Topic: What was it about Ennis?

[liketheyallknow]

Did Jack really think that he could move Ennis eventually?  I think so.  And yet, he must have relished the challenge, no?  Ennis was a challenge for Jack.  He was the horse that had to be broken in.  The summer of 63 was miraculous for him, I gather.  He probably half-expected to fail, but did get Ennis to open up and reciprocate.  After that, he probably felt too confident.  Alas, tomorrow became never.

Ennis was a challenge, oh yes. Jack was always trying to fix it rather than stand it. In the end it was more than he could stand that he had failed. However, Ennis referred to their being 'no reins on this one' (this relationship, or this situation), which could have given Jack hope.  I mean, it is almost Ennis saying - 'I don't know which direction this is going, I can't control it' - as if there was a chance that either one of them could influence how the relationship would go. Of course though he had just minutes earlier said 'it ain't gonna be that way' (referring to the sweet life cow n calf operation). So maybe not...hmmm

[tpe]

Ennis was a challenge, oh yes. Jack was always trying to fix it rather than stand it. In the end it was more than he could stand that he had failed. However, Ennis referred to their being 'no reins on this one' (this relationship, or this situation), which could have given Jack hope.  I mean, it is almost Ennis saying - 'I don't know which direction this is going, I can't control it' - as if there was a chance that either one of them could influence how the relationship would go. Of course though he had just minutes earlier said 'it ain't gonna be that way' (referring to the sweet life cow n calf operation). So maybe not...hmmm

For all Ennis's stubborness, there was a streak of unpredictability that Jack relished.  The meaning of the name "Twist", as revealed by Proulx to Gyllenhaal, certainly speaks eloquently of jack's desire to keep his seat, no matter what the future may bring...

 

[lamusica]

Was he smart enough to see that this was going to be a repeat of the mistake he'd made marrying Alma do you think? (at the time by the campfire when he said was putting the blocks to her ) Or was that beyond Ennis's capabilities - he  was getting tired of her but didn't figure out why? He just sounded so bored with it when he spoke to Jack about her. This seemed quite telling to me - quite deliberate. Was he trying to communicate to Jack that he was struggling in yet another relationship with a woman?

I think Ennis was, as you said, just tired of trying to love women.  He failed with Alma -- was failing with Cassie.  Only found real happiness with Jack, but still couldn't get up the nerve to commit anything more to Jack than occasional meetings in the mountains.  Ennis was worn down and disatisfied, but he couldn't put that into words. He could, however, put it into action by dumping Cassie -- just not responding to her any longer.
the other thing you said that was interesting to me was that Jack and Ennis didn't open up to one another like they did 19 years ago. I think you're right about that, too.  Maybe we all do that unconsiously as we grow into a relationship.  We think the other person knows and intuits things and so we don't have to say them.  We're wrong about that at times, as were our guys.  I sometimes think it was the infrequency of their coming together times that made this happen.  When you only see someone a few days a few times a year, there's a lot of living you just can't share.  It's not like being together on a daily basis where you share everyday happenings as a matter of course.  Distance and infrequency of meetings were definite enemies to their relationship, in MHO.

[liketheyallknow]

the other thing you said that was interesting to me was that Jack and Ennis didn't open up to one another like they did 19 years ago. I think you're right about that, too.  Maybe we all do that unconsiously as we grow into a relationship.  We think the other person knows and intuits things and so we don't have to say them.  We're wrong about that at times, as were our guys.  I sometimes think it was the infrequency of their coming together times that made this happen.  When you only see someone a few days a few times a year, there's a lot of living you just can't share.  It's not like being together on a daily basis where you share everyday happenings as a matter of course.  Distance and infrequency of meetings were definite enemies to their relationship, in MHO.

Yes I agree lamusca, in the camps they were with each other for weeks, built  a real relationship, until that fateful snow arrived early. From then on as you say it was stop / start, never enough time to really get to know each other.  If you don't talk about big issues straight away, then the moment is gone. Interestingly Ennis did contact Jack about the divorce, as if he did want share that with him. Jack got the wrong message of course. Here I think Jack missed a trick, he could have been more interested in his lover's anguish at getting a diivorce, but I guess he missed Ennis so much all he could think about was getting back close with him.

Some relationships work well on time apart, avoiding the sort of domesticated familiarity that can breed contempt, and  absense makes the heart grow fonder. But to my mind their meetings were too infrequent and short for that to work.  You need to gather and maintain some momentum in a relationship, move on, move through stages.  If they'd been able to meet 5 or 6 times a year it could have made a difference to the end result.

Getting back to the question, I wonder if whatever it was about Ennis that attracted Jack  changed over time in Jack's mind? I think perhaps so - at first he was mainly physically attracted, a bit curious, then he found out Ennis could be fun, and a good friend, and was prepared to make sacrifices for Jack (sleeping in the pup tent etc.) After the mountain though did it really change much, or where they both a bit guilty of building everything on Brokeback? MO.

[aintfoolin]

 I agree totally with these two excellent posts.  Alot of opportunity was lost with the infrequent meetings and distance. How could they build a stable relationship this way? When they were up on BBM the consistency allowed them to be there for each other. We know Ennis changed his outward habits, for more cautious  ( even paranoid awareness )of Jack and himself, but I think Jack changed too.  Ennis did'nt need the sexual gratification as often as Jack, but no one can tell me he did'nt crave Jack at times.  Personally I think Ennis did know " how bad it got"  for himself as Jack found solace in other sexual adventures , at times, putting himself at risk of hurt, harm and danger. I feel they could have both benefitted from a * half-way  meeting *in their times of "need "as well as in their overall relationship. No one really wins , but nobody really looses either.

[manhattangirl]

Jack was always Ennis's "sign of life". Ennis problems are when he is not with Jack, life was going through the motions until the next time he would be with him.  But this Ennis suffered willingly, as if penance for his love  and need for Jack.  He pledged his life to Jack in a way,  his need for Jack was deep in every aspect of their relationship, emotional, mental, sexually.  I believe Ennis sexual need for Jack was great, and maybe even greater than that of Jack.  Knowing this he was always so careful when he around Jack, he had to keep himself in deep check as far as that goes, when he told  Jack "when we're around each and this thing comes over us"  That "thing" was him.  His need for Jack had to be controlled.

All these conflicting emotions, the need, the wanting, and the control of these feelings, was in order to protect himself and the one he love.  How can you tell someone who is so closed in and closed-up that what they feel is OK, when they were taught it was bad. When Ennis said "It's because of you Jack I"m this way", he was "that way" all along, and it never cross his mind he was. 

How can you change a person way of thinking?

[tpe]

Jack was always Ennis's "sign of life". Ennis problems are when he is not with Jack, life was going through the motions until the next time he would be with him.  But this Ennis suffered willingly, as if penance for his love  and need for Jack.  He pledged his life to Jack in a way,  his need for Jack was deep in every aspect of their relationship, emotional, mental, sexually.  I believe Ennis sexual need for Jack was great, and maybe even greater than that of Jack.  Knowing this he was always so careful when he around Jack, he had to keep himself in deep check as far as that goes, when he told  Jack "when we're around each and this thing comes over us"  That "thing" was him.  His need for Jack had to be controlled.

All these conflicting emotions, the need, the wanting, and the control of these feelings, was in order to protect himself and the one he love.  How can you tell someone who is so closed in and closed-up that what they feel is OK, when they were taught it was bad. When Ennis said "It's because of you Jack I"m this way", he was "that way" all along, and it never cross his mind he was. 

How can you change a person way of thinking?

How interesting that you associate Ennis's suffering with a kind of penance willingly undertaken, because of his love for Jack.

Love and guilt figure so large in the landscape of Ennis's psyche, no?  It is as if, for Ennis, one cannot have one without the other...

[welshwitch]

There's a saying, isn't there - ' "Take what you like from life" says God, " but pay." '
I think in an inchoate fashion Ennis has more sense of consequences than Jack does.

[aintfoolin]

 Someone once said, To feel guilt, one must know truth. Both knew it. One embraced it, one fought it. Still , through it all, love and truth remained till the bitter end.

[tpe]

Thnaks WW and aintfoolin.

I sometimes wonder whether Jack was less aware of the consequences.  I think he was pretty much aware of it (witness his hasty retreat from the bar after talking with the Rodeo clown), but he took greater risks.

And as aintfoolin implied, both of them knew if through a vision of guilt.  But Ennis was probably more mired in self-guilt than Jack was, to be sure. 

[myprivatejack]

Coming back to the question of the changes in their relationship,I think it´s logical,not only because a person is not the same being 20 years-old than 40,but also because in the beginning of any relationship happens what I call "champagne bubbles"-sexually speaking-and after,little by little,the attraction doesn´t vanish,but changes,you know-and more still when they were only 19-.Far from their first youthful and volcanic knocking downs,their relationship was more mature,quieter,but it had the problem of the distance,making a kind of contradiction:on one hand,seeing the one you love once in a while often idealizes this and the relationship;on the other hand,it´s not a strong basis to create a couple that works well enough.I think this was the dichotomy they overcame  and that perhaps Ennis understood better than Jack.I don´t know,it´s my opinion.

[welshwitch]

One of the things that nags at me is the thought that maybe it's Ennis's very intransigence that keeps Jack involved with him. Supposing Ennis changed, and he and Jack found a place to start that sweet life together. Would Ennis still fascinate Jack after months, or perhaps a year or more, of close proximity and the need to earn a living, perhaps in rather demanding circumstances? I suppose what I'm getting at is the idea that the very infrequency of their meetings keeps the sexual charge going and the lack of the need to get bogged down by routine and mundane considerations is part of the attraction of a long-disatnce relationship.Jack has had more experience of the world than Ennis, has wider horizons - I sometimes wonder if in the end Ennis wouldn't be able to keep up with him.

[myprivatejack]

That´s the main danger in any relationship,isn´t it?:we idealize it often,too often in some cases,and think that with loving each other everything works by itself.
But more often,unfortunately,the daily routine,the problems that earning a life carries,the struggle between two differents ways of being,break this cotton cloud in which we´ve builded our home...And in the case of our heroes,perhaps the different characters,and,above all,Ennis constants fears had made their living not so "sweet" as we wish and imagine.I agree with you,ww,that the distance kept this idealisation and the sexual need for each other alive;but,as I said in my former post,it also could have been a way to separate them at last,specially when Jack saw that his dream was every time further and further.

[proulxfan]

But in contrast to this, there is still that amazing admission that Jack makes, after almost 20 years of their infrequent get-togethers: " The truth is...sometimes I miss you so much..." Yes there are the dangers that familiarity and constant togetherness might pose, but to feel that strongly after all that time and all they had been through together and separately, speaks of an exceptionally strong bond.

And Annie's description of Ennis as "that achingly needy ranch kid".. while he may not be a kid by the end, he is as needy as ever if not more so, and that, I think, is what Jack is really drawn to. As are we. 

Their need for each other, conscious (Jack) or supressed (Ennis) is undiminished. 

(But I can hear Jack muttering "Damn you Ennis!" under his breath quite a lot...)

[myprivatejack]

Of course,their need for each other-sexually.affectively and emotionally-was strong enough to endure in some not always easy conditions
But we were speaking about the  endurance or not of their relationship if this life together arrived,and you must admit that the circomstances were not the best to keep on being so sweet...Sometimes,one thing is love somebody beyond yourself and another is beeing able to live with him/her maintaining this charming.Perhaps it´s the difference between being sensible or sensitive-and that worries English students so much...-.I personally have had a 20 years relationship with years without seeing each other,other relationship on the part of me,and so on;our bond is strong,and always will,but I know living with her wouldn´t be so nice,and neither had it been before.
It´s not an obstacle for that we miss and love each other.She´s my private Jack.

[tpe]

Thanks everyone for the wonderful recent exchanges!

So what is it about Ennis? 

Could it be his need to love and be loved?  His need to be whole and to make whole?

One can argue that someone like Jack also needed to love as much as be loved; to be made whole as much as make someone else whole.

Perhaps it was because, in a very deep sense, Jack and Ennis are more similar and complementary than we think.  In spite of one's fears and the other's dreams, both were drawn to each other because they were both the same as much as both were (complementarily) different.

[proulxfan]

tpe,


:\'(


Then again-and please don't shoot the messenger-I have gay friends who have seen the movie more than once, and they didn't really like it, and they think Ennis is a jerk. And certainly there is ample evidence to support this point-of-view throughout the film. (I myself once pondered starting a thread entitled Ennis's Warts, as I have struggled within myself to understand how I could be drawn so strongly to a character with so many behavioral issues.) But it does make sense to me that how one reacts to the character of Ennis may well determine how one reacts to the film.

I think the short story gives more insight into Ennis's thoughts and inner feelings, and so it's harder for me to imagine someone feeling like this after reading the ss.

[myprivatejack]

Tpe,I always wonder how your posts are similar to what I think In also my opinion,Jack and Ennis were different in characters and reactions,it´s true;but for this same reason,they were complementaries enough as to give one another what they lack in every moment.And for this also they were so close during so many years;because they were the same in that they needed to love and be loved, more than even they believed themselves.The problem was perhaps in the way each one of them showed this need...

[tpe]

tpe,


:\'(


Then again-and please don't shoot the messenger-I have gay friends who have seen the movie more than once, and they didn't really like it, and they think Ennis is a jerk. And certainly there is ample evidence to support this point-of-view throughout the film. (I myself once pondered starting a thread entitled Ennis's Warts, as I have struggled within myself to understand how I could be drawn so strongly to a character with so many behavioral issues.) But it does make sense to me that how one reacts to the character of Ennis may well determine how one reacts to the film.

I think the short story gives more insight into Ennis's thoughts and inner feelings, and so it's harder for me to imagine someone feeling like this after reading the ss.

proulxfan, the same here.  I just posted in another thread a recollection from a gay couple who thought that Ennis's treatment of Alma was devious. 

Ennis both repels and attracts us.  In a way, it is the same with Jack, no? 

I think those very traits that repel us from Ennis add depth to his condition.  He's not perfect, as much as Jack is not perfect.  That's why we love them, I guess.

[tpe]

Tpe,I always wonder how your posts are similar to what I think In also my opinion,Jack and Ennis were different in characters and reactions,it´s true;but for this same reason,they were complementaries enough as to give one another what they lack in every moment.And for this also they were so close during so many years;because they were the same in that they needed to love and be loved, more than even they believed themselves.The problem was perhaps in the way each one of them showed this need...

Very well said.  They way Ennis showed it bred resentment, even of Jack's part.  This was not to say that jack didn't underastand Ennis -- on the contrary, I think he understood Ennis too well.  And that's where what appears to be a conundrum arises: that Jack understood Ennis best of all, but it did not shield him from resenting that which he only understood all too well.

[myprivatejack]

         I agree again;need I say it?.     The way Ennis showed this need during almost all his life is one of the circumstances that make me wonder:What about Ennis?

[lamusica]

tpe,


:\'(


Then again-and please don't shoot the messenger-I have gay friends who have seen the movie more than once, and they didn't really like it, and they think Ennis is a jerk. And certainly there is ample evidence to support this point-of-view throughout the film. (I myself once pondered starting a thread entitled Ennis's Warts, as I have struggled within myself to understand how I could be drawn so strongly to a character with so many behavioral issues.) But it does make sense to me that how one reacts to the character of Ennis may well determine how one reacts to the film.

I think the short story gives more insight into Ennis's thoughts and inner feelings, and so it's harder for me to imagine someone feeling like this after reading the ss.

I like that idea about Ennis's Warts.  He certainly had a lot of them, but don't we all?  That is what made Ennis real to me.  He wasn't a cookie-cutter cowboy.  He wasn't educatied, but he wasn't stupid.  He wasn't talkative, but he did his share of thinking.  He didn't have people skills, but he still attracted people.  He hadn't experienced much love in his childhood, but he knew how to give it to his own children.  Always, Ennis has faults --- BUT they are tempered by his desire to be kind to his loved ones (Alma, at the beginning, his kids and Jack).  He's not always sucessful with that, but, then again, are our true intentions always fulfilled?  I find his warts to be comfortable since I have my own.  I can accept his, as I would hope my friends and loved ones accept mine.
Sometimes I just quit asking WHY?  I accept that people do what they do because they are trying their best.  Now, if there was evidence of meanness in Ennis, I wouldn't feel anything for him.  I would have written him off, feeling that he reaped what he had sown.  That wasn't the case here.  Ennis was not an active man in changing his status quo.  He was totally reactive.  That's hard to accept, but, if we love the man, we accept those warts, too.

[aintfoolin]

 Excellent post lamusica. I totally agree with this. Jack fell in live with Ennis just as he was . With Jack Ennis not only learned to love but learned how to accept love in return.
He will never win socialite of the year awards, but he is  unspoiled ,kind and giving towards those he loves and cares for.
 He is complicated, yes but he is readable in a common sense kind of way. Trying to understand and process his love for Jack was a hard joruney for him, but got there eventually,  I feel he is a most compelling character. I totally loved him.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

... He is complicated, yes but he is readable in a common sense kind of way. Trying to understand and process his love for Jack was a hard journey for him, but got there eventually,  I feel he is a most compelling character. I totally loved him.

Kudos aintfoolin and lamusica.   You have both put Ennis into words that I have yet to utter. 

[aintfoolin]

Jack was always Ennis's "sign of life". Ennis problems are when he is not with Jack, life was going through the motions until the next time he would be with him.  But this Ennis suffered willingly, as if penance for his love  and need for Jack.  He pledged his life to Jack in a way,  his need for Jack was deep in every aspect of their relationship, emotional, mental, sexually.  I believe Ennis sexual need for Jack was great, and maybe even greater than that of Jack.  Knowing this he was always so careful when he around Jack, he had to keep himself in deep check as far as that goes, when he told  Jack "when we're around each and this thing comes over us"  That "thing" was him.  His need for Jack had to be controlled.

All these conflicting emotions, the need, the wanting, and the control of these feelings, was in order to protect himself and the one he love.  How can you tell someone who is so closed in and closed-up that what they feel is OK, when they were taught it was bad. When Ennis said "It's because of you Jack I"m this way", he was "that way" all along, and it never cross his mind he was. 

How can you change a person way of thinking?

 I've always believed that as much as Jack needed Ennis, Ennis needed  Jack more. These feelings Ennis had for Jack were new to him, but they made him complete as nothing ever had. While apart they both lived a half life, of wanting and lonliness, Ennis more so because he could not shake the guilt and fear of being who he really was. Jack was offering a buffet, but Ennis had learned not to take to much for fear and shame overtook him and caused him to feel undeserving.  I believe the will was there with Ennis, but  a way was impossible for him to find.  Had he been able to get past this one obstacle, Jack would have gotten more than a taste of what Ennis bestowed upon him on BBM. He would have been showered in love  and the gentle kindness that Ennis possesed. I think this  was a big part of what Jack fell in love with about Ennis. I think Jack saw it once, knew it was within Ennis somewhere and tried every way he knew how to get it back.When he found the shirts, only then did he realize what could have been, what Jack knew all along , that love was all they had, and that was enough. That they only needed each other's permission to be together, no one else's.
My thoughts.

[aintfoolin]

 What was it about Ennis?  I am reviving this older thread because I am still on the quest of learning Who Is The Real Ennis Del Mar? This topic best fits what he's all about. It explores him and his relation to others around him, but who was he really? He was sweet, loving and unspoiled on one hand....but...

! A family man certainly. Loved Alma and the girls, but  I always get the feeling that he was'nt truly happy in his marriage. His relationship with Alma seemed loving, yes ,but distant.

2. Has Jack on the side, who is becoming increasingly more of a need and craving  again after 4 years apart.  He did'nt have to answer that postcard, but he did, in fact as gleefully as Ennis got, " You bet" Then in the motel room Jack asks the question " What are we gonna do now? Ennis refers back to above said fam as what he's "stuck with" . The reason he cannot hook up with Jack on a permanant basis after their hopeful reunion.. He feels loyalty to Alma and obligated to the girls. " It ain her fault" He also feels guilt, it's his fault, but what is Jack supposed to think?

 He knew what answering the postcard meant. Reviving old feelings long supressed and dormant from he and Jack's past. This says Ennis was concious of his actions. How does this merge with his family life? Was Ennis gonna be content with the best of both worlds? For how long?
Again, what about Jack?

Jack gets hurt after Alma divorces Ennis because he finds his *place* with Ennis has not changed . I feel he was hurt that now, without Alma standing in he way, he still does'nt mean anymore to Ennis than the "side distraction" he's always been. I think Jack sensed that Ennis was not being straight with him. After all it was Ennis's reasoning concerning his family that was the cause of non-comittal to Jack all along. The reason he did'nt push Ennis more after Brokeback.  First it's Alma whom he feels obligated to marry setting in motion a series of bad choices and the rejection of a commitment to Jack. Jack presents him with a second chance at a full life in the reunion scene, Ennis accepts him with open arms literally, then rejects Jack again. Contacts Jack announcing the divorce , Jack comes running  and Ennis rejects him again. I feel each rejection breaks Jack down a little more.

Giving Jack hope, then rejecting him goes to show again, Ennis was making concious choices, seemingly manuevering this thing in his favor. Maybe what he thought was in  both their best interest until....The confrontation in the end where Jack reins in Ennis finally with the  mere power of words. When Jack wields this power, Ennis becomes almost powerless. Yeah, Ennis tries to maintain control, but in the face of this control jack had over him, he is left powerless. Jack has broken it down and Ennis has  to admit thru his actions that he needs Jack, more than he wants to admit. That it his Jack who actually pulls the strings .Ennis breaks down. Jack sees just how fragile Ennis is by taking away Ennis's means of control. Even then still , it's family that Ennis uses for not meeting Jack in Aug. Jack's heard it all before, the story of his life. This time he does'nt by it blowing Ennis's cover by exposing the issues between them. It was no longer  just about Ennis and his needs. It's about Jack's needs too.

The issue for Ennis becomes even more clear, when he finds the shirts diplayed as they were in the closet. Jack never rejected him ,though he rejected Jack over and over. What Jack offered him  for 20 years was no longer availiable for him to accept even if he he decided to do so. The opportunity to tell Jack he loved him, despite everything, face to face was forever lost.  Who was there for him all thru the picture? Cassie?, Alma? job bosses? kids?  nah, it was Jack. I just feel at times that  the guilt and shame he felt with Jack did'nt come close to the pain, shame and guilt he felt without him. A devastating realization after the fact.. So who was he really? a wanting, confused , conflicted man? ..or a man who had a sense of arrogant, concious entitlement  with means to control  Jack's destiny?...I wonder sometimes. Just a rambling  observation.

[athena0204]

Well, there's so much I can say about Ennis because I feel I understand him completely since he is so much like me in a lot of ways. But I'll keep it short, because it's late, and I ought to be going to bed by now. First off, the whole reason Ennis is a virgin...yes I do believe that Ennis was really attracted to other guys instead of women, and he had known this about himself for quite some time. However, the reason he was a virgin was not because of that. Ennis was raised very conservatively, with "traditional values", so it's obvious that he thought sex is something that should only be done inside of marriage, therefore, he hadn't had sex with Alma because they weren't married yet. As to why he was engaged to Alma...he was fooling himself into thinking that he could be content with her. Ennis is a young man who knows he's attracted to other men, and of course he's never spoken of it or acted upon it, but he knows if anyone were to ever find out, they would never understand him or accept him, and they might also kill him for it. Therefore, he felt his only option was to marry a woman, and live a "traditional" life, as he was expected to by society. Before he met Jack, Ennis had completely fooled himself into thinking that he really loved Alma, and that he would be happy with her. Of course after he met Jack, that all changed. Ennis realized that he had been lying to himself, and knew he would never be happy with Alma, and that he never truly loved Alma. Jack showed him what true love really is. After that, Ennis knew the only person he could ever love and be happy with was Jack. But of course, he knew society would never accept it, so therefore he had to return to his life with Alma, marry her, and live the life that was expected of him. Yeah, he felt miserable about it, because now he could no longer fool himself, but he felt like there was nothing he could do, for he was society's prisoner. As to why Jack falls in love with Ennis...Ennis is so lovable, and so meant for Jack. Only a person like Jack could bring down the wall Ennis had built around himself. Jack saw that behind that wall, there was a beautiful, sensitive, gentle, caring, kind, and emotional soul. Jack understood Ennis like no one else ever could. The saying, "Still waters run deep," really describes Ennis so truely. He was a person who had deep feelings, emotions, and thoughts, but he was very quiet and appeared stoic because to shield himself from this world. What I realize about Ennis is that he really was a romantic idealist, but thought true love was something he would never find in this life...until Jack came along.

[aintfoolin]

Well, there's so much I can say about Ennis because I feel I understand him completely since he is so much like me in a lot of ways. But I'll keep it short, because it's late, and I ought to be going to bed by now. First off, the whole reason Ennis is a virgin...yes I do believe that Ennis was really attracted to other guys instead of women, and he had known this about himself for quite some time. However, the reason he was a virgin was not because of that. Ennis was raised very conservatively, with "traditional values", so it's obvious that he thought sex is something that should only be done inside of marriage, therefore, he hadn't had sex with Alma because they weren't married yet. As to why he was engaged to Alma...he was fooling himself into thinking that he could be content with her. Ennis is a young man who knows he's attracted to other men, and of course he's never spoken of it or acted upon it, but he knows if anyone were to ever find out, they would never understand him or accept him, and they might also kill him for it. Therefore, he felt his only option was to marry a woman, and live a "traditional" life, as he was expected to by society. Before he met Jack, Ennis had completely fooled himself into thinking that he really loved Alma, and that he would be happy with her. Of course after he met Jack, that all changed. Ennis realized that he had been lying to himself, and knew he would never be happy with Alma, and that he never truly loved Alma. Jack showed him what true love really is. After that, Ennis knew the only person he could ever love and be happy with was Jack. But of course, he knew society would never accept it, so therefore he had to return to his life with Alma, marry her, and live the life that was expected of him. Yeah, he felt miserable about it, because now he could no longer fool himself, but he felt like there was nothing he could do, for he was society's prisoner. As to why Jack falls in love with Ennis...Ennis is so lovable, and so meant for Jack. Only a person like Jack could bring down the wall Ennis had built around himself. Jack saw that behind that wall, there was a beautiful, sensitive, gentle, caring, kind, and emotional soul. Jack understood Ennis like no one else ever could. The saying, "Still waters run deep," really describes Ennis so truely. He was a person who had deep feelings, emotions, and thoughts, but he was very quiet and appeared stoic because to shield himself from this world. What I realize about Ennis is that he really was a romantic idealist, but thought true love was something he would never find in this life...until Jack came along.

I absolutly agree that Ennis was a virgin. With only "a year a high school" where else is he going to score with anyone. His family was not exactly on any social registry in Sage WY.  Somehow he manages to meet someone, Alma. Apparently members of the "fire and brimstone "crowd, I seriously doubt that he  was getting anything sexual from her either till after marriage.
Alma was wearing virginal white at the wedding.... She just did'nt strike me as an *experienced* woman.

I agree, that marrying her was something that was expected in his culture. A man grows up and finds a wife. Society says so, so he marrys her, does love her.? I feel to a certain extent. In love with her ...no...How could he? He has no experience with love.

I have said before that Ennis knew he was attracted to other men. It would explain his lonely withdrawl from society and social settings. Perhaps he knew that  certain behavior involving the opposite sex would be expected of him , which has always been so prevalent among the young  *straight* men. Him feeling basically awkward about himself to begin with did'nt help his social skills. His personally so bashful. Where could he go? Who would understand him? Certainly not his family, Earl and Rich were the joke of the town. He had to keep any feelings toward other men hidden or there would be  not so nice consequences paid. He gets engaged, shows the world he's "normal".

When he met Jack, I think it matterd lots to him that Jack *liked * him, because he surely liked Jack. Jack was similar in background and easygoing and just as clueless of the world as he was. Both young men, with little guidance out in the cold, hard world to become men on their own. From this standpoint, Ennis gets an understanding of Jack, right off the bat, his story is similar to Ennis's in many important ways.

The isolated mountain setting was perfect for Ennis if he ever was gonna let these feelings surface. They were both vulnerable but a mutual trust was gained between them first. I feel it was Jack who started to fall first initiating converstion and picking up where he left off in the bar. trying to find "insight" into who Ennis really was. What shaped and molded him into the withdrawn, too quiet type, person Ennis was. Jack having been on the  competitve rodeo circuit, must have found Ennis's  shy, bashful,manner fresh and different . It's obvious, Ennis feared something. I also feel Jack loved a challenge, After Ennis opens up about his upbringing, he has part of his answer. The  qiuet cowboy has alot to say after all. As a friend now he has gained Ennis's trust.  I feel this trust of Jack is what allowed his feelings for Jack to grow. Though still confused and conflicted his feelings emerge in the form of the little "favors" he does for Jack. Getting soup, trading jobs, straightening the tent, etc... little subtle things, Ennis starts to feel he and Jack are a unit. A partnership for him at last. Meanwhile I feel Jack was *reading* Ennis very well, but knows Ennis will never make a first move. So he does.

  I feel that FNIT was unexpected but very much wanted by Ennis, though it was rough and tumble and awkward, I think Ennis found himself in those moments, then completed the process in SNIT. I feel what Ennis has known for years is allowed to come full bloom on the mountain with Jack.  Then came full circle in the reunion scene. It was Jack who only acted the catylist for Ennis's feelings to emerge. I believe there had to be something there repressed and dormant until Borkeback where Jack Twist became  both the cause and recipient of Ennis's first real taste of true love. With or without Alma, I don't think he was ever the same again. He was in love with Jack and the whole experience of Brokeback. For him to deny it is to deny who he really is imo. It lasted 20 years and that's proof that who Ennis really was , was who he was all along. I remain facinated with this character of Ennis. He's so intriquing and complex.

[athena0204]

Yeah, it's definitely no surprise that Ennis was a virgin. From his upbringing, it is clear that he wouldn't have had pre-marital sex. He was someone who played by the rules because that's what was expected of him, so of course he was a virgin. As for his attraction to other guys...I believe it was something he knew about himself, but of kept hidden. Ennis knew he was different, that he didn't fit into the society he lived in...but he just had to live the life that was expected of him. When he met Jack, for the first time in his life, someone understood him and he felt free to be who he really was. The wall he'd built around himself came down. Deep down inside, Ennis was a romantic idealist, but he thought he would never actually find true love because his society would never allow him and the circumstances would never be right or he would never meet the right person. And then when he least expected...along came Jack, and true love had arrived and found Ennis. The isolated setting of Brokeback Mountain made it the perfect place for both of them to be free and happy. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have just lived a discontented life, convincing himself that he loved Alma. After he met Jack, Ennis knew he'd found his one true love, and that was Jack. He knew that he could never fool himself again, but he felt like a prisoner because he had to go back and marry Alma and do what society expected him to. So that's what he did, because he felt like he had no choice, he was scared that he'd end up like Earl if he did what he really wanted to do, if he was really true to himself, and that was to be with Jack. Jack was in a similar situation...although he was less afraid than Ennis. He knew society wouldn't accept him, but he wasn't going to let fear stop him from being with his one true love, Ennis. As to the question of whether or not Jack was a virgin...there's really no evidence that he wasn't. Jack, of course was attracted to other guys, and like Ennis, he had known it for quite some time, but he lived in the same type of society as Ennis, so he too must have kept it hidden. I think the only reason Jack seemed more "experienced" than Ennis, was simply because Jack was a lot more outgoing than Ennis, and didn't have the quiet, introverted personality that Ennis had. I don't really think Jack had had any romantic relationship with anyone before, but him being the outgoing personality, he just initiated it because the wall Ennis had built around himself wasn't going to come down by itself, only someone like Jack, with those particular qualities, and that personality could free Ennis. It's clear to me that they both saw each other, and liked each other from the beginning, and from the beginning knew it was something epic, something true, something deep that neither one had felt before. From the beginning they knew they had found true love. Jack showed Ennis what happiness was, and from then on, Ennis knew that Jack was the only person he needed. That's why Ennis was emotionally distraught and physically sick when they parted ways. Now that he had found his one true love, he didn't know how he was going to go back to the life that was expected of him. He didn't know how he could endure that prison and those chains, after experiencing freedom and happiness with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. He didn't know how he was going to live a single day without Jack, but he felt there was nothing he could do about, so he just had to endure it. Jack felt the same way, but unlike Ennis, Jack believed he could do something about it, that he didn't have to endure it, that he could be with Ennis no matter what, because their love was so true and strong that they would find a way against all odds that society stacked up against them. I wish they had never parted ways and they had remained together since that first summer on Brokeback Mountain...it would have been both Ennis' and Jack's dream come true. If society had been different, Ennis wouldn't have been afraid.  It would have been heaven for them if society hadn't been cruel and ignorant, they would have always been together, and been free and happy. No chains, no suffering, no regrets, no sorrow.

[tpe]

What was it about Ennis?  I am reviving this older thread because I am still on the quest of learning Who Is The Real Ennis Del Mar? This topic best fits what he's all about. It explores him and his relation to others around him, but who was he really? He was sweet, loving and unspoiled on one hand....but...

! A family man certainly. Loved Alma and the girls, but  I always get the feeling that he was'nt truly happy in his marriage. His relationship with Alma seemed loving, yes ,but distant.

2. Has Jack on the side, who is becoming increasingly more of a need and craving  again after 4 years apart.  He did'nt have to answer that postcard, but he did, in fact as gleefully as Ennis got, " You bet" Then in the motel room Jack asks the question " What are we gonna do now? Ennis refers back to above said fam as what he's "stuck with" . The reason he cannot hook up with Jack on a permanant basis after their hopeful reunion.. He feels loyalty to Alma and obligated to the girls. " It ain her fault" He also feels guilt, it's his fault, but what is Jack supposed to think?

 He knew what answering the postcard meant. Reviving old feelings long supressed and dormant from he and Jack's past. This says Ennis was concious of his actions. How does this merge with his family life? Was Ennis gonna be content with the best of both worlds? For how long?
Again, what about Jack?

Jack gets hurt after Alma divorces Ennis because he finds his *place* with Ennis has not changed . I feel he was hurt that now, without Alma standing in he way, he still does'nt mean anymore to Ennis than the "side distraction" he's always been. I think Jack sensed that Ennis was not being straight with him. After all it was Ennis's reasoning concerning his family that was the cause of non-comittal to Jack all along. The reason he did'nt push Ennis more after Brokeback.  First it's Alma whom he feels obligated to marry setting in motion a series of bad choices and the rejection of a commitment to Jack. Jack presents him with a second chance at a full life in the reunion scene, Ennis accepts him with open arms literally, then rejects Jack again. Contacts Jack announcing the divorce , Jack comes running  and Ennis rejects him again. I feel each rejection breaks Jack down a little more.

Giving Jack hope, then rejecting him goes to show again, Ennis was making concious choices, seemingly manuevering this thing in his favor. Maybe what he thought was in  both their best interest until....The confrontation in the end where Jack reins in Ennis finally with the  mere power of words. When Jack wields this power, Ennis becomes almost powerless. Yeah, Ennis tries to maintain control, but in the face of this control jack had over him, he is left powerless. Jack has broken it down and Ennis has  to admit thru his actions that he needs Jack, more than he wants to admit. That it his Jack who actually pulls the strings .Ennis breaks down. Jack sees just how fragile Ennis is by taking away Ennis's means of control. Even then still , it's family that Ennis uses for not meeting Jack in Aug. Jack's heard it all before, the story of his life. This time he does'nt by it blowing Ennis's cover by exposing the issues between them. It was no longer  just about Ennis and his needs. It's about Jack's needs too.

The issue for Ennis becomes even more clear, when he finds the shirts diplayed as they were in the closet. Jack never rejected him ,though he rejected Jack over and over. What Jack offered him  for 20 years was no longer availiable for him to accept even if he he decided to do so. The opportunity to tell Jack he loved him, despite everything, face to face was forever lost.  Who was there for him all thru the picture? Cassie?, Alma? job bosses? kids?  nah, it was Jack. I just feel at times that  the guilt and shame he felt with Jack did'nt come close to the pain, shame and guilt he felt without him. A devastating realization after the fact.. So who was he really? a wanting, confused , conflicted man? ..or a man who had a sense of arrogant, concious entitlement  with means to control  Jack's destiny?...I wonder sometimes. Just a rambling  observation.

He was both, IMO.  Like many of us at crucial times in our lives, he is torn between polar opposites.  He was deeply conflicted.  This is what gives life and depth to his character.