback Mt.). 
 
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.