Topic: Sobering Moments

[JT]

Justin, you dirty boy!   

You're going to have three people spanking you.   


Ennis could really learn a lot about Jack from Mrs. Twist.  And Mrs. Twist can learn about their hard life up on Brokeback.  Like mother and son.  One lost his mom and one lost her son.

[aintfoolin]

  *Bologna spankings* are definitly off limits in the house of John Twist. You can definitly count on gettin kicked out.

The barn outside would'nt would'nt be a bad idea,though. It would drastically reduced your chances of gettin caught in the *intimate moment * with Ennis.

[zephK]

Justin, you dirty boy!   

You're going to have three people spanking you.   


Ennis could really learn a lot about Jack from Mrs. Twist.  And Mrs. Twist can learn about their hard life up on Brokeback.  Like mother and son.  One lost his mom and one lost her son.

four

  I dunno, does the punch count as a sobering moment?  I  mean it does change everything, drastically.

[tpe]

There's a tie-in here with the thread about what Ennis would do with Jack's ashes. I think Ma Twist desperately wanted and needed Ennis to come back and "liberate" her son's ashes from the family plot. That look in her eyes, when she had her "sobering moment" that the old man wasn't going to let Jack go, the pain and desperation she felt right then, that Ennis was her only hope of seeing that Jack's final wishes be carried out. Clutching her throat like she was being choked by the bitterness spewing from from her so called husband. Great work Roberta!!

I agree.

When she first sees Ennis come down with the shirts, you just see the spark of recognition.

And when John Twist tells Ennis that Jack was staying put, you could tell that she also felt stiffled -- with that gesture towards her neck.

This scene was her sobering moment, IMO.

[tpe]

I think since Jack was burried there, Ennis would come back and pay respect for his other half.  And yes, Mrs. Twist would want Ennis to liberate her son also. 

I would like to think that Ennis would look after Mrs. Twist also just like her own son would have.

What makes me hesistate is what was written in the screenplay: whenre the shirts were what remained of the power of BBM.

But surely he would not leave Jack alone indefinitely -- there in the midst of the grieving plain...

[tpe]

Since my first viewing, I have thought that Ennis would someday come back to visit.  There is something in Mrs. Twist's face when she tells him to come back that is compelling.  She's not just mouthing empty words, but has a deeper meaning.  I think Ennis would have picked up on that and would have accommodated her by returning someday.  Again, the look is subtle -- not a pleading look, but just a glance of itensity that raises her words to the level of need and truth.   Mom's face is marvelous throughout this whole scene.  She says more with just a stoic set to her face than words could ever express. She is used to keeping her feelings inside.  God knows, she wouldn't have been welcome to share them with the old man.  So, when Ennis comes, she has a lot to tell him, but, since she can't speak freely, she has to communicate with him through nonverbals, which she does SOOOOOOO very well. The offer of cherry cake is, I believe, a ploy to keep ENnis there longer.  She revels in his presence -- someone who knew and loved Jack for what he was. She had the paper bag ready when he came downstairs, knowing full well he would be bringing the shirts with him.  This made her so happy.  Oh, I have to quit this post -- can't type through the tears.

Beautifully argued, lamusica.  Would Ennis have resisted to stay away forever, after seeing her thus?

[tpe]

Two "sobering moments" here IMO, within minutes of each other - Ennis finds "the shirts", finally realizes the love and longing that Jack had for him since '63 and that he has had inside himself for Jack. Then, just moments later downstairs, old man Twist puffs up about "we got a family plot, and he's goin' in it", Mrs. T suddenly realizes Jack's not going back to Brokeback where he wanted. The exchange of looks here between Ennis and Mrs. T, their eyes and faces, whew! I'm gonna' have to go watch this again (and again).
 :\'(

Yes, both of them seem to have a near-simultaneous epiphany.  This is what makes this sequence so very intense to watch.

[zephK]

What makes me hesitate is what was written in the screenplay: when re the shirts were what remained of the power of BBM.

But surely he would not leave Jack alone indefinitely -- there in the midst of the grieving plain...

   Nice posts, Jackster, tpe, and beautifully argued, indeed, lamusica -  I too have seen this: silently with her eyes and face Mom lets Ennis know (and he does pick up on it) that Ennis is welcomed to come back and get Jack and put him where his heart always was, as soon as the old bastard dies, and with as much help as Mom can give.  (I've imagined them walking to that pitiful little cemetery, digging shallowly in the dry ground, Mom taking a symbolic dig or two of earth, freeing her son from his father's curse.) The shirts were the relics of the power that was Brokeback, but its power was to provide a world where they could get away from pain, fear and hate, where they could come to life, away from all their fears, obligations and expectations of misery, back to being able to care.  Ennis comes all the way back from a boy whose emotions and soul were straitjacketed by the horror in his childhood to a father who can ask his own child, "Does he love you?" and know what he's talking about.
   I would add even a third sobering moment in the Twist's kitchen - that look on Ennis's face when the bastard says "...and he's goin' in it."  It obvious he can't believe the old shit would be that mean, but he knows enough to agree and be quiet - he's read Mom that she wants no trouble with the bastard, and Ennis complies, looking a little more sober.

[orangetruck]

  Nice posts, Jackster, tpe, and beautifully argued, indeed, lamusica -  I too have seen this: silently with her eyes and face Mom lets Ennis know (and he does pick up on it) that Ennis is welcomed to come back and get Jack and put him where his heart always was, as soon as the old bastard dies, and with as much help as Mom can give.  (I've imagined them walking to that pitiful little cemetery, digging shallowly in the dry ground, Mom taking a symbolic dig or two of earth, freeing her son from his father's curse.) The shirts were the relics of the power that was Brokeback, but its power was to provide a world where they could get away from pain, fear and hate, where they could come to life, away from all their fears, obligations and expectations of misery, back to being able to care.  Ennis comes all the way back from a boy whose emotions and soul were straitjacketed by the horror in his childhood to a father who can ask his own child, "Does he love you?" and know what he's talking about.
   I would add even a third sobering moment in the Twist's kitchen - that look on Ennis's face when the bastard says "...and he's goin' in it."  It obvious he can't believe the old shit would be that mean, but he knows enough to agree and be quiet - he's read Mom that she wants no trouble with the bastard, and Ennis complies, looking a little more sober.

Extraordinarily put. 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Wonderful posts here.   I need to go back and read some of the earlier ones.

[jackster]

   I would add even a third sobering moment in the Twist's kitchen - that look on Ennis's face when the bastard says "...and he's goin' in it." 

Good observation zephK.
I've just watched this scene again and there's a fourth "moment" here in the kitchen that may have been mentioned before but I don't recall seeing it - old man Twist: "Then this spring, got another fella' gonna' come up here with him, build a place, help run the ranch . . . ", this revelation hits Ennis like a ton of bricks and you can see it in his face, they way it sags and looks like a little boy who just lost his puppy. At that moment Mrs. T puts her hand out to his shoulder to comfort him, like, it's alright, its alright, (same words spoken by Jack SNIT).
Ennis needs a hug. :\'(

[zephK]

Good observation zephK.
I've just watched this scene again and there's a fourth "moment" here in the kitchen that may have been mentioned before but I don't recall seeing it - old man Twist: "Then this spring, got another fella' gonna' come up here with him, build a place, help run the ranch . . . ", this revelation hits Ennis like a ton of bricks and you can see it in his face, they way it sags and looks like a little boy who just lost his puppy. At that moment Mrs. T puts her hand out to his shoulder to comfort him, like, it's alright, its alright, (same words spoken by Jack SNIT).
Ennis needs a hug. :\'(

   Oh yes, definitely a sobering moment for Ennis.  I have two things about this scene - I'm not at all sure that the rat is telling the truth: there's that long pause as he looks off as if to pluck something out of the air that will hurt his boy's lover.  I'm sure that's why the old jerk won't let Ennis take Jack's ashes - he says he knows where Brokeback Mountain is, and the only thing in the history of the world that's been Brokeback Mountain is this symbolic Eden where two young "ain't queer" boys can have sex together all summer long.  Perhaps Pa Twist has had his own FNITs (no SNITs, can't even phantom that one) and resents the happiness Ennis shared with his son that lasted all those years.  (Happiness he denied him.) Part two, which kind of drives and supports this theory, is that the old man doesn't look Ennis in the eye until he's trying to guage the effectiveness of his words.  BTW, whatever that medication he was taking, it wasn't working.  He was still breathing and talking after he took it.

[chameau]

Since my first viewing, I have thought that Ennis would someday come back to visit.  There is something in Mrs. Twist's face when she tells him to come back that is compelling.  She's not just mouthing empty words, but has a deeper meaning.  I think Ennis would have picked up on that and would have accommodated her by returning someday.  Again, the look is subtle -- not a pleading look, but just a glance of itensity that raises her words to the level of need and truth.  Mom's face is marvelous throughout this whole scene.  She says more with just a stoic set to her face than words could ever express. She is used to keeping her feelings inside.  God knows, she wouldn't have been welcome to share them with the old man.  So, when Ennis comes, she has a lot to tell him, but, since she can't speak freely, she has to communicate with him through nonverbals, which she does SOOOOOOO very well. The offer of cherry cake is, I believe, a ploy to keep ENnis there longer.  She revels in his presence -- someone who knew and loved Jack for what he was. She had the paper bag ready when he came downstairs, knowing full well he would be bringing the shirts with him.  This made her so happy.  Oh, I have to quit this post -- can't type through the tears.

Well said lamusica...  :\'(

[tpe]

Good observation zephK.
I've just watched this scene again and there's a fourth "moment" here in the kitchen that may have been mentioned before but I don't recall seeing it - old man Twist: "Then this spring, got another fella' gonna' come up here with him, build a place, help run the ranch . . . ", this revelation hits Ennis like a ton of bricks and you can see it in his face, they way it sags and looks like a little boy who just lost his puppy. At that moment Mrs. T puts her hand out to his shoulder to comfort him, like, it's alright, its alright, (same words spoken by Jack SNIT).
Ennis needs a hug. :\'(

I agree.  This was a moment that Ennis perhaps dreaded.  I was actually surprised that he didn't lose control at that moment in the movie -- but Mrs. Twist's intervention probably saved him. 

The revalation probably hurty Ennis deep inside -- someone in a previous thread had said that John Twist perhaps did this intentionally, knowing that it would hurt.

[aintfoolin]

To me personally I think OMT meant it.
Don't think he made it up, just to hurt Ennis intentionally.  I think it was said in the scene to show that Jack was thinking of quitting Ennis at some point and living with Randall. This knowledge hurt Ennis nonetheless. A wake up call  for im, a little to late.. A realization of how much Jack had hoped for a whole life with some one. This was stunning new news to Ennis. He had to wonder who this  ranch neighbor was at this point cuz Jack had mentioned earlier that it was the WIFE with whom he was having the affair with, not the guy himself.   
 The old man remembered exactly in what time frame Jack was planning or thinking about bringing the "other fella" up, ( then this spring...) so he saw a series of changes in Jack's life involving these two men. his lovers.
 fisrt it was Ennis for a while, then it changed to the ranch neighbor.

 How else could he put 2 and 2 together concerning Jack and his *ranch neighbor*?  unless Jack brought it up in the context of  promising to bring one of them up to  help whip the ranch into shape.. Ennis is one thing , Jack truly loved him, but Randall? a different story. It all  suggests  to me that the old  man was telling Ennis that he realized exactly who he was and what the relationship was between Ennis and his son. " Another fella" speaks volumes to me.  Jack was'nt bringing  pretty girls home to meet the parents,, not even Lureen.  only men......although personally, I think Jack had great tastes in his choices. I feel Jack was working on living with Randall  when he died.

[orangetruck]

To me personally I think OMT meant it.
Don't think he made it up, just to hurt Ennis intentionally.  I think it was said in the scene to show that Jack was thinking of quitting Ennis at some point and living with Randall. This knowledge hurt Ennis nonetheless. A wake up call  for im, a little to late.. A realization of how much Jack had hoped for a whole life with some one. This was stunning new news to Ennis. He had to wonder who this  ranch neighbor was at this point cuz Jack had mentioned earlier that it was the WIFE with whom he was having the affair with, not the guy himself.   
 The old man remembered exactly in what time frame Jack was planning or thinking about bringing the "other fella" up, ( then this spring...) so he saw a series of changes in Jack's life involving these two men. his lovers.
 fisrt it was Ennis for a while, then it changed to the ranch neighbor.

 How else could he put 2 and 2 together concerning Jack and his *ranch neighbor*?  unless Jack brought it up in the context of  promising to bring one of them up to  help whip the ranch into shape.. Ennis is one thing , Jack truly loved him, but Randall? a different story. It all  suggests  to me that the old  man was telling Ennis that he realized exactly who he was and what the relationship was between Ennis and his son. " Another fella" speaks volumes to me.  Jack was'nt bringing  pretty girls home to meet the parents,, not even Lureen.  only men......although personally, I think Jack had great tastes in his choices. I feel Jack was working on living with Randall  when he died.

So I agree that Randall was a different story.   
A tourniquet for the mean meantimes.

[jackster]

I feel Jack was working on living with Randall  when he died. 

So I agree that Randall was a different story.

Kinda OT here - but then OMT says "But like most a Jack's ideas, never come ta' pass . . ."  What goin' on here? There's the obvious Randall storyline, but after talkin' 'bout Ennis for what, a dozen years or more, then Jack starts talkin' about a new guy. But then he can't make that happen either. Why did he mention it if he wasn't sure he was able to make it happen? It would just make him look like more of a loser to OMT wouldn't it? Did he and Randall then "split up"? Yeah, Jack's a dreamer so he has  lotsa ideas - A Sweet Life, just to mention one, but this whole thing about it not happening (with Randall) doesn't seem very well worked out to me. Am I off base here, huh?

[orangetruck]

Kinda OT here - but then OMT says "But like most a Jack's ideas, never come ta' pass . . ."  What goin' on here? There's the obvious Randall storyline, but after talkin' 'bout Ennis for what, a dozen years or more, then Jack starts talkin' about a new guy. But then he can't make that happen either. Why did he mention it if he wasn't sure he was able to make it happen? It would just make him look like more of a loser to OMT wouldn't it? Did he and Randall then "split up"? Yeah, Jack's a dreamer so he has  lotsa ideas - A Sweet Life, just to mention one, but this whole thing about it not happening (with Randall) doesn't seem very well worked out to me. Am I off base here, huh?

For some reason I've always seen it as this:
Jack and Ennis were a starcrossed love, and his dream of living with a man Ennis was born under this star, on the mountain, with just him.
Jack and Ennis wouldn't come to pass because of Ennis' past, the time and the place; Randall and Jack wouldn't because there wasn't a past. There was merely the incentive for Jack to cope in Ennis' absense. There was no other foundation other than Ennis. I think with this established foundation, OMT was able to deliberate, reconstruct, and communicate directly with Ennis without 'outing' OMT's shaded sentiments, if not other.
On the other side of the token, the most Jack could do to express his true self probably was to mention 'bringing guys back' to build something. Any son wants understanding from their parents. Jack .. he couldn't blatantly suggest Ennis was the one and only love of his life, true as this is.
 

[jackster]

When OMT says, “Then this spring . . . “ is “this spring” the time Jacks visits LF after the “quit you” argument with Ennis in May? Jack said then that he was going to visit his folks for a few days. Does he tell them he’s got another fella at that time? Did he know this when he and Ennis had the argument? Sorry if this OT, but it seems kind of related to the sobering moment(s) in this scene and the Argument scene too. Is Ennis realizing this at the Twist table and putting the “quit you” and “another fella” statements together in his head? Maybe I’m just dense but I guess I never realized the possible direct connection here.
 

[manhattangirl]

Randall was already Jack's lover by the time of final confrontation.  I always had the feeling when Ennis ask Jack if he had a better idea, and Jack said "I did once", he was talking about Randall, but Ennis assume it was Mexico,  Jack went along with it.   So when Jack went to LF, after that, he spoke of Randall and not Ennis.      When Old Man Twist was telling the story to Ennis, he must have put it together, because if looks could kill,  Old Man Twist was a goner.

[orangetruck]

I think if anything, Ennis may have been shocked briefly by OMT's 'spring' talk, but only briefly. Even provided Ennis did make such a connection between 'Quitting him' and 'fella'. Ennis, although coming across like a poorly educated stoic, must have been able to put 2 and 2 together for Jack's compensating his deprived heart in the process of their relationship over 20 years. And if he was somehow led to believe something other than being the one with Jack's heart, the shirts later would bring it back to simple for him.
For me, Randall still very much remains a benign tremor in the development of E and J's love. Too much rehashing of the Twist's house scene is depressing the hell out of me. Knowing it's minutes from the symbol of lost love to be found upstairs, in the closet among some old boots, jeans, cowboy clothing, with a window looking out into the yard and the open; this view must have accumulated so many of Jack's thoughts - a place heavy with the dreams of not just Jack nor just Ennis, but a couple.
He may even have seen both himself and Ennis outside in that yard. I believe that's how deep his love for Ennis goes.
Or so I like to believe.
 

[lamusica]

IMO, OMT is such a little shit!  He is a mean-spirited old fool and has to let everyone he comes in contact with know he is the stud-duck of that household.  I'm sure his demeanor didn't shock Ennis; he had heard the stories from Jack about his father's coldness and lack of caring, and Ennis's own father was less than warm and sweet!!!LOL!  I just think Ennis will do what he wants to do, as he always does, and will come back someday and take Jack's ashes where they need to be. If there were ever a sequel, that would be a good place to start.  Let Ennis come back from the PO with a postcard from Mom Twist saying the old man "bought the farm".  That's all she needs to write.  Ennis will know that means he needs to get up to LF and take care of business. The sequel could contain flashback scenes of Jack and with Jack and Ennis together, and there we go -- another insight into this great love affair.  Maybe Mom Twist will come home with Ennis and make him a nicer lifef!  I can't wait!

[tpe]

Randall was already Jack's lover by the time of final confrontation.  I always had the feeling when Ennis ask Jack if he had a better idea, and Jack said "I did once", he was talking about Randall, but Ennis assume it was Mexico,  Jack went along with it.   So when Jack went to LF, after that, he spoke of Randall and not Ennis.      When Old Man Twist was telling the story to Ennis, he must have put it together, because if looks could kill,  Old Man Twist was a goner.

I had interpreted "I did once" in a different way.  When Jack said this, he wanted to remind Ennis of the time he asked him to join him in  a sleep life together (during the reunion).  The remembrance of this lost opportunity hurt Ennis -- because Jack was implicitly blaming him for the lost opportunity.  When such a thing happens, it is natural for a person to counter with any kind of recrimmination he knew about the other person.  IN this case, Ennis retaliated by reminding Jack of Mexico and all his escapades.  I think this is very faithful to what Proulx meant when she wrote:

Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable—admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears—rose around them.

[aintfoolin]

When OMT says, “Then this spring . . . “ is “this spring” the time Jacks visits LF after the “quit you” argument with Ennis in May? Jack said then that he was going to visit his folks for a few days. Does he tell them he’s got another fella at that time? Did he know this when he and Ennis had the argument? Sorry if this OT, but it seems kind of related to the sobering moment(s) in this scene and the Argument scene too. Is Ennis realizing this at the Twist table and putting the “quit you” and “another fella” statements together in his head? Maybe I’m just dense but I guess I never realized the possible direct connection here.
 

 When OMT mentioned the *ranch neighbor* Ennis must have gotten a clue. He'd heard of this person before from Jack himself the night before the fight. Jack had mentioned him right before he said, "truth is , sometimes I miss you so much etc...." suggesting that although there were other temptations out there , ( like the ranch guy's wife or the guy himself , Ennis was the one he longed for the most. I feel he was already on the road to quitting Ennis then  or at least thinking on it. as Randall was already in the mix.  Apparently Jack had invited Randall to come to LF or at least mentioned it to his parents that there was another guy.
This seems plausible during the visit after the argument. If he coul d'nt convince Ennis to set up a life with him, there was Randall, although second choice for Jack but he was an important factor. By not removing the shirts from the closet, or disturbing them in any way, Jack was saying in this way that no matter who he was bringing up in his place Ennis will always be the one and only in his heart. The one he wanted and loved the most.

It must have been a sobering moment for Mrs. Twist when she discovered that her son had another lover, after so much talk about Ennis for years. I wonder what she thought of the fact that Jack had another *fella* besides the one who had such a gift of love hanging upstairs in the closet?

[orangetruck]

It must have been a sobering moment for Mrs. Twist when she discovered that her son had another lover, after so much talk about Ennis for years. I wonder what she thought of the fact that Jack had another *fella* besides the one who had such a gift of love hanging upstairs in the closet?

I'd think the realization of Jack's other 'lover' didn't hold much weight with Mrs. Twist. I think if anything, she may have easily recognized it as a way for Jack to 'get by' while living for Ennis. She may have even found a similarity between this and her sticking it out with OMT.    I mean he's not exactly a bowl of cherries.
     She must have felt genuine love with another (or OMT at some point) and, like Jack, couldn't then make it alone. She holds on to OMT and probably saw this Randall guy as something systematic delivering Jack from one moment to the next for the condition of Ennis.
Anyway, she probably brushed Randall off as clutter, something filling Jack's atmosphere until his true love Ennis were to settle in like the cement Jack needed. And the shirts upstairs were Mrs. Twist's way of knowing the specific ingredients of that cement. Anything else would just be filler.

[tpe]

I'd think the realization of Jack's other 'lover' didn't hold much weight with Mrs. Twist. I think if anything, she may have easily recognized it as a way for Jack to 'get by' while living for Ennis. She may have even found a similarity between this and her sticking it out with OMT.    I mean he's not exactly a bowl of cherries.
     She must have felt genuine love with another (or OMT at some point) and, like Jack, couldn't then make it alone. She holds on to OMT and probably saw this Randall guy as something systematic delivering Jack from one moment to the next for the condition of Ennis.
Anyway, she probably brushed Randall off as clutter, something filling Jack's atmosphere until his true love Ennis were to settle in like the cement Jack needed. And the shirts upstairs were Mrs. Twist's way of knowing the specific ingredients of that cement. Anything else would just be filler.

INteresting points here, orangetruck.

While I am not certain how she may have viewed the ranch neighbor, I do think Mrs. Twist did understand the bond that her son had for Enis.

I think this was the clear thing in that sobering moment when Ennis came down with the shirts -- it was almost like an affirmation of what she had known all along.  She was probably not surprised that Ennis chose the shirts -- she was probably guiding him to it.

[welshwitch]

Does anyone else thnk as I do that it must have been a pretty sobering moment for OMT when Ennis appeared ? He'd been hearing about him for years, and knew he had always failed to come with Jack - now suddenly when Jack is dead there is Ennis. I wonder if heds thought that both Ennis and the other man Jack mentioned were both figments of Jack's imagination, or at least less of a feature of his life than Jack had made out?

[jackster]

Does anyone else think as I do that it must have been a pretty sobering moment for OMT when Ennis appeared?

Yes indeed WW, me too, and good point. It may have part of the reason OMT won't give up Jack's ashes. His way of sayin' "He's not yours, he's mine. You two go playing around all them years and then you finally show up here wanting his ashes - no way!" Just being a SOB.

[tpe]

Does anyone else thnk as I do that it must have been a pretty sobering moment for OMT when Ennis appeared ? He'd been hearing about him for years, and knew he had always failed to come with Jack - now suddenly when Jack is dead there is Ennis. I wonder if heds thought that both Ennis and the other man Jack mentioned were both figments of Jack's imagination, or at least less of a feature of his life than Jack had made out?

Yes, now that you mentioned it, it probably must have been a sobering moment.

Did John Twist sit in judgement on Ennis?  Was it a post-mortem passing of judgement on his son, knowing full well that Ennis was clearly the object of his son's admiration and affection?  Was there a hint of jealousy?  Was there a hint of getting back on the object of his son's true affections?

[tpe]

Yes indeed WW, me too, and good point. It may have part of the reason OMT won't give up Jack's ashes. His way of sayin' "He's not yours, he's mine. You two go playing around all them years and then you finally show up here wanting his ashes - no way!" Just being a SOB.

jackster, I think you answered part of my question(s) here.