Topic: The Sweet Life?

[manhattangirl]

I believe Alma, Jr. knew,  Her mother probably told her the whole ugly sordid story, unless she herself grew to understand her ex-husband.   Alma, Jr. was old enough to be told, how she was told doesn't matter, and what she was told didn't matter, a child's  love for a parent is unconditional.   she loved her father,  "May he's not the marrying kind"  is probably the only truthful line in the whole story.

After saying all of this, I too believe they could a have lived and worked together.  It's unconventional and beautiful at the same time, what makes up a family.   

[aintfoolin]

She had to hear Jack's name referred to as the fishing buddy all her young lfe. As young children Jack was there in the picture and all through the picture. ( the divorce scene). As young blossoming young ladies, and teenaged girls they had to remember this  gorgeous guy who beamed that charming smile at them through Ennis's truck window.  That would make an impression on them They'd remember that!!.  He was still the fishing buddy many years later when she is older young lady dealing with Cassie . Knew her dad was'nt "the marrying kind" unless he could have married Jack and been left alone in peace. She had to figure her dad out.  I think Jack would have been easy for her to talk to . To voice her suspicions about her dad to. I felt she was worried about her father and seemed very protective of him wanting to move in and see to him. These trips were not a bunch of guys gettin together to share a fishing cabin for a weekend, this was her father .. and Jack , just Jack, for years .I think she got it. She would fit into their lives as a symbol of acceptance/affirmation for them both.

Jackster, the You Bet ranch??  :8LOL   I luv it. Would their cupboards contain their fav food , BEANS? :c)please don't get me started.

[welshwitch]

Yes, of course it must have been evident to both girls that Ennis had few friends, so Jack, even if only seen briefly and then mentioned, if he was, by their mother or even step-father, must have appeared important in their father's life. I can just see this ranch coming together - if Kurt's a roughneck, he'll be strong and physically fit, no threat to Ennis as Randall with his college education would have been.

[jackster]

Would their cupboards contain their fav food , BEANS? :c)please don't get me started.

Oh, why not . . . .
Some frozen Elk steaks in the freezer just to break the monotony, a coupla' mounted trout on the wall along with Jack's rodeo belt buckles. Maybe a mounted sheeps' head in the livin' room (this is Wyoming after all), on second thought they might have to put the sheep in the bedroom, a mounted sheeps head would raise A LOT of questions in Wyoming. Maybe an Elk or coyote for the living room.

Tough question - Where are the shirts?

[aintfoolin]

I suppose Jack would keep a coupla cans of beans on the shelf for Ennis  since he seemed to enjoy them so much, but Jack would have to improve on his can opening skills a little  ( assuming he's ...ahem....cooking. though or they're gonna need alot of kitchen wipes! The elk head in the the livingroom  sounds right , it's so them, but they must have a special place for their keepsakes though. Ennis will probably lock the harmonica away some where and tell Jack it finally broke into.   Jack's rodeo buckles  of course must be displayed so there has to be a den. Maybe a small office on the lower floor so that family and freinds (hopefully) will be able to see them. Wow ! I just realized that Jack  has alot of *stuff* to display! He must have kept these things. Postcards and such, and of course he'd have alot more clothing than Ennis.

 Ah, the shirts. These are not just any shirts. First of all, they are never to be washed or manipulated in any way. They will continue to hang , not folded and put away. Where they will hang?...Well that is a tough question  I don't think they'd want them displayed out in the open or would they? Something with so much sacred history must have it's own special space. I'm thinkin, I'm thinkin... Hmm?

[jackster]

Tough question - Where are the shirts?

Another tough question, this maybe should be it's own thread:

If Jack had lived and they had been able to come together in The Sweet Life,

How would Jack tell Ennis about the shirts?

What would he say?
What would be his explanation?

Any ideas?

[lamusica]

For some reason, I don't think Jack would have shown them to Ennis -- at least not at that time.  I think he would have found a place to hide them, but would have kept them safe and visited them when he had the need to do so.  Maybe years down the road, if Ennis ever opened up and admitted to Jack how he felt about him, Jack may have shared the shirts, knkowing then that Ennis would prize them, also.

[manhattangirl]

For some reason, I don't think Jack would have shown them to Ennis -- at least not at that time.  I think he would have found a place to hide them, but would have kept them safe and visited them when he had the need to do so.  Maybe years down the road, if Ennis ever opened up and admitted to Jack how he felt about him, Jack may have shared the shirts, knkowing then that Ennis would prize them, also.

I agree.   Maybe later he would have shown him the shirst, but not now, no need to,  Ennis was there.

[tpe]

Another tough question, this maybe should be it's own thread:

If Jack had lived and they had been able to come together in The Sweet Life,

How would Jack tell Ennis about the shirts?

What would he say?
What would be his explanation?

Any ideas?

I suspect he still would have kept them secret, or have not tried to tell Ennis. 

But if Ennis discovered them by accident, I don't think it would have been problematic.  It would have probably increased his love for Jack.

I would even think that Ennis would not tell Jack that he discovered the shirts.  IT would become an open secret.

[welshwitch]

After all these heads on walls and displays of assorted memorabilia, I begin to think that the sweet life would need to involve a decorator, and possibly a de-clutterer. Couldn't they be a bit more minimalist?

Oh, and if Jack's cooking, would it be quiche?

[lamusica]

LOL

[tpe]

After all these heads on walls and displays of assorted memorabilia, I begin to think that the sweet life would need to involve a decorator, and possibly a de-clutterer. Couldn't they be a bit more minimalist?

Oh, and if Jack's cooking, would it be quiche?

In the sweet life, I see Ennis cooking and Jack helping out with the can opener.

Kidding aside, I think the shirts marks a milestone in their relationship.  That was why Jack kept it.  He would not have disposed of it, even if he had gotten the life he had wanted.  And Ennis discovering them after Jack's death is made ever more poigniant, because it probably signified the "sweet life" of togetherness till death.

 

[lamusica]

... and after.

[tpe]

... and after.

It was a promise. 

[welshwitch]

I sometimes wonder if the reason Ennis resisted the idea of the sweet life was also because in a way it meant taking an irrevocable step, cutting all his ties and committing entirely to another person. I can see Jack doing that without a second thought, but not Ennis. I thionk there's a sense in which though he wasn't happy he could cope better on his own.

[lamusica]

I think when he got married, Ennis thought he would be having the sweet life with Alma.  It wasn't until later when reality entered and he realized life was hard and wasn't going to get any easier, and Jack returned, that he realized he wasn't leading the sweet life after all.  Perhaps, as he tells Alma when she asks why he doesn't remarry, "Once bitten....".  He may have just figured... Well, things didn't work out too swift with Alma, why should I expect them to work out any better with Jack?  His marriage with Alma may have been an added element that kept him saying "NO" to Jack as more years went by ( and NO to Cassie).

[jackster]

I think when he got married, Ennis thought he would be having the sweet life with Alma.  It wasn't until later when reality entered . . . .

Yes, lamusica, indeed I think he thought Alma would "cure" him of Jack. But as he told Jack in the motel in '67, by the next summer ('64 I guess) he realized Alma wasn't Jack, the "backdoor" sex nothwithstanding. I'd guess that his comment to Alma a few years later "I'll be happy to leave you alone" meant he didn't really enjoy it much with Alma and looked forward to "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings" with Jack. IMO he didn't like hetero sex, and couldn't bring himself to continue the charade with Cassie, he didn't want to hurt her. At the same time he liked sex with Jack, but couldn't bring himself to consent to a male relationship even though he didn't want to hurt Jack either (but of course did, just like Cassie). My reading is that he didn't actully make the connection of the two different (failed) relationships, but it is an interesting point that is worth consideration.

[aintfoolin]

I agree. We can equate Ennis's treatment of Jack with his treatment of Cassie. He could'nt *carry through* on the expectations of either. In a way they were led to beleive one thing , then as time goes by Ennis withdraws from the relationship. He was dealing with two head strong idividuals who happened to approach him.  Jack at least waited until he knew Ennis felt the same for him, showing patience. Cassie , I beleive was looking for a husband imo.  Thought she'd found her cowboy with Ennis.  She was very forceful in her approach from the start.  Too late. Jack was way ahead of her in the game for Ennis's heart anyway. This  is why he dropped her like he did . Jack already owned Ennis's heart, He was there even before Alma. Yeah he tried to banish those feelings for Jack (cure) but only being with Jack was the remedy. Held captivated totally by one Jack. Ennis is a *loner* in love.
 Obviously Ennis enjoyed sex with Jack  over Alma. I think he had a bond with Jack that superceded these women, Alma and Cassie.  He preferred sex with him  another man. I must add that  it was'nt just the sex though that Ennis found attractive about Jack. Aside from being gorgeous, Jack liked masculine  guys, imo and was masculine  himself. . I think Ennis had the perfect combination in Jack . He was down to earth , easygoing to the point of being kinda goofy & funny,  masculine in every way,and  could charm the most introverted person to the surface. Above all he was a friend. I don't think Ennis  had this with Alma...or Cassie . Perhaps  Ennis just wants to be left alone to love Jack ... it's when he's truly happy.

[tpe]

A wonderful exchange here... I love particularly the suggestion that Ennis mistook his marriage with Alma for the sweet life.  I would assume Jack's marriage to Lureen was also an attempt made along similar lines.

I guess both of them really had the desire to find and live such a life, and it is interesting to note that their initial idea of it predicated that they be integrated with society at large.  This is of course the missing ingredient, if Ennis and Jack were to try to live a life together -- they could never really live openly and be a part of the larger community, or so they thought.

This is even more interesting when we note that Ennis never really seemed to relish contact with the larger community anyway.  Jack seemed to have been more adept at it, joining his wife in various community social events, it would seem.  One would think that Jack would have the greater problem, but this was not the case.

The social dimension together with or as opposed to the "sweet life": I think this should be investigated more.  How important was the social dimension for both of them?  Was it really that important to them?  The solution of Forster at the end of "Maurice" was to disappear into the woods and live the sweet life.  Is this rather naive?  Have they ever considered it?

[welshwitch]

Jack copes with the social scene more easily than Ennis because he's more of an actor. Ennis can't dissimulate to save his life. Jack remains married to Lureen at least partly because he plays the part - of husband, family man, salesman. Ennis finds it difficult and in the end impossible with Alma just as he later does with Cassie.

I have a niggling feeling that attractive as it might seem to them to go off into the wilderness ( American mythology there) or light out for the territories in Twain's phrase, the great expanses that seem to offer freedom are no longer the expansive frontier of the past - by the late 70s or early 80s it would be hard to find  real isolation. And even if they did, Ennis might handle it, but I can't help wondering if Jack, with his restless nature, might eventually tire of isolation.

[lamusica]

Although Jack often goes out among the people, jh never seems happy.  In every scene where he is with Lureen, we get a peek at his very solemn, sad face.  I'm not sure Jack is any more social than Ennis, but as you say, WW, he is a much better dissembler.  He can convince others he is one of the boys -- happy with his life, son, life.

[welshwitch]

I have a feeling too that Jack is one of those people who's often able to live in the moment - eg when he's with Bobby and letting him drive the tractor ( or whatever it is) he looks totally absorbed in that and quite happy. Or maybe the easiest way to deal with the lack of Ennis is to get on with time-passing activities until he can get away again.

[aintfoolin]

So it begs the question. Which is worse for Jack ? Being isolated from society with Ennis? or isolated from Ennis to interact with society. IMO Jack's personality says he needs people around. He's always had people around him . His parents, rodeoing and approaching people in bars  as opposed to waiting to be approached,( except with Lureen)  as well as being an excellent salesman in business deals speaks to this He's more a *peopleperson*  imo.  Ennis is just the opposite desiring to live one step above a hermit, restrained and bashful. Did'nt give two sh-ts if he ever had to deal with social gatherings ever.  Yes, it came easy indeed for Jack to play the part with Lureen and her social obligations but was he truly happy doing it?  Don't think so. On the other hand living out in the middle of nowhere can be stifling for him also.  Did'nt need a ton of freinds, but 3 or 4 could'nt hurt. I think he just wanted to be with Ennis ,shack or mansion, as long as Ennis was there. he'd already lived in both so  , Jack was happy  whenever and whereever  he and Ennis were together, so I tend to lean toward the latter, living a quiet, private life with Ennis. To live with Ennis?  if this is what it took, so be it . He would've sacrificed anything to live a sweet life with him.  I mean the man had the money, a decent job, a son and wife. What more could he ask for? You guessed it, Ennis. The life he wanted in reality.  Jack was willing  to give it all up to be with Ennis. This is true love if it ever existed.

[tpe]

Although Jack often goes out among the people, jh never seems happy.  In every scene where he is with Lureen, we get a peek at his very solemn, sad face.  I'm not sure Jack is any more social than Ennis, but as you say, WW, he is a much better dissembler.  He can convince others he is one of the boys -- happy with his life, son, life.

I agree with both of you.  I think I had also just said this in another one of my posts for today.  Jack is indeed a great dissembler.  In many ways, it helped him cope with Ennis and the life he led under the shadow of his wife and her family.


How could he have done this after all those years of frustration and heartache?  I suspect it was the dream of the sweet life that kept him going.  Without it, perhaps there would have been no point at dissembling.

[Forever]

I had wondered if up on Brokeback in 63, Jack already had a vision of a shared life together. 

I think that it porbably was not yet well formed in him. 

At that point in time, I think both of them resigned themselves to this being a one-shot thing, as Ennis already had othwer plans.  It seemed to me that only after 4 years of separation that Jack realized that he wanted a life with Ennis, and by that time, things had gone too far in the other direction, as far as Alma and Lureen are concerned...

The realization of the sweet life came for Jack earlier imo, the next summer, because he did return to Aguirre the next summer. But Ennis didn't show up. Maybe Jack thought at that point that Ennis didn't love him, and he move to Texas. What Jack didn't know was the child trauma of Ennis, what he didn't know is that he was deeply loved by Ennis, and this is the tragedy of BBM. If Jack had known that, he would have contact Ennis earlier.

[tpe]

The realization of the sweet life came for Jack earlier imo, the next summer, because he did return to Aguirre the next summer. But Ennis didn't show up. Maybe Jack thought at that point that Ennis didn't love him, and he move to Texas. What Jack didn't know was the child trauma of Ennis, what he didn't know is that he was deeply loved by Ennis, and this is the tragedy of BBM. If Jack had known that, he would have contact Ennis earlier.

For me, this is plausible.  But I agree totally that the vision of Sweet Life came much earlier for Jack than for Ennis.  I doubt that Ennis had such a vision before the reunion 4 years after they parted.  He probably would never have dreamed it a possibility, the way Jack did.

[FlwrChild]

Very good points. One wonders when Ennis tells Jack during that four year reunion (in the short story)  about the stomach cramps he'd had at the end of their summer on Brokeback and says:

"Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights." just what he thought they could have done if he'd chosen differently. Because by the time of the reunion, he has a wife and two kids which is presumably why he says "Too late then by a long, long while." But had he not let Jack out of his sights, what then? Ennis shows all through the story that he doesn't believe two men can live together. But in that one moment, there's almost a sense that somewhere deep inside he had enough hope, enough strength of affection and attachment, to imagine that there might have been something for them if they'd taken the chance.

Of course, it's possible that it's one of those things that is easy to say in hindsight but he never would have been able to carry through if the chance arose. Still, it makes me wonder...





As to Jack being social and needing other people, I'm not so sure. He was certainly capable of being social but I think a lot of that was an effort to find something/someone to hold onto or belong to or to do what he had to do to fit in and make his way in the world. I tend to think that he might have been just as happy as Ennis to be out in the middle of nowhere on their own for the most part. Though I agree that a few friends would be necessary. I think even Ennis would need to interact with someone else, just because that much isolation wouldn't be good for anyone. Sigh, I would love to have been their friend if they were my neighbors...

[Forever]

Very good points. One wonders when Ennis tells Jack during that four year reunion (in the short story)  about the stomach cramps he'd had at the end of their summer on Brokeback and says:

"Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights." just what he thought they could have done if he'd chosen differently. Because by the time of the reunion, he has a wife and two kids which is presumably why he says "Too late then by a long, long while." But had he not let Jack out of his sights, what then? Ennis shows all through the story that he doesn't believe two men can live together. But in that one moment, there's almost a sense that somewhere deep inside he had enough hope, enough strength of affection and attachment, to imagine that there might have been something for them if they'd taken the chance.

Of course, it's possible that it's one of those things that is easy to say in hindsight but he never would have been able to carry through if the chance arose. Still, it makes me wonder...





As to Jack being social and needing other people, I'm not so sure. He was certainly capable of being social but I think a lot of that was an effort to find something/someone to hold onto or belong to or to do what he had to do to fit in and make his way in the world. I tend to think that he might have been just as happy as Ennis to be out in the middle of nowhere on their own for the most part. Though I agree that a few friends would be necessary. I think even Ennis would need to interact with someone else, just because that much isolation wouldn't be good for anyone. Sigh, I would love to have been their friend if they were my neighbors...

I disagree 100% when you said that Jack was happy with the few meetings annually in the middle of nowhere. For 20 years he tried to convince Ennis to share a full life together, rightly because he was a very social person! The last confrontation with Ennis was all about this: He was just fed up of this unsatisfactory situation. Jack was the social and the modern one, was he really a dreamer? I'm not sure, after all Earl and Rich shared a life together, even though Rich end up tragically, they did have a full life together, they were pioneers because they were fearless, they didn't care to be the joke of the town. Jack, because he loved Ennis so much understood this fear and sacrifice his wish for a sweet life.   

[FlwrChild]

I'm sorry, Forever, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that Jack was happy "getting together every once in a while out in the middle of nowhere." Certainly not. As you said, that was his biggest frustration in life - that Ennis couldn't bring himself to take the same chance as Earl and Rich and make that "Sweet life" a reality.

What I meant was that I think Jack could have been happy with the very sweet life he proposed to Ennis - a little cow and calf operation, something like that. That he didn't need to be in a metropolitan area or surrounded by a lot of other people to be happy. I think that he had it in him to be social but I believe, based on what we saw of him in the movie, that he didn't have a big need to be. I think a quiet life with Ennis would have suited him just fine. And of course as I said, I think even Ennis would have needed a few friends and neighbors. We all do. Even the people who are introverts by nature. Everyone wants to feel like he/she belongs somewhere. And no one wants to be completely isolated. Had Ennis taken a chance and agreed to try for that life with Jack, I think they both could have been content with the kind of life that a profession like that would have dictated.

Sorry for the confusion!

[Forever]

I'm sorry, Forever, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that Jack was happy "getting together every once in a while out in the middle of nowhere." Certainly not. As you said, that was his biggest frustration in life - that Ennis couldn't bring himself to take the same chance as Earl and Rich and make that "Sweet life" a reality.

What I meant was that I think Jack could have been happy with the very sweet life he proposed to Ennis - a little cow and calf operation, something like that. That he didn't need to be in a metropolitan area or surrounded by a lot of other people to be happy. I think that he had it in him to be social but I believe, based on what we saw of him in the movie, that he didn't have a big need to be. I think a quiet life with Ennis would have suited him just fine. And of course as I said, I think even Ennis would have needed a few friends and neighbors. We all do. Even the people who are introverts by nature. Everyone wants to feel like he/she belongs somewhere. And no one wants to be completely isolated. Had Ennis taken a chance and agreed to try for that life with Jack, I think they both could have been content with the kind of life that a profession like that would have dictated.

Sorry for the confusion!

Sorry for the confusion too FlowerChild, now I get it! I didn't read all the post before so I missed the context a little bit! I'm sure if Jack would have succeed to have the sweet life with Ennis, he would have been so happy that I'm sure he would have preferred to be 100% with his love, even if it means stay at home, rather than socialize with the community! For Jack, Ennis was the only 'thing' he needed, wanted