Topic: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?

[manhattangirl]

Jack and Ennis were partners, friends, and lovers.  They proved to work well together, enjoy drinking and talking with each, and they loved each other deeply.   

The question I have that's always lingering in the back of mind, was there ever a question of dominance between the two?   

Before the FNIT you could call them "buddies",  not a threat to one another, no power plays made.   But from the FNIT to the Final Confrontation the dynamic of their relationship changed.   Ennis exerted his will on Jack on how thing were going to go sexually and emotionally, the when, and the where, but Jack in turn exerted his will initiating these moments to happen, sexually, emotionally.  In every relationship there is, whether we admitted or not, a power game is going on. The struggle between Jack and Ennis was a constant battle. 

Does this question dominance applies to them?    Was dominance  between Jack and Ennis interchangeable?   If one was a dominate force who was it? 

[tpe]

Hello manhattangirl !

Excellent topic, as I have harbored thoughts about this for some time.  I shall tantalize you by saying that I will try to collect my ideas about this and post them tomorrow morning.  I think this topic promises to be most interesting...

[lamusica]

This is a good thread, manhattagirl.  I have thought about it many times, especially since the thread about how they saw each other.  At this point in time, I think they both were dominant at different times.  Jack the FNIT and SNIT; Ennis at the reunion; Ennis at the post-divorce scene; Jack at the final scene together.  It will be interesting to see how others see this. Personally, I think the reason they got on so well for so long was because they were able to let the other guy be dominant from time to time.  Neither of them had to be boss all the time. Sort of a nutual respect thing going on here.

[tpe]

Hello again, manhattagirl.

The question has been raised before on whether the relationship was in some sense abusive -- at least in the phychological or emotional sense.  Although I personally don't think so, I do think that a struggle for control over the relationship was always at play.

At the heart of it is, IMO, Jack's desire to move on to the next level.  As you had noted, it is the primary behicle by which Jack sought to express his will on how the relationship is to go forward.  His deference to Ennis would make it seem that in spite of this desire, he submitted himself and his dream to Ennis's will.  But it is really not as simple as that. no? 

From his own standpoint, Ennis was constantly feeling the pressure from Jack to live with him -- something that Ennis felt was not only unwise but detremental to the survival of the relationship.  Although he constantly rebuffed Jack's overtures, he must have felt the pressure over the years, even though Jack probably never mentioned his desires explicitly after the reunion.  MY suspicion is that this feeling of being pressured is part of the reason why Ennis tried to see less of Jack over the years.

So, IMO, the struggle for control between Ennis and Jack always lurked below the surface of things -- never really disappearing, and in fact becoming more and more acute after each passing year.  It was probably a source of great dissatisfaction for both of them, and each saw it as if the other had more control over it.

It is easier to appreciate the point of view that Jack was largely on the receiving end of things, and that Ennis had him on a short leash.  To a great extent, this is true.  But we should also appreciate things from the point of view of a reluctant Ennis, who probably felt himself under constant pressure to acquiese.  I think it is their not fully understanding the point of view of the other that gradually led to the painful confrontation in their last meeting.  Although things were torqued back in the end, perhaps each had gained some unique insight into why theis struggle was meant to go unresolved.  In the DOzy Embrace recollection, it seemed that Jack did in fact finally resign himself to the realization that rare moments of equilibrium in that constant struggle were perhaps the moments when he was most happy and contented.

[manhattangirl]

Hi tpe,

I read your post over and over,  it's great, thanks for responding.

Let me start by saying I had no great sympathy Ennis, I thought him weak.  The only two things I've seen him do for Jack was call Lureen after the his postcard  was returned, and go to Jack's parents ranch.   I said to myself, "Oh, now you're doing something for your lover of so many years."  It took me a long while to really look at his motives for his actions.

He loved Jack, I don't doubt that.   His fear of their relationship being found out to me had to be more than that, whether he realized or not. 

It's been written how this character was a laconic western figure, in the tradition of  a "Gary Cooper" type,  to me a "Gary Cooper" type in need of mood altering drugs.  (sorry that was a cheap shot.).   

Ennis's very nature was developed years before he met Jack.  Losing his parents, being shuffled from one sibling to another, than abandoned totally, this alone could make a person unable to grow close to anyone.   

His father showing the body of Earl, to me sealed his fate.   To see something like could impact any child.  But for Ennis it may have just shut down that ability to even acknowledge  himself,  whether he was gay or not is to me is question that couldn't be answer because his true sexual self never really emerges.   I mean "this could happen to boys like you. ",  So Ennis became a very careful child, careful young man, and now a careful adult.

Because of his caution,  he leads a solitary life, his need for Jack runs directly against that.  Here is where I think the tension lay, and the fight for  control begins. 
 

[tpe]

Hello manhattangirl. 

Hi tpe,

I read your post over and over,  it's great, thanks for responding.

Let me start by saying I had no great sympathy Ennis, I thought him weak.  The only two things I've seen him do for Jack was call Lureen after the his postcard  was returned, and go to Jack's parents ranch.   I said to myself, "Oh, now you're doing something for your lover of so many years."  It took me a long while to really look at his motives for his actions.

He loved Jack, I don't doubt that.   His fear of their relationship being found out to me had to be more than that, whether he realized or not. 

It's been written how this character was a laconic western figure, in the tradition of  a "Gary Cooper" type,  to me a "Gary Cooper" type in need of mood altering drugs.  (sorry that was a cheap shot.).   

Ennis's very nature was developed years before he met Jack.  Losing his parents, being shuffled from one sibling to another, than abandoned totally, this alone could make a person unable to grow close to anyone.   

His father showing the body of Earl, to me sealed his fate.   To see something like could impact any child.  But for Ennis it may have just shut down that ability to even acknowledge  himself,  whether he was gay or not is to me is question that couldn't be answer because his true sexual self never really emerges.   I mean "this could happen to boys like you. ",  So Ennis became a very careful child, careful young man, and now a careful adult.

Because of his caution,  he leads a solitary life, his need for Jack runs directly against that.  Here is where I think the tension lay, and the fight for  control begins. 
 

Ennis is certainly a more tragic figure than a sympathetic one. I find Jack a much more sympathetic figure.  But I must admit that it is hard not to sympathize with Ennis in the end. 

I have always thought of Ennis as a wonderful anti-hero: a man who dominates the lives of others (Jack, Alma, Cassie) and yet refuses to make his move and bring things to fruition.  It is this weakness in the face of the power to dominate and decide things that captivates and repels us at the same time. 

In some sense, Ennis's fate in the end is self-inflicted, self-determined.  But as in anti-heroes, the weakness at the root of tragedy becomes something that makes him appear so totally human.

To see Ennis as both a dominant but passive element in the story  is what gives it that ambiguous, unresolved feeling.  It makes us appreciate the conflicting elements that reside in each one of us.

Jack is of course, the much more sympathetic figure, and certainly the more active.  He was totally subject to his love for Ennis.  One cannot appreciate the dymanic of the relationship without first appreciating the ironies inherent in it: dominance and passivity, acquiescence and activity.  It is the stuff of great tragedy.

[manhattangirl]

This is what we see and we know in the story.  Ennis used his ability of dominating, he used it on Alma, but with Jack, the dominance took almost an enslavement of Jack.   Alma was a loss that Ennis accepted, but the loss of Jack was unthinkable.   

To hold him, and continue the facade of "straight man"  was a process that was held together so precariously that a slight shift in appearance or word could bring it down.  Ennis never thought of being without Jack.  Jack was his. 

To hold Jack is to dominate him, to ensure this he loosen or tighten his grip on him.   Ennis always knew he'd come back to him.

[tpe]

This is what we see and we know in the story.  Ennis used his ability of dominating, he used it on Alma, but with Jack, the dominance took almost an enslavement of Jack.   Alma was a loss that Ennis accepted, but the loss of Jack was unthinkable.   

To hold him, and continue the facade of "straight man"  was a process that was held together so precariously that a slight shift in appearance or word could bring it down.  Ennis never thought of being without Jack.  Jack was his. 

To hold Jack is to dominate him, to ensure this he loosen or tighten his grip on him.   Ennis always knew he'd come back to him.

I think Ennis also thought of this as something totally outside of himself.  He, like Jack, also felt enslaved, because Ennis probably thought that he had to suppress his own feelings.  As Jackster had said elsewhere, Ennis probably saw no other way around this.

This is also what I meant in the last post: the tragedy of Ennis is not recognizing that the power to change was within him.  He dominated Jack, albeit unknowingly, perhaps...  Unwittingly, perhaps...

[aintfoolin]

Indeed Ennis is the anti hero. We see his vulnerability beneath his hard shell. Underneath is a very scared man A man with feelings of fear and abandonment, yet we can see his sacrifices for the one he loved. He is someone who expresses himself more through his actions. His love is so deep that he gives up his family, jobs and a *normal life for Jack. I see him as someone who does'nt respond favorlibly to being pressure though. The more he is forced, the more he pulls back Yes, he dominated the direction of the affair, but I am of a strong beleif that Jack could be dominated as much as he allowed himself to be. Of course Ennis is going to steer this thing in that direction that best suits him. why? because jack allowed it. It must have warmed Jack's heart to hear Ennis say " aint no reins on this one" This says that He has gotten through to Ennis concerning Ennis's uncontrollible feelings for him. It told Jack that he  could no longer deny what he felt for him. "this one" was important as opposed to Alma. IMO jack never took advantage of this confession from Ennis as he could have. He could brought Ennis closer  to his way of thinking by communicating verbally with him in a firmer way. I think Ennis is someone who respects  that. A firm yet gentle approach to Ennis fear I feel was the key.Meeting Ennis a couple times a year was Ennis's way of keeping a distance between them, exerting his dominance over Jack, but Jack went along and allowed Ennis to establish a pattern of dictating the pace of the relationship making it harder for him to accomplish what he wanted. Thus the constant battle for the upper hand. IMO it is a delicate balancing act , as Ennis is easily spooked but Jack had something to work with here. Ennis's undisputed feelings of  deep love for him,  but Jack's approach must be reassuring , gentle ....and  firm.

[tpe]

Indeed Ennis is the anti hero. We see his vulnerability beneath his hard shell. Underneath is a very scared man A man with feelings of fear and abandonment, yet we can see his sacrifices for the one he loved. He is someone who expresses himself more through his actions. His love is so deep that he gives up his family, jobs and a *normal life for Jack. I see him as someone who does'nt respond favorlibly to being pressure though. The more he is forced, the more he pulls back Yes, he dominated the direction of the affair, but I am of a strong beleif that Jack could be dominated as much as he allowed himself to be. Of course Ennis is going to steer this thing in that direction that best suits him. why? because jack allowed it. It must have warmed Jack's heart to hear Ennis say " aint no reins on this one" This says that He has gotten through to Ennis concerning Ennis's uncontrollible feelings for him. It told Jack that he  could no longer deny what he felt for him. "this one" was important as opposed to Alma. IMO jack never took advantage of this confession from Ennis as he could have. He could brought Ennis closer  to his way of thinking by communicating verbally with him in a firmer way. I think Ennis is someone who respects  that. A firm yet gentle approach to Ennis fear I feel was the key.Meeting Ennis a couple times a year was Ennis's way of keeping a distance between them, exerting his dominance over Jack, but Jack went along and allowed Ennis to establish a pattern of dictating the pace of the relationship making it harder for him to accomplish what he wanted. Thus the constant battle for the upper hand. IMO it is a delicate balancing act , as Ennis is easily spooked but Jack had something to work with here. Ennis's undisputed feelings of  deep love for him,  but Jack's approach must be reassuring , gentle ....and  firm.

I love the analogy you make about his vulnerability underneath the hard shell.  And yes, I think Jack understood that he had to go easy on Ennis.  It's not that Ennis was a scared rabbit.  But the slightest thing out provoke him -- sometimes to violence. 

So in some sense, Jack did "dominate" in the sense that he knew exactly how to "control" Ennis -- to get the right responses, to draw him out of his shell.  It is interesting no?  I begin to think that both of them played both roles in different capacilties.  They were well matched.

[manhattangirl]

Aintfoolin,

What you said reminded me of the scene in the beginning of the film, when Ennis warned Jack that the horse he was riding had a low startle point.  Ennis too had a low startle point, and yes Jack should have notice this about Ennis.   I think he tried to approach him gentler SNIT, reassuring Ennis, apologizes at the suddenness of the kiss, to let him know it was alright, and then gentle telling to lie back.  Jack did have these qualities in him.

But Ennis could so quickly bring the curtain down, and Jack again left to wait for the next act.  Ennis had the power of putting himself on hold when it came to loving Jack.  When their week was over Ennis could live for the next 6 months more or less without his lover, Jack didn't have that capacity, he filled his times in other ways, but Jack would send that postcard faithfully to Ennis, and Ennis granted Jack permission to come to him. 

Like the divorce and Ennis lets Jack know this.  Poor Jack, innocent, silly Jack goes to him, but Ennis doesn't want him there.   The girls there for weekend, he could have told Jack "look get a room, and I'll be there Sunday night, Monday morning"  no he just cuts him down.  Telling him more or less I'll let you see me next month, and Jack's with tears in eyes leaves.   

What kind of power do you think this is, what kind of mental and physical dominance Ennis had over Jack.   I'm I wrong in this, I can't help this feeling creeping in me that it was more than fear for Ennis.

Was it dominance? And was Jack the object of it, and was it only Jack?   

It just wasn't only fear as the years went on it was something else that went on between them.  I just can't figure what it is?

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

This is an interesting thread.  I'm kind of in agreement that they both dominated the relationship in different ways.  Perhaps I will elaborate later.

[tpe]

This is an interesting thread.  I'm kind of in agreement that they both dominated the relationship in different ways.  Perhaps I will elaborate later.

CSC, I agree.  Do elaborate on this when you have the time...

[ksxks]

This subject fascinates me, and thanks, manhattangirl, for bringing it up.  And most interesting, what everyone else has also posted.  Just a few thoughts from me, just because I love talking about Ennis and Jack...

This "delicate balancing act," as aintfoolin said, sure is at the heart of what kept these two together during all these years.  I do have sympathy for Ennis, but if I were in Jack's situation, I wouldn't have put up with it.  I say that, but I guess I would have put up with it if I were like Jack, because Jack's love was such that it was worth it for him, and he was a dreamer after all, always believing that one day Ennis would come around.

They were adrift with this relationship, because they had no real models to go by.  They weren't doing the usual thing of the man and woman in those times (which were changing, but not that fast, and not so much in their part of the country) -- where the man would basically run the show, at least on the surface, where it mattered to society (yet women know that they really have the power...and that power is withholding sex – but that's another huge subject). 

So Ennis and Jack had to muddle through, and as it happens, their personalities tended to make one more dominant than the other.  We do see Ennis's dominance – his defining how it was going to be – as mostly based on his fears, but as others have said, it's intrinsic in his personality for it to be this way, whoever he was with.  And then it happens that Jack is willing to go along with it, for his own reasons.

What I just said has to do with their not having a life together, as Jack wanted, and with the terms on which they got together every so often, which were mostly up to Ennis.  But I think on the basis of the time they spent together, it was a more equal partnership.  I like to think that one reason why Ennis loved being with Jack so much was that he could give up the control that held him to tightly wound in the rest of his life, give up the dominance.  Not that he was really aware of being "dominant" – it was just his way.  Though if he had been able to have the sweet life with Jack, he would have realized he didn't have to be that way, that he was free to become a person free from the definitions of his youth.

And what tpe said is interesting, that each thought the other had more control.  It just really is not so clear-cut, and that's what makes us continue to want to try to understand.

And this leads me to why I have special feelings for same-sex relationships, because they do have to make up their own rules, instead of doing the proscribed thing.  (Not that many M/F couples do the proscribed thing so much any more these days.)  The dynamics between Ennis and Jack would be different in our current times, but there still would be some power struggles in some sense, as there always are between people.  But they would feel more free to figure out how to work them out.

I don't know if all this sounds like it has to do with the subject of "dominance," but it does to me.  And I love everyone else's thoughts.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

 I totally agree with this wonerful post! Ennis was a dominant, very masculine man by his very nature. This quality/virtue can be very attractive  even sexy to some but it can turn ugly and dangerous real fast, as Jack himself found out.  Ennis was very stoic in his pesonality. Some things about Ennis for Jack was clearly defined, His shy old fashioned sense of order, His quiet charm, and even his childhood wounds.  His dominance eventually clashed with Jack's hopes for sweet settled life with Ennis. This dominance came in to play in the form of a wall  of fear against this particular  cow and calf operation Jack has  proposed. He appeared controlling and stubborn  and paranoia ruled the day. as the years went on even though his reasons / excuses may have been legit. His " I gotta work Jack" was his offering for not spending more time with Jack , but in the divorce scene I cannot see any redeeming value for his behavior. In this scenario he had options. Sending Jack away like he did and Jack's passive response spoke to Ennis dominance over Jack and the relationship. So this is why I question wether this sweet life could really work in my other thread The Sweet Life?  when all this is factored in. Would Jack still sneaking off to find comfort and understanding with some one else because of Ennis's overwhelming control and dominance over him?    Kathy, Jack should 'nt have to withold sex from Ennis, although this particualr stunt has been known to work very well but that in itself is a deeper form of control. IMHO

[manhattangirl]

If Jack withheld sex from Ennis, Ennis would have just taken him.

Aintfoolin you posed a good question:  Could have Jack survive Ennis's dominance, which could have turned to an unbearable obsession.

We saw signs of this in the final confrontation, I may get a lot of heat for this, but wasn't the "short leash" exactly that,  "you want me, call for me, but what do you give me?"   

Sexually, Ennis's greatest, most satisfying experience was that with Jack.  With Alma, and Cassie it was going through the motions, it didn't stay with him in the way it had when he made love to Jack.  Even after the four years of separation what did Ennis do when Jack again was in arms.  How powerful does this make one feel, it should have made Jack feel the power, but Ennis felt the power, and used it.  Jack had the control but Ennis took it, and used it. 

Jack was complicit in this game, giving in to Ennis in every way to hold on to what he needed and that was Ennis, the only one he loved, and knew loved him.

Ennis unwillingness to change, sexually need, his unrelenting grip on Jack was taking it's toll.  If they did lived "that sweet life"   how long would it take for it to  sour, or do think they could have lived if not a sweet life but a life?

 

[ksxks]

I threw that in about withholding sex just in relation to M/F power dynamics, not anything to do with Ennis and Jack really.

It is indeed a question whether they would have had a sweet life if they had lived together beginning somewhere along the way during the years we saw them.  So much fanfic does try to envision that.  I think they would have made it -- sweet for a while, settled after that.  I would like to think.  I think they had enough together that working out their power dynamics would have kept their relationship interesting, at the least.

kathy

[jackster]

All kinds ‘a great stuff here. Probably been said here already, but IMHO what I see is:

Ennis: Behaviorally dominate, Emotionally weak.
Jack: Emotionally strong, Behaviorally submissive.

Almost a yin-yang pairing of opposing but complementary traits. To me one of the tragedies of the story is that because of the social milieu they were in neither man had the tools to figure out a way to make this work and adequately demonstrate this to the other. I think what makes our hearts break is that now we see It Could Have Worked! but are unable to do anything about it. Just MHO. It would have been a sweet life.

jackster

[manhattangirl]

Of the four scenes in the movie of intimate moments between Ennis and Jack, three are totally Ennis dominance, FNIT, which I guess could be argued as totally Jack, but Ennis sure showed Jack how it was going to be that night.  Another point would be the dozy embrace, Ennis walks up behind Jack, wraps his arms around him, sings to him, gently rocks him to almost twilight sleep, "I gotta go, see you in the morning", Like telling him "be here".  The reunion, and Ennis again takes control, he makes the rules for Jack, and the expectations he should have in going into this "Thing". 

But the only time Ennis honored Jack, as if to say, "please accept me, I want you", was SNIT,  and Jack accepted Ennis, gave him his body, which Ennis lost himself in.  That brief moment of courtship.

Ennis control points was set.   I really do think Ennis felt he owned Jack, mentally, physically, emotionally.  He proved this with his various actions through the years, when he needed Jack, when it was ok for him to come, all he had to was to answer Jack's postcard.   And he did this without a change in his own life, that's control, that's dominance,  and that's power.   

I would concede that this was all in his mind, in reality he really had no control.  But the important thing is that he felt he had control, to prevent what ever bad thing from happening.   Not really understanding what it was actually doing to the both of them.

Please tell me if I'm off base on this.

[jackster]

I really do think Ennis felt he owned Jack, mentally, physically, emotionally. He proved this with his various actions through the years,

No doubt MG, maybe I wouldn't call it "owned" from Ennis's perspective, I think he thought it was part of the deal for him to be in this relationship. I may get a lot of flack for this, but I think Jack liked it. That was part of the complexity of this relationship - and many male-male relationships. I think what you say is true, and yet Jack still says after 20 years "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". Why?

A small point that doesn't come across in the film, at the reunion in the motel it's Jack who tells/begs Ennis to take off an' go "fishin" to which Ennis complies. I guess this can be argued either way (I'm no Psychologist), when someone makes a request and someone acquiesces who's expressing the power here?

[lamusica]

Good question, jackster.  There's always two edges to dominance -- one who wields it and one who acquiesces.  Some days I think Ennis was dominant most of the time; then on other days, I am sure it is Jack who is dominant.   So many things can be seen two or more ways, it is difficult to be too definite.
As far as "ownership" goes -- I don't think Ennis owned Jack ( or vice-versa).  I do think he took Jack for granted -- just expected hiim to be there when arranged.  But "ownershp", to me, implies the right to use and MISUSE the one owned.  It's sort of like the word "slave".  I can't deal with that in any relationship.  Love flies out the window when a relationship slips over the line into ownership, in MHO.
I think both men meant a lot to each other.  Jack owned up to that with his  "I miss you...."line and Ennis never did verbally own up to it.  Two people, two personalities.  When Ennis wrote Jack the final postcard, he was showing his feelings.  He was missing Jack bad and wanted to be sure Jack was still planning on November.  Again, Ennis never says the words, but he walks the walk.

[manhattangirl]

No doubt MG, maybe I wouldn't call it "owned" from Ennis's perspective, I think he thought it was part of the deal for him to be in this relationship. I may get a lot of flack for this, but I think Jack liked it. That was part of the complexity of this relationship - and many male-male relationships. I think what you say is true, and yet Jack still says after 20 years "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". Why?

A small point that doesn't come across in the film, at the reunion in the motel it's Jack who tells/begs Ennis to take off an' go "fishin" to which Ennis complies. I guess this can be argued either way (I'm no Psychologist), when someone makes a request and someone acquiesces who's expressing the power here?

 

Oh yes Ennis concedes on a few times at Jack request, but at cost to him?  not much.   But Jack did a lot of conceding in this relationship, and was hurt in the process.   How much is one's ability to take hurt, and still love the person that hurts them?  Its better than not being with them.  And that is what Jack was guilty of, if anything was take the pain, punishment of Ennis's fears, which Jack was more of victim of than anyone else.  It was still better than not being with him.

But nearly twenty years later, it was all to much for Jack, that's why the final confrontation, I like to think of it as Jack's rebellion.   He couldn't handle it any more, no more pain, no more disappointments, it had to stop, Ennis had to understand this.  Ennis had to release him,  Jack didn't know how "I wish I knew how to quit you". 

My only point is that years of this had have to buildt-up in Jack, Ennis had to  release the grip, set him free.   Call it taking one for granted, slavery, domination whatever,  Jack was straining on something, and Ennis held tightly on to whatever Jack was straining against.

To Rebel  you have perceive some power greater than you is treating you unfairly and keeping you down.  Jack felt Ennis's power was greater than his.  Even though both was complicit in this relationship.     

Does this make sense? 

[welshwitch]

To go off in a slightly different direction, I also think a lot of Ennis's energies went into dominating or controlling "this thing" which he thought had grabbed hold of him and on which there were no reins. Ennis dislikes things he can't control and isn't about to give in to something he feels is stronger than he is.

Jack, on the other hand, just accepts the strength of his feelings and acts on them to the extent that Ennis allows him to. He doesn;t see emotion as a threat or something he needs to control.

[jackster]

Does this make sense? 

Yes it does, but IMHO it's a somewhat grim view of what I see as a fully consensual relationship. I guess victimizing Jack in the relationship seems too easy and ultimately unfair to Ennis. Some people relish boundaries and limitations (and pain) applied to them especially by others who they are attracted to and love. There is an entire subculture in the gay community devoted to this. I think there had to be some of this in Jack and it provided him with satisfaction. Taking hurt and pain is not always considered a bad thing when accepted freely. Otherwise why put up with it for 20 years? They weren't married, they lived far apart, Jack was good looking (at least in the film), outgoing, had some financial flexibility, - get out.

I believe Ennis felt controlled as well by things and people he had no control over, some of it Jack, "It's because of you I'm like this" and some of it beyond Jack (his job, social fears, etc.). In many respects it was much more critical for Ennis to keep the relationship going. His options seem much more limited, but maybe the life of a loner was easier for him to accept than it was for Jack.

We may be saying the same thing here, in different ways. As you say Jack had his foibles too, "Sometimes I miss you so much . . ." and then shortly thereafter "I wish I knew how to quit you" display inner confusion on his part as to what he really wanted. I believe Ennis could have uttered they same words, he did in some respects "I can't stand this anymore Jack". It's the great tragedy, they were both caught in a Force of Nature they couldn't escape.

jackster

[aintfoolin]

At this point we're talking *roles* here. I think Ennis thought of himself as a "man's man" the essence of masculinity while Jack displayed ...I won't say *feminine* traits but a nurturing , passive personality. Not *weak* buy any means but ..  submissive to Ennis bordering on a S/M type role. Now  please don't get me wrong I'm not saying this spilled over exclusively to thrir sex life , but I think Jack to a certain extent liked being * taken care of * by Ennis. A " this is my cowboy, my man *attitude. Appreciated the protective/posessive side to Ennis. This plays into my feeling that  Ennis liked taking care of Jack , a man in his own right, up on Brokeback, liked pleaseing him, This give and take is seen clearly when in the scene where Jack returns from tending the sheep and is bitchin about Aguirre's  working conditions , Ennis is listening,  Offers to switch with him. This again provides him with another opportunity to please Jack and *take care of him*.   this  is the "dominant " yet, condsderate , caring side of Ennis  on display  with Jack's permission. In a way this  is  part of Jack's dominance/power over Ennis .  He  appeals to  and contributes to Ennis 's male need to provide for him. Jack never took advantage of this power, but he definitly had it, My 2 cents.

[jackster]

He  appeals to and contributes to Ennis 's male need to provide for him. Jack never took advantage of this power, but he definitly had it, My 2 cents.

Well said, aintfoolin'. I like your whole post here.

[manhattangirl]

I see your point ainfoolin',  I can't help but think of the scene on the hillside, both look down at the sheep, Ennis standing there with the gun in his hand, Jack strength out, At first it looked  as if  Ennis might shoot Jack, but now I think of it as the role Ennis tried to play all along.  The protector of his beloved. 

I always wondered why that scene alone touch me, I have it as a wallpaper on my computer.  (now you guys really must think I'm weird.). 

But like all protectors, the protection starts to smother the protected.  Jack may have given in to it  beginning, but when it was becoming so oppressive it began to wear at him.   But I'm beginning to understand what kind of toll it was taking on Ennis,  his life was mainly centered around Jack, even when he wasn't with him, and  he given more up and lost more, then I think Jack realized.    The power of love, huh?   

[aintfoolin]

 MG, If your weird, I'm weird too. LOL I had it for my desktop  wallpaper too! The scenery here is exquisite and it spoke to me. But anyway, yes,Ennis felt very protective  but I don't think Jack minded it at all, even later but I do think he minded not having all the other stuff that went along with it such as their own place to protect together. IMO Jack loved any attention Ennis gave him though he he came to loath the half-stepping committment Ennis offered concerning this.
Certainly Ennis gave up alot to be with Jack , but so did Jack. Ennis gave up peices of time , ( never enough)jobs, marriage etc. Jack gave his life. Where was the protection while Jack was being killed? Had Ennis listened to Jack  they'd be  living a sweet life ranched up together.  albeit aware and ever watchful  of the tire irons but not a lonely  regretful exixtence in a trailor. Ennis gained nothing by his insistence on standing it instead of at least trying to fix it. Again, I hate placing blame,  but sometimes Ennis tasks me ... One must start somewhere, take that first step,  make it happen. then allow fate or nature  to take it's course in the direction intended That's life.  Time waits for no one. This makes sense to me .

[welshwitch]

Carpe diem, as the Romans said. Seize the day - that's what Ennis never does - he always has an excuse - getting married, having to work, being there for the girls - until after Jack's death, then he ditched the round-up in favor of Alma Jr's wedding. So he's learnt too late that opportunities don't keep coming, if you don't take them when they appear you may never have another chance.The only person he doesn't protect ( except Alma, and she removes herself) is ironically himself, and of course Jack at that one crucial time.

[ksxks]

These posts are so excellent.  I don't know that I have anything to add, but I find every word fascinating.  I love this trying to figure out exactly what this love between Ennis and Jack was to them.  The more I look at them, the more rich they are, with much to tell us.  I see myself in both of them.

kathy