Topic: If Ennis never met Jack.

[goblondie]

If Ennis hadn't met Jack,do you think he ever would have discovered his homosexual side? Would the idea of homosexuality ever have occurred to him?
When he was nine his father shoved him what could happen if two men lived together ,also Ennis had his girlfriend Alma.So I think the idea of him himself being bi or homo never occured to him.
In Jack he fiends a soulmate,a person who listen to him ,a connection that he never finds again with another person,either man or woman. Jack loves him without any expecting anything else than love in return, he is willing to drive miles to be with Ennis and if Ennis want him ,he will leave his wife to live with him.Also the sexual attraction is there of course, the are both attractive men. But they love each other because of who they are and not because of gender.I think Ennis is more bisexual than homo.  Love between people are blind.

[tpe]

This is a difficult question.  Thanks goblondie.

A part of me would say that he would have gone through life subconsciously repressing his homosexual side.  He probably would have not been aware of it -- except for a misunderstood vein of unhappiness/dissatisfaction.

But I truly wonder if anybody with homosexual tendencies could really ever hide it from himself.  I speak here from experience.  I have strong clear memories of how I got to find out about my own feelings.  It is not something vague -- it hit me like a rock.  There was no denying it.

 

[welshwitch]

I think Ennis would have repressed most of his sexual feelings once he'd been married for a few years. I don't think he was the sort to look into himself and try to discover what he was like or what he needed. Nor do I think he was capableof being detached aboutit - being "queer" wasn't something he would contemplate.I also think that if he'd been approached by another man, later in life and in different circumstances, he'd probably have reacted as violently as he did in the July 4th scene or the one with the driver outside the bar.

[tpe]

Perhaps Ennis also considered Marriage as an antidote to the "unnatural" feelings he harbored inside.

Had he never met Jack, perhaps he would have channeled his repressed desires into his marriage.  I have heard that people did this and continue to do so.  It is perhaps an act of subtle substitution -- or projection.

[manhattangirl]

This is such an interesting question.

IMO:  Having never met Jack, and living a life with Alma repressing what feelings he had inside,  I would think at some point in his life there would be someone that would have touched all that he was feeling.  And we taling of stakes being higher than when he was a young man.   

I wonder if compariave feelings would have been more of factor,  being with Alma for a number of years, than some else who is bringing out truer feelings within him.   The question becomes who am I really? 

[tpe]

This is such an interesting question.

IMO:  Having never met Jack, and living a life with Alma repressing what feelings he had inside,  I would think at some point in his life there would be someone that would have touched all that he was feeling.   And we taling of stakes being higher than when he was a young man. 

I wonder if compariave feelings would have been more of factor,  being with Alma for a number of years, than some else who is bringing out truer feelings within him.   The question becomes who am I really? 
 

manhattangirl, I do think that this is quite plausible.  For me, it is based on the premise that you can't hide your true nature from yourself forever.  Perhaps someone in his future would have resonated with his inner self, the same way Jack had done.

I doubt that he would take the initiativem though.  That person must be like Jack, who was not afraid to take the initiative.

[aintfoolin]

Yes, I feel that sooner or later had he never met Jack,  and married Alma, Ennis would find himself doing little subtle things like looking at other men in a sexual way,and finding them attractive. But I agree he would never be the initiator in the introduction.
 I would not discount this idea of Ennis's repressed homosexuality coming through in a number of  subtle, un-consious ways. I think Jack picked up on this very clearly on BBM... and some one else could do the same but they would have to know the meaning of the word * descretion*  This is essential in bringing Ennis *out*.  More keenly aware of his own sexuality, Jack identified  something in Ennis that Ennis did'nt even see in himself or was'nt concious of it. In the opening scene, what I see is an attraction to Jack if only just as a man to man thing when he first laid eyes on him,  had to see Jack  as an attractive, masculine man if nothing else at the time. 
 Ennis had probably known attractive boys in high school, but none probably  ever engaged him . Jack did.

[tpe]

***

 I would not discount this idea of Ennis's repressed homosexuality coming through in a number of  subtle, un-consious ways. I think Jack picked up on this very clearly on BBM... and some one else could do the same but they would have to know the meaning of the word * descretion*  This is essential in bringing Ennis *out*.  More keenly aware of his own sexuality, Jack identified  something in Ennis that Ennis did'nt even see in himself or was'nt concious of it. In the opening scene, what I see is an attraction to Jack if only just as a man to man thing when he first laid eyes on him,  had to see Jack  as an attractive, masculine man if nothing else at the time. 
 Ennis had probably known attractive boys in high school, but none probably  ever engaged him . Jack did.

Sexuality has a way of asserting itself in ways that we cannot completely fathom, and I do think Ennis is not an exception.

Jack didn't make Ennis homosexual -- it lay dormant inside Ennis, waiting for the right person who had the key to unlock it.

But yes, Jack must have identified it.  Randall must have recognized the dame thing in Jack...

The possibility for others doing so in the case of Ennis may have just been a matter of time...

[goblondie]

Sexuality has a way of asserting itself in ways that we cannot completely fathom, and I do think Ennis is not an exception.

Jack didn't make Ennis homosexual -- it lay dormant inside Ennis, waiting for the right person who had the key to unlock it.

But yes, Jack must have identified it.  Randall must have recognized the dame thing in Jack...

The possibility for others doing so in the case of Ennis may have just been a matter of time...

I dont know if anyone but Jack would get near to Ennis sexuality as homo, Ennis is not a person who allows many people to get near him or his privacy. Also with his experience as a child when he saw what would happen to two men living together I find it difficult to see.
Jack got near to Ennis cause the two of them were alone and Jack is a open person .Jack took the time to get near Ennis and listen to him and touch his feelings.

[tpe]

I dont know if anyone but Jack would get near to Ennis sexuality as homo, Ennis is not a person who allows many people to get near him or his privacy. Also with his experience as a child when he saw what would happen to two men living together I find it difficult to see.
Jack got near to Ennis cause the two of them were alone and Jack is a open person .Jack took the time to get near Ennis and listen to him and touch his feelings.

Yes, people like Ennis don't often find the right person who unlocks their innermost selves.

My old friend Robert was once seduced by a seemingly straight (and very religious) acquaintance in his youth.   The relationship lasted a few weeks until Robert decided that it would not work, given the person's complicated view of his own sexuality (not unlike Ennis). 

Robert moved on, but apparently, the guy did not.  He apparently continued to live his life as if suspended in that relatively brief moment.  He had in the past even blamed Robert for many subsequent things (not unlike Ennis).  But he couldn't find anybody else apparently.   For this acquaintance, it seemd that the right moment had passed...

 

[welshwitch]

Is it true that most people are capable of finding an attraction to someone of the same sex, who is or may be the one ,yet not considering a same-sex relationship as possible and so dismissing what might have been a great love, the great love even? In that case one might go through th rest of one's life without finding anyone else with whom one felt the same sense of connection.

I think ennis would have been quite capable of marrying Alma, feeling vaguely dissatisfied, especially as time went on, but never admitting to himself what he really needed to find.

[tpe]

Is it true that most people are capable of finding an attraction to someone of the same sex, who is or may be the one ,yet not considering a same-sex relationship as possible and so dismissing what might have been a great love, the great love even? In that case one might go through th rest of one's life without finding anyone else with whom one felt the same sense of connection.

I do think this is possible.

I think ennis would have been quite capable of marrying Alma, feeling vaguely dissatisfied, especially as time went on, but never admitting to himself what he really needed to find.

I agree with this.  I think I feel pretty much the same way, although I think it is possible that he may sooner or later come to understand the root of this vague dissatisfaction.

[aintfoolin]

I agree with this also. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have married Alma and lived a somewhat discontented existence as we saw. He always seemed to long for something more. The same with Cassie.
 His experience with Jack, on BBM was something that stayed with him. It affected him deeply as anything that becomes a part of us does.  Ennis thought about Jack and those moments on BBM long after marrying Alma and becoming a father. This suggests to me that Ennis's homosexuality was a part of him all along, I think he found Jack sexually attractive from the start. His mannerisms when he first saw him( Not looking Jack straight in the eyes , looking away, playing wih the watch etc.. anything except looking at this gourgeous cowboy right in front of him. Gives it away IMO. Something was stirred inside him and it did'nt get no better than this, Jack Twist, cowboy, same background and upbringing, and that engaging smile. With an added bonus of being gay, Jack had an insight into Ennis, that even Ennis did'nt have or wanted to ever face within himself. Alma did'nt have a clue after 4 years of marriage who Ennis really was. Jack knew within months.
Then the way the whole introduction to each other went down. Unexpectedly thrown together on an isolated mountain in the middle of nowhere. All the elements where in place for this relationship to develop undisturbed. Had Ennis never met Jack, I feel he would have never acted upon these repressed feelings unless some one with Jack's same qualities, approach ,and a keen patient insight into him, like Jack possesed came along and initiated a relationship.  It's possible. MO

[tpe]

I agree with this also. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have married Alma and lived a somewhat discontented existence as we saw. He always seemed to long for something more. The same with Cassie.
 His experience with Jack, on BBM was something that stayed with him. It affected him deeply as anything that becomes a part of us does.  Ennis thought about Jack and those moments on BBM long after marrying Alma and becoming a father. This suggests to me that Ennis's homosexuality was a part of him all along, I think he found Jack sexually attractive from the start. His mannerisms when he first saw him( Not looking Jack straight in the eyes , looking away, playing wih the watch etc.. anything except looking at this gourgeous cowboy right in front of him. Gives it away IMO. Something was stirred inside him and it did'nt get no better than this, Jack Twist, cowboy, same background and upbringing, and that engaging smile. With an added bonus of being gay, Jack had an insight into Ennis, that even Ennis did'nt have or wanted to ever face within himself. Alma did'nt have a clue after 4 years of marriage who Ennis really was. Jack knew within months.
Then the way the whole introduction to each other went down. Unexpectedly thrown together on an isolated mountain in the middle of nowhere. All the elements where in place for this relationship to develop undisturbed. Had Ennis never met Jack, I feel he would have never acted upon these repressed feelings unless some one with Jack's same qualities, approach ,and a keen patient insight into him, like Jack possesed came along and initiated a relationship.  It's possible. MO

What you say about ALma not having a clue is so interesting.  Perhaps it was part of Ennis's intention -- to marry someone who wouldn't be probing too deep into him, no?  Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have probably surrounded himself with people who would never know his true self.  Perhaps for Ennis, this would have passed for happiness...

[manhattangirl]

I agree with this also. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have married Alma and lived a somewhat discontented existence as we saw. He always seemed to long for something more. The same with Cassie.
 His experience with Jack, on BBM was something that stayed with him. It affected him deeply as anything that becomes a part of us does.  Ennis thought about Jack and those moments on BBM long after marrying Alma and becoming a father. This suggests to me that Ennis's homosexuality was a part of him all along, I think he found Jack sexually attractive from the start. His mannerisms when he first saw him( Not looking Jack straight in the eyes , looking away, playing wih the watch etc.. anything except looking at this gourgeous cowboy right in front of him. Gives it away IMO. Something was stirred inside him and it did'nt get no better than this, Jack Twist, cowboy, same background and upbringing, and that engaging smile. With an added bonus of being gay, Jack had an insight into Ennis, that even Ennis did'nt have or wanted to ever face within himself. Alma did'nt have a clue after 4 years of marriage who Ennis really was. Jack knew within months.
Then the way the whole introduction to each other went down. Unexpectedly thrown together on an isolated mountain in the middle of nowhere. All the elements where in place for this relationship to develop undisturbed. Had Ennis never met Jack, I feel he would have never acted upon these repressed feelings unless some one with Jack's same qualities, approach ,and a keen patient insight into him, like Jack possesed came along and initiated a relationship.  It's possible. MO

Totally agree with what aintfoolin said.  I may be wrong on this, but I think Jack became part of Ennis that first summer.   It was Ennis who made the first move, by trying to please Jack in his way, he put out the signals to Jack.   Ennis wanted Jack that first day, and got him.  If he hadn't met Jack, I think Ennis would have been one of those men, who after work come home eat supper, and plant themselves in front of the TV never moving, talking, expressing themselves, but only react to actions around them.  This I've seen happen myself, men who never put out not even a clue about who they were really, but you could almost count their frustrations by the cans of beer they drank, and live that way until they die.  And you wonder who they really were.   

[welshwitch]

More to the point, they probably wonder, if they're that introspective, who they are. That was Ennis's problem, that he had a feeling that he knew who he was and didn't like it, so he repressed it and tried to live exactly like everyone else in his social group.

[aintfoolin]

You are so right MG. And I feel this is what Alma saw Ennis becoming in the marriage. I would'nt say Ennis did'nt love his family, but appeared bored and restless at times. A night off laid out on the couch watching Kojak with a beer was as exciting as it got apparently for them. Unless a visit to the local church, ( the *fire and brimestone crowd* was an alternative. Ennis seemed  NOT too fired up about that suggestion either.

Jack provided excitment  and adventure in Ennis and for him with his charming goofiness. Jumping off a cliff buck-naked is fun, Sitting in front of the TV? NOT!  He brought out Ennis's fun side in my opinion with his unexpected pleasures.  social graces be damned. A challenge to Ennis's stoic personality.

[lamusica]

I don't think Ennis would have ever found anyone else like Jack.  First, he just found Jack as a co-worker, then a friend, then, eventually, a lover.  At that point, he knew Jack was someone he did not want to lose.  When he did lose him, he was devastated.  I don't think there would have been another set of circumstances that came together in Ennis's life where someone else would have been his "Jack".  Ennis seemed to have no friends.  He worked all the time and, when not working, was home with Alma and the girls.  He's a lonely man -- has no clue what is missing in his life, but, I think, he realizes something is not right.  Life is not complete.  The only time that feeling goes away is when he and Jack get together.  Finally, he admits to himself he loves Jack.  I just don't think he would have ever admitted to loving any other man because the circumstances would never have been right for it to happen.  With Ennis, his relationship with Jack is sex, but a WHOLE LOT of friendship, companionship, oneness......

[ragtimecowboy]

I think that Ennis would have a vague sense of never beeing really satisfied with Alma or his lot in life but couldn't quite put his finger on it -if he had never met Jack. The fear springing from the sight of the dead cowboy that  his father forced him to view plus his words would probably keep him from even dwelling on it.
Interesting would have been his response to another man that picked up on this and tried approach him. He may have gotten violent as some men do and acted out. or tucked tail and run. Jack was a very unique person in many ways, he complimented Ennis in so many ways that they fit together smoothly like a lock and key. Without Jack he would never have known real love his whole life. That would have been even sadder! 

[tpe]

I react here to lamuscia and ragtimecowboy.

I think Jack would always be special to Ennis, even if he did find another man to love in some hypothetical future.  After all, Jack represented his awakening -- his coming into the world of his true self, dimly perceived beforehand, but palpable from within nonetheless.  As with Alma, any other man or woman surely must represent a substitution of sorts.  And as ragtimecowboy had said, there would be an underlying dissatisfaction in all these surrogates -- a dissatisfaction that comes with the innate knowledge of having lost something and vainly trying to recapture an ideal.

It would have been the same sense of discontentment the Poet must have felt when he wrote:


He's lost him completely. And he now tries to find
his lips in the lips of each new lover,
he tries in the embrace of each new lover
to convince himself that it's the same young man,
that it's to him he gives himself...

He's lost him completely, as though he never existed.
Through fantasy, through hallucination,
he tries to find his lips in the lips of other young men,
he longs to feel his kind of love once more.


He might as well have been writing about Ennis after the Summer of 63.

[lamusica]

How true, Thomas.  Lovely poem!

[tpe]

How true, Thomas.  Lovely poem!

Thanks Lamusica.  The poem truly reminded me of Ennis.  There is a universality in his plight that lends itself to such poetry.

[welshwitch]

One of the reasons I think they were so close was exactly because they didn't just fall in love; they began by discovering that they had to work together, and then that they could work together, then becoming friends and discovering that they liked each other, before they became lovers. What binds people together is often less the passion which eventually subsides than later shared experience and mutual respect, which Ennis and Jack find first.

If Ennis had never met Jack, it's unlikley that he'd have encountered anyone else in quite the same circumstances so as to produce the same effect as the weeks on Brokeback did.

[lamusica]

We're of one mind on this, WW.  It's their full-functioning love that makes this story so tragic and poignant and yet so very real.  They KNEW one another on every level imaginable -- hid what they didn't want to face about one another--pur up with one another's foibles -- but loved one another anyhow.

[tpe]

One of the reasons I think they were so close was exactly because they didn't just fall in love; they began by discovering that they had to work together, and then that they could work together, then becoming friends and discovering that they liked each other, before they became lovers. What binds people together is often less the passion which eventually subsides than later shared experience and mutual respect, which Ennis and Jack find first.

If Ennis had never met Jack, it's unlikley that he'd have encountered anyone else in quite the same circumstances so as to produce the same effect as the weeks on Brokeback did.

Yes, I doubt that a married Ennis would have had a similar opportunity afforded to him -- something akin to the conjunction achieved during that summer of 63.  The place and the timing was perfect.  Perhaps there would never again be such an opportunity.

 

[aintfoolin]

 I woud respectfuuly diasgree if Ennis ever left Riverton. I feel this his location is part of the problem. Even back then, they could'nt have been the only two gay cowboys in the mid-west.

 But again, as I stated above it would have to be some one who could read Ennis . Jack was good at this and it's not easy for just anybody to do.  Maybe not under the exact same circumstances, but perhaps under similar conditions, ( another ranch worker etc.. Maybe, and that's a Big maybe, Ennis could have fell in love with another man. I don't totally dismiss it.

 Then again what Ennis has never known cannot hurt him. He'd have married Alma and lived a half life of  a ho-hum marriage  with children, or just remained the loner that he was.

[tpe]

I woud respectfuuly diasgree if Ennis ever left Riverton. I feel this his location is part of the problem. Even back then, they could'nt have been the only two gay cowboys in the mid-west.

 But again, as I stated above it would have to be some one who could read Ennis . Jack was good at this and it's not easy for just anybody to do.  Maybe not under the exact same circumstances, but perhaps under similar conditions, ( another ranch worker etc.. Maybe, and that's a Big maybe, Ennis could have fell in love with another man. I don't totally dismiss it.

 Then again what Ennis has never known cannot hurt him. He'd have married Alma and lived a half life of  a ho-hum marriage  with children, or just remained the loner that he was.

There is certainly truth to what you say here, although I think part of the problem is that Ennis would never have considered being any place else. 

To be sure, Ennis could have fallen in love with someone lese, although after his marriage, if might have been extremely unlikely.  Part of the reason that a married Ennis was more contrained physically to stay put in his owen small world, and hence opportunities to come his way would have been very difficult to come across.

[aintfoolin]

This is a difficult question.  Thanks goblondie.

A part of me would say that he would have gone through life subconsciously repressing his homosexual side.  He probably would have not been aware of it -- except for a misunderstood vein of unhappiness/dissatisfaction.

But I truly wonder if anybody with homosexual tendencies could really ever hide it from himself.  I speak here from experience.  I have strong clear memories of how I got to find out about my own feelings.  It is not something vague -- it hit me like a rock.  There was no denying it.

 

 Altough repressed as with in his case with Jack , woud'nt it be posslble for another man who is able to recognize these feelings in Ennis as Jack did and trigger something deep inside him?

 If Ennis has any homosexual tendencies at all , though repressed, would he find other men attractive opening up the possibility of another man in his life. Would'nt some action eventually give him away?  Or could someone like Ennis live  a life never showing this side of himself?

 Sexual orientation is a powerful thing thing, but this can tie in with the other thread ( Is Ennis Gay? ) It's complicated, but Jack got through, maybe someone else could do the same. Again, Ennis would probably never initiate it but I sill think that Jack's approach to Ennis and how Ennis responded to it may not be an isolated incident.
Even with Jack it was a slow process bringing these feelings in Ennis to the surface, but somehow Jack managed to do it But Jack was Jack. Just a thought.

[jackster]

Altough repressed as with in his case with Jack , woud'nt it be posslble for another man who is able to recognize these feelings in Ennis as Jack did and trigger something deep inside him? . . . . I sill think that Jack's approach to Ennis and how Ennis responded to it may not be an isolated incident.

I'd say it'd be really unusual aintfoolin'. I think there is the big problem of time and circumstance here.

Jack “got through” to Ennis when Ennis was young, alone, and a virgin; it was his first sexual experience (we’re lead to believe anyway). I think he was much more open to alternative sexual experiences at this age and time. If Ennis had not “experienced” Jack, had married Alma, had his 1st experience with her, and followed a relatively standard hetero life style,  – then I believe he would have been like literally millions of other men in that same cage. Possibly curious but totally unable or unwilling to express or peruse this interest for fear of upsetting the entire apple cart. Why risk turning your life (and your families) upside down for something that you’re not even sure you feel. It is a terrifically difficult thing to do unless you are absolutely sure about what you want. I don’t see that Ennis would have been able to achieve this certainty in Riverton WY in the 60s or 70s.

With the right man and right circumstance certainly this could happen – (heck I be willing to help him try ) – but it sure doesn’t seem at all likely given the place or time. Just look at what happened to poor Jack in ’83. Just MHO.

[welshwitch]

I think it was the very idsolation of their situation on the mountain and the fact that they appeared to be in a place out of space and time that had a big influence on Ennis. He didn't have to concern himself, as he did so often later, with other people, since there weren't any, other than Aguirre a couple of times, and Ennis wasn't around when he appeared. Much eaier to behave unconventionallywhen you're out of your normal routine and away from your normal contacts - it's a sort of holiday thing.