Author Topic: Sobering Moments  (Read 74534 times)

Offline aintfoolin

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Sobering Moments
« on: Jun 06, 2007, 06:03 AM »
All the characters in the movie had moments where they had a *sobering up *an awakening to a fact or event that made them wake up and smell the coffee about something.
 A wake up call so to speak. What are the characters most serious and solemn /profound moments?
 

  My most profound moment in the movie for me is SNIT. It took alot for Ennis to walk into the tent. Many things had to take place in Ennis's mind before this could occur. First he had to admit  to himself that what had happened in FNIT is something he liked. Then he had to go through the back and forth about wether he was " queer" Then how to look Jack in the eye and figure some way to explain to himself and Jack that he wanted more. Well Ennis being Ennis, after analyzing and what iffing to death finally comes to a decision to leave the log and go in Jack's direction. I think this is the moment when he truly fell in love with Jack and knew it. Could've ran away..but he did'nt cuz he could'nt.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

manhattangirl

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #1 on: Jun 06, 2007, 06:29 AM »
Great subject:

I think Jack's sobering moment, was when Ennis drove off, after the final confrontation, the look on Jack's face told us he wasn't nineteen any more, but a man, he saw his lover in pain, and had to make a decision.   He was letting Ennis go.

When Ennis waited for something from Jack concerning November, and took the unusual step to write him, you knew that Jack wasn't coming back, they had to move on separately,  but instead the postcard came back with deceased stamp on it, problem over.

Offline jackster

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #2 on: Jun 06, 2007, 07:09 AM »
Ditto - great subject aintfoolin'

Lureen:
To me her "moment" came on the phone, when Ennis told her about herding sheep up on Brokeback back in '63, and her eyes teared up. To me it's like "Oh, my God. THAT's why it was his favorite place! And THIS is the guy!" She had a lot of pieces to put together and to comprehend in those few moments. She did pretty well (bravo Ms Hathaway) with great composure and was still able to tell Ennis he should go up and see Jack's folks in Lighting Flat.
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline tpe

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #3 on: Jun 06, 2007, 12:26 PM »
Excellent topic!  And wonderful posts.

For Alma, it was seeing Ennis and Jack kiss during the reunion.  It ate into her before she even understood what it all meant.

For Cassie, it was the exchange starting with "I don't get you, Ennis del Mar..."  It was an admisssion that she loved and continues to love in vain.


Offline JT

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #4 on: Jun 06, 2007, 12:37 PM »
Great subject indeed!

To me, another of Ennis' moment is finding the shirts in Jack's closet.  A wake up call to how much Jack loved him. 

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #5 on: Jun 06, 2007, 02:05 PM »
"I wish I knew how to quit you" is Jack's realization of his own helplessness in regard to Ennis and a sudden acknowledgement after all these years of the fact that he might be better off without him.
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2007, 11:32 PM by welshwitch »

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #6 on: Jun 06, 2007, 03:01 PM »
These are all excellent posts guys. Bits of insight into their states of mind at different times in their lives.
 They all learned that falling in love is the easy part. Being in love and staying in love is a little bit harder to achieve. It proved elusive to all of them.

 Had Jack lived 100 years, I don't think he would  ever forget this line.: "Aint no reins on this one"  This told Jack that Ennis, after all this time is without a doubt in love with him.  For a brief moment Jack had hope.  Something to take with him back to Texas.  For him it is a basis to continue trying. He had his heart and Ennis was actually admitting it in words. Ennis cannot bring himself to just say " I love you" but this is as close as it gets for him and Jack realized this. Sweet but sad too. 
 I'm a nightowl worker in RL so I must go , but I shall return !. Thanks. Later on fellow Brokies !
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #7 on: Jun 07, 2007, 12:35 AM »
there's Ennis reply to Jack's question as to whether he's going to try to go back to Brokeback the next summer and Ennis's reply that he's getting married and will try to get something on a ranch. That tells Jack that Ennis intends this to be the end of their relationship - hence the look on his face as he drives away.

Offline tpe

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #8 on: Jun 07, 2007, 12:21 PM »
For the elder Newsome: the Thanksgiving scene in Jack's house.  He realized there and then that Jack could stand up to him.  I wonder how many times this ever happened in his life -- where people actually stood up to him.  It seemed that he was used to always having his way...


manhattangirl

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #9 on: Jun 07, 2007, 04:40 PM »
What about when Jack driven all those miles for nothing, after Ennis wrote him about the divorce.  Ennis stumbling around trying to explain to Jack in strained words  how he misunderstood, how paranoid Ennis looked, clumsily explaining to Jack his girls were there, and to keep to the schedule,  seeing him the following month, and apologizing Jack for the misunderstanding.  How painful for Jack, and how sobering that moment was and what he did to make that pain go away. 

Offline tpe

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #10 on: Jun 07, 2007, 05:31 PM »
What about when Jack driven all those miles for nothing, after Ennis wrote him about the divorce.  Ennis stumbling around trying to explain to Jack in strained words  how he misunderstood, how paranoid Ennis looked, clumsily explaining to Jack his girls were there, and to keep to the schedule,  seeing him the following month, and apologizing Jack for the misunderstanding.  How painful for Jack, and how sobering that moment was and what he did to make that pain go away. 

Yes, I think this was the beginning of the end.  It was a milestone moment for Jack, when he probably first realized that his dream was not to be.


Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #11 on: Jun 07, 2007, 07:08 PM »
Great topic and great posts  :)

Jack:The Divorce scene
Jack wasn't worth the risk or Jack felt he wasn't. I think he did a LOT of thinking after that smackdown in the divorce scene- I'm sure that's not the first time he cried but I think it all really hit home for him that it was Ennis and no one else preventing them from being together; it was unavoidable at that point and on that long ride back to Texas, he had nothing but long hours and many miles to reflect on the last 12+ years. We've all been there- we "know" it but then comes a time when we KNOW it.  Jack was replaying their relationship, probably berating himself and the things he denied or pushed down all came to the surface. And sweet Jack disappeared into the darkness in Mexico.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #12 on: Jun 08, 2007, 06:32 AM »
that walk into the dark is like a descent into hell - it must have shown Jack what his life was - a loveless marriage, rejection by the man he had loved for years, paid-for sex in a dark alley. Hardly surprising that /randall's offer was a wake-up call to show him that there was another way.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #13 on: Jun 08, 2007, 08:06 AM »
 Probably hated himself  at moments during that long drive back to Texas. for not being able to stop himself from falling deeper into this thing with Ennis too. your so right. LJN, if I may. Jack loved him so deep that he was driven to tears behind this realization that it was Ennis , an essential part of himself  who was the culprit in them not being together, not Alma.
His frustration with Ennis, drove him to desperation and anger.  Ennis left him with no direction after this.

Yes, we've all been there as you said, So shocked at some realization that comes out of left field  suddenly and hits you upside the head.  someting that you just could'nt see or did;nt want to see. More anger is directed toward himself for not allowing himself to see what was right in front of his eyes. It's the old " how could I've been so stupid effect" !.......Yet he shows up again without delay the next month. He had it bad.

Another sobering moment  I think ,is when after all the "drinkin and talkin was done, Alma had to know things between her and Ennis would never be the same again.  How could she compete with Jack, another man for her husband's love ?
 She had no idea how to deal with this. By the time of the scene where Ennis is packing for yet another trip to *fish * with Jack, he 's so energized about  the whole thing, that he forgets his fishing  gear on the table. She had to know they were giving new meaning to the word *steelhead*. " Jack Nasty"  this fishing buddy from Texas, had stolen her man and she did'nt know how or when it actually happened. She had to think of her husband of four years in a very diferent light and that's hard. A sobering thought for her.

 Exactly WW . and in his state of mind at the time it must have felt like he was walking blindly into some other zone, not really of himself. or his world. A dark unknown place where solid reality does'nt exist for him. Calls of  of "Senor"  from male hustlers in his head ,he must have cursed Ennis.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline zephK

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #14 on: Jun 08, 2007, 08:42 PM »
...and now for something almost completely different:


Part 1.  Ennis and Jack, the Yin and the Yang, Caution and Abandon.

  Jack is always “trying” so hard because he doesn't have the patience or maturity to take responsibility for reaching solutions.  As Mr. Gyllenhall has said, just the “trying” to get it right is all he can manage.  (This may be one of the soul-scars left by Papa Twist, but Ennis is so in love with this “lovable loser” trait he sees it as "endearing," and it actually is a part of Jack's charm for him.  Jack may have loved “a little dog,” but Ennis loves Jack, likewise.)  Just as he shoots at the coyote without breathing or aiming properly, Jack habitually acts before really being ready to do the task: shooting the coyote, and missing for lack of preparing for the shot; “I can use a can opener,” and he spills the beans (!); bitchin’ at Ennis for being late with the supplies before he discovers that Ennis opened a head wound in a fall from the horse; blows up at LD on Thanksgiving – not saying LD didn’t deserve it all right, but still, Jack let fly with a few years of frustration all at that one moment, just like he fires his entire ar**nal at Ennis in the final fight.  Jack's personal history is one of precipitous actions, taken without preparation, before all the facts are considered.

Part 2:  The portrayal of the change in Jack’s thinking.


  For the longest time I couldn't understand the camera moves during Ennis's initial pleadings to Jack to understand (those aren't excuses - they're real, they're reasons):  at first Ennis is behind Jack's head, the he appears to the left of Jack (over Jack's right shoulder), in sharp focus.  By the time he gets to Don Wroe’s cabin,” He's headed back behind Jack's head, then out the other side, seen over Jack's left shoulder.  Then he goes back, blocked out by jack's head, and something happens:  The focus shifts from Ennis to Jack, who’s shaking before he speaks, saying, “Never enough time, never enough.”

Part 3:  The Sobering Moment.


  I think we are witnessing Jack decide to tell Ennis everything that's been on his mind for 20 yrs.  In warm-up to the grand bitch-out, Jack offers no help, no alternative and even seems to encourage the pent-up venom generated by 16 years of hard-packed frustration to explode all over Ennis.  He unreasonably places the entire burden of his problem on Ennis, as if his happiness were Ennis's responsibility.  As easily as Ennis could give up his fear of getting them killed, Jack could come up with a compromise - we are not shown that he even tried.  When he finally notices the anguish he’s caused Ennis, and finally can spare a thought for the man he loves, he puts the brakes on himself, stopping his horrendous tirade.  He knows how thoroughly hateful that he’s being because his intention is for these words to hurt, not to introduce or enhance a satisfactory resolution to his complaints.  Only when Ennis collapses does he recognize his incredibly striking progress towards the total demolition of the one he loves, and the drowsy embrace pops full-blown into his mind.  This is Jack, finally realizing that Ennis has loved him all along.

Part 4:  Good Reasons.


  And this is what all the yelling and whining and cheating is actually all about. The real result of the aching loneliness "inspired" by Papa Twist is Jack's biggest problem: "I need to be loved, all day long, every day, I need to know.  Reassure me."  In the midst of the fight, he remembers the long warm drowsy embrace, finally realizing that he’s had all along that “thing” he wanted most – by any other name, it is still love from Ennis.
  Just as everyone in the world knows Ennis is clueless about naming the “feeling,” the “thing” which makes the fishin’ trips irresistible to him, most don’t see that Jack, although an aggressive charmer, is equally clueless, and so it is, in this moment of utmost stress, he finally comes to the accurate conclusion that almost everything Ennis has done since they met has been to be with him, to comfort and protect him from the outrages of a hostile world.  It takes remembering the drowsy embrace of 20 yrs prior during a highly emotional crisis for him to actually remember the DE not only for his original negative assumptions about it (what it is not – not face to face, etc.)  but for what it accurately is: it is Ennis, nonverbally (as usual) speaking (and maybe even speaking beyond his capacity to comprehend thoroughly his own message - people do that, and Ennis is surely a person most likely to do that), saying I love you.
 
Part 5:  A realistic alternative conclusion.


As Ennis collapses, Jack ultimately and decisively remembers the DE as it really was: it was everything he wanted and his own anxiety prevented him from seeing.  It was simply Ennis, unconcerned with anything but Jack, there just to hold him.  Jack's "Eureka!" moment, he sees the break in the prince’s armor where the love has been showing all along!  He had feelings for me way back then!  He has feelings for me now!  He loves me!  The bastard lied, he isn’t straight.   It took me f*ckin’ long enough to get it.  Ah, sweet Jesus, I love him, what have I done to him, to us?  (Maybe this is something of what is behind the look on Jack's face as Ennis’s truck is going away.)
« Last Edit: Jun 09, 2007, 09:20 AM by zephK »
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Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #15 on: Jun 09, 2007, 11:57 PM »
Nice in-depth descriptions, zeph  :)

I agree with most of it. More specificly, I tend to agree up until certain points in nearly each paragraph. Where the weight becomes expressed exclusively on Jack, I tend to fall back to neutral. I can see how Jack was one to jump the gun, careless as he was. But I think this characteristic was also the necessary glue, time and time again - something almost identical to his bitching and lashing out. Given circumstance, they both had to lash out. And like how they reacted to love, this act, too, was quite a contrast. I think with having been starcrossed, yin/yang of Ennis and Jack was prominent as the foundation that would always support them when clearly nothing else around them would. They could only eventually agree with each other through the quiet means of rambunctious, secluded love.
When Jack comes off as unprepared, licentious or selfish, I think he's the most misunderstood cowboy, much before a gay one. I think like Ennis he's affected by nonverbal love. That is to say he can feel but not comprehend it. And I agree Jack's childhood must have been sacrificed by his dad's severely traditional ways, leaving his palms wide open. But I still tend to believe Jack's inner responsibility to care for the man he loves is his greatest (naive, yes) motivation, as he continuously interrupts Ennis' path towards becoming much too like father Twist who may not have been as silent as Ennis but in the name of love could only express something much more painful. Ennis' progressive resemblance to father Twist seemed climax before the peak of last confrontation.
To have made it 20 years, unable to verbalize love but able to dish out "... will get you killed if I come to know them" may be an example of how love would have always been conquered by fear had Jack not milked it for 20 years. He clearly understood Ennis needed him, and couldn't bare seeing him swallowed by the lost cause of his past; I'm not dismissng the idea that Jack is still looking to fill the void from his own, but I think he recognizes his father in his lover and something before doom is going to have to give.
And this is what he chooses to do - give love, present love (and yes, expect it as well). Both men need this comfort. Jack must have recognized that the only way to progress from the past is to change. Love already had their feet in the door. Jack wasn't about to shut the door and hide in his room. And Ennis didn't have one to hide into. So he did it with every step. Jack was Ennis' glimpse into the present which, alone, was out of Ennis' league.

When Jack watches the truck roll away into dust, I don't see Jack feeling as though he's pushed Ennis away. I think what hits jack is the sound of Ennis' own wheels and, as the dust begins to thin, the clarity of doom settling down not just with the weight of 20 hopeful years but with the past as a whole and, soon enough, the rest of his life.
But whether it were to come from Jack's redundant faith or his death, Ennis was destined to learn the language of love. He may have found it on some vulnerable SNIT wavelength. He may have seen it, looking out of his trailer's window, adjacent Alma Jr... He may finally have.
But what he didn't do this time was append the voice of his heart to the same dead end accord he'd thus far obeyed. Nope. This time he reckons those bigots can find themselves a new puppet cowboy.


Yes, perhaps a little after the fact, Ennis, but nonetheless ... good for you.

« Last Edit: Jun 10, 2007, 12:10 AM by orangetruck »
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #16 on: Jun 10, 2007, 03:10 AM »
...and now for something almost completely different:


Part 1.  Ennis and Jack, the Yin and the Yang, Caution and Abandon.

  Jack is always “trying” so hard because he doesn't have the patience or maturity to take responsibility for reaching solutions.  As Mr. Gyllenhall has said, just the “trying” to get it right is all he can manage.  (This may be one of the soul-scars left by Papa Twist, but Ennis is so in love with this “lovable loser” trait he sees it as "endearing," and it actually is a part of Jack's charm for him.  Jack may have loved “a little dog,” but Ennis loves Jack, likewise.)  Just as he shoots at the coyote without breathing or aiming properly, Jack habitually acts before really being ready to do the task: shooting the coyote, and missing for lack of preparing for the shot; “I can use a can opener,” and he spills the beans (!); bitchin’ at Ennis for being late with the supplies before he discovers that Ennis opened a head wound in a fall from the horse; blows up at LD on Thanksgiving – not saying LD didn’t deserve it all right, but still, Jack let fly with a few years of frustration all at that one moment, just like he fires his entire ar**nal at Ennis in the final fight.  Jack's personal history is one of precipitous actions, taken without preparation, before all the facts are considered.

Part 2:  The portrayal of the change in Jack’s thinking.


  For the longest time I couldn't understand the camera moves during Ennis's initial pleadings to Jack to understand (those aren't excuses - they're real, they're reasons):  at first Ennis is behind Jack's head, the he appears to the left of Jack (over Jack's right shoulder), in sharp focus.  By the time he gets to Don Wroe’s cabin,” He's headed back behind Jack's head, then out the other side, seen over Jack's left shoulder.  Then he goes back, blocked out by jack's head, and something happens:  The focus shifts from Ennis to Jack, who’s shaking before he speaks, saying, “Never enough time, never enough.”

Part 3:  The Sobering Moment.


  I think we are witnessing Jack decide to tell Ennis everything that's been on his mind for 20 yrs.  In warm-up to the grand bitch-out, Jack offers no help, no alternative and even seems to encourage the pent-up venom generated by 16 years of hard-packed frustration to explode all over Ennis.  He unreasonably places the entire burden of his problem on Ennis, as if his happiness were Ennis's responsibility.  As easily as Ennis could give up his fear of getting them killed, Jack could come up with a compromise - we are not shown that he even tried.  When he finally notices the anguish he’s caused Ennis, and finally can spare a thought for the man he loves, he puts the brakes on himself, stopping his horrendous tirade.  He knows how thoroughly hateful that he’s being because his intention is for these words to hurt, not to introduce or enhance a satisfactory resolution to his complaints.  Only when Ennis collapses does he recognize his incredibly striking progress towards the total demolition of the one he loves, and the drowsy embrace pops full-blown into his mind.  This is Jack, finally realizing that Ennis has loved him all along.

Part 4:  Good Reasons.


  And this is what all the yelling and whining and cheating is actually all about. The real result of the aching loneliness "inspired" by Papa Twist is Jack's biggest problem: "I need to be loved, all day long, every day, I need to know.  Reassure me."  In the midst of the fight, he remembers the long warm drowsy embrace, finally realizing that he’s had all along that “thing” he wanted most – by any other name, it is still love from Ennis.
  Just as everyone in the world knows Ennis is clueless about naming the “feeling,” the “thing” which makes the fishin’ trips irresistible to him, most don’t see that Jack, although an aggressive charmer, is equally clueless, and so it is, in this moment of utmost stress, he finally comes to the accurate conclusion that almost everything Ennis has done since they met has been to be with him, to comfort and protect him from the outrages of a hostile world.  It takes remembering the drowsy embrace of 20 yrs prior during a highly emotional crisis for him to actually remember the DE not only for his original negative assumptions about it (what it is not – not face to face, etc.)  but for what it accurately is: it is Ennis, nonverbally (as usual) speaking (and maybe even speaking beyond his capacity to comprehend thoroughly his own message - people do that, and Ennis is surely a person most likely to do that), saying I love you.
 
Part 5:  A realistic alternative conclusion.


As Ennis collapses, Jack ultimately and decisively remembers the DE as it really was: it was everything he wanted and his own anxiety prevented him from seeing.  It was simply Ennis, unconcerned with anything but Jack, there just to hold him.  Jack's "Eureka!" moment, he sees the break in the prince’s armor where the love has been showing all along!  He had feelings for me way back then!  He has feelings for me now!  He loves me!  The bastard lied, he isn’t straight.   It took me f*ckin’ long enough to get it.  Ah, sweet Jesus, I love him, what have I done to him, to us?  (Maybe this is something of what is behind the look on Jack's face as Ennis’s truck is going away.)


 Hi there Zephk, This is an excellent post with lots of legit points and I agree with most of them.

Your first point:
 Jack was one without the proper masculine role model as a child. His father pushed his very need to please him  away  , I think he learned that love and acceptance were fleeting. He never saw respect from the one person he was desperate to get it from. Think this what led to lack of "manly" skills in shooting, riding etc. Who taught him? Certainly not his old man.

 No one did, he no doubt taught himself. He had the basics, but lacked detail. Jack said " Never taught me a thing, never come to see me ride."  This is what I call totally ignored this is. It's a miracle he turned out as well adjusted as he was. But he had problems... self esteem and fear just like Ennis. Jack maintained sense enough to know that once you find a good thing, you hold on tight itand never let it go...This can be done to a fault.

Your second point:

 Jack was shaking his head thinking that "He's got time for everything and everybody but me. When you going to find time for me Ennis? Ennis is trying to appease Jack with hunting trips and other things, but Jack is getting the feeling that this was becoming a " bitch of an unsatisfactory situation" , then he compares now to the way things used to be. The status quo has worn thin.

Third point:

Jack is seeing his dream slowly dissolve  before his eyes. He tells Ennis BBM is what everything is built on, It all stems from that one summer, but now because of Ennis's refusal to ranch-up and live with him Ennis's has;nt progressed past that point of that summer, I think he was saying that he was living in the real world and was trying to let Ennis know that he was ready to take it all on , it's sink or swim together but Ennis could'nt buy that big of an adjustment in himself. 

They never discussed why they were doing what they were doing either. Deeds, events and actions spoke for them but this is sometimes not enough. If you never hear some verbal analysis from your partner, your asking for trouble imo Jack, did open up on Ennis with both barrels loaded, but he had to do it. 20 years holds alot of anger and resentment. Especially if Jack feels Ennis is reeponsible for putting him in positions of vulnerabilities and temptation by not being availiable at times when  a little TLC was needed. Ennis was'nt taking care of business in more ways than one.

In the meantime Ennis is thinking: Christ he's mad, reeaall mad. His reasons are also legit. He is not in the same jposition Jack is when it came to a job. Jack worked for a family owned business and he was in the family, which gave him a big advantage over Ennis as far as vacation time  or anytime a guy takes weeks off from work. Jack gets scolded, Ennis gets fired. So his reasons seem legit to me. Even reminded Jack of times when nieither had money. He stood his ground .

It was only a matter of time. or timing if you coulda asked Jack. But both had legit beefs to me , No surrender, no defeat, ..and no comprimise.

Forth point:
 There's nothing uncommon about a partner wanting reassurances  of their lover's commitment., but I feel Jack wanted respect and equality in the relationship, not a clinging, dependent  welp. He wants Ennis, but not smothering and breathing down his neck every day and night or vice-verse.  Just quiet reassurrance that Ennis was still his one and only. His dream can only survive if Ennis agrees to live with him taking the relationship to the next level. Ennis was not that and niether was Jack. Perhaps Jack saw in the DE the contraets in Ennis and the relationship then , when he was so full of hope for him and Ennis and now in the present there seems to be none.

Last point. I agree totally with this. To me it was Jack's most profound realization.


    Here's to you Zephk: They were two sheep
   
                                 Love was their sheperd   

                                 Fear was their predator  :cr) :c)
 

..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline jackster

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #17 on: Jun 10, 2007, 04:48 AM »
Great and insightful posts zephK, orangetruck, aintfoolin.

A very good discussion and analysis of what is –IMHO- the seminal “sobering moment” of the film, - the collapse of the strongman Ennis, the realization by Jack (as he holds him in his arms, the DE) that Ennis is vulnerable and truly needs him, and Jack’s “last look” which has been interpreted a hundred different ways (rightly so).

Really great work guys.  (:)  (:)  (:)
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Offline zephK

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #18 on: Jun 10, 2007, 09:52 AM »
Thank you orangetruck, ain'tfoolin', jackster.
   I do kinda beat up on poor Jack, a little, I think just because so many people elevate him to St Jack, the poor guy who has to put up with Ennis.  I think people do this because Jake Gyllenhall is a hottie (which has nothing to do with Jack Twist), and Ennis Del Mar doesn't give as much information verbally as they need to hear to get the story right.  But that's part of Ennis's personality, and is such an integral part of his life (a direct result of the shock of seeing poor old Earl's body with his d*ck ripped off), and Jack's pretty good at "reading" Ennis.  Unfortunately "reading" people's body language doesn't get you much information in the line of specifics about their hopes and dreams.  Imagine you being 9 and having your dad show you a neighbor's corpse, nose and d*ck scraped off or torn off, laying out on the ground, probably overnight, sadistically and sexually mutilated for reasons way beyond your comprehension.  That might put a crimp is your desire to be relaxed, friendly and carefree among your fellow man, despite your natural human needs to be so.
  But Ennis does do his part to protect and provide for Jack whenever they are together, it's just that Jack's needs for closeness and reassurance are greater than Ennis knows, or can know.  There are so many moments in Brokeback that could have been breakthrough events for them, but neither of them trusts their own judgment enough to recognize the "right" way or the "right" time; neither of them is equipped to know that they have together what everybody else aches for, that they are each the love of the other's lifetime; and both have incredibly valid reasons for being as unknowing and unable to recognize what they have, and for being as afraid as they are of taking the chances they get.  (If only Jack had done what I consider natural, and kissed Ennis's hand or arm when it was across his chest in the DE; if only Ennis had said, "Say Bud, can you give me a lift to the highway," at the end of the summer.  Just a few more minutes together and you know?  As far as they knew, at that instant, this was going to be the last opportunity they'd have to talk with one another.  At any rate, "what if..." doesn't solve the pain.)  Their own selves, with their doubts and fears prevent them from seeing what they're looking at: the love of a lifetime.
   Our perceptions are not very far apart at all orangetruck, thanks for your erudite comments; thanks for some great insight aintfoolin; and thanks for the observations and the compliment jackster.
Even the clouds cry for Ennis.

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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #19 on: Jun 10, 2007, 10:14 AM »
But whether it were to come from Jack's redundant faith or his death, Ennis was destined to learn the language of love.


Great post Orangetruck. This part imparticular set me off  :\'(
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline JT

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #20 on: Jun 10, 2007, 10:30 AM »
Nice in-depth descriptions, zeph  :)

I agree with most of it. More specificly, I tend to agree up until certain points in nearly each paragraph. Where the weight becomes expressed exclusively on Jack, I tend to fall back to neutral. I can see how Jack was one to jump the gun, careless as he was. But I think this characteristic was also the necessary glue, time and time again - something almost identical to his bitching and lashing out. Given circumstance, they both had to lash out. And like how they reacted to love, this act, too, was quite a contrast. I think with having been starcrossed, yin/yang of Ennis and Jack was prominent as the foundation that would always support them when clearly nothing else around them would. They could only eventually agree with each other through the quiet means of rambunctious, secluded love.
When Jack comes off as unprepared, licentious or selfish, I think he's the most misunderstood cowboy, much before a gay one. I think like Ennis he's affected by nonverbal love. That is to say he can feel but not comprehend it. And I agree Jack's childhood must have been sacrificed by his dad's severely traditional ways, leaving his palms wide open. But I still tend to believe Jack's inner responsibility to care for the man he loves is his greatest (naive, yes) motivation, as he continuously interrupts Ennis' path towards becoming much too like father Twist who may not have been as silent as Ennis but in the name of love could only express something much more painful. Ennis' progressive resemblance to father Twist seemed climax before the peak of last confrontation.
To have made it 20 years, unable to verbalize love but able to dish out "... will get you killed if I come to know them" may be an example of how love would have always been conquered by fear had Jack not milked it for 20 years. He clearly understood Ennis needed him, and couldn't bare seeing him swallowed by the lost cause of his past; I'm not dismissng the idea that Jack is still looking to fill the void from his own, but I think he recognizes his father in his lover and something before doom is going to have to give.
And this is what he chooses to do - give love, present love (and yes, expect it as well). Both men need this comfort. Jack must have recognized that the only way to progress from the past is to change. Love already had their feet in the door. Jack wasn't about to shut the door and hide in his room. And Ennis didn't have one to hide into. So he did it with every step. Jack was Ennis' glimpse into the present which, alone, was out of Ennis' league.

When Jack watches the truck roll away into dust, I don't see Jack feeling as though he's pushed Ennis away. I think what hits jack is the sound of Ennis' own wheels and, as the dust begins to thin, the clarity of doom settling down not just with the weight of 20 hopeful years but with the past as a whole and, soon enough, the rest of his life.
But whether it were to come from Jack's redundant faith or his death, Ennis was destined to learn the language of love. He may have found it on some vulnerable SNIT wavelength. He may have seen it, looking out of his trailer's window, adjacent Alma Jr... He may finally have.
But what he didn't do this time was append the voice of his heart to the same dead end accord he'd thus far obeyed. Nope. This time he reckons those bigots can find themselves a new puppet cowboy.


Yes, perhaps a little after the fact, Ennis, but nonetheless ... good for you.



I agree with you orangetruck.  Great post!

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #21 on: Jun 10, 2007, 10:38 AM »
                               
They were two sheep
   
                                 Love was their sheperd   

                                 Fear was their predator 

 



That is so beautifully said.  ^f^ :\'( IMO fear ruled them both- Jack had the fear of pushing Ennis away and ultimately losing him and Ennis's fear was that they'd get killed. I think in his own way Ennis was protecting Jack by refusing to be with him. He saw first hand what happens to "boys like them" and I think he loved Jack so much that he'd rather live a half of a life meeting a few times a year, thus keeping Jack "safe". But on the flip side of that is that the rejection(s) were doing damage too. Jack was the dreamer and I'm sure he knew the risks of ranching up but I think he'd rather have had five minutes of living the dream than to spend his life chasing something that was never going to be. Ennis ultimately has that sobering moment in Jack's closet when he finds the shirts and realizes there is a fate worse than death. I think in that moment he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. He spent his life trying to not end up like Earl and he ended up being Rich.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline JT

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #22 on: Jun 10, 2007, 11:03 AM »
That is so beautifully said.  ^f^ :\'( IMO fear ruled them both- Jack had the fear of pushing Ennis away and ultimately losing him and Ennis's fear was that they'd get killed. I think in his own way Ennis was protecting Jack by refusing to be with him. He saw first hand what happens to "boys like them" and I think he loved Jack so much that he'd rather live a half of a life meeting a few times a year, thus keeping Jack "safe". But on the flip side of that is that the rejection(s) were doing damage too. Jack was the dreamer and I'm sure he knew the risks of ranching up but I think he'd rather have had five minutes of living the dream than to spend his life chasing something that was never going to be. Ennis ultimately has that sobering moment in Jack's closet when he finds the shirts and realizes there is a fate worse than death. I think in that moment he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. He spent his life trying to not end up like Earl and he ended up being Rich.

What a great post, LJN!  Kind of ironic that Ennis tries to save them by being apart, but might have save Jack if he was there with him.  Yup, ended up like Rich, but unlike Rich, he didn't get a chance to live with Jack.

Offline zephK

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #23 on: Jun 10, 2007, 12:34 PM »
That is so beautifully said.  ^f^ :\'( IMO fear ruled them both- Jack had the fear of pushing Ennis away and ultimately losing him and Ennis's fear was that they'd get killed. I think in his own way Ennis was protecting Jack by refusing to be with him. He saw first hand what happens to "boys like them" and I think he loved Jack so much that he'd rather live a half of a life meeting a few times a year, thus keeping Jack "safe". But on the flip side of that is that the rejection(s) were doing damage too. Jack was the dreamer and I'm sure he knew the risks of ranching up but I think he'd rather have had five minutes of living the dream than to spend his life chasing something that was never going to be. Ennis ultimately has that sobering moment in Jack's closet when he finds the shirts and realizes there is a fate worse than death. I think in that moment he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. He spent his life trying to not end up like Earl and he ended up being Rich.

   Beautiful post LJN!  I think the bolded part is what kept me so low so long.  That and your following two sentences are the wake up call to all of us here - it's what keeps us posting and what drives us to eliminate the BS, and make changes for the better in our own lives.  What a masterful, affecting work of art this movie is.
Even the clouds cry for Ennis.

The avatar is made from their shirts.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #24 on: Jun 10, 2007, 04:57 PM »

......

   Our perceptions are not very far apart at all orangetruck, thanks for your erudite comments; thanks for some great insight aintfoolin; and thanks for the observations and the compliment jackster.

 :c)
One can learn a lot in their trip to/from Brokeback Mountain.

My observation of E and J hasn't yet been characterized by either one's looks. I have a (irritating) habit of focusing on the big picture even when it's considerably blurred by my own emotional responses. I couldn't possibly disagree that they're blind spots had notoriously blotted out critical points of love's progression.
Early on in the film I'd recognized, probably like many had, the fear surrounding the boys. And having been on my own Brokeback Mountain, shortcomings, facades and doom were clearly mocking the whole big picture and sooner than not it becomes apparent that Ennis, with Jack or not, was simply going to have to have the reality check Jack finally gave him, even just to cancel out the first wrongful and inhuman(e) one given him by his f***ed up father.
With this in mind, I'd thus far been naive to many surface matters of the last confrontation. At that point, for me, it was epic, almost ethereal in conjunction to where they'd both been so scheduled by the likes of everyone else.
I love the insight coming from all directions. But when we've analyzed to the point of placing suitcases in one man's hands as the other drives off recoils into the blackhole he'd been this close to being pulled out of, I think the big picture does flutter into the Grand Canyon. Love was a force of nature before it was a force of Jack.

 %) guys/gals.  ^f^
« Last Edit: Jun 10, 2007, 05:10 PM by orangetruck »
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #25 on: Jun 10, 2007, 05:07 PM »
Ennis ultimately has that sobering moment in Jack's closet when he finds the shirts and realizes there is a fate worse than death. I think in that moment he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. He spent his life trying to not end up like Earl and he ended up being Rich.


   Beautiful post LJN!  I think the bolded part is what kept me so low so long.  That and your following two sentences are the wake up call to all of us here - it's what keeps us posting and what drives us to eliminate the BS, and make changes for the better in our own lives.  What a masterful, affecting work of art this movie is.

This is what I'm talking about when I say 'big picture'. Jack clung to this while Ennis clung to dickless Earl. Each had fearful reasons, and each had sympathetic, caring reasons. But they work like yin and yang. I almost don't think the dynamic between Ennis and Jack could have been a more even scale in retrospect.

"You count the damn few times .. "  :\'(
             ***
Ennis opening his closet to see the shirts, to feel Jack's absense:
"Jack I swear.."

     ... just one more time.  :\'( :\'(

Agreed, beautiful.
« Last Edit: Jun 10, 2007, 08:37 PM by orangetruck »
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline zephK

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #26 on: Jun 10, 2007, 05:57 PM »
The short story from which the movie is made is one of the finest, and very possibly the finest, short story ever written.  It is character driven, and Mr. Proulx has stated that unlike any other characters she's created before, Ennis and Jack became real to her, offering insights into their own lives, their own behaviors, sometimes correcting her descriptions of themselves!  She says the story has been through over 60 rewrites - now, that's being in love with your job!
She created two guys around the same age who meet accidentally, applying with state agencies in different corners of the wide open spaces, by chance assigned to the same herd owner.  They are similar in every respect, including fathers who emotionally and psychologically abused them - jack was even physically abused by a father who actually could have been a closet case (he says he knows where Brokeback Mountain is - yes, it's not a physical place in our real world, that's why I think she's hinting).  Their differences are in their personalities, and in that, they each have what the other needs.

Some people give up on Ennis too soon, just as Jack is tempted, but Jack realizes more than most of us that Ennis will do anything and everything for him, except live tofether, which his experience tells him will get at least one of them killed..  With any other response than his collapse, I think it would've been possible for Jack to pack it in and say good bye, maybe forever, maybe for another four years.  Love and need are stronger than despair, so I believe he'd check in from time to time (said the romantic idealist).
  But of the ending to the big fight, Ms. Proulx says in the story, "Ennis was back on his feet somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car, and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."  They would be back together, at least as far as she was concerned.  (I accept her insight.)
Jack's death (whether murder or accident is unessential knowledge) comes right as Ennis discovers that his feelings for Jack are in fact love.  He comes to this Aha! moment when he sees the sorrowful Cassie, and hears her describe her sad story as due to love!  It all gels in this moment for Ennis who has yet to be told that his opportunity to live a love-filled life, the chance he had in his hands for 20 years, is gone forever.

For Jack, from Elegy in a Country Churchyard, Thomas Gray
    (written on the occasion of a young man's death, this is only the ending of the poem)

     >snip<

'There at the foot of yonder nodding beech
That wreathes its old fantastic roots so high.
His listless length at noontide would he stretch,
And pour upon the brook that babbles by.

'Hard by yon wood, now smiling as in scorn,
Muttering his wayward fancies he would rove;
Now drooping, woeful wan, like one forlorn,
Or crazed with care, or cross'd in hopeless love.

'One morn I miss'd him on the custom'd hill,
Along the heath, and near his favourite tree;
Another came; nor yet beside the rill,
Nor up the lawn, nor at the wood was he;

'The next with dirges due in sad array
Slow through the church-way path we saw him borne,-
Approach and read (for thou canst read) the lay      (the lay means the verse)
Graved on the stone beneath yon aged thorn.'         (graved =  chiseled in, from engraved)

The Epitaph

Here rests his head upon the lap of Earth
A youth to Fortune and to Fame unknown.
Fair Science frowned not on his humble birth,
And Melancholy marked him for her own.

Large was his bounty, and his soul sincere,
Heaven did a recompense as largely send:
He gave to Misery all he had, a tear,
He gained from Heaven ('twas all he wish'd) a friend.

No farther seek his merits to disclose,
Or draw his frailties from their dread abode
(There they alike in trembling hope repose),
The bosom of his Father and his God.

By Thomas Gray (1716-71).




Even the clouds cry for Ennis.

The avatar is made from their shirts.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #27 on: Jun 10, 2007, 06:14 PM »
"Ennis was back on his feet somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car, and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."  They would be back together, at least as far as she was concerned.  (I accept her insight.)
Jack's death (whether murder or accident is unessential knowledge) comes right as Ennis discovers that his feelings for Jack are in fact love.  He comes to this Aha! moment when he sees the sorrowful Cassie, and hears her describe her sad story as due to love!  It all gels in this moment for Ennis who has yet to be told that his opportunity to live a love-filled life, the chance he had in his hands for 20 years, is gone forever.




Nice. I'm still intrigued that Jack had a better grip on Ennis' susceptibility to love than Ennis himself had, until Cassie delivered the message to him. Smeared it on his toast even, made him choke it down.
These guys needed the same thing, had appropriate (and thick) personalities, but my gawd their timing was fucked.

 :c)
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline zephK

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #28 on: Jun 10, 2007, 06:50 PM »
Nice. I'm still intrigued that Jack had a better grip on Ennis' susceptibility to love than Ennis himself had, until Cassie delivered the message to him. Smeared it on his toast even, made him choke it down.
These guys needed the same thing, had appropriate (and thick) personalities, but my gawd their timing was f***ed.

 :c)

  Think about Ennis - who in his life ever talked with him about what love meant?  Nobody!  But worse than that, in his entire shy life, who did he have to model any kind of partnership on?  Not Mom and Dad, they died too young, just as he might be getting interested in the ways people interact with one another, relationshipwise.  His sister marries and doesn't come back, and his brother marries and throws him out.  Talk about a lifetime of rejection as well as there being a lack of couples around him, interacting, to educate him. 
  And about the timing?  The worst.  Ever.   :\'(
Even the clouds cry for Ennis.

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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Sobering Moments
« Reply #29 on: Jun 10, 2007, 07:04 PM »
 But of the ending to the big fight, Ms. Proulx says in the story, "Ennis was back on his feet somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car, and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."  They would be back together, at least as far as she was concerned.  (I accept her insight.)
Jack's death (whether murder or accident is unessential knowledge) comes right as Ennis discovers that his feelings for Jack are in fact love.  He comes to this Aha! moment when he sees the sorrowful Cassie, and hears her describe her sad story as due to love!  It all gels in this moment for Ennis who has yet to be told that his opportunity to live a love-filled life, the chance he had in his hands for 20 years, is gone forever.


Beautiful post  :\'(
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon