Topic: Lightning Flat

[welshwitch]

Well, Ennis was an hour's drive from the high school, which I assume was in the nearest town, so wher he lived was remote, and eidently whaer Jack was brought up was too. He had already spent one summer on the mountain before he met Ennis, which makes i sound as if there were no jobs near his home - presumably the population was sparse and scattered - and so he's forced back on working for Aguirre.

[jackster]

He had already spent one summer on the mountain before he met Ennis, which makes it sound as if there were no jobs near his home - presumably the population was sparse and scattered - and so he's forced back working for Aguirre.

Yeah, Jack wanted O-U-T, per SS:

"his boots were worn to the quick, holed beyond repair, and he was crazy to be somewhere, anywhere else than Lightning Flat."

[tpe]

Having grown up in LF, Jack must have also had a lonely childhood.  But he seemed to have reacted differently, compared to Ennis.  And he certainly did not shy away from visiting LF, even when he had moved far away.  Wanting to go back and live there speaks volumes in regard to his desire for a sweet life.  Perhaps the isolation of LF made this the perfect place to settle with Ennis, in Jack's mind...

[welshwitch]

Yes, but "going to see my parents in Lightning Flat" was also the acceptable reason for leaving Childress - I wonder if he'd have been so keen to go home if seeing Ennis hadn't been a possibility?

[tpe]

Yes, but "going to see my parents in Lightning Flat" was also the acceptable reason for leaving Childress - I wonder if he'd have been so keen to go home if seeing Ennis hadn't been a possibility?

Somehow, I feel that he didn't mind being back.  He didn't have to stop by LF after the last meeting.  There was really nothing to push him to go.  And the thought of settling there for a sweet life...  Why not anywhere else?  Strangely, he probably did not hate it so...

[masetane]

Plus I think he was just a very sweet person and visiting his parents and helping them out was the "right thing to do".  YOu know?

[welshwitch]

Maybe. I suppose he wants to see his mother - can't see any reason for his wanting to see his father again, except maybe in an effort to impress him or make him accept him. Perhaps that's what lies behind the idea of bringing Ennis or Randall back to LF to work on the ranch - does he expect his father to be grateful?

[edgar]

If Jack had created a life in Childress (or anywhere else) that he really loved and was proud of, he might not have gone back to LF so much.

I actually grew up in rural poverty--not in WY, but really not so different from the world of Jack or Ennis. The economy was farm and labor based; many jobs paid less than minimum wage, but no one said anything. We thought we were lucky to have work at all.

People who get out often don't go back. Some not at all; others only for holidays etc. Living as far away as Texas would have been an acceptable reason for Jack not to get back, or not more than once a year or so. I think his frequent trips back indicate that he is still trying to build the "right" life for himself; he's trying to start over from childhood, since he doesn't like his job or his marriage--certainly not his inlaws--and, sadly, he's not even crazy about his child, though he takes care of him.

Every time he goes to LF and leaves, it's like a new chance to start over. Remember, when he's in LF is when he builds the fantasies that "Ennis will come up here and we'll whip it into shape" or "Randall and I will come up here."

[jackster]

Every time he goes to LF and leaves, it's like a new chance to start over. Remember, when he's in LF is when he builds the fantasies that "Ennis will come up here and we'll whip it into shape" or "Randall and I will come up here."

Yup, this is where he kept the shirts.  :\'(

[tpe]

Plus I think he was just a very sweet person and visiting his parents and helping them out was the "right thing to do".  YOu know?

Yes, any dissatisfaction with his folks was probably outweighed by his sense of duty.  And perhaps he did have strong affection for them  -- well, at least for his mother.

[tpe]

Maybe. I suppose he wants to see his mother - can't see any reason for his wanting to see his father again, except maybe in an effort to impress him or make him accept him. Perhaps that's what lies behind the idea of bringing Ennis or Randall back to LF to work on the ranch - does he expect his father to be grateful?

I agree WW.  If not for affection, then perhaps he wanted his father to accept him more.  Given the words of John Twist to Ennis, I suspect that it really didn't do that much.  But who knows? Perhaps John Twist had come to see his son as a dreamer -- most of all because he wanted to come back.

[tpe]

If Jack had created a life in Childress (or anywhere else) that he really loved and was proud of, he might not have gone back to LF so much.

I actually grew up in rural poverty--not in WY, but really not so different from the world of Jack or Ennis. The economy was farm and labor based; many jobs paid less than minimum wage, but no one said anything. We thought we were lucky to have work at all.

People who get out often don't go back. Some not at all; others only for holidays etc. Living as far away as Texas would have been an acceptable reason for Jack not to get back, or not more than once a year or so. I think his frequent trips back indicate that he is still trying to build the "right" life for himself; he's trying to start over from childhood, since he doesn't like his job or his marriage--certainly not his inlaws--and, sadly, he's not even crazy about his child, though he takes care of him.

Every time he goes to LF and leaves, it's like a new chance to start over. Remember, when he's in LF is when he builds the fantasies that "Ennis will come up here and we'll whip it into shape" or "Randall and I will come up here."

Very insightful, edgar.  I do think that LF was somehow built into the fabric of his dreams.

[welshwitch]

The obvious victory over his father would have ben to turn up there with money ( from LD?) and someone prepared to work with him, to turn it into what it ought to have been, and to prove to his father that he (Jack) wasn't the impractical dreamer and failur his father thought him.

But I also think he may have kept coming back hoping for his father's approval, first to show off his rodeo wins, then to talk about his wealthy wife, his job in a successful business and his son. It does seem odd that he has evidently done nothing to make the hosue at LF more comfortable, at least for his mother, but perhaps his father was ill-inclined to take anything from him.

[tpe]

The obvious victory over his father would have ben to turn up there with money ( from LD?) and someone prepared to work with him, to turn it into what it ought to have been, and to prove to his father that he (Jack) wasn't the impractical dreamer and failur his father thought him.

But I also think he may have kept coming back hoping for his father's approval, first to show off his rodeo wins, then to talk about his wealthy wife, his job in a successful business and his son. It does seem odd that he has evidently done nothing to make the hosue at LF more comfortable, at least for his mother, but perhaps his father was ill-inclined to take anything from him.

I would say that that was indeed a large part of it -- to win his father's approval.  I would also like to think that he loved seeing his mother.  Between the two of them, he probably had enough reasons to go back to LF.  With Ennis there, it would have been heaven for Jack.

[welshwitch]

I also wonder why John Twist hated his son, or at least despised him, and according to the ss had done so since he was very young. He doesn't appear to think much of his wife either - it's odd that he fathered such an emotionally-open son. Must have been Mrs T's influence.

LF seems to me such a cold and cheerless place that maybe it should have been lightning-flattened.

[tpe]

I also wonder why John Twist hated his son, or at least despised him, and according to the ss had done so since he was very young. He doesn't appear to think much of his wife either - it's odd that he fathered such an emotionally-open son. Must have been Mrs T's influence.

LF seems to me such a cold and cheerless place that maybe it should have been lightning-flattened.

Sometimes, I feel that John Twist must have loved his son in his own twisted way.  Perhaps Jack's sensitivity, gentleness, and susceptibility to dreams made John Twist wary if his son.  Sometimes, I think that John Twist and Ennis might have liked each other -- both were probably strong silent types with great reserves of stoicism.  But John Twist certainly had a mean streak.  Ennis ahd a lot of anger within, but I don't think there was any meanness deep inside of him...

[lamusica]

I don't think John Twist loved his son, nor hated him.  I don't really think he thought about anyone but himself.  He certainly gave no thoughts to Jack's last wishes about where to be enterred.  He only wanted him in the family plot because John saw him as belonging there.  The story in the SS that tells about John pissing all over the four-year old Jack tells us he didn't care, didn't understand, didn't give any thought to how to treat a child.  Had he loved Jack, he could not have demeaned him as he did.  I see nothing is the SS or movie that leads me to believe he loved Jack.  He never taught him anything about bull-riding, never went to see him ride.  Never, obviously complimented him, praised him, did anything but feed, clothe and house him.  John is one man who needed a strong woman who would have taught him how to be a real man -- a loving, encouraging father.  (I'm not bad-mouthing Mom Twist here, but her personality obviously wasn't strong enough to influence her husband in any important way.  I always tend to blame mothers who allow others to abuse their children.  Just my hang-up, I guess.)

[tpe]

I don't think John Twist loved his son, nor hated him.  I don't really think he thought about anyone but himself.  He certainly gave no thoughts to Jack's last wishes about where to be enterred.  He only wanted him in the family plot because John saw him as belonging there.  The story in the SS that tells about John pissing all over the four-year old Jack tells us he didn't care, didn't understand, didn't give any thought to how to treat a child.  Had he loved Jack, he could not have demeaned him as he did.  I see nothing is the SS or movie that leads me to believe he loved Jack.  He never taught him anything about bull-riding, never went to see him ride.  Never, obviously complimented him, praised him, did anything but feed, clothe and house him.  John is one man who needed a strong woman who would have taught him how to be a real man -- a loving, encouraging father.  (I'm not bad-mouthing Mom Twist here, but her personality obviously wasn't strong enough to influence her husband in any important way.  I always tend to blame mothers who allow others to abuse their children.  Just my hang-up, I guess.)

This is certainly a different look at it: that John Twist didn't care or understand his son.  THis is certainly not a case of simple indifference, no?  Are you suggesting that he was too caught up in himself?  It is plausible.  I recall Patriot1's opinion that John Twist during Ennis's visit was just disappointed that nobody was helping him out on the ranch.  Your point of view certainly does not contradict this, and may explain a number of things that we have assumed to be indications of hate: such as the urination scene -- the father wanting to teach the child a lesson without considering whether this would scar the child emotionally, for instance.

[welshwitch]

Well, I certainly don't think John Twist had much sensitivity or any sense of a child's vulnerability - maybe as Jack grew up he was just baffled by having produced a son so unlike himself and angry without being able to understand why or do anything other than actions which simply drove Jack further away.

[jackster]

In the SS we are given a bit more peek into the young Jack, one line in particular describing the room Ennis sees:

"An ancient magazine photograph of some dark haired movie star was taped to the wall beside the bed, the skin tone gone magenta."

This male pin-up along with the description of him being a "dreamer" makes me wonder if Jack's old man didn't think his son wasn't "man enough" and early on recognized some traits that he wasn't happy about. Jack's later talk about bringing Ennis up there and building a cabin probably just made the pieces fall into place for the old man.

OT - I've always envisaged this photo to be Mongomery Clift, I guess today it could be Jake Gyllenhaal! Dream on!

[lamusica]

This is certainly a different look at it: that John Twist didn't care or understand his son.  THis is certainly not a case of simple indifference, no?  Are you suggesting that he was too caught up in himself?  It is plausible.  I recall Patriot1's opinion that John Twist during Ennis's visit was just disappointed that nobody was helping him out on the ranch.  Your point of view certainly does not contradict this, and may explain a number of things that we have assumed to be indications of hate: such as the urination scene -- the father wanting to teach the child a lesson without considering whether this would scar the child emotionally, for instance.

Basically, tpe, I don't mean to imply that I blame John Twist's attitude 100% on him.  We have no idea how HE was brought up, or what influences in his life made him turn out like he did.  Perhaps he came from a non-loving, or even abusive, childhood, so his indifference towards Jack was a learned behavior.  I don't know the cause of his actions, but, from what Annie tells us alone, I draw the above conclusions.  I don't think everybody just automatically understands or loves children.  That's a learned behavior, according to the psychologists I have studied.  Perhaps John had no one to teach him how to father a child. Of course, this is all conjecture, but isn't that all we ever have?

[masetane]

Hmm this is interesting.

I grew up with a difficult father but I always went back to visit. For me, it was just simply the right thing to do.  However much we didn't agree, he was my father.  Clear as mud???  LOL

[tpe]

In the SS we are given a bit more peek into the young Jack, one line in particular describing the room Ennis sees:

"An ancient magazine photograph of some dark haired movie star was taped to the wall beside the bed, the skin tone gone magenta."

This male pin-up along with the description of him being a "dreamer" makes me wonder if Jack's old man didn't think his son wasn't "man enough" and early on recognized some traits that he wasn't happy about. Jack's later talk about bringing Ennis up there and building a cabin probably just made the pieces fall into place for the old man.

OT - I've always envisaged this photo to be Mongomery Clift, I guess today it could Jake Gyllenhaal! Dream on!

jackster, I must say that I love the way you draw your interpretations from the details in the ss.  I love especdially this one.  Thank you.

[tpe]

Basically, tpe, I don't mean to imply that I blame John Twist's attitude 100% on him.  We have no idea how HE was brought up, or what influences in his life made him turn out like he did.  Perhaps he came from a non-loving, or even abusive, childhood, so his indifference towards Jack was a learned behavior.  I don't know the cause of his actions, but, from what Annie tells us alone, I draw the above conclusions.  I don't think everybody just automatically understands or loves children.  That's a learned behavior, according to the psychologists I have studied.  Perhaps John had no one to teach him how to father a child. Of course, this is all conjecture, but isn't that all we ever have?

Perhaps he was indeed conditioned in this regard.  After all, neo-Confucian thought also conditioned the Chinese for humdreds of years that to discipline their children harshly would be better than letting them off easy.  Perhaps a similar thing existed in the life and world of John Twist.  Certainly, LF was a harsh, unforgiving place, and perhaps John Twist and the people there were shaped by these very characteristics out of sheer necessity.

[welshwitch]

Landscape creates character? It's been said, particularly about people who live in harsh landscapes where getting a living is difficult. I'd assumed, however, and for no good reason, that either John Twist of his parents had come from somewhere else ahd started up in LF because land was cheap and available. I supoose he or they could have grown up somewhere else altogether, but Jack lived there till he was something like eighteen, so it must have had a formative influence on him.

Did the mountain then condition J and E and their relationship?

[jackster]

Landscape creates character? It's been said, particularly about people who live in hardsh landscapes where getting a living is difficult.

If you get the chance to read any of AP's other works, e.g. Bad Dirt, etc., they are peppered with characters just like old John Twist, westerners and "tough old birds". One of the reasons she likes Wyomin' I'd guess.

[lamusica]

Right, jackster.  When I read her stories, it just puts me in that place.  I can see those characters and hear them speak their dialect, walk their walk, etc.  I've read them all severall times and find more and more in them each reading -- more to think about and wonder about.  Welshwitch presents an interesting idea that perhaps BBM shaped Ennis and Jack's relationship.   Barren in essence, but powerful and uncontrollable at the same time, no?

[tpe]

Did the mountain then condition J and E and their relationship?

It perhaps would not have been possible without it. 

[tpe]

Right, jackster.  When I read her stories, it just puts me in that place.  I can see those characters and hear them speak their dialect, walk their walk, etc.  I've read them all severall times and find more and more in them each reading -- more to think about and wonder about.  Welshwitch presents an interesting idea that perhaps BBM shaped Ennis and Jack's relationship.   Barren in essence, but powerful and uncontrollable at the same time, no?

Somehwere in "Close Range", or in one of her articles about it, Proulx harks back to the unities in her characters and their settings.  Even in the apparently supernatural or macabre ones, you get this feeling that the characters could live and breathe nowhere else.  In the Horrific "55 Miles to the Gas Pump", an explicit connection is made with the character and the remote setting.

BBM is no different.  The Mountain is the third character in this story.  It defines Ennis and Jack as a pair.

[lamusica]

Is there anyone besides me who finds mountains overwhelming?  Visiting Colorado, I felt hemmed in by the mountains, stifled, weighed down.  I have heard of others who feel the same way, but don't know how prevalent this feeling is.  I love the look of the mountains, and love the idea of the isolation and the pristine nature they represent, but know I could never live in them.  As we seem to be saying, the mountains defined, in part, the relationship between Ennis and Jack.  The mountains' immovability and immutability seem to be echoed in Jack and Ennis's  relationship.  They are alone together in an unchanging, static situation.  Nothing really changes in 20 years and it doesn't seem as if anything ever will change.  No one else knows about their relationship, as far as the two men know.  (Of course, WE know Alma knows!) The mountains have enclosed them in more ways than one.