Topic: Jack - "You and Alma, that's a life?"

[aintfoolin]

I did feel the same -- that Ennis felt trapped by circumstances of his own making.  He probably realized it then.  I guess when he said " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault", he was saying in a way that it was indeed HIS OWN fault.  So in a sense, the statement was not a rebuke against Jack but a rebuke against himself.

Certainly, It does appear that Ennis was saying to Jack " I screwed this up, not Alma" so don't blame her. Feelings of guilt and regret coming into play here imo. But to me they both screwed things up when they married for the wrong reasons. Jack had his messed up circumstances , (by the way he was willing to leave at the drop of a hat for Ennis) in Texas and Ennis had his messed up circumstances there in Riverton.

 Both were admitting that their "lives"/marriages were mistakes.Jack was willing to fix his, and Ennis was a major factor in his plans ,but Ennis was only willing to stand it further. . MO.

[ethan]

Of course, the comment "That's a life?" is a mistake on Jack's part - it's so tempting, if you love someone and see a third party as an obstacle to your being together, to denigrate the third party or the conditions they cause your object to live in. So you voice your feeling, which comes over as criticism, contempt, superiority, dismissiveness and the other person's back goes up so that they feel forced into defending the third person even if they have a niggling feeling that they rae in fact not as content with the status quo as they make out.

In a sense "This ain't her fault" entrenches Ennis in his position that he's with Alma and has to stay there. It's also  the soert of reaction convention would expect from a husband whose wife is criticized, and ennis is nothing if not conventional, or at least wants to be thought so.

Very interesting observation. I am not sure if it is a mistake on Jack's part. Jack can read Ennis and he senses that Ennis is not happy with his marriage. It just occurred to me that most of time Jack is the one asking questions. He takes vast interests in understanding Ennis's position in the relationship.

I guess Jack was not surprised at Ennis's answer as WW has pointed out Ennis's defense for the criticism. It turns out...Ennis made statements all the time.

[tpe]

Certainly, It does appear that Ennis was saying to Jack " I screwed this up, not Alma" so don't blame her. Feelings of guilt and regret coming into play here imo. But to me they both screwed things up when they married for the wrong reasons. Jack had his messed up circumstances , (by the way he was willing to leave at the drop of a hat for Ennis) in Texas and Ennis had his messed up circumstances there in Riverton.

 Both were admitting that their "lives"/marriages were mistakes.Jack was willing to fix his, and Ennis was a major factor in his plans ,but Ennis was only willing to stand it further. . MO.

Yes, I think both of them realized that their marrying for the wrong reasons was at the heart of the current difficulties -- and they themselves were to balme, given waht they knew about themselves and the way they felt AFTER the summer of 63. Jack I think pretty much admitted the same in the motel scene when he asked "waht are we gonna do now?"  It was part rhetorical, part desperation.  He knew that there was no simple answer to this -- at least, there was no answer specific to his liking.  He wanted a shared life, and he knew that there would be no such shared life while Ennis had a life with Alma, and he with Lureen.

[tpe]

Very interesting observation. I am not sure if it is a mistake on Jack's part. Jack can read Ennis and he senses that Ennis is not happy with his marriage. It just occurred to me that most of time Jack is the one asking questions. He takes vast interests in understanding Ennis's position in the relationship.

I guess Jack was not surprised at Ennis's answer as WW has pointed out Ennis's defense for the criticism. It turns out...Ennis made statements all the time.

It seems to me that Ennis asked very little questions because he pretty much feared the answers.   There is something comforting about making statements that one does not have to ask questions about beforehand, no?

Stating something as if it were a fact seems to drive uncertainty away.  Such was the case with Ennis in this scene, IMO.

 

[welshwitch]

True, Thomas. It's always dangerous to ask questions if you think the answer may be something you don't want to hear and might have to act on. If ennis had asked Jack what he should do about his marriage, the answer would have involved his abandoning alma and committing to Jack, which he didn't want to do. That's why he ridicules Jack's suggestion that he should move away from Riverton - he's too afraid of the implications.

[ethan]

yes, in a way when Jack asked the question, he was already making an assumption that Ennis didn't have a life with Alma. Jack was probably hoping that Ennis would agree with him.

[tpe]

Thanks WW and Ethan. 

Honestly, if I were Jack, I would have probably made the same assumption.  And I don't think Ennis would have denied that he loved Jack more than Alma.  Their love for each other seemed beyond doubt.  But how to go from there seemed to have been the stumbling block.  Jack probed, and Ennis evaded.  Not a very good sign.  It never is a very good sign.

 

[manhattangirl]

If you looked at the divorce scene again, you will see tears in Ennis's eyes.  Why do you think this was?  I watch that scene over and over, what in the world did this man want?  Ennis seem so oblivious to the reality of his love for Jack, like if no one knew, it would be OK.  If Alma never saw the kiss,  Ennis slow withdrawl of emotion away from her still would be felt by her.   

Ennis did possess an abundance of conflicting emotions, and no knowledge of how to deal with them. 

[myprivatejack]

I think Ennis at the point of their divorce was not oblivious to his love for Jack, on the contrary;perhaps he felt that this was then more living,more real than ever,because the wall who separated each other had dissapeared.And perhaps this situation overwhelmed him,because the destruction of the easy cover-up of his marriage forced in same way to affront his own reality:his feelings to another man and the answer he knew sooner or later he must give to this complex situation.Letting aside the fact that he loved Alma in other lebel than Jack,and more still his daughters;so these circumstances are never easy and feelings usually overcome people.

[tpe]

If you looked at the divorce scene again, you will see tears in Ennis's eyes.  Why do you think this was?  I watch that scene over and over, what in the world did this man want?  Ennis seem so oblivious to the reality of his love for Jack, like if no one knew, it would be OK.  If Alma never saw the kiss,  Ennis slow withdrawl of emotion away from her still would be felt by her.   

Ennis did possess an abundance of conflicting emotions, and no knowledge of how to deal with them. 

I think it's partly because Ennis did love Alma in a way.  That love was different from the love he had for Jack.  For example, there was true tenderness when Ennis kissed her goodbye right before joing Jack for the reunion trip up the mountains.  Although that kiss was a kiss of betrayal, it was also a kiss of affection -- and a kiss for understanding.  And even though Ennis truly loved Jack, Alma stood for the life that Ennis yearned -- a life of normalcy, with a family, in tune with the society around them.  So I guess for Ennis, Alma also stood for many lost ideals, and in a way, he loved her for it.

[manhattangirl]

I think it's partly because Ennis did love Alma in a way.  That love was different from the love he had for Jack.  For example, there was true tenderness when Ennis kissed her goodbye right before joing Jack for the reunion trip up the mountains.  Although that kiss was a kiss of betrayal, it was also a kiss of affection -- and a kiss for understanding.  And even though Ennis truly loved Jack, Alma stood for the life that Ennis yearned -- a life of normalcy, with a family, in tune with the society around them.  So I guess for Ennis, Alma also stood for many lost ideals, and in a way, he loved her for it.

Oh yeah, I watch that scene too, he looks at her, kisses her good bye.  A kiss of betrayal, yes,  but a vision of life, let's face it didn't really exist, but only in Ennis's mind, but is this the life he yearned for or a life he needed as protection?  There is a big difference.   Ennis had to decide who and what he was and no way ready to even face that question, so he care for Alma, but needed Alma to keep his secert self from ever coming out.   When Ennis lost that, he was face with himself, and wasn't ready to deal with it, kept Jack at a distance, but still not letting him go.  Ennis was really only fooling himself.  IMO.   

[tpe]

Oh yeah, I watch that scene too, he looks at her, kisses her good bye.  A kiss of betrayal, yes,  but a vision of life, let's face it didn't really exist, but only in Ennis's mind, but is this the life he yearned for or a life he needed as protection?  There is a big difference.   Ennis had to decide who and what he was and no way ready to even face that question, so he care for Alma, but needed Alma to keep his secert self from ever coming out.   When Ennis lost that, he was face with himself, and wasn't ready to deal with it, kept Jack at a distance, but still not letting him go.  Ennis was really only fooling himself.  IMO.   

Yes, in many many ways, Ennis was never really that realistic.  We are wont to say that it was Jack who was the dreamer, but Ennis was also enwrapped in a serious form of unreality -- that his marriage with Alma was the life that he really wanted.  He did succeed in fooling himself for so long -- partly because he half-wished for such a life and supposed that he can have his cake and eat it too.  In the end, pretending not to know any better not only hurt himself -- it hurt everyone around him: most of all, the people who loved him.

[myprivatejack]

Yes,I also think that Ennis lived in a kind of dream,or perhaps nightmare,thinking that being "well seen" for the society he lived in was all what he wanted and needed.But I also think,as I said in my post above,that seeing this dream destroyed by the divorce made him feel almost terror because then,since he was already free, he must face to the other kind of life that Jack represented.And of course,he loved Alma in such a different way than his lover, and the situation was not easy for him,no matter what kind of feelings he had for his ex wife.

[tpe]

I do think he certainly lived a life of unease after his divorce with Alma.  But a life of unease was preferable to him than to live openly with Jack.  So much did he fool himself about what kind of life he wanted.  Even after Alma divorced him, he still made his responsibilities to his children a pretext from saying no to Jack's dream.

[welshwitch]

It's entirely possible to live a not-quite -satisfactory life with one person most of the time, as Ennis does with Alma, and keep a second life as a sort of dream. Then when one takes up the second life for a brief period, that becomes reality, except at the back of one's mind is the tiny clock counting down and saying "This too must pass" as it inevitably does. It's possible to be angry when the other person intrudes and upsets the balance of the two worlds by demanding a commitment that would mean the abandonment of one world - that's what Ennis can't do and I think had Jack lived would never have done. Deep down he knows that what he has with Alma lacks depth, but the alternatives are what Jack wants, which terrifies him, or what he eventually ends up with. Had Alma not divorced him, I'd expect him to stay with her.

[tpe]

It's entirely possible to live a not-quite -satisfactory life with one person most of the time, as Ennis does with Alma, and keep a second life as a sort of dream. Then when one takes up the second life for a brief period, that becomes reality, except at the back of one's mind is the tiny clock counting down and saying "This too must pass" as it inevitably does. It's possible to be angry when the other person intrudes and upsets the balance of the two worlds by demanding a commitment that would mean the abandonment of one world - that's what Ennis can't do and I think had Jack lived would never have done. Deep down he knows that what he has with Alma lacks depth, but the alternatives are what Jack wants, which terrifies him, or what he eventually ends up with. Had Alma not divorced him, I'd expect him to stay with her.

A "life" with Alma was the easier of the two options.  Well, I guess this is not how Ennis envisions this: for Ennis, there was only ONE option.  For him, a life with Jack was an impossibility.

[aintfoolin]

I see this as no different than any other situation where for reasons the married man decides to cheat on his wife. In this case, Jack plays the role of the "other woman" . Falls in love with with Ennis who is commited to someone else. He wants what is already taken. As in alot of cases, the married man ( Ennis ) will not leave the wife for the "other" lover. For awhile he is having his cake, and eating it too imo. It is more than about sex though with Jack. There is a real emotional bond here clearly seen from Jack's point of view. He wants Ennis to leave his wife for him and he was willing to do the same. Only difference being the homosexual elements to the story. I feel that this is part of the attraction to this story for many straight women. They have lived Jack's experience. Statistics have shown that  usally under "traditional "circumstances, this scenario of the man  actually leaving his wife and kids for the "other lover"  in most instances ,is few and far between so the odds were against Jack from the start, but this was far from the traditonal setup.  The excuse is usally " I have reponsibilities to my family". Or" I can't actually leave my wife and kids" for you, but I really like you alot etc... we can continue to sneak around" , "She never has to know."...someone gets careless, Then the wife finds out.

Alma found out the hard way that her husband was not only unfaithful, but was unfaithful , not with another woman , but a man. She cannot begin to understand this, therefore she cannot compete or express her outrage as if it was another woman.  She does not possess the anatomy nor the mindset of this other man to compete. She eventually found a way out. This leaves Ennis on his own , free to be  in a life with Jack. But there are other elements at play here. Alma had the ammo to destoy him ,though she never played that card against them to her credit, but Jack was still left to suffer Ennis's refusal to take advantage of this new found freedom and I'm not sure who suffered the most  in the end, Jack or Alma. Neither one had a real "life "under Ennis. Jack tried everything in the book  within his power to get Ennis to commit to a life with him. The battle was not with Alma, but was within  Ennis himself, the worst kind to over come. Unfortuatlely it became Jack's battle too. My take.

[ethan]

Alma found out the hard way that her husband was not only unfaithful, but was unfaithful , not with another woman , but a man. She cannot begin to understand this, therefore she cannot compete or express her outrage as if it was another woman.  She does not possess the anatomy nor the mindset of this other man to compete. She eventually found a way out. This leaves Ennis on his own , free to be  in a life with Jack. But there are other elements at play here. Alma had the ammo to destoy him ,though she never played that card against them to her credit, but Jack was still left to suffer Ennis's refusal to take advantage of this new found freedom and I'm not sure who suffered the most  in the end, Jack or Alma. Neither one had a real "life "under Ennis. Jack tried everything in the book  within his power to get Ennis to commit to a life with him. The battle was not with Alma, but was within  Ennis himself, the worst kind to over come. Unfortuatlely it became Jack's battle too. My take.

Very interesting take, aintfooin.  Thanks.

If you looked at the divorce scene again, you will see tears in Ennis's eyes.  Why do you think this was? 

I tend to think Ennis's tears were his failure to keep the marriage intact, not because of his love for Alma.

[welshwitch]

I agree, Ethan, and also think that to some degree they were an outward manifestion of his inner turmoil - now Alma was gone, and was taking the children with her, there were far fewer obstacles to his living with Jack. I can imagine him desperately thinking of how he was going to keep Jack at arm's length most of thetime and maintain the intermittent meetings which were all that he could handle. He must have known that Jack would drop everything for him and that must have been a frightening thought. Sometimes the love of another, however much you want it, can become a burden, specially when you can't live up to it, and I think Ennis knew deep inside that he was never going to commit wholeheartedly, publicly and irrevocably to Jack

[manhattangirl]

I agree, Ethan, and also think that to some degree they were an outward manifestion of his inner turmoil - now Alma was gone, and was taking the children with her, there were far fewer obstacles to his living with Jack. I can imagine him desperately thinking of how he was going to keep Jack at arm's length most of thetime and maintain the intermittent meetings which were all that he could handle. He must have known that Jack would drop everything for him and that must have been a frightening thought. Sometimes the love of another, however much you want it, can become a burden, specially when you can't live up to it, and I think Ennis knew deep inside that he was never going to commit wholeheartedly, publicly and irrevocably to Jack

I agree with what you said.   I think in this respect Ennis was so unfair to Jack. 

[ethan]

I agree, Ethan, and also think that to some degree they were an outward manifestion of his inner turmoil - now Alma was gone, and was taking the children with her, there were far fewer obstacles to his living with Jack. I can imagine him desperately thinking of how he was going to keep Jack at arm's length most of thetime and maintain the intermittent meetings which were all that he could handle. He must have known that Jack would drop everything for him and that must have been a frightening thought. Sometimes the love of another, however much you want it, can become a burden, specially when you can't live up to it, and I think Ennis knew deep inside that he was never going to commit wholeheartedly, publicly and irrevocably to Jack

Great observation. In a way that Ennis was freed when his life with Alma was over. Jack did drop everything for him but only to be sent away. I feel that without the marriage as a cover-up for Ennis, he could not bear the burden to spend his life with Jack.

[tpe]

Wonderful exchange here.  Thanks all.


There is so much truth to what WW said about love becoming a burden. 

And Ethan's comment about Ennis' tears is quite interesting and provocative.  I must admit that a part of me thinks that Ennis somehow loved something in Alma -- at least what she represented to him: the representation of a life that he so desperately wanted to belong to.  This blurs the distinction between Alma as beloved versus Alma as symbol.

And as WW said, the manifestation of inner turmoil does not necessarily mean love.  Perhaps only regret on a failed life together.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis had to face the prospect of being "queer" all on his own, Alma was no longer there to ease that pressure.  Let's face it that's a scary proposition for a man like Ennis.  Out there in the world confronted with choices of continuing self-denial or final self-acceptance, and self-denial wins.     

Even more parnoid than before, he's thinking now they all can tell, like there's a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead.   How could he be good with Jack,  if he's not good with himself, and through it all,  he still wasn't letting Jack go, at no point did this entered his mind, but keeping Jack on Brokeback Mountain making him stay put, Jack certainly was someone he couldn't stand losing, and that world where they were safe. 

 

   

     

 

[ethan]

Very interesting posts.

I guess in a way - the divorce answered Jack's question, "you and Alma, that is a life?"

To Ennis, it was frightening. As MG pointed out, "a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead.

[iamakashiMAN]

As I was editing the video for 40th Anniversary of Ennis and Jack's reunion, this particular line caught my attention.

Ennis: ..you got your wife and baby down in Taxas, I got my life in Riverton.
Jack: Is that so? You and Alma, that's a life?

Given Ennis who is a man of a few words, how much does Jack know about Ennis and Alma's life? How much do you think Ennis tell Jack about his life with Alma that prompted Jack to ask if Ennis and Alma have a life?

What was Jack implying? Did Jack just assume that Ennis's true love was him, not Alma?

in my oppinion Jack knew that Ennis was the one for him and thought that Ennis would feel the same way. When they kiss and squeeze the braeth out of each other on the stairs Jack realized that Ennis's life is the same as his with Lureen- not much love, kids and one true love they will never speak about.

[tpe]

Ennis had to face the prospect of being "queer" all on his own, Alma was no longer there to ease that pressure.  Let's face it that's a scary proposition for a man like Ennis.  Out there in the world confronted with choices of continuing self-denial or final self-acceptance, and self-denial wins.     

Even more parnoid than before, he's thinking now they all can tell, like there's a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead.   How could he be good with Jack,  if he's not good with himself, and through it all,  he still wasn't letting Jack go, at no point did this entered his mind, but keeping Jack on Brokeback Mountain making him stay put, Jack certainly was someone he couldn't stand losing, and that world where they were safe. 

Interesting. 

In a sense, Ennis's "life" with Alma was more a means rather than an end, no?  With Alma and the marriage gone, there was nothing to ease the anxiety, as you say, regarding his own identity.  The marriage helped Ennis cope with himself and his fears, even as he continued to see Jack and betray the very fabric of that marriage.  That's because the betrayal of one was equivalent to being faithful and truthful to that other part of him that knew no fear and knew whom to love.

[tpe]

Very interesting posts.

I guess in a way - the divorce answered Jack's question, "you and Alma, that is a life?"

To Ennis, it was frightening. As MG pointed out, "a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead.

Yes, the scarlet "Q" -- and the irony of it all is that it was Ennis who saw it the most.

[tpe]

in my oppinion Jack knew that Ennis was the one for him and thought that Ennis would feel the same way. When they kiss and squeeze the braeth out of each other on the stairs Jack realized that Ennis's life is the same as his with Lureen- not much love, kids and one true love they will never speak about.

Welcome to the forum, iamakashiMAN.

You bring up an important point here: that Jack probably assumed that Ennis' life with ALma was pretty much like his life with Lureen.  It is a form of reflection -- of a transitive association extrapolated between 2 people of like natures.  You are probably right: this was what Jack probably had in mind when he questioned Ennis's life with Alma.

 

[liketheyallknow]

In questioning whether Ennis and Alma had a life,  Jack is picking up hints from Ennis's own words, as well as making assumptions ( as others have pointed out).  Ennis's statements in the motel 'I'm stuck with what I got here' and ' makin' a livin's 'bout all I got time for now'  were delivered in a downbeat tone of voice, with an air of miserable resignation.
Jack's facial response indicates that he reads too much into Ennis's 'shut up about Alma this aint her fault' in my view. Does Jack think that Ennis's defence of Alma means Ennis loves her? I think Ennis is just pointing out that the situation they find themselves in shouldn't be used as a reason to insult or blame Alma  - it is out of her control.

[tpe]

There is also the air of complicity when Jack is intorduced to Alma just after the reunion kiss.  Jack must have felt extremely awkward, and we can forgive him if he thought that Ennis's life with Alma must be a sham.  Complicity in the act of betrayal is of course also felt by Alma, who -- unbeknownst to Ennis and Jack -- observed the reunion kiss.  We can understand Jack's questioning Ennis's life with Alma.   After all, betrayal of one's wife is not exactly a good sign in a marriage.