Topic: What did Ennis think he was doing?

[aintfoolin]

There has been much speculation about wether Ennis was gay or straight. In FNIT he was reluctant. fought Jack off  even...at first. What changed his mind? Jack 's excellent seduction or  something deeper? Was he angry at Jack? I have to admit I was shocked to see this , but I've wondered what drove Ennis to give in ?  Some say he was drunk but he seemes sober enough to me and able to perform ,I'm confused. Jack was'nt taking no for an answer, but Ennis did'nt have to  do it ,but I'm awful glad he did. Let's explore.  Any takers?

[jackster]

Good question aintfoolin'. My analysis of this goes back to the SS which describes it thus:

Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect c*ck.

Which I interpret to mean he didn’t want to “play” to put it politely, when Jack took his hand. Instead he took charge and “put it” to Jack. This was the only way he could accept this engagement at this point. Upon reflection the next day up on the mountain I believe he came to a better understanding of himself, of Jack, and his relationship with Jack. Hence the very critical and pivotal scene outside the tent SNIT when he decides to reverse the roles. Ennis now seeks out Jack and succumbs to the passion he feels not just the lust. Just MHO, but I feel this is where has a realization that this is what he wants. Later, at the end of summer after they part and he gets physically sick from the separation he realizes this (Jack) is what he needs.

jackster

[tpe]

Good question aintfoolin'. My analysis of this goes back to the SS which describes it thus:

Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect c*ck.

Which I interpret to mean he didn’t want to “play” to put it politely, when Jack took his hand. Instead he took charge and “put it” to Jack. This was the only way he could accept this engagement at this point. Upon reflection the next day up on the mountain I believe he came to a better understanding of himself, of Jack, and his relationship with Jack. Hence the very critical and pivotal scene outside the tent SNIT when he decides to reverse the roles. Ennis now seeks out Jack and succumbs to the passion he feels not just the lust. Just MHO, but I feel this is where has a realization that this is what he wants. Later, at the end of summer after they part and he gets physically sick from the separation he realizes this (Jack) is what he needs.

jackster

Excellent post, jackster.

[jackster]

What changed his mind? Jack 's excellent seduction or something deeper?

aintfoolin'

I’ve come to see Ennis as being a much more interesting character in this entire regard. Maybe because it portrays a process that many homosexual men go through in deciding (and accepting) who they are. In the Cassie Cartwright thread I posed the question about Ennis’s earlier comment on the coyote’s “Balls as big as apples” and then later doing his private chores (aka bathing) right there in full view of Jack preparing supper. This always struck me as strange, I don’t hunt but I know a lot of hunters, I’ve NEVER heard the size of an animal referred to by the size of its testicles (except in science books). Where the heck did that come from? Farmboy talk, well maybe. Both these events seem to me a not so subtle (maybe subconscious) effort by Ennis to bring sex, sexuality and specifically male sexuality into their daily lives. Almost goading Jack on, like “here it is buddy, want some a’ this?”. And then to top it off with that “you may be a sinner, but I ain’t had the opportunity” – come on Ennis, who do you think your foolin’ here? (other than himself). No wonder Jack cracked a big smile when he said this
To me after this entire prelude, “the move” FNIT by Jack comes as little surprise, just MHO.

[masetane]

Hmmm interesting. I see it as just a farm boy comment.  Maybe stating how big the animal was.  I dunno. I do know tons of guys that have no issue disrobing in front of others.  so that didn't even get me to second think anything either. I was wondering why they put that scene in the movie b.c it showed Jack not even looking or seeming to notice. Whereas when i read the short story, the fact that he noticed "no drawers" made me think he took a sneak peek???

[aintfoolin]

Jackster, you are absolutly right! Ennis did go thru a process of sexual enlightenment. The steps are clearly defined from that moment in front of Aguirre's trailor, where in my opinion he was attracted to Jack from the start.  I agree he maybe did all this sub-consiously But by FNIT I beleive he was very aware of this "thing" as he puts it. Just did'nt know how to put thought into action. Thanks to Jack he was shown how he could express his feelings. There was indeed a method to this madness inside him , these confusing conflicts about his sexuality were finally givin a face in my opinion.
As for "balls as big as apples" I've never heard this term used either, perhaps he was teasing Jack about the cyote still being up there after Jack futile attempts  to kill it.( dumbass missin).
 Masetane, I think that scene was put there to show Jack's desires for Ennis was growing stronger by the hour. And yes I think he did "sneak a peek" . Can't blame him, I would have too.

[masetane]

LOL - did he sneak a peek? I'll have to go back and look. I thought for sure he didn't!!   

[tpe]

Hmmm interesting. I see it as just a farm boy comment.  Maybe stating how big the animal was.  I dunno. I do know tons of guys that have no issue disrobing in front of others.  so that didn't even get me to second think anything either. I was wondering why they put that scene in the movie b.c it showed Jack not even looking or seeming to notice. Whereas when i read the short story, the fact that he noticed "no drawers" made me think he took a sneak peek???

Actually, I think Jack was actually looking in that scene in the movie, albeit surreptitiously.  You can sense it in the tightening of his jaw, and the swallowing motion in his thoat.  Rightfully, many critics have lauded Jake's acting in this scene, because it manages to express so much desire with the most subtle of facial actions.

[jackster]

Actually, I think Jack was actually looking in that scene in the movie, albeit surreptitiously.

You bet! We all know how peripheral vision works, and I think there’s no question Jack could see him without necessarily “peeking”. And more importantly to me, Ennis KNEW Jack could see him. This is my point about all the little behavioral items that Ennis keeps throwing Jack’s way. If Ennis was at all concerned about Jack gettin’ the wrong impression it would have been easy enough to just go around the side of the tent. And in fact, with the whole of the great outdoors to choose from, he specifically decides to plant himself right there while Jack’s occupied there fixing supper. Not right in front of Jack which woulda’ been blatant, but just far enough to the side to still be visible. Cunning.

None of these little things amount to much, but added together to me it’s a subtle pattern. It’s called it gaydar today, but I think Jack had it in ’63 and understood what was going on, even if Ennis didn’t! IMHO.

jackster

[tpe]

You bet! We all know how peripheral vision works, and I think there’s no question Jack could see him without necessarily “peeking”. And more importantly to me, Ennis KNEW Jack could see him. This is my point about all the little behavioral items that Ennis keeps throwing Jack’s way. If Ennis was at all concerned about Jack gettin’ the wrong impression it would have been easy enough to just go around the side of the tent. And in fact, with the whole of the great outdoors to choose from, he specifically decides to plant himself right there while Jack’s occupied there fixing supper. Not right in front of Jack which woulda’ been blatant, but just far enough to the side to still be visible. Cunning.

None of these little things amount to much, but added together to me it’s a subtle pattern. It’s called it gaydar today, but I think Jack had it in ’63 and understood what was going on, even if Ennis didn’t! IMHO.

jackster

If it wasn't gaydar, it must be a working prototype! 

Yes, it's the little things taken together that make this movie such a fine work of Art....

[welshwitch]

It's also the fact that the details ARE subtle - so many things these days are so overdone and hit you over the head in order to demonstrate something.

[aintfoolin]

Certainly true. Both their appoaches were subtle. The movie showed them going about their daily chores on Brokback with a subtle dance beginning for them both. Ennis expressing his feelings toward Jack through several actions,( bathing nearby, shooting an elk etc.) all to please Jack. Jack on the other hand provided friendship,comedy, and a souding board for Ennis. I feel these little nuances contributed to the deep love that settled in their hearts seemingly on a sub-concious level at first. But by SNIT, the reality of all this became clear to both Jack and Ennis. I'd love to know Ennis's thoughts as he sat on that log, contemplating joining Jack in the tent. It may be just Ennis's way, but when he entered that tent the way he did, my heart melted for him. Hat in hand , and down on one knee gave me the feeling that he came to honor Jack for opening the door to this majic he felt and wanted to show appreciation ( through a shy tentaveness) to Jack that he was right all along. It was SO romantic and acted so excellently by Heath Ledger. As far as I'm concerned this will go down as my fav love scene in a movie...ever.

[jackster]

As far as I'm concerned this will go down as my fav love scene in a movie...ever.

You Bet!! Until the day I die.

jackster

[aintfoolin]

 Jackster, If it's possible to give high-fives over the internet, Here's one for you !!!

[manhattangirl]

Ok guys call me slow on the up-take.  If Ennis was throwing out these signals to Jack, then it was natural for Jack to take that bold step FNIT, and then there Ennis submission to him on SNIT which was like a consummating of their relationship.  Why the shut down in Ennis at the end of the summer?   

What did Ennis think he was doing?  It was like he was playing peek a boo with Jack and with himself and  his own sexuality.   Am I wrong?

(Aintfoolin I agree with you about Heath Ledger, it takes considerable acting talent, to portray such a character as Ennis Del Mar, and not be all over the screen, it was controlled, precise, beautiful and painful to watch)

[welshwitch]

The mopuntain was a place out of place and time - when they came down, at least for Enn is it was a return to reality and responsibility. In the real world he had to marry, work, conform and there was no place for Jack in his world.

[jackster]

Why the shut down in Ennis at the end of the summer?   
It was like he was playing peek a boo with Jack and with himself and his own sexuality. Am I wrong?

MG: There's a bunch a threads on this topic that make very interesting reading. My take is this, it was 1963 rural WY remember, Ennis (or Jack for that matter) didn't have a lot roles models that showed them how this could work. They were clueless, plus Ennis had all that baggage about Earl n' Rich that we learn about later, and plans with Alma. It was like a fantasy camp up on the mountain and they didn't know how to integrate that reality with the real world. Jack wanted to try but Ennis was stuck and it takes two. So your right, it was kinda' a peek into another world that neither of 'em knew anything about, or in the case of Ennis anything GOOD about. Just MHO.

[manhattangirl]

Thank You, Thank you Jackster,

My next question did Ennis think that what he felt for Jack, his need for him was good or bad?  This question IMO has to be at root of Ennis, what do you guys think?   

What was his basic belief of what he had with Jack,  was his reluctance based on fear, or the age old question of right or wrong?   

[aintfoolin]

It is a sad story MG . But  I feel that there was a period of time  on Brokeback when Ennis was in "discovery mode" for a while . this was all new to him up there.. Even though he had these inner conflics, there  were moments where he acknowledged that there were feelings there . Maybe not verbally but through certain actions . This was his way of telling Jack that he had a  special awareness of him. It started with a comfortable easy  friendship, something Ennis had never had. as a kid,  So to see him  go through this period of discovery and have the whole SNIT unfold ....well it's a very different Ennis than we saw in front of Aguirre's trailor that day. I'm fascinated by it and this whole character. A new chapter in his life had opened. It was all about Jack.

 I can see where you say he played Peek a Boo with Jack's emotions later on and appeared to act selfish at times  When he came back down from the mountains , back into the real world, I suppose he tried to play Jack as just some guy  that he spent a great summer with, but he soon realized that there was this thing about Jack Twist that he could not deny.  Something deep. He was in love. Yes he explored the *other* side of life  , marryin Alma when he knows damn well that he had unresolved issues with Jack. ...And with himself.  He was just to scared of it and had no idea how to understand  how the relationship could be made safetly and freely permanent.  My 2 cents.                              
,  

[tpe]

It's also the fact that the details ARE subtle - so many things these days are so overdone and hit you over the head in order to demonstrate something.

Subtle enough that we remain fascinated by the characters and their motives.  In the case of Ennis's it mirrors real life, in my estimation.  Very rarely does a person exhibit one specific motive behind his actions.  It is often a mixture.  With Ennis, the actions were probably not completely understood on surface level.

 

[tpe]

Ok guys call me slow on the up-take.  If Ennis was throwing out these signals to Jack, then it was natural for Jack to take that bold step FNIT, and then there Ennis submission to him on SNIT which was like a consummating of their relationship.  Why the shut down in Ennis at the end of the summer?   

What did Ennis think he was doing?  It was like he was playing peek a boo with Jack and with himself and  his own sexuality.   Am I wrong?

Because a part of Ennis resisted his own deep-seated desires.  It is common for people to send seemingly contradictory signals.  People in love often do this, no?

[aintfoolin]

I feel it's both as Ennis's  fear is tied in to his senses of right or wrong. It is his sense of right and wrong that drives his fears. He went to great lengths to show them both which is everything he did which involved his denial, and refusal to set up the life with Jack on a permanent basis.His experiences abot Earl and Ray+ his upbringing demanded it. One part of him tells him it's wrong, and feels guilty for loving Jack and also feels undeserving of it but the other part thinks it's oh so good and right. Thus the tug of war on his emotions ...and his soul. My opinion.

[tpe]

I feel it's both as Ennis's  fear is tied in to his senses of right or wrong. It is his sense of right and wrong that drives his fears. He went to great lengths to show them both which is everything he did which involved his denial, and refusal to set up the life with Jack on a permanent basis.His experiences abot Earl and Ray+ his upbringing demanded it. One part of him tells him it's wrong, and feels guilty for loving Jack and also feels undeserving of it but the other part thinks it's oh so good and right. Thus the tug of war on his emotions ...and his soul. My opinion.

If he was loved more openly in childhood, would you think he himself would have loved more openly?

Yes, his fears and hesitations reflect his troubled and lonely upbringing.  They worked below the surface.  Hence, even in love, he felt that he was not free to express himself.  Part of himself sought to suppress his desires.  Again, this suppression is very common with people brought up to deny or negate certain feelings, or to think that some desires are inherently sinful.

[manhattangirl]

Because a part of Ennis resisted his own deep-seated desires.  It is common for people to send seemingly contradictory signals.  People in love often do this, no?

This was the "Summer of Jack" ,  Jack showed Ennis who he was, Ennis emerged with Jack guidance,  but Jack lost control, and never regain it.  At the end of that summer,  if Jack would have let Ennis know he was with him from then on,  no questions ask, would Ennis like SNIT would given in to him, and got in to that truck? 

I love this tread. 

[tpe]

This was the "Summer of Jack" ,  Jack showed Ennis who he was, Ennis emerged with Jack guidance,  but Jack lost control, and never regain it.  At the end of that summer,  if Jack would have let Ennis know he was with him from then on,  no questions ask, would Ennis like SNIT would given in to him, and got in to that truck? 

I love this tread. 

It is hard to say.  Something tells me that even if Jack had tried a bit harder, Ennis was simply not yet ready that time.  I think it was the subsequent 4-yeasr separation that made Ennis realize how much he loved Jack.  That was why the reunion was so intense.

[aintfoolin]

I think Ennis suffered through this marriage, J ust went through the motions as expected. The one sense of redemption he had was his children. They provided Ennis a purpose in life as well as learning to love someone deeper than he loved himself I think he felt this kind of protective love towards Jack too, catergorizing him on the same level as one of his  his *lil darlins .* In the SS this is only held  in reserve by Ennis for  only those he cherished. Jack was high on that list along with his horses and daughters. Those for which  he would put his own well-being second for. I don't recall him including Alma in this group or referring to her in this way. Some may say he used her for *cover* but I think he loved her on some level but for Jack, it  was on a much higher level. The endearment itself speaks to a protective/possessive feeling he had  for him.This is  best evidenced in the reunion scenes whewe he is sitting in the window in anticipation of Jack arrival. Jack kept himm waiting all day,and he got to the "if he shows" point. After much anxiety, numerous beers , and countless cigarettes his nervous tension is finally rewared with Jack F-ckin Twist's  appearence.  After this he was determined to never let him go again. It's too bad he could'nt sustain the intensive * balls to the wall* (literally) , guard down, out of control ,feeling he felt that day...Had he did Jack would 've had his sweet life ,no doubt about it in my mind. My thoughts.

[manhattangirl]

You're right again,  aintfoolin, (I love that balls to the wall),  each of them at different points was at the brink, when their need and love for each other was so evident, and they pulled back.   Ennis fears, and Jack fear of losing Ennis, they didn't need society to destroy them, they were doing a good darn job on their own. 

[jackster]

At the end of that summer, if Jack would have let Ennis know he was with him from then on, no questions ask, would Ennis like SNIT would given in to him, and got in to that truck? 

MG: Good question. I've wondered this a lot too. But when I go back to the breaking up camp scene, and Jack's unfortunate clumsy response to Ennis's "He's cheatin' us out of a whole months pay" when he really meant "a whole months sex and love". Jack didn't get it, and didn't show much pain at having to split up. I think this triggered in Ennis the whole abandonment thing again from his childhood and was one of the emotions that lead to his punching Jack. I don't think Ennis had recovered by the time they were back in Signal, he was still feeling emotional pain, inner confusion, and abandonment. By the time Jack picks up on this there isn't enough time to heal the wounds even though he tries (oh man, Jakes eyes here who could resist that?). If Jack had been more experienced in this maybe he coulda' come up with a quick plan to keep from splitting up at this point, but I don't think he had the skills yet. He's only 19 and I'm not sure either of 'em understood how do deal with a male-male relationship in Wyomin' at that point. Just MHO.

tpe's right. In the coming months (and years) Ennis realizes what this all meant but as he says in the SS "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while." To me this one of the saddest revelations in the story, he KNEW it, but by then couldn't do nuthin' about. Same things happens 16 years later in Jack's closet . . . . .
 :\'(
jackster

[manhattangirl]

No, Jackster, I totally agree.  They were so young, and inexperienced at love.   If Jack was older, more experienced he probably would have a greater influence on Ennis.  He might have been able to teach Ennis about life, being a man, and love.  Jack grew into a man of great sensitivity, and he knew Ennis better than anyone else.  Even Ennis's violent streak didn't scare him off like it did other's in his life. 

They grew together,  even when they matured into men, they still couldn't deal with their relationship, so much was lost.

Does this make sense?

[jackster]

He might have been able to teach Ennis about life, being a man, and love.

Yeah, woulda' been nice huh? And Ennis could teach Jack how to shoot, ride, and use a can opener!
 

jackster