Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure?

[tpe]

Deatj probably even strengthened it...

[atalley]

I agree. :\'( 

[myprivatejack]

Deatj probably even strengthened it...

Yes,I agree too...Sometimes I've thought that Ennis felt somehow closer to Jack when he was dead than never before being this alive.Maybe for having realised the extent of their love,which he felt and what was felt for him...

[tpe]

I think one reason why Ennis felt closer was because jack's death gave him a renewed appreciation of the time thye had shared together.  Ennis never seemed to consider the possibility of them being "forever" separated.  In a way, he was right.  I am not even talking about an afterlife here.  I just think that even after jack died, he remained/remains a strong presence in Ennis's inner life.  We see this explicitly in the dream sequences in the ss, and in Ennis cherishing the shirts.

[atalley]

Very well put, Thomas.

[tpe]

Thanks atalley.  I really feel that that was the primary function of the dream sequences -- to point out that Jack continued to live as a denizen of Ennis's inner life.  I think this is no less real than flesh and blood, as far as Ennis is concerned.  His reactions to these dreams were real enough...

[myprivatejack]

Thanks atalley.  I really feel that that was the primary function of the dream sequences -- to point out that Jack continued to live as a denizen of Ennis's inner life.  I think this is no less real than flesh and blood, as far as Ennis is concerned.  His reactions to these dreams were real enough...

It's clear that Jack continued to live in Ennis mind,heart and soul; as you say,it's not less real than flesh and blood,IMO even stronger.Because it's something not lived,but FELT,and that's forever.For this reason,I'm every time surer that,even if the relationship broke,there would always be a flame that would unite them,both in live and in death.

[Matt Nasty]

It's clear that Jack continued to live in Ennis mind,heart and soul; as you say,it's not less real than flesh and blood,IMO even stronger.Because it's something not lived,but FELT,and that's forever.For this reason,I'm every time surer that,even if the relationship broke,there would always be a flame that would unite them,both in live and in death.

well said!

[myprivatejack]

well said!

Thanks,Matt ¡ 

[tpe]

It's clear that Jack continued to live in Ennis mind,heart and soul; as you say,it's not less real than flesh and blood,IMO even stronger.Because it's something not lived,but FELT,and that's forever.For this reason,I'm every time surer that,even if the relationship broke,there would always be a flame that would unite them,both in live and in death.

I have a feeling sometimes that Jack "haunted" Ennis, and I don't mean this as a ghostly visitation.

Sometimes, being haunted by something is almost tantamount to being pursued -- of being hunted.  No intentional play of words here.  When one is haunted by something, it becomes more real than reality itself, because if continues to dwell in the mind's eye.

 

[Matt Nasty]

I have a feeling sometimes that Jack "haunted" Ennis, and I don't mean this as a ghostly visitation.

Sometimes, being haunted by something is almost tantamount to being pursued -- of being hunted.  No intentional play of words here.  When one is haunted by something, it becomes more real than reality itself, because if continues to dwell in the mind's eye.

 

i agree...and you cant look away from wht you see in your minds eye.

[myprivatejack]

I have a feeling sometimes that Jack "haunted" Ennis, and I don't mean this as a ghostly visitation.

Sometimes, being haunted by something is almost tantamount to being pursued -- of being hunted.  No intentional play of words here.  When one is haunted by something, it becomes more real than reality itself, because if continues to dwell in the mind's eye.

i agree...and you cant look away from wht you see in your minds eye.

I agree with both of you; sometimes you see more clearly with mind's eyes than with your physical eyes.But in this case,the vision is surrounded by a deep love,that is the best haunting IMO.

[Matt Nasty]

I agree with both of you; sometimes you see more clearly with mind's eyes than with your physical eyes.But in this case,the vision is surrounded by a deep love,that is the best haunting IMO.

also very true///mor ethen any other emotion love is the most relentlesly haunting....

[tpe]

i agree...and you cant look away from wht you see in your minds eye.

Exactly!

[tpe]

I agree with both of you; sometimes you see more clearly with mind's eyes than with your physical eyes.But in this case,the vision is surrounded by a deep love,that is the best haunting IMO.

A love-haunted sight.

[myprivatejack]

Maybe the both of them would have been more united in death than they've been being Jack alive; and maybe more than they would have been if they have lived together without getting free of all their fears and doubts.It's tragic to admit this,but it's what I think somehow...

[tpe]

Maybe the both of them would have been more united in death than they've been being Jack alive; and maybe more than they would have been if they have lived together without getting free of all their fears and doubts.It's tragic to admit this,but it's what I think somehow...

TYes, I do feel that there was an element of redemption in Jack's death and Ennis's gradual awakening.  As the cliche goes, Jack is now more real to Ennis than he ever was when he was alive.  It's because he is now completely under Ennis's skin.



 

[atalley]

Wow Thomas, that's so true and so sad.

[myprivatejack]

TYes, I do feel that there was an element of redemption in Jack's death and Ennis's gradual awakening.  As the cliche goes, Jack is now more real to Ennis than he ever was when he was alive.  It's because he is now completely under Ennis's skin.

Wonderful phrases,Thomas¡ .I also think that Jack was more real in death than he ever was being alive because then he was really as Ennis wanted him to be.He could pretend he was living with him in a way he had never allowed him when they're met each one.He could "invent" this life together,he could even invent Jack himself,without dangers,without denials,without fears...

[tpe]

Thanks  atalley and MPJ.

You know, I do have this feeling that all that time Ennis spent in his trailer between Jack's death and Jr's marriage -- he was perhaps living a life with Jack, if only in dreams.  So many people who withdraw from the world invariably do this, no?  I think this echoes what MPJ just said.  But at that stage, who are we to say which is dream and which is reality?

It would endure precisely because of the absence of denials, the absence of fears...

[myprivatejack]

Thanks  atalley and MPJ.

You know, I do have this feeling that all that time Ennis spent in his trailer between Jack's death and Jr's marriage -- he was perhaps living a life with Jack, if only in dreams.  So many people who withdraw from the world invariably do this, no?  I think this echoes what MPJ just said.  But at that stage, who are we to say which is dream and which is reality?

It would endure precisely because of the absence of denials, the absence of fears...

That's right,Thomas¡    A perfect relationship in dreams,even if it wasn't so perfect in reality...

[tpe]

Thanks also MPJ.

We know very well that some people live in dreams and also for the sake of dreams.  I admit that I am sometimes like this, perferring an interior life to action.  I call it my monastic phase.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks too,Thomas and friends¡ But I think we've been slightly  ,because it's true that their relationship get another dimension after Jack's death-another deeper,greater and less guilty dimension than before...-.But what we are discussing is how many time do you think their relationship would have endure being Jack alive and after the confrontation scene?.

[tpe]

Thanks too,Thomas and friends¡ But I think we've been slightly  ,because it's true that their relationship get another dimension after Jack's death-another deeper,greater and less guilty dimension than before...-.But what we are discussing is how many time do you think their relationship would have endure being Jack alive and after the confrontation scene?.

But they are intrinsically related, no?  Or perhaps sides of the same coin.  To answer the question of how long their love would endure, we must address why people persist in dreaming, even if the dreamer himself/herself is dead.  Dreams have a separate life -- that is why things endure long after the dreamers awaken.

 

[babytammy7]

But they are intrinsically related, no?  Or perhaps sides of the same coin.  To answer the question of how long their love would endure, we must address why people persist in dreaming, even if the dreamer himself/herself is dead.  Dreams have a separate life -- that is why things endure long after the dreamers awaken.
 

WOW, Thomas!!  That's exactly what I've always thought. I think I know a lot about dreams and about what dreams are made of. I'm, like Jack was, a big dreamer.

[myprivatejack]

But they are intrinsically related, no?  Or perhaps sides of the same coin.  To answer the question of how long their love would endure, we must address why people persist in dreaming, even if the dreamer himself/herself is dead.  Dreams have a separate life -- that is why things endure long after the dreamers awaken. 

Yes,you're right,as always...But we can see how their relationship was really made of dreams; Jack's dream when alive and Ennis dream's when he was alone about a "sweet life together".Not altogether,not before Jack's death...And yes,they're related somehow,above all when dreams is all what remains.

[tpe]

Thanks Tammy and MPJ.

In the end, I think dreams are what Ennis has left.  But I think they would suffice to make their love endure beyond death itself.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks Tammy and MPJ.

In the end, I think dreams are what Ennis has left.  But I think they would suffice to make their love endure beyond death itself.

Yes,Ennis only has dreams in the end.And dreaming in what would have been and wasn't is what makes their love eternal.IMO,more than being Jack alive,however...

[tpe]

Yes,Ennis only has dreams in the end.And dreaming in what would have been and wasn't is what makes their love eternal.IMO,more than being Jack alive,however...

It would have been worse than death for Ennis to be deprieved of his dreams.  Whether or not the dreams were happy or sad, I would think that Ennis would not want to live without them.  Perhaps the dreams became his own reality.  Their love certainly endures in dreams.

[rlh03]

Folks, I'm a hopeless romantic, I guess, when it comes to Ennis and Jack.  In seeing the movie,and ever since, the very thought of Jack being forever gone, Ennis alone for the rest of his life, still brings me to tears.  In  my mind, and heart, in spite of how they separated, I think they both experienced a greater awareness of the love each had for the other.  Notwithstanding the fears, angers, Jack's immediate dreams and needs for 'a life together', Ennis' fears of rejection from his daughters if he were to leave them before they grew up, and fears of wht might happen if their love was exposed, I think you have to agree that in their hearts neither really could imagine a life without the other.  Had Jack lived I sincerely believe they would have struggled on in an attempt to finally, and someday, succeed in overcoming their fears and angers and find that wonderful life together.  But thats the hopeless romantic in me.  Poor Ennis, he lived on, alone; and full of sorrow, with no hope of seeing or touching Jack again, for the rest of his life, except in his dreams and nightmares.  And now he could safely admit to himself the strength of his love for Jack, as painful as his life was, and have no fears of anyone finding out or harming either of them.  Perhaps this is what really moves AP's story from the normal usual love story to the spectacular experience it is and will always be.  Richard