Topic: Jack - "You and Alma, that's a life?"

[Toadily]

I think also we need to remember to Ennis having a life with Jack is out of bounds of what is possible, you might as well say "lets build a house on the moon" to him.  So he does see his life with Alma as ok. He doesn't have expectations of anything but yeah being repressed and sad.

[ethan]

So he does see his life with Alma as ok. He doesn't have expectations of anything but yeah being repressed and sad.

Good observation too. Thanks. "Two guys living together....no way" is Ennis's view of life. It is also his fear that hinders his pursuit of happiness.

[manhattangirl]

I remember the motel scene when Jack asked him about his life the four years they were separated.  Ennis answer was "I don't know".   I really think he didn't know what was going on with him in those four years.  But when he was with Jack again whether it was a curse or a blessing he saw so clearly what made him feel again.   That thing/his love was released in him.  You can see it when he grabbed for Jack, you could see it when after making love to him again, he was softer, gentlier in his speech, and demeanor, he was loving.   

Then Jack asked him that fatal question:  "What do we do now?"  Ennis  understood then, like a dark cloud that came over them,  there was not much they could do.

Jack had his part of life that he didn't want to give up and needed.  But Alma was the only way he could live his life.     

[tpe]

The main problem I think is that Ennis knew after Jack reappeared that he could not be faithful to Alma.  In that sense, he must have known somehow that this was incompatible with having a life with her.

Well, Ennis (and Jack, to some extent) are quite peculiar in this regard -- perhaps thinking that faithfulness to their wives constituted not having affairs with other WOMEN.  The same holds true the other way: faithfulness to each other constitues not having affairs with other MEN.  It was a compartmentalization that Ennis assumed Alma would learn to live with.  This was wishful thinking, of course.

So as much as he may think that a life with Jack would be impossible in that society, so too his compartmentalization.  He could either give up Jack or give up Alma, and assuming the former to be impossible, he would have to repudiate Jack entirely.  He didn't.   That wasn't a life -- for Jack AND Alma.



 

[manhattangirl]

The main problem I think is that Ennis knew after Jack reappeared that he could not be faithful to Alma.  In that sense, he must have known somehow that this was incompatible with having a life with her.

Well, Ennis (and Jack, to some extent) are quite peculiar in this regard -- perhaps thinking that faithfulness to their wives constituted not having affairs with other WOMEN.  The same holds true the other way: faithfulness to each other constitues not having affairs with other MEN.  It was a compartmentalization that Ennis assumed Alma would learn to live with.  This was wishful thinking, of course.

So as much as he may think that a life with Jack would be impossible in that society, so too his compartmentalization.  He could either give up Jack or give up Alma, and assuming the former to be impossible, he would have to repudiate Jack entirely.  He didn't.   That wasn't a life -- for Jack AND Alma.

There may be truth in what you're saying.   Jack did not follow that thinking.   Ennis did.   He neither thought of another woman until Cassie after the divorce, and never thought of another man during his relationship with Jack.  But, didn't he think that he was betraying either Jack or Alma?, (talk about compartmentalization).   Ennis lived his life so precariously that the slightest whisper of truth could bring it crashing down, (which it did  happen eventually), Ennis held on to convention hoping that in it self would be good enough to hold to want he wanted, (Jack), and what he needed in order to survive, (Alma).   



 

[tpe]

There may be truth in what you're saying.   Jack did not follow that thinking.   Ennis did.   He neither thought of another woman until Cassie after the divorce, and never thought of another man during his relationship with Jack.  But, didn't he think that he was betraying either Jack or Alma?, (talk about compartmentalization).   Ennis lived his life so precariously that the slightest whisper of truth could bring it crashing down, (which it did  happen eventually), Ennis held on to convention hoping that in it self would be good enough to hold to want he wanted, (Jack), and what he needed in order to survive, (Alma).   

Yes, I do believe that is at the heart of Ennis's thinking.  That he could hold on to a life of normalcy with Alma so long as his relationship with Jack was to be secret.  But it didn't turn out to be a well-kept secret.  He was quite careless, and he himself had an inkling that it wasn't well kept (witness his paranoia in the later scene about other people knowing).

I think even if Alma had not seen them kiss, she would have found out later, due to Ennis's carelessness.  It tells me that he was not particularly concerned of really hiding the truth from Alma.  I guess he assumed that wanting a life of normalcy would be sufficient to keep Alma quiet.  It did for a while, but it was foolish of him to think that she could bear it forever.

[welshwitch]

It's a bit like "I can believe two impossible things before breakfast" - but I think Ennis really sees the two thiongs as entirely different. In a way Alma is real life while Jack is the dream.

But what a limited real life it is - and when Alma suggests going out he has some objection - makes sense that he doesn't want to go out with her and Jack (!) and to me it also makes sense that he doesn't want to go to the church thing but it gives the impression that for Ennis life with Alma is just work, eat, children, sleep, repetitive dull routine, whereas for the short periods he's with Jack it's all exciting, full of feeling,like a holiday, as one wants life to be but knows it can't be.

He never seems to think that Alma may find her life tedious or unrewarding, lacking in material comfort, lacking in emotional warmth, lacking in social contact - when you think about it, Jack is right in a way when he says "That's a life?"

[tpe]

He never seems to think that Alma may find her life tedious or unrewarding, lacking in material comfort, lacking in emotional warmth, lacking in social contact - when you think about it, Jack is right in a way when he says "That's a life?"

That's because he's used to it.  And when Jack questioned his and Alma's life together, it was as if Jack was questioning the life he is used to live.  Again, he couldn't see beyond what he is used to.  He expected it of himself, and he expected the same from Jack and Alma...

[manhattangirl]

Again, he couldn't see beyond what he is used to.  He expected it of himself, and he expected the same from Jack and Alma...

Ah, it seems that word control is rearing its ugly head.

[lamusica]

When you look around you, you see lots of relationships that just hold on because neither party wants to go through the hassle of dissolving the partnership.  There's no open hostility between the two, just taking each other for granted or just ignoring one another.  The relationship just sort of withers with time, and both people feel caught, but not desparate enough to get out.  I think that's what Alma and Ennis had -- Jack and Lureen, too.  Jack, though, was willing to go through the hell of a break-up if there was something at the other end he really wanted (a life with Ennis -- maybe even Randall), but Ennis could see nothing but failure in divorce or separation.  Thus, in his mind, he and Alma had a life.

[aintfoolin]

Indeed, your right about relationships where people for one reason or another drift apart without really ever saying goodbye. Maybe it's the finality, of the matter people  can't face, that they've failed at the most important issue in life.
 Both Alma and Ennis had some one *waiting in the wings* Monroe and Jack. perhaps contributing to the prolonged divorce. I don't know what finally convinced Alma to dump Ennis, but I don't think reality set in for Ennis until he stood before the divorce court. Had to face that his *life* with Alma was a pretense, yet he felt he'd failed at some point in this traditional marriage. Sadly he could'nt commit fully to either Jack nor Alma in the end. Not a good place to be for all concerned.  My 2 cents.

[tpe]

Ah, it seems that word control is rearing its ugly head.

Ennis could be very controlling.  However, he didn't seem to carry through most of the time: he never said anything about Jack's Mexico trips until the last confrontation.  He let Alma go away when she had to work the extra shift at the grocery.  So it would seem that although he had very set ideas on what a life he, Alma, and Jack should be leading, he nonetheless never seemed to have gone beyond initial objections or threats.

[tpe]

When you look around you, you see lots of relationships that just hold on because neither party wants to go through the hassle of dissolving the partnership.  There's no open hostility between the two, just taking each other for granted or just ignoring one another.  The relationship just sort of withers with time, and both people feel caught, but not desparate enough to get out.  I think that's what Alma and Ennis had -- Jack and Lureen, too.  Jack, though, was willing to go through the hell of a break-up if there was something at the other end he really wanted (a life with Ennis -- maybe even Randall), but Ennis could see nothing but failure in divorce or separation.  Thus, in his mind, he and Alma had a life.

Indeed, your right about relationships where people for one reason or another drift apart without really ever saying goodbye. Maybe it's the finality, of the matter people  can't face, that they've failed at the most important issue in life.
 Both Alma and Ennis had some one *waiting in the wings* Monroe and Jack. perhaps contributing to the prolonged divorce. I don't know what finally convinced Alma to dump Ennis, but I don't think reality set in for Ennis until he stood before the divorce court. Had to face that his *life* with Alma was a pretense, yet he felt he'd failed at some point in this traditional marriage. Sadly he could'nt commit fully to either Jack nor Alma in the end. Not a good place to be for all concerned.  My 2 cents.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who said: habit is stronger than hate.

Many times, (as Thoreau had said), people live lives of quiet desperation. And this is probably close to describing what Ennis envisioned as a life with Alma.  It was a life that would make do -- and not reach out to the stars, like something that Jack would have wanted.  It became a matter of something of comfort: as a habit is wont to do even when the original reason behind it has long been forgotten. 

Ennis wanted an anchor, and a faily life with Alma and the childern offered this.  Happiness was really secondary.

[welshwitch]

It's also true that if you are in love with someone and want to live with them, you can't see why they don't want the same, and can't believe they'd settle for the dull domestic life they currently lead when they could trade it for an exciting one with you. It never occurs to you at the time that any life, however exciting and romantic, will eventually become routine, though if you're lucky in a less empty fashion than that of Ennis's marriage.

In fact I think the problem with that marriage is that there was never much, if any, passion to begin with, and it's pretty routine from the beginning.

[tpe]

It's also true that if you are in love with someone and want to live with them, you can't see why they don't want the same, and can't believe they'd settle for the dull domestic life they currently lead when they could trade it for an exciting one with you. It never occurs to you at the time that any life, however exciting and romantic, will eventually become routine, though if you're lucky in a less empty fashion than that of Ennis's marriage.

In fact I think the problem with that marriage is that there was never much, if any, passion to begin with, and it's pretty routine from the beginning.

The notion of romantic love as being the norm is fairly modern.  Marriage had always been a social tool first and foremost throughout history -- as a way of fostering alliances.  Love had very little to do with it initially.

Hence, Ennis's life with Alma can be viewed in this way: as something he needed in order to become more socially acceptable.  His relationship with Jack can be viewed more in terms of romantic love.

[manhattangirl]

But don't we have to remember that in a marriage depends on what you put into it.  Let's face it Ennis really didn't put much into it.  He worked provided for them, or try to.  But that was it.  Look back at the scene where Alma wanted to go to the church social, if Ennis was interested in keeping his marriage intact, he would have know that this something Alma wanted, to make her happy he would have taken her, but he didn't he watch TV and worked on his next beer, MARRIAGE KILLER, rule #1 make the wife happy. 

The social tool theory is all well and good, but to keep that tool working takes maintenance and care, and Ennis did not do this.  Regardless what Alma knew or didn't understand regarding what she saw at the reunion, Ennis participation in this marriage was nonexistent. 

IMO Alma would have stayed with Ennis if he only showed some interest in her well being as his wife, and his woman.  Ennis didn't have a clue on making a woman content. 

[tpe]

But don't we have to remember that in a marriage depends on what you put into it.  Let's face it Ennis really didn't put much into it.  He worked provided for them, or try to.  But that was it.  Look back at the scene where Alma wanted to go to the church social, if Ennis was interested in keeping his marriage intact, he would have know that this something Alma wanted, to make her happy he would have taken her, but he didn't he watch TV and worked on his next beer, MARRIAGE KILLER, rule #1 make the wife happy. 

The social tool theory is all well and good, but to keep that tool working takes maintenance and care, and Ennis did not do this.  Regardless what Alma knew or didn't understand regarding what she saw at the reunion, Ennis participation in this marriage was nonexistent. 

IMO Alma would have stayed with Ennis if he only showed some interest in her well being as his wife, and his woman.  Ennis didn't have a clue on making a woman content. 

Alas, in many cases, the fact that a marriage provided some degree of social acceptability was enough incentive for disinterested/unloving couples to stay married.

I recently had a discussion with someone who was in a marriage for about 10 years before they settled amicably for a divorce.  The lady knew from the very start that he was gay, but agreed to the marriage for certain reasons.  He, of course, was expected by his family to marry, so this was quite a convenient  arrangement.  From what I was told, they pretty much lived separate lives throughout those 10 years.  Surprisingly, they got used to the arrangement, and the divorce was caused by some other reason.

So I guess Ennis and Alma need not have put anything into it for a marriage to seemingly work.  It depends on one's specific interests: social acceptability is not the least.

The problem, of course, was that Alma expected more out of the marriage -- and not just social acceptability.  She wanted love, and I guess Ennis really didn't bargain for this on a deeper level.

[aintfoolin]

But don't we have to remember that in a marriage depends on what you put into it.  Let's face it Ennis really didn't put much into it.  He worked provided for them, or try to.  But that was it.  Look back at the scene where Alma wanted to go to the church social, if Ennis was interested in keeping his marriage intact, he would have know that this something Alma wanted, to make her happy he would have taken her, but he didn't he watch TV and worked on his next beer, MARRIAGE KILLER, rule #1 make the wife happy. 

The social tool theory is all well and good, but to keep that tool working takes maintenance and care, and Ennis did not do this.  Regardless what Alma knew or didn't understand regarding what she saw at the reunion, Ennis participation in this marriage was nonexistent. 

IMO Alma would have stayed with Ennis if he only showed some interest in her well being as his wife, and his woman.  Ennis didn't have a clue on making a woman content. 

I think the whole question of Ennis's non-participation in the marriage, goes back to the reason he married Alma in the first place. He simply went through the motions , never  really putting his heart and soul into the marriage because his heart was'nt in it after his experiences on BBM with Jack.
 He only married her in the first place to try to prove to himself that he was'nt gay. This basis  of questioning and denial clouded everything from then on. Alma was not his priority really. Moving on from BB proved  much harder than he anticipated that day he let Jack drive off. The very thought of loosing Jack made this tough cowboy plysically ill. So  much for a solid, happy foundation for a happy marriage with her.
I liken it to that old game show Let's make A Deal , where a contestant is givin  a great sure thing to hold and feel in their hands, then is offered a chance to trade that sure thing for an unknown prize behind door No. 3!  It could be a better prize than what he has or it could be a dud. It's all a game of chance.  Jack was a sure thing and he knew it, but traded it /took a chance  for a *life* with Alma in which he soon found out that it all never compared to what he had with Jack. Marriage is something that two people have to want in order to be willing to make it work and allow the love to grow. How could he make Alma happy, when he was not even happy with himself?  and in denial of his true self?  Ennis may very well  have gone through all this on a not so concious level, treating Alma shabbily as he did, but at the core was his desire to be with the one he truly loved and felt an phyisical and emotional bond with from the start and that was Jack Twist.
Once he got Jack back in his arms again during the reunion scene, and his " no reins on this one" comment tells me that Ennis had once again , after four long years ,found his true calling and his true love and I don't think he intended to ever let it go again.  In my opinion he only found real contentment when he was with Jack, where his true self could shine through.  Don't think this was ever really true with Alma.  My thoughts.

[ethan]

During four years of Jack's absence, we don't know much about what went on between Ennis and Alma in their marriage. I think as soon as Ennis said "this is a one-shot thing," he was determined to go on with his life. I don't think Ennis could really see Jack was the one he loved after spending the summer with Jack up in the mountain. Alma was his priority but of course it diminished over the years. Somehow I feel that Ennis would be capable of carrying the marriage through had he not heard from Jack four years later. Don't forget that at Alma's wish, Ennis did move to town in an apartment.

[welshwitch]

I agree, Ethan; if Jack hadn't contacted Ennis, Ennis wouldn't have tried to find him. He'd have soldiered on with Alma, probably getting less and less from his marriage except for some pleasure from the two girls, but he'd have gone by his mantra "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it," and he'd have put up with his life as it was.

It looks a very narrow and limited life to us, but I guess it reflects what many marriages were ( and are) like, specially among those in remote areas, in manual work, with limited possibilities and mobility.

[ragtimecowboy]

I think you right Ethan, this is what I was trying to say - the "Sweet Life" Jack wanted (and thought they could achieve together) was all three - materialistically, emotionally, and physically rewarding. That's what made it so damn sweet IMHO. And he didn't see a life with Alma measuring up to that dreamy possibility.

           It was a dreamy possibility that could have been made real had Ennis just taken the leap of faith and faced his fear. Materialistically the two together would have been far better off, emotionally there is nothing better than sharing your everyday life with all its ups and downs than with the one you love, and physically, wow, all that good lovin!!!

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

That's one of the sad parts about the story.  Ennis probably loved Alma...just not passionately. He loved Jack passionately, but was not willing to take that next step with Jack.  It still breaks my heart to think of what was lost here. :\'(

[manhattangirl]

During four years of Jack's absence, we don't know much about what went on between Ennis and Alma in their marriage. I think as soon as Ennis said "this is a one-shot thing," he was determined to go on with his life. I don't think Ennis could really see Jack was the one he loved after spending the summer with Jack up in the mountain. Alma was his priority but of course it diminished over the years. Somehow I feel that Ennis would be capable of carrying the marriage through had he not heard from Jack four years later. Don't forget that at Alma's wish, Ennis did move to town in an apartment.

I don't know, his reaction when he saw Jack again was too intense, that reaction came from somewhere deep within him.   When Alma told of the postcard, the waitng patiently by the window.   This was more than waiting for a friend to show up, this was waiting for your life to show up again. 

He was given a second chance at something he lost, or let get away from him.   "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" Jack said to him at the end.  Ennis felt that way those few hours he waited for Jack.  IMO.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I don't know, his reaction when he saw Jack again was too intense, that reaction came from somewhere deep within him.   When Alma told of the postcard, the waitng patiently by the window.   This was more than waiting for a friend to show up, this was waiting for your life to show up again. 

You said it girl!!

[tpe]

I react to Ethan's and WW's latest post.

I think Ennis was determined to make the marriage with Alma work -- build a life with her and try to bring up a family in a way that he himself never experienced.  But I also think that he probably couldn't forget Jack and probably loved him still with a helplessness of a person who wishes to forget but cannot forget.  The one telling sign is his preference for anal intercourse with Alma.  It seems to indicate that his experiece in BBM became subliminated within his married life -- in whatever he could do to incorporate some of that experience with his life with Alma...  Alma substituting for Jack, in his mind's eye.

So when Jack asked the question during the reunion night up in the mountains, I think Ennis knew exactly what jack was referring to.  Was this really the life he wanted to lead?  The fatc that Ennis didn't answer the question directly (yes or no) is very telling.

[aintfoolin]

I don't know, his reaction when he saw Jack again was too intense, that reaction came from somewhere deep within him.   When Alma told of the postcard, the waitng patiently by the window.   This was more than waiting for a friend to show up, this was waiting for your life to show up again. 

He was given a second chance at something he lost, or let get away from him.   "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" Jack said to him at the end.  Ennis felt that way those few hours he waited for Jack.  IMO.

This says it all MG. Ennis stated that it took him about a year to realize that he should'nt have let Jack out of his sight. These are not the words of a man who is satisfied with the status quo of his marriage.

 From the moment he received the postcard from Jack, he was walking on air. He now had a real purpose to be happy again. As MG said this was more than just a friend, or a mere forgotten aquaintence from the past. This was some one he shared intimate moments with four years before. He fell in love with Jack before he married Alma, somewhat diminishing Alma's status as the preferred one in his life. Yet he tried to make a go of it.

 Ennis could have chosen not to answer the postcard at all if he really wanted to not have Jack back in his life givin their history, and try to make a serious go at his marriage to Alma, but did this happen? No, quite the opposite. He wrote back a simple " You bet" , in other words * I'd be more than delighted to see you again" . Ennis dressed in a new shirt, took off from work and waited all day with  determination by the window to see Jack again.

When he finally had Jack back safely in his arms..well my jaw dropped at the emotion in this scene from Ennis.  Could'nt wait to show Jack exactly what his intentions were by kissing him, practically in the street. Something way out of the ordinary for  Ennis to do. The happiness on his face that he had Jack back in his arms again.. well all I can say is not many of us get second chances to right a wrong but that kiss he laid on Jack was the most devastatingly honest thing  that beats all  I've ever seen.  So intense.
 It's as if Ennis can't believe hs luck. Jack was life to Ennis , not Alma and he had returned to complete him once again. My thoughts.

[welshwitch]

I imagine that Ennis, being Ennis, went on with the plans that had been settled before he spent the summer on Brokeback and married Alma, only to realise as time passed that first year, that there was something missing from his life and that the something was Jack. Being Ennis, he does nothing about it, but that he wants to can be deduced from his rapturous reaction to Jacks's card and subsequent appearance.

[aintfoolin]

And then in the motel room, Ennis's somber " I'm STUCK with what I have now" Not the words of a happily married man. No doubt he feels trapped and * stuck* in the life he has with Alma. Tells Jack to " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault" He was right, but who is at fault? Anybody? who was it that jumped into this marriage without fully thinking it through after Brokeback?  One guess.

[welshwitch]

Of course, the comment "That's a life?" is a mistake on Jack's part - it's so tempting, if you love someone and see a third party as an obstacle to your being together, to denigrate the third party or the conditions they cause your object to live in. So you voice your feeling, which comes over as criticism, contempt, superiority, dismissiveness and the other person's back goes up so that they feel forced into defending the third person even if they have a niggling feeling that they rae in fact not as content with the status quo as they make out.

In a sense "This ain't her fault" entrenches Ennis in his position that he's with Alma and has to stay there. It's also  the soert of reaction convention would expect from a husband whose wife is criticized, and ennis is nothing if not conventional, or at least wants to be thought so.

[tpe]

And then in the motel room, Ennis's somber " I'm STUCK with what I have now" Not the words of a happily married man. No doubt he feels trapped and * stuck* in the life he has with Alma. Tells Jack to " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault" He was right, but who is at fault? Anybody? who was it that jumped into this marriage without fully thinking it through after Brokeback?  One guess.

I did feel the same -- that Ennis felt trapped by circumstances of his own making.  He probably realized it then.  I guess when he said " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault", he was saying in a way that it was indeed HIS OWN fault.  So in a sense, the statement was not a rebuke against Jack but a rebuke against himself.