Topic: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?

[tpe]

This subject fascinates me, and thanks, manhattangirl, for bringing it up.  And most interesting, what everyone else has also posted.  Just a few thoughts from me, just because I love talking about Ennis and Jack...

This "delicate balancing act," as aintfoolin said, sure is at the heart of what kept these two together during all these years.  I do have sympathy for Ennis, but if I were in Jack's situation, I wouldn't have put up with it.  I say that, but I guess I would have put up with it if I were like Jack, because Jack's love was such that it was worth it for him, and he was a dreamer after all, always believing that one day Ennis would come around.

They were adrift with this relationship, because they had no real models to go by.  They weren't doing the usual thing of the man and woman in those times (which were changing, but not that fast, and not so much in their part of the country) -- where the man would basically run the show, at least on the surface, where it mattered to society (yet women know that they really have the power...and that power is withholding sex – but that's another huge subject). 

So Ennis and Jack had to muddle through, and as it happens, their personalities tended to make one more dominant than the other.  We do see Ennis's dominance – his defining how it was going to be – as mostly based on his fears, but as others have said, it's intrinsic in his personality for it to be this way, whoever he was with.  And then it happens that Jack is willing to go along with it, for his own reasons.

What I just said has to do with their not having a life together, as Jack wanted, and with the terms on which they got together every so often, which were mostly up to Ennis.  But I think on the basis of the time they spent together, it was a more equal partnership.  I like to think that one reason why Ennis loved being with Jack so much was that he could give up the control that held him to tightly wound in the rest of his life, give up the dominance.  Not that he was really aware of being "dominant" – it was just his way.  Though if he had been able to have the sweet life with Jack, he would have realized he didn't have to be that way, that he was free to become a person free from the definitions of his youth.

And what tpe said is interesting, that each thought the other had more control.  It just really is not so clear-cut, and that's what makes us continue to want to try to understand.

And this leads me to why I have special feelings for same-sex relationships, because they do have to make up their own rules, instead of doing the proscribed thing.  (Not that many M/F couples do the proscribed thing so much any more these days.)  The dynamics between Ennis and Jack would be different in our current times, but there still would be some power struggles in some sense, as there always are between people.  But they would feel more free to figure out how to work them out.

I don't know if all this sounds like it has to do with the subject of "dominance," but it does to me.  And I love everyone else's thoughts.

kathy

Wonderful post, kathy.  You touch on a lot of subtle things here, not only about Ennis and Jack, but about "unconventional" relationships in general.

Perhaps it was more of a true partnership in most of the time they spent with each other.  It is true that both sought each other because they felt comfortable with each other, and not because they were coerced in any manner physical or psychological.  For all their frustrations with each other, I think everything else melted away whenever they were in each other's company.  Both appreciated that they needed the other to be whole, and it made them acknowledge that there was an intrinsic dependence on the other where happiness was concerned.

[manhattangirl]

Thank you Kathy and tpe:

As always the both of you, and others in this site give your thoughts and feelings so freely and openly, I really beginning to fall in love with all of you. 

Kathy what you offered goes to straight to the question,  I just really was getting the feeling as I watch the movie for the upteenth time,  that Ennis was dominant in the sense of how the relationship was going to be, "we could meet every once in a while",  where it was going to be, "way out in the middle of no where". 

I may get a flak for this,  but Jack had no problems in using sex, and sexually he dominated Ennis, Ennis could not resist Jack, he needed him, wanted him, and gave into him

Jack would never withhold sex from Ennis, but  let it be known  he was not his only lover,  Ennis must have felt this through the years, He knew Jack had lovers, he just didn't want to deal with it, couldn't deal with it.  It came to surface in final confrontation, Ennis wasn't surprise just hurt and angry.

Is it wrong for me to even have the idea that these two men used the only power they had against each other, Ennis's availability, and Jack's body? 

[tpe]

Thank you Kathy and tpe:

As always the both of you, and others in this site give your thoughts and feelings so freely and openly, I really beginning to fall in love with all of you. 

Kathy what you offered goes to straight to the question,  I just really was getting the feeling as I watch the movie for the upteenth time,  that Ennis was dominant in the sense of how the relationship was going to be, "we could meet every once in a while",  where it was going to be, "way out in the middle of no where". 

I may get a flak for this,  but Jack had no problems in using sex, and sexually he dominated Ennis, Ennis could not resist Jack, he needed him, wanted him, and gave into him

Jack would never withhold sex from Ennis, but  let it be known  he was not his only lover,  Ennis must have felt this through the years, He knew Jack had lovers, he just didn't want to deal with it, couldn't deal with it.  It came to surface in final confrontation, Ennis wasn't surprise just hurt and angry.

Is it wrong for me to even have the idea that these two men used the only power they had against each other, Ennis's availability, and Jack's body? 

I had wondered many times how the sexual dynamics played out, in relation to dominance.

I may be in the minority here, but I even think it plausible that Ennis may have taken the passive role in some instances...

Nonetheless, you bring up an interesting point as to whether jack used sex as a means of control.

There are times where I am not so sure about this.  I think the reason is because in the later years, Jack had to find gratification elsewhere because Ennis was playing so hard to get.  THe whole speech begining with "I'm not like you.." in the last scene seems to indicate that Jack felt deprived of the intimacy and sex that he needed and that only Ennis could provide.  It seemed to me that it was a cry from someone who felt helpless in the face of Ennis witholding such gratification, and this explains why Jack took to finding alernatives, imperfect they may be.

But there is also a truth in what you imply.  I think it was Jack who opened Ennis up to his sexual desires, and that Ennis certainly felt that he could not go on without it.

[welshwitch]

To me Ennis has a much lower sex drive than Jack, which means that as he doesn't need Jack physically as much as Jack needs him, he can dominate because he's less needy, though I don't think he'd be able to verbalise that, or even maybe work it out. Jack is much more pragmatic; when he finds he sees Ennsi too infrequently ( and Lureen clearly doesn't figure here) he simply goes elsewhere, for what I assume is physical sex with no emotional dimension. So you might say that Jack is to some extent dominated by his physical needs as Ennis is dominated by his fears.

[manhattangirl]

WW, 

The only thing I may take issue with is that Ennis had a low sex drive.  His sex drive with Jack was a consuming one.   After that first summer with Jack, going back to Alma, experiencing sex with her, his wife, a woman, left him wanting, she wasn't Jack. Cassie wasn't Jack. 

What do you think someone would do to keep what gave him life from getting away from him, to try control that very thing he thinks,  he believes he needs.  Ennis tried to do it with Jack.  His domination over him worked for nearly the twenty years they were together.

Jack tried to slip that leash whenever he could, and did.   

 

[tpe]

To me Ennis has a much lower sex drive than Jack, which means that as he doesn't need Jack physically as much as Jack needs him, he can dominate because he's less needy, though I don't think he'd be able to verbalise that, or even maybe work it out. Jack is much more pragmatic; when he finds he sees Ennsi too infrequently ( and Lureen clearly doesn't figure here) he simply goes elsewhere, for what I assume is physical sex with no emotional dimension. So you might say that Jack is to some extent dominated by his physical needs as Ennis is dominated by his fears.

Id did seem to me that Ennis did have a lower drive, but sort of built up the need inside of him.  The reunion scene seems to show this, no?

[tpe]

WW, 

The only thing I may take issue with is that Ennis had a low sex drive.  His sex drive with Jack was a consuming one.   After that first summer with Jack, going back to Alma, experiencing sex with her, his wife, a woman, left him wanting, she wasn't Jack. Cassie wasn't Jack. 

What do you think someone would do to keep what gave him life from getting away from him, to try control that very thing he thinks,  he believes he needs.  Ennis tried to do it with Jack.  His domination over him worked for nearly the twenty years they were together.

Jack tried to slip that leash whenever he could, and did.   

I think there is a grain of truth in both your points of view.  As I said in the last post, Ennis probably did have a lower drive, but a lot of it got stored inside of him, awaiting an explosive release.  This seems consistent with Ennis being used to deprivation, but he also didn't stint on things like this when he got the chance...

[welshwitch]

Personal knowledge of someone with a high sex drive but able to sublimate  and deny it for long periods of time, then indulge it to the full when the occasion presented itself was what lay behind my comment about Ennis. I think it was just one of those things he felt he had to stand when Jack was absent; on the other hand, Jack never subscribed to that point of view, or at least thought that there was more than one way of fixing it.

[jackster]

Some insight into Ennis’s sexual needs is spelled out in the SS when he tells Jack in the Motel Siesta in 1967 - “I never had no thoughts a doin’ it with another guy, except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin’ about you.”

It seems he had the drive, but also a way of release, one that that may not have been as satisfactory to Jack. And this was when he was married to Alma. Another means by which he utilizes his “if you can’t fix it, you gotta stand it” methodology. Not necessarily less drive but other means of release IMHO.

[welshwitch]

It seems to typify the difference between them that Jack would go looking for other men while Ennis took care of himself.

[manhattangirl]

But it goes to root of this heartbreaking story, these two men veiws of their individual sexuality was at looked differently,  Ennis loved Jack deeply, and wanted him sexually, but this "thing" had to be kept in check. And in turn the relationship between them had to be kept in check.  

Jack was more open with his sexuality, even married to Lureen, he sought out male comfort, which too was a trap he found himself, did it occur to anyone that Jack need for Ennis is to get him out living this way.   I'm sure Jack didn't want to live a life of giving it up across Texas and Mexico.  

And for nearly twenty years, he waited for Ennis, to take him out this life.   Ennis dominance, fear, denial kept him from even understanding what Jack was going through.   IMO

[tpe]

It seemed to me that Ennis found some release with Alma while they were yet married.  It was probably not satisfactory, but Ennis used it as a "tide-over" the way Jack sought sexual release elsewhere.  I am not sure if this is totally accurate..

So, although Ennis seemed to have dominated the sexual issue by having a greater threshold or greater self control, we should perhaps note that even he needed some release.  He was perhaps not as stoic as he would want other people to believe.  And his real need for Jack (at least sexually) should not be obscured by his finding surrogates, but in the form of relations with women.  After all, his attachments to women appeared to be more sexual than emotional.

[welshwitch]

Or dictated by his need to behave conventionally and to keep Alma in ignorance of his relationship with Jack.

[manhattangirl]

It seemed to me that Ennis found some release with Alma while they were yet married.  It was probably not satisfactory, but Ennis used it as a "tide-over" the way Jack sought sexual release elsewhere.  I am not sure if this is totally accurate..

So, although Ennis seemed to have dominated the sexual issue by having a greater threshold or greater self control, we should perhaps note that even he needed some release.  He was perhaps not as stoic as he would want other people to believe.  And his real need for Jack (at least sexually) should not be obscured by his finding surrogates, but in the form of relations with women.  After all, his attachments to women appeared to be more sexual than emotional.

 

You are so right tpe,

This was how his mind work.   Ennis's need for release were with women, but remember how he reacted to Jack's need for release with men.  Jack couldn't cross that line.  That was definitely asking for trouble. 

Ennis knew how Jack was, Jack wouldn't go to a woman, no way,  and this was identifying him more closer to Jack, than he wanted to be.   And what Jack gave him sexually was almost too much for him take, he love it, he craved Jack, sex  between them was passionite and lasting,  but he had to control it.  And control Jack, if that was even possible, by keeping the one person he wanted most in the world at a very short distance.   







 

[aintfoolin]

Yeah but women were allowed. Tpe is right. As long as there is no emotional ties to equal their  own it was "understood" that women were not a threat. There was Lureen, Alma, Cassie and possibly LaShawn ( though I doubt this one personally) Jack and Ennis did not loathe the company of women. Other men? ...now it's a different story. Other men are more dominant and possessive  in this case and in this  context,over   someone they want, particularly a love interest. Ennis himself can become frighteny possessive when it comes to Jack, so yes he was very jealous when he found out Jack had been cheating.  Another man would be more in the realm of this private world, therefore risking expsoure in the 60's in rural WY. Jack and Ennis both got whatever they needed  to as you  stated " tied them over" until they 'd meet again.MO

[manhattangirl]

What I'm only trying to say that there seem like an unspoken rule, (in Ennis mind) women are allowed just like you and tpe said,  Jack married  true, but he his release was not Lureen in the long run, but other men, hence his trips to Mexico.  I really think Jack was Randall 's lover moment Randall opened that door.   LaShawn, no way in heck I wouldn't even buy into that one.

After saying all that,  Ennis somewhere in the back of his mind, knew if Jack was to put the "blocks" on someone it wouldn't be a women.  And Jack knew if ever told Ennis the truth about what he did when he wasn't with him, that would set Ennis off,  hence, the "boys like you" remark.  Jack straight up lied about seeing LaShawn to Ennis, if he told him about Randall Ennis would go ballistic.   

Now you tell me what kind of control is that?  Jack lied,the question is did he lie for Ennis's sake or to keep Ennis from killing him?     

[aintfoolin]

Later on Jack did go  exclusively with men and yes Ennis would have kicked out of the harness if he found out about the other men.  Namely Randall. This  is why Jack lied about Randall in my opinion.  Jack knew what the consecquences would be if he told the truth. Ennis depended on Jack for alot of important aspects in his life, sex among them,  Jack was besides being his lover, his best and seemingly only freind. Ennis was dominant and clear on what his  expectations of Jack were.  He appeared controlling at times, in Jack's face talkin about killing him if he found out about anybody else, pulling the reins tighter on Jack.  Jealousy was  rearing it's ugly head, but Randall was a reality in Jack's life and Jack was'nt gonna be a fool and blurt anything out about at that time. Had Randall tucked away for  future reference . He was already well into making  private decisions on his own behind Ennis's back.  In this way he maintained some power and control over his own life.

[jackster]

Later on Jack did go exclusively with men and yes Ennis would have kicked out of the harness if he found out about the other men. Namely Randall. Randall (was) tucked away for future reference .

Hadn't this deceit pattern been somewhat established almost from the begining - mixing the SS and film a bit, but the lines "You do it with other guys, Jack?" "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." I've always felt this implied he was seeing other men, if only for one night stands. This and the rodeo clown bar scene from the movie make me think this was just part of Jack's lifestyle. What was Jack's fear here during the '67 reunion? I don't think it was violence, I think it was fear of losing Ennis, and some embarrassment on Jack's part - he didn't want this to look like Ennis was just another guy he sacked up with? So the little lie he started with kinda grew because this is what Ennis was lead to expect, after 15 years to let the cat out of the bag and say "Oh yeah Ennis, I been makin' it with other guys all these years". No doubt there would be some fear of the reaction at this point for two reasons - the unfaithfulness aspect and the deceit aspect.

I think you're right that Ennis didn't regard Jack's female relationships (or Ennis' for that matter) to be in the same league as the male relationships and therefore not competitive.

[welshwitch]

It seems to me that sex between the two of them belonged in some way to the world they shared up on the mountain and was a one-shot thing to Ennis, though not to Jack. While they were apart, convention demanded that they appear outwardly normal, hence the wives, and that's why they weren't considered by either to be a threat. Ennis never saw Lureen, so she remained a distant figure and one to whom Jack's attitude was pretty cynical. Jack met Alma once, briefly; presumably he concluded that she was no threat to him. Cassie he knew nothing about until Ennis mentioned her, rather casually, towards the end. And until Ennis's divorce, a long way into their relationship, each knew that the other was prepared to betray his wife for him.

Jack evidently realises that given his fears Ennis would not become involved with another man - he's too frightened of giving himself away. In the ss he admits, in the motel scene, how he coped with his desire for Jack when Jack isn't there. Jack, on the other hand, wants more than just - er - jacking off (sorry!), but I don't know whether that would ever occurred to Ennis if Jack hadn't talked about Mexico and started off a train of associations.

And because Ennis is more in control of his desires than Jack, he is able to dominate him.

[manhattangirl]

Great posts guys:

I have one question:

Wasn't it Ennis who brought up the WHY, Jack went to Mexico, Jack only brought up Mexico as a place where they could go one day.  Ennis alway,  I believed knew why Jack went there, without Jack letting anything out of the bag.  That's why the "boy like you " remark,  Ennis figured it out long before Jack said anything.  No deceit,  just no admissions. 

Ennis had no misconceptions about his lover, that Jack was like him,  he wasn't.  Jack was someone Ennis was really in fear of,  so the control.  Unlike anyone else in his life, Jack was the person that wasn't going get away, no matter what.  Ennis was possessive of Jack, and obsessive with fears of losing him and of discovery.  Jack wasn't playing by the rules, which made that short leash tighter.

But as long as Jack kept going back to Ennis, Ennis wasn't going give an inch, and he knew Jack would be back.  Ennis rein in Jack as much as he could, and Jack let him.   

 

[aintfoolin]

I think Ennis had strong suspicions, but it did'nt exactly hit him until Jack, frustrated at Ennis's change of plans just sort of blurted out about being someplace warm, "we otta go to Mexico" I think a light came on in Ennis's head * he's been there* and simply put 2+2 together thus questioning Jack if his suspicions were right and also knowing what they have down there for boys like him. I feel Ennis just thought he had Jack figured  out as his and only his alone but Jack had secrets he was'nt about to reveal. Not with Ennis still steaming from the Mexican hustler admission. Jack's decision  not to reveal anymore daliances made good sense after seeing Ennis's reaction to Mexico. Why would he risk the wrath of Ennis even more? %(Jack was exposed to more of society than Ennis therefore making his chances of meeting someone  else more likely. Temptation was more available to him. I think Jack let Ennis beleive whatever he chose to beleive after a certain point in the affair, but behind the scenes he found what he needed to get through the times of seperations' vulnerabilties.To Jack, "standing it" came to involve infidelities. It was his way of rationalizing his needs  after this cycle of  rejection + waiting for Ennis to commit to him I suppose. He was'nt going without, so technically he did'nt verbally lie about "the rest" that Ennis did'nt know, but simply said *I'm gonna get mine* and remain silent about it. What Ennis don't know, won't hurt him perhaps?

[manhattangirl]

But wouldn't leave Jack in a vulnerable position with Ennis, now Ennis has the idea Jack would go else where, he was now non exclusive, would Ennis's instinct from then on would clamp down harder on Jack?   

[welshwitch]

If you're right, aintfoolin', and I think you are, then that may also explain the enigma of his (non-) reaction to Randall's proposition. Maybe Mexico was far enough to be out of sight, so to speak, and the encounters there were anonymous and, if he went more than once, which presumably he did, with different men. No way Ennis was going to find out about them.

But Randall was a different thing. Involvement with him would be hard to conceal, might lead to local scandal, even his leaving Lureen. Ennis might not get to hear about that either, but if Jack were to become seriously involved with Randall, in the end that would surely make him break with Ennis? So maybe in that shot where he looks so blank, he's just been struck by the implications and likely repercussions of accepting the "fishing" suggestion.

[aintfoolin]

Your right WW. They were both taking a huge risk meeting in this small town and actually living so close in proximity. But Ennis is a good 14 hour drive away. If there was a town scandal, it is unlikely to reach Ennis although Newsome's farm equipment was dealing in big business  so taking the two big ranching states like Texas and Wyoming into consideration , word of mouth gossip  (truck-drivers,  travleling salesmen ,etc may be likely to reach Riverton .. But , I mean Randall lived in the neighborhood for goodness sake. Lureen and LaShawn were more likely to have stronger suspicions about all of this.   

Thank you WW for clarifying the distinction . Jack could have  had endless affairs in Mexico  or elsewhere if he chose. His silence to spare Ennis.  He was just smart enough not to get with someone ( other than Randall) who would cause trouble later or wanted ties.  and Ennis would be  still traveling the coffee pot tryin to find the handle. Without a clue, unless he happens to drop in one day, out of the blue  in Chidress and happen to catch Jack.  The likelyhood of that happening is almost nil. He simply trusted Jack to be there for the arranged meetings. What went on in between?  Randall., maybe others.. It's just speculation but who knows but Jack himself. He was riding "more than bulls" with someone.  Not rolling his own. And it was'nt with Ennis.


 

[jackster]

Your right WW. They were both taking a huge risk meeting in this small town and actually living so close in proximity. . . . . What went on in between?  Randall, maybe others . .  It's just speculation but who knows but Jack himself. He was riding "more than bulls" with someone.  Not rolling his own. And it wasn't with Ennis.

Kinda OT, but the way you've outlined it here Aintfoolin' is more the way I've envisaged the "Randall" thing all along. I can't see Randall as the "other" local Ennis, I've seen him as the film portrayal of one of many encounters both local and distant. Just part of Jack's lifestyle choice of ridin' more than bulls. Having grown up in a small town myself, it's doesn't seem that just foolin' around with one guy (Randall) would necessarily get you killed (not that it wouldn't), but what seems much more likely is that Jack got a local "reputation" because he was messin' around with more than one guy. This seems much more likely to be seen as a threat and engender hatred and hostility in the community, enough to get a small lynch mob goin'. All this could be going on without Ennis ever learning of it. JMHO.

[tpe]

Wonderful exchanges over the weekend.  Thanks friends!

It seems to me that the question about relationships with women as opposed to relationships with men figures in an important way when we discuss the issue of dominance. 

Although Ennis never insisted that Jack disavow the latter entirely, I think it was clear (especially during the last meeting), that Ennis would not stand by idly if Jack did this too openly. 

It certainly looked like Ennis assumed that he was faithful to Jack so long as he refrained from having relationships with another man, and he expected Jack to do the same.  In a way, this was a unilateral expectation, but I suspect that both of them understood the unwritten rule that Ennis seemed to have followed and insisted upon. 

The fight over this issue in the last meeting can therefore be interpretated as a form of power play, no?  Ennis wanted to make clear to Jack that he expected -- if not insisted -- that Jack remain faithful, in accordance with this unwritten rule.  But it was also clear that Ennis was aware of Jack's toying with other men.  And Jack certainly had not qualms doing this, because in his mind, it was Ennis who withheld himself.

For Jack, so long as Ennis did not agree to share a life with him, then he would be able to do as he please and Ennis should not insist too strongly on faithfulness.

Hence, toying with other men perhaps became a tool for Jack to "get back" at Ennis's refusal to consider a sweet life.  Ennis, perhaps knowing this, refrained to confront Jack openly about this, because he knew that it was a kind of reproach.

All this came to a head in the last meeting -- and I think that at the point, both knew exactly where the other one stood and was not willing to back down.

[welshwitch]

I think you're right, tpe - in fact that last scene between them is a sort of Mexican stand-off. Ennis knows Jack is made miserable by his refusal to meet more often, and also by th e way she's prevented their even trying to set up together somewhere; equally Jack knows that Ennis hates the idea of him with another man - and since he's kept quiet about Mexico and never mentions Randall presumably he realises what the effect of either would be on Ennis. So each has a weapon - "You're the one who stopped us sharing a life together, not me."/"You're the one who was unfaithful, not me."

So what could they do? Suppose Jack said, "If I had you I wouldn't need anyone else. I'd give up Mexico in a heartbeat if we were together," and Ennis said, " Once the girls are off my hands, there'd be nothing stopping me from doing as you want. I can't be happy without you."

[jackster]

I think that at this point, both knew exactly where the other one stood and was not willing to back down.

Exactly tpe. This is the way I've understood the words:

" . . . for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

There wasn't anything in this exchange that they didn't know about each other already, they'd known each other 20 years. The only thing new here IMO was the fact that Ennis FINALLY admits he can't stand this any longer. However, what he plans on doin' about it is still unclear (i.e unresolved).

[manhattangirl]

Exactly guys, IMO:  Ennis created the rules to ride it out for as long as they could stand it,  Jack made no rules, but felt if this how Ennis wanted so be it.   But it got too much for Jack, he had to push.  At this point it wasn't Ennis decision , the ball was in Jack's court now, the shift in power changed.

[tpe]

So what could they do? Suppose Jack said, "If I had you I wouldn't need anyone else. I'd give up Mexico in a heartbeat if we were together," and Ennis said, " Once the girls are off my hands, there'd be nothing stopping me from doing as you want. I can't be happy without you."

Interesting "what-if", WW.

I am biased, perhaps.  But I would believe Jack, but I would not believe Ennis.

For me, it is clearer that Jack would drop everything to be with Ennis -- money, family, and (I think) all other emotional or physical attachments.

With Ennis, I can't help but feel that he brings up one excuse after another.  I am not saying that his excuses were not valid.  They were.  But I can't help feel that he was hiding behind the validity of these excuses and he was not upfront on the real thing that kept him from taking the leap: his own fears.