Topic: Jack - "You and Alma, that's a life?"

[ethan]

As I was editing the video for 40th Anniversary of Ennis and Jack's reunion, this particular line caught my attention.

Ennis: ..you got your wife and baby down in Taxas, I got my life in Riverton.
Jack: Is that so? You and Alma, that's a life?

Given Ennis who is a man of a few words, how much does Jack know about Ennis and Alma's life? How much do you think Ennis tell Jack about his life with Alma that prompted Jack to ask if Ennis and Alma have a life?

What was Jack implying? Did Jack just assume that Ennis's true love was him, not Alma?

[jackster]

Good question - I don’t think Ennis told him much, didn’t have to. IMO Jack’s view was based on what he saw in the two minutes he was there, - a small, sparsely appointed apartment over a Laundromat, and a beat up old pickup. All in the style of the apt. occupied by Ralph & Alice in the old Honeymooners TV series. Jack’s material world had “expanded” considerably since he married – as evidenced by his late model pickup. Since it didn’t appear that Ennis had achieved much else other than Alma (an’ the girls), and the boys had just had some pretty satisfying, ahem, physical relations (per the SS), Jack no doubt wondered if Alma alone was enough for Ennis. (Jack sure didn’t have the same devotion to his son as Ennis did his girls.) I think he felt Ennis was going nowhere and that He and Ennis could actually achieve something and have each other.

Interesting that all those years later Ennis turns it around - "It's 'cause of you I'm like this, I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere" 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I don't believe Ennis shared too many details of his life with Alma to Jack.  I also believe Jack saw what he saw and did his own math.  From Jack's perspective Ennis was merely existing and going through the motions of a life expected of him.  I do admire Ennis for not allowing Jack to label Alma as the sole reason they could not be together.

[ethan]

Good question - I don’t think Ennis told him much, didn’t have to.

Thanks, jackster for your insights. I also feel the same that Ennis didn't tell much. That is why I was pondering with the question asked by Jack.

IMO Jack’s view was based on what he saw in the two minutes he was there, - a small, sparsely appointed apartment over a Laundromat, and a beat up old pickup.

Perhaps I am reading too much. I am not sure if Jack's view is based on Ennis's materialistic[/b] world. To me, the term "life" would be a place where ones could live happily (of course, it is often accompanied by one's materialistic world) as Jack called something "sweet life." Jack probably sensed that Ennis and Alma are not happy together. I am not even sure if Jack was implying Ennis's marriage with Alma was just a cover-up.

Interesting that all those years later Ennis turns it around - "It's 'cause of you I'm like this, I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere" 

It is indeed interesting. Ennis told Jack - "Shut up about Alma, it ain't her fault." Jack proposed to him a sweet life which he rejected.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

It is indeed interesting. Ennis told Jack - "Shut up about Alma, it ain't her fault." Jack proposed to him a sweet life which he rejected.

It's a shame.  Apparently Ennis didn't believe that sweet life couldn't be achieved under their current circumstances.

[jackster]

To me, the term "life" would be a place where one could live happily (of course, it is often accompanied by one's materialistic world) as Jack called something "sweet life." . . . I am not even sure if Jack was implying Ennis's marriage with Alma was just a cover-up.

I think you right Ethan, this is what I was trying to say - the "Sweet Life" Jack wanted (and thought they could achieve together) was all three - materialistically, emotionally, and physically rewarding. That's what made it so damn sweet IMHO. And he didn't see a life with Alma measuring up to that dreamy possibility.

[ethan]

all three - materialistically, emotionally, and physically rewarding. That's what made it so damn sweet IMHO. And he didn't see a life with Alma measuring up to that dreamy possibility.

I think you termed it so well with the three components.  Jack could see the materialistic part of Ennis's life without Ennis telling. How did he know about Ennis's relationship with Alma for not being (well at least in Jack's judgment) satisfying?

Apparently, Ennis's view on "life" is different from Jack's as evidenced by his reply in defense of Alma. His view is to have "his life" while on fishing trips with Jack in the middle of nowhere.  :\'(

[aintfoolin]

 I think in the reunioin scene Jack stepped out of his truck, took one look around and decided that the Ennis he came to know and love would not settle for a cramped, small  apartment over a noisy laundry and surrounded by concrete could not be his country cowboy's idea of a life. This had to be Alma's idea. Ennis's home before this , way out in the country side with his horses and potenially a ranch of his own was more Ennis. It was she who talked him into leaving I think Jack realized this early. My feeling is that Jack saw Ennis in a stifling situation with Alma. It was a *life* yeah, but what kind of life? Where the quality of that life with her? Ennis, after the divorce ended up back out in the middle of nowhere again where he felt closer to his roots. Jack felt he could offer Ennis so much more something along the lines of a much sweeter life. The three aspects mentioned by Jackster above would make Ennis whole as a person again. This could only happen for him with Jack.
On BBM Jack, even  back then , had his own dreams of owning his own spread someday, perhaps this dream grew to include Ennis by the time they fell in love . He understood that ranch work and animals were Ennis's two real loves  ( other than his girls) and he was'nt anywhere near having a *satisfying* life in this aspect alone.
" You and Alma, that's a life?" ,I feel he means you , Ennis, the man who  came into himself with Jack on BBM, feels true  love for  Jack ,not Alma  a man who makes love to a woman, when he knows damn well he would prefer it be Jack. Can't possibly be happy in a marriage where he is not free to let his true self shine through without having to pretend all the time.  Where fantasy and pretense compensate for reality. To Jack, this no life, only an existence. He was ready to leave his own *existence* had Ennis said yes to his proposal. He understood the circumstances though  living on a much higher financial level, they reap the same results. In the end it was still only their love for each other that survived everything. Jack was right all along. Sadly Ennis found out too late. My opinion.

[tpe]

I don't believe Ennis shared too many details of his life with Alma to Jack.  I also believe Jack saw what he saw and did his own math.  From Jack's perspective Ennis was merely existing and going through the motions of a life expected of him.  I do admire Ennis for not allowing Jack to label Alma as the sole reason they could not be together.

I feel the same way.  It looked to me that he asessed the situation by simply knowing what he knew about Ennis. 

I also can't help thinking that Jack said these words out of bitterness.  We can't blame him too much, either.

[jackster]

. . . Jack stepped out of his truck, took one look around and decided that the Ennis he came to know and love would not settle for a cramped, small apartment over a noisy laundry and surrounded by concrete this could not be his country cowboy's idea of a life. This had to be Alma's idea. . . .

Great observation here ain't, you're so right - this world Jack saw was Alma's not Ennis's. That ain't no life for Ennis . . .  Makes that jumping off the cliff shot that follows much clearer as an expression of freedom.

[jackster]

How did he (Jack) know about Ennis's relationship with Alma not being satisfying?

Maybe because Jack's physical and emotional relationship with Lureen was unsatisfying he made the assumption the same was true for Ennis and Alma. 'Course in the SS Ennis is quoted as sayin'  "I like doin' it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin' like this." So Ennis got some satisfaction, but not like with Jack. Maybe Jack just put all these bits and pieces together in his mind to construct a view of Ennis's "sour life" and decided he could do better, a "sweet life" with Jack.

[ethan]

" You and Alma, that's a life?" ,I feel he means you , Ennis, the man who  came into himself with Jack on BBM, feels true  love for  Jack ,not Alma  a man who makes love to a woman, when he knows damn well he would prefer it be Jack. Can't possibly be happy in a marriage where he is not free to let his true self shine through without having to pretend all the time.  Where fantasy and pretense compensate for reality. To Jack, this no life, only an existence. He was ready to leave his own *existence* had Ennis said yes to his proposal. He understood the circumstances though  living on a much higher financial level, they reap the same results. In the end it was still only their love for each other that survived everything. Jack was right all along. Sadly Ennis found out too late. My opinion.

aintfoolin, well said. Thank you. It is the existence without a true meaning that Jack was questioning. As Jackster said, great observation.

Maybe because Jack's physical and emotional relationship with Lureen was unsatisfying he made the assumption the same was true for Ennis and Alma. 'Course in the SS Ennis is quoted as sayin'  "I like doin' it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin' like this." So Ennis got some satisfaction, but not like with Jack. Maybe Jack just put all these bits and pieces together in his mind to construct a view of Ennis's "sour life" and decided he could do better, a "sweet life" with Jack.

Another great observation from SS. Thanks!

[lamusica]

Good question - I don’t think Ennis told him much, didn’t have to. IMO Jack’s view was based on what he saw in the two minutes he was there, - a small, sparsely appointed apartment over a Laundromat, and a beat up old pickup. All in the style of the apt. occupied by Ralph & Alice in the old Honeymooners TV series. Jack’s material world had “expanded” considerably since he married – as evidenced by his late model pickup. Since it didn’t appear that Ennis had achieved much else other than Alma (an’ the girls), and the boys had just had some pretty satisfying, ahem, physical relations (per the SS), Jack no doubt wondered if Alma alone was enough for Ennis. Ennis did ([bs]Jack ure didn’t have the same devotion to his son as his girls.) I think he felt Ennis was going nowhere and th[/b]at He and Ennis could actually achieve something and have each other.

I agree with everything you say here, jackster, except the part about Jack not caring as much for his son as Ennis did for his daughters.  Maybe this topic is OT in this thread, but, here goes anyway.  I think Jack cared a good deal about Bobby.  He was the one who was concerned about his learning problem ( looking for coat scene in movie with Lureen) and in the SS when talking with Ennis.  He also had him on the combine and was teaching him to drive it.  He seemed to be having fun with Bobby and Bobby seemed to be enjoying himself, too.  I think, too, part of the reason Jack stayed with Lureen as long as he did was for Bobby's sake.  So, I don't think Jack was an "absent" father.  Ennis, while he talks about his girls and is faithful with his childsupport payments, doesn't go too far past the minimum when it comes to spending time with them.  In the ss, after he storms out of Alma's kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner, it states that he didn't see his girls for quite awhile.  He was willing to wait until they grew up and realized Alma was not 100% in the right where Ennis was concerned.  So, I don't think Ennis was all that "present" a father, either.  When the girls where little, maybe, but as they were growing? I'm not sure.  I think Jack made assumptions about Ennis's life with Alma, but maybe Ennis's reluctance to talk about his life caused Jack to assume Ennis was more dissatisfied than he actually was.  Then again, maybe Ennis, seeing that he was not as successful as Jack, had to pretend something was good in his life, so resented it when Jack made the comment that his life with Alma wasn't worth anything -- wasn't living.  Do we need a thread on this topic, or is it already covered somewhere?

[jackster]

The fathers, the kids and "A Life?"

You’re right lamusica maybe this should be it’s own thread.
Yeah, I go back and forth on this fatherly stuff, like a number of issues there’s somewhat contradictory stuff in the movie vs. SS. Sometimes I think your right, Jack’s every bit as good a father as Ennis, but then when I see Jack’s really quick jump to split from Lureen to the “sweet life” it makes me wonder maybe he’s not thinkin’ so much about little eight month old Bobby back in Texas. However, as you say later he is concerned about Bobby’s learning problem, apparently more than Lureen. Ennis shows up for T-Giving dinner with the girls (and Monroe – that can’t be much fun) yet he doesn’t see them for long time then? Hard for me to make heads or tails of the whole “fatherly” situation.

Long way of sayin’ you may be right. I guess for this “That’s A Life?” thread in particular I was thinking of right then, at the reunion campfire in '67, when all the kids were small, babies even. It seemed Jack’s eagerness to get out didn’t say much for his paternal instincts. But Ennis says (from the SS in '67) “Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls.”

It seemed a different perspective on their family obligation at that point in time. But I feel as you that maybe that changed over time and even reversed itself.

[lamusica]

You're right, jackster.  As of '67, Ennis seemed the best parent.  Lureen had her mother and father to help her with Bobby.  I doubt if Jack did any hands-on parenting.  Whereas, Ennis was the only one around to help Alma.  She mentions a sister in the grocery scene, but doesn't seem to be on the scene helping Alma out.  So, Ennis was sort of pushed into helping with diapers, colds, etc.  At that point, he certainly seems to be more involved with his kids.
Well, neither guy had any really good fatherly example, did he?  They just played it out as it came, seems to me.
I question, too, how good a mother Lureen was when she seems to be so distant when Jack mentions talking with Bobby's teachers.  She doesn't seem to aware of anything but the business.  Alma, on the other hand, is always with the kids except when at work..  Folks do what they have to do to make a living.  The question still remains, as Jack put it:  Did Ennis and Alma have a life?  (I think they did.  While not one I would want, it was at least as good as what most folks get.)

[tpe]

Was Jack's objection specifically directed at Alma, or was he more questioning Ennis's motives of trying to build a life with Alma?

Ennis seemed to have realized this when he insisted that it wasn't Alma's fault.  I guess the implication is that it was his (Ennis's) fault.

But was Jack really meant the remark against Alma?    I suspect that his remark questioned Ennis's sincerity and love for Alma than anything else.

 

[ethan]

Very good questions, tpe.

IMO, given how much Jack understands his relationship with Ennis, it is more a question on Ennis's motives. SS has more details on the motel scene, especially from Ennis. He said something:

"Four years, I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

It does appear that it is Ennis's fault.

[pierralex]

"Four years, I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

This is, IMO, the way Ennis uses to say to Jack that he loves him and would have liked that Jack stay close to him.

So when, later Jack asks "You and Alma it's a life", this is a kind of answer to Ennis, questionning about how much was Ennis able to move towards Jack, implying that Ennis was playing a part in his life with Alma, and being unhappy. Ennis' aswer is clear, he knows that he's playing a part with Alma (even if I think he likes her), and that he's not happy. But it is also clear that he won't make a step towards Jack...  :\'(

[tpe]

A lot in life can be sort of pretending, no?  I guess Ennis did seem to WANT to play the part with Alma -- a dutiful husband and a good father.  The fact that Ennis probably didn't love Alma (at least in the way he loved Jack) did not seem to matter to him.  And it would seem that Jack was questioning this, no?

[pierralex]

Both Ennis and Jack played parts with their wives.

Ennis was everything for Jack.

Jack wasn't evrything for Ennis, there were also his daughters and his fear of himself (and of the others).

So Jack was ready to give up everything in his life for Ennis, and by saying "You and Alma that's a life?" he was asking Ennis if he would do the same for him. And the asnwer was: No.

[tpe]

So we could say that Jack was an unwilling player, whereas Ennis thought that playing the part was necessary.

I guess what Jack was saying was: "Ennis, I am your life, not Alma and the kids.  You are my life, not Lureen and my child."   Although Ennis recognized that he couldn't live without Jack, he still (at that point) thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.

It must have been hard for Jack...

[jackster]

. .  Ennis . . .  thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.

It must have been hard for Jack...

Very Hard. I think you can see how crushed he is in his eyes when he looks at Ennis in this scene, right after Ennis says this ain't her fault. I think Jack is deeply hurt to realize (after the reunion and motel events) that Alma still has some hold on Ennis.

Well done Jake!

[tpe]

Very Hard. I think you can see how crushed he is in his eyes when he looks at Ennis in this scene, right after Ennis says its not her fault. I think Jack is deeply hurt to realize (after the reunion and motel events) that Alma still has some hold on Ennis.

Well done Jake!

And yet, he seemd to have taken it quietly, ending with just the resigned question: "For how long..."  This man: he was still willing to wait, even if could mean for an indefinite period into the future.

[Toadily]

Remember too Jack is the man ahead of his time. He knows what they could have together in a whole and complete way.  Ennis can't even entertain the idea of a life with Jack.  Jack can see what a partnership they would have. 

[ethan]

-- a dutiful husband and a good father. 

From Ennis's view, it is his life including seeing Jack once a while in the middle of nowhere.

So we could say that Jack was an unwilling player, whereas Ennis thought that playing the part was necessary.

I guess what Jack was saying was: "Ennis, I am your life, not Alma and the kids.  You are my life, not Lureen and my child."   Although Ennis recognized that he couldn't live without Jack, he still (at that point) thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.

tpe, you summed it up well. He question was crushed by Ennis's answer......and yes "for how long" that Ennis's term of life is going to last.

[lamusica]

So we could say that Jack was an unwilling player, whereas Ennis thought that playing the part was necessary.

I guess what Jack was saying was: "Ennis, I am your life, not Alma and the kids.  You are my life, not Lureen and my child."   Although Ennis recognized that he couldn't live without Jack, he still (at that point) thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.

It must have been hard for Jack...

Beautifully put, tpe!

[welshwitch]

I have to say that since Jack is the one with the  imagination, i think he ses the place and the way they live, when he's in a highly-wrought sate just after the reunion kiss, and compares that reality with his own vision of their future. I don;t think he can see how or why Ennis would prefer that to what he thinks they could have together - he sees Ennis as trapped in a limited ( materialistically and emotionally) life and wants so much more for them both. And Alma seems to him the obstacle, or if she doesn't at least she makes a convenient scapegoat - better to blame her than Ennis, since he loves Ennis and doesn't think much of Alma.

[tpe]

Remember too Jack is the man ahead of his time. He knows what they could have together in a whole and complete way.  Ennis can't even entertain the idea of a life with Jack.  Jack can see what a partnership they would have. 

The irony of it all is that Ennis probably recognized that his life with Alma wasn't really a life, but that he assumed that it was something that he had to live with.  Jack probably understood where Ennis was coming from, but refused to let go of the possibilities.

So I guess, risk-taking was what differentiated them. 

And thanks, Ethan and lamusica.

[welshwitch]

I have a sneaking suspicion that his marriage to alma, disregarding his involvement with Jack, would have been no more and no less that Ennis expected - I think his idea of marriage was a pretty limited one and one that was becoming increasingly dated even by the late 60s. However, Ennis is also so very evidently a product of a different mind-set or culture than our present one - he's not really an individualist or any sort of a rebel - to him getting married is a part of the continuum of a conventional life, as is wiorking, having children...He doesn't feel he has the right to be happy, the right when a relationship doesn't work to toss it aside and move on. to me Ennis has aspects of the archetypal american pioneer, silent, stoical, enduring.

Jack by contrast is so much more our contemporary - ready to try things and abandon them, ready to move from place to place, occupation to occupation, class to class, and always wanting something better for himself. It's exactly right that he would see Ennis's wife in a rather dismissinve, even contemptuous way, just as it's exactly right that Ennis never says anything critical about Lureen.

[tpe]

The problem with Ennis is that he is too much the stoic.  There is a conflict with the type of life he thinks he should be leading (the life with Alma) and the life he knows he should be living if he is to attain happiness for himself: the life with Jack.  But the pursuit of happiness didn't seem to matter to much to Ennis -- pain and suffering is too much ingrained in him to dare hope for happiness. 

Had he aspired to happiness more, perhaps he wouldn't have stood the life he had with Alma.  True, it wasn't her fault.