Author Topic: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death? (Read 30676 times)

manhattangirl · « **on:** Aug 16, 2007, 06:17 AM »

What really caused Jack's death? Was it intolerance, was it just an accident, or was it Ennis. Jack seemed to spend his life on the road. Mexico, Texas, LF and Brokeback Mountain. Looking for something and really never finding it, no matter how he much he wanted it.

18 hours from Childless to Riverton to LF, and Mexico in between. He died alone on a road he have spent half his life on. Looking for love he spent half his life seeking.

And Ennis blamed Lureen, blamed a faceless mob, but shouldn't he take some responsibility himself?

tpe · « **Reply #1 on:** Aug 16, 2007, 07:16 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Aug 16, 2007, 06:17 AM

What really caused Jack's death? Was it intolerance, was it just an accident, or was it Ennis. Jack seemed to spend his life on the road. Mexico, Texas, LF and Brokeback Mountain. Looking for something and really never finding it, no matter how he much he wanted it.

18 hours from Childless to Riverton to LF, and Mexico in between. He died alone on a road he have spent half his life on. Looking for love he spent half his life seeking.

And Ennis blamed Lureen, blamed a faceless mob, but shouldn't he take some responsibility himself?

I think that Ennis also felt resposible for Jack's death. It would seem that his not seeing his daughters for nearly 2 years would indicated a withdrawal from the world. I also think that part of his motivation for going up to LF and suggesting that he bring Jack's ashes to BBM was an attempt to make up somehow -- to finally take responsibility to see that Jack's wishes were carried out.

And yes, I suspect that Ennis would not be too hard on me if I say that he was partly to blame. But it wasn't just the death per se -- it was more about Jack's dying without realizing his dream that I blame Ennis.

welshwitch · « **Reply #2 on:** Aug 16, 2007, 02:43 PM »

I suppose both could have been targeted had they been living together. I suppose Jack could have been targeted because of Randall rather than Ennis. And there are homophobes everywhere, not just in Texas.

I suppose you can say it's Ennis's fault for driving or keeping Jack away, and that precipitates Jack's behavior in going ot Mexico and at least listening to Randall's proposal and thinking about it.

But then Ennis is Ennis and there's nothing he can do about it, any more than we can help what life has made us.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #3 on:** Aug 21, 2007, 07:49 PM »

This is a tough question to answer. I think that Ennis's refusal to live with Jack stemmed mostly from his fears of the world, but I think his refusal was more "noble" in that he was not doing it to protect himself, rather he never wanted to see Jack dead in a ditch. I think upon finding out about Jack's death he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. As Thomas mentioned above, him going to LF to try to get the ashes was his way of trying to give one thing to Jack, to make one of his wishes come true. IMO, he did so, symbolically, when he took those shirts home with him- to me that means Jack is with Ennis and makes me feel so much better about him not getting to spread the ashes on Brokeback.

This next part is hard for me because I don't think Ennis is to "blame" but his refusals built up in Jack in the form of depression (IMO) and after that last meeting I believe that the last shred of anything had truly died in Jack and he got reckless and that led to his death. In saying that it sounds like I hold Ennis responsible but I don't. I feel the judgemental society that existed (and still does) had the biggest hand in his death- his physical death at the hands of those that weilded those tire irons and in the emotional death of his dream always beyond his reach.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #4 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 04:41 AM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Aug 21, 2007, 07:49 PM

This is a tough question to answer. I think that Ennis's refusal to live with Jack stemmed mostly from his fears of the world, but I think his refusal was more "noble" in that he was not doing it to protect himself, rather he never wanted to see Jack dead in a ditch. I think upon finding out about Jack's death he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. As Thomas mentioned above, him going to LF to try to get the ashes was his way of trying to give one thing to Jack, to make one of his wishes come true. IMO, he did so, symbolically, when he took those shirts home with him- to me that means Jack is with Ennis and makes me feel so much better about him not getting to spread the ashes on Brokeback.

This next part is hard for me because I don't think Ennis is to "blame" but his refusals built up in Jack in the form of depression (IMO) and after that last meeting I believe that the last shred of anything had truly died in Jack and he got reckless and that led to his death. In saying that it sounds like I hold Ennis responsible but I don't. I feel the judgemental society that existed (and still does) had the biggest hand in his death- his physical death at the hands of those that weilded those tire irons and in the emotional death of his dream always beyond his reach.

I agree 100% with this LJN. Jack's depression over not being with Ennis led him to be almost self-destuctive with achohol abuse and promiscuous sex, but I suppose I could blame Ennis indirectly in his death.. Ennis is Ennis, Jack is Jack, both did what they had to do , what they knew to do, and yet, it is this narrow minded society we live in ( then and now) that is mostly at fault for how they dealt differently within the relationship.

Ennis, I feel did blame himself in the end when he found out about Jack's death. No doubt left with a world of what-if's and *If I'd only knowns* this or that. Probably even felt guilt at deserving Jack's love. (WWJW)? What would Jack wish of /for Ennis if after his death or before he died he could speak to him one last time? ,I think he say he loved him, cherished every moment, will always be with him and most importantly, don't deny yourself love and happiness.. When Ennis found the shirts, it was Jack saying those very words to him. No blame. MO

tpe · « **Reply #5 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 07:38 AM »

Like aintfoolin , I agree with what LJN had said.

lamusica · « **Reply #6 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 05:08 PM »

LJN, I agree with everything you say here. I'm one of those people who just find it nearly impossible to lay the blame card onto someone who cared as much about Jack as Ennis did. He would never have hurt him under any conditions. Now, if society got to him, that's not Ennis's fault. The depression part of your post is so right on. I think Jack was just careless -- maybe he didn't feel he really had anything to live for after that last altercation with Ennis.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #7 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 07:08 AM »

Then Ennis's love was the rock that Jack's love, like a wave, battered itself on. Jack suffered greatly because of it, but he still loved Ennis; Ennis suffered greatly and he still love Jack.

"Tire Irons" , "The Sweet Life" the fear and the dream, the two opposing forces, which was underlined their relationship. How could they face society as a unit, if they couldn't face yet, their own love fully, and completely? It left Jack broken. Ennis understanding way too late.

tpe · « **Reply #8 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 07:22 AM »

Would anyone here object if I say that I think Ennis FELT himself partly to blame (or perhaps entirely to blame) for Jack's death?

Perhaps he also felt that he did not warn Jack enough of the risks he was taking...

In any case, I think Ennis did feal remorse for not facing up fully to their love while Jack was alive. He probably felt that all his caution came to nothing, since with Jack's death, Ennis felt that he met a fate worse than death.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #9 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 11:25 AM »

I wouldn't object, Thomas. I think playing the "blame game" is a human reaction and I'm fairly certain we've had at least one experience with that in our own lives. I think he felt a lot of guilt after Jack was gone. I'm sure he went through their whole relationship and did the what if's etc. And that's exactly it- Ennis got a fate worse than death when Jack died. I also think that in retrospect he may have realized that that having that sweet life for 5 minutes would have been worth any risk. If he was with Jack he had a better shot of protecting him, if need be, than with them being so far apart. And I think the shirts provided tremendous comfort in that that was Jack's I love you from the grave but there's always that double edged sword in a sense. There was Jack when Ennis needed him and where was Ennis when Jack needed him? So I can see a serious case of the guilts and maybe self blame going on there, in that regard. I hope that made some sense.

proulxfan · « **Reply #10 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 09:19 PM »

I think all of the points mentioned above are valid, insightful interpretations. As far as Ennis's feeling he was responsible for Jack's death, it just adds one more excruciating layer to the tragedy; Jack's end represented the very thing Ennis feared most, and struggled so desperately to avoid. His terror of it can be seen to actually aid in bringing it about.

I feel I must add a couple of points here. I believe the film is structured in such a way as to lead the audience to the conclusion that Jack was in fact murdered. The ss I think is a bit more ambiguous in this respect, as references to the tire iron occur repeatedly in Ennis's thoughts, dreams and talk; thus it is possible to conclude that Ennis is projecting his fear onto Lureen's narrative. The film, interestingly, only mentions the tire iron once, when Ennis tells Jack about Earl and Rich.

In addition, I have noticed with respect to the film, that many people are convinced of Jack's murder by the flatness or seeming coldness of Lureen's recitation in her version of how Jack died. They take this as evidence that she is obviously lying or hiding the truth. From personal experience, I will note that after the sudden, tragic and almost freakish demise of my partner's brother in an accident a couple of years ago, the neccessity of repeating the unbelievable details to what felt like endless inquiries from well-meaning people as to how it had happened, led to some of us reciting the particulars in almost exactly the way that Lureen's character does in the film. It becomes just an overwhelmingly numbing experience. This steers me to the conclusion that her account is, just possibly, after all, accurate.

So...you pays your money and you takes your choice...

ragtimecowboy · « **Reply #11 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 11:04 PM »

I don't think Ennis should bear any of the blame. True, his failure to allow Jack to share his life on a day to basis was excriciatingly painful to both of them, Ennis was not the one who intiated any of the actions Jack took. Free will is the basis of every choice made in everyday life. Jack chose to go to Mexico and hook up with a hustler. Jack chose to set Ennis free, and take up with Randall. Jack chose to change the tire.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #12 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 06:04 AM »

How wonderful are the posts. It really had me thinking. I really see how we empathize with Ennis, we are reluctant to place any blame on him, but try to understand his point of view, his responsibility on what happened in the story of his and Jack's love.

We also talk of choices, interesting enough for me anyway, is that choices are laid more at Jack's doorstep. He chose to be on that lonely road, he chose to drink, he chose to pursue Ennis, he chose to go to Mexico, he chose to "take up" with Randall. He made "choices".

What about Reaction to Actions (or in this case lack of), all of the changes Jack went through from that first summer to the final confrontation was direct result of his love for Ennis. He loved Ennis, Jack was pure love, and that was all he wanted from Ennis. And all of what he did was a direct result of that love. Jack try to live a life with Ennis and apart from him, but couldn't quite get it right.

It reminds of what his father said in the ss, "like all of Jack ideas it never came to pass". How scary is it that his father nailed Jack's destiny.

chameau · « **Reply #13 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 04:41 PM »

Quote from: proulxfan on Aug 23, 2007, 09:19 PM

In addition, I have noticed with respect to the film, that many people are convinced of Jack's murder by the flatness or seeming coldness of Lureen's recitation in her version of how Jack died. They take this as evidence that she is obviously lying or hiding the truth. From personal experience, I will note that after the sudden, tragic and almost freakish demise of my partner's brother in an accident a couple of years ago, the neccessity of repeating the unbelievable details to what felt like endless inquiries from well-meaning people as to how it had happened, led to some of us reciting the particulars in almost exactly the way that Lureen's character does in the film. It becomes just an overwhelmingly numbing experience. This steers me to the conclusion that her account is, just possibly, after all, accurate.

So...you pays your money and you takes your choice...

I with you on this one proulxfan, my POV on Jack's death is the one as told by Lureen, the murder scene is in Ennis head. Ennis was convinced Jack was murdered but this is his own opinion. Should Ennis take some blame? No, I don't think so. He for sure feels guilty but like someone posted here it's kind of natural to take the blame over someone's accident or death. The tragedy here is Ennis realizing too late how Jack truly loved him but this is off topic.

Very interesting discussion here BTW.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #14 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 04:53 PM »

I feel Ennis learned a valuable lessen in to what Jack knew all along.: that they were safer together than apart. He had to have dealt regrettably with this scenario after Jack's death. They both were making alot of choices ,alot of them bad. Ennis never intentionally set out to hurt Jack in any way shape or form. He loved him.
Keeping in mind that Ennis was looking at this from safety pov, his story becomes clear. He feared the day when some jerk would come along to hurt Jack or himself if they were found out+Ennis had also sacrificed for this relationship, he was kicked out of a day to day life with his kids, quit jobs, refused better ones etc. all to keep seeing Jack 2 or 3 times a year for 20 years. I think he is due credit for what he did do through all his fears, not blame. Although we as veiwers saw better alternatives to their choices concerning this thing, and their lives did not ever quite come into perfect alignnment, they both dealt with this complicated situation in the best way they knew how to . IMO.

proulxfan · « **Reply #15 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 05:10 PM »

cham,

I don't think that really is off topic-though I have a slight problem in that area

-cuz that too-late-realization would only feed his feelings of guilt/responsibility around Jack's death.

ain'tfoolin,

good observations and nicely said.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #16 on:** Aug 26, 2007, 10:18 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Aug 24, 2007, 04:53 PM

I feel Ennis learned a valuable lessen in to what Jack knew all along.: that they were safer together than apart. He had to have dealt regrettably with this scenario after Jack's death. They both were making alot of choices ,alot of them bad. Ennis never intentionally set out to hurt Jack in any way shape or form. He loved him.
Keeping in mind that Ennis was looking at this from safety pov, his story becomes clear. He feared the day when some jerk would come along to hurt Jack or himself if they were found out+Ennis had also sacrificed for this relationship, he was kicked out of a day to day life with his kids, quit jobs, refused better ones etc. all to keep seeing Jack 2 or 3 times a year for 20 years. I think he is due credit for what he did do through all his fears, not blame. Although we as veiwers saw better alternatives to their choices concerning this thing, and their lives did not ever quite come into perfect alignnment, they both dealt with this complicated situation in the best way they knew how to . IMO.

This is right to point, and something Ennis couldn't understand. This is my own view in this part of the story: Ennis was more like his father than he knew. He loved Jack deeply, but this love was to him meant only bad things, not the good that Jack tried to tell him. So he fought off any attempts to live with Jack. Safety sake, yeah sure, that's a factor. But when Ennis hits Jack with "boys like you" he is still separating himself from who Jack was and he is .

When Jack dies, Ennis still couldn't separate from what actually happens to what he believes happens. There were still that space of doubt in him. And I think that what stays with him, remember this is man who lived with this fear all of his life with Jack. This what prevents him from ever getting off of Brokeback Mountain, and to think that a flat tire, and not a tire iron took his lover away is something I don't think he was ready to accept, will ever accept.

Jack's gone now, his journey is over, and Ennis learned how good their love was, and how true it was. Jack believed it, and always did, and showed it to Ennis in his bedroom. It's a wonder why Ennis didn't have a little more faith in Jack's love, that together they were stronger, because separately they sure made a mess of their lives, and "Rich and Earl" may not necessarily be their fate. Faith and fear I guess we saw what won.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #17 on:** Aug 26, 2007, 10:34 AM »

Great posts. I'm tearing up here. Ennis spent so much of his life trying to not be Earl that he became Rich. I guess there is a lesson in there too- if you live life focused on one thing you lose sight of the rest. I'm in the Jack was murdered "camp" I guess first impressions really are lasting ones. I can't shake that, despite the fact that an accident is so much easier to accept but at the end of the day Jack is gone and that is what I still have trouble accepting.

He loved Jack deeply, but this love was to him meant only bad things, not the good that Jack tried to tell him. Well said MG.

I agree with aintfoolin' as well- despite his fears Ennis still made every effort to meet Jack because he did love him. That's why I have trouble with "blaming" him. As I mentioned earlier. I think Ennis keeping Jack at bay was out of love not because he was a jerk. These lines from a Bruce song (Cautious Man) remind me so much of Ennis: On his right hand Billy tattooed the word love and on his left hand was the word fear
And in which hand he held his fate was never clear.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #18 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 05:32 AM »

IMO:

For me anyway, I not sure of what happen to Jack. But this if anything is a "cautionary tale". It shows what hate does, it show us what fear can do.

If Jack's death was a murder, a "gay bashing", then Ennis was right along, he had a reason to fear, after all he seen such things already when he was nine, then hate exist, end of story, (we know that it does exist, we seen it or was recipients of it).

But what does that hate, that fear does to a human being, how does control his life, influence him in the way he lives his life, and how it destroyed his life.

Ennis was a perfect messenger, through him, we saw what seeing hate as a boy can do a man, and because of it the hate of one self can grow. Ennis distant himself from the one true love of his life,and the painful struggle of that love which was life giving, life sustaining, and hopeful, and stifled because of fear. And in the end the death of his lover would always haunt him, the spoon in the can of beans that turned into tire irons. The manner of Jack's death is something Ennis would always be struggling with that image of Jack's dying in his mind, what was truth, and what was his reality, and what we can learn from it. My 2 cent.

welshwitch · « **Reply #19 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 11:21 AM »

It's also a lot easier to live someone else's life and decide what they should do/have done than it is to live one's own. Ennis does what he does because he's what he is and what his experience of life has made him - and of course there is no guarantee that even if he had committed to Jack and even if they had settled down together, they would have survived unscathed. There is hatred everywhere - one or the other or both of them could still have become victims of homophobic violence just as Ennis had always feared.

proulxfan · « **Reply #20 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 12:15 PM »

Quote from LuvJackNasty:

"These lines from a Bruce song (Cautious Man) remind me so much of Ennis: On his right hand Billy tattooed the word love and on his left hand was the word fear
And in which hand he held his fate was never clear. "

Not just those lines, but that whole song is so evocative of Ennis Del Mar and his struggle with his dilemna.

Ya had to go there didya?? :\'( :\'(

And now back to our regularly scheduled topic...

manhattangirl · « **Reply #21 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 06:53 PM »

Thanks AP for leaving that door to explore open. All are welcome.

tpe · « **Reply #22 on:** Aug 28, 2007, 07:22 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 27, 2007, 11:21 AM

It's also a lot easier to live someone else's life and decide what they should do/have done than it is to live one's own. Ennis does what he does because he's what he is and what his experience of life has made him - and of course there is no guarantee that even if he had committed to Jack and even if they had settled down together, they would have survived unscathed. There is hatred everywhere - one or the other or both of them could still have become victims of homophobic violence just as Ennis had always feared.

Perhaps the guilt of Ennis was more the guilt of not having taken that risk. He realized too late that life itself was a risk, and opportunities come and go, sometimes never to return.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #23 on:** Aug 29, 2007, 11:43 AM »

Of course,we must put the blame for Jack´s death on intolerance, hate and incomprehension,but sometimes there´s a kind of "ideological weapon"that is almost as responsible than these one who acts.In this sense,I agree that Ennis behaviour,pretending to protect Jack during half his life,was a way to separate him from his dreams at the end of his relationship,making him not to be as much on the guard as before and making him,at last,fall on what had been Ennis most dreared nightmare.This is,unfortunately,one of the many contradictions that life has...And Ennis was also during half his life a living contradiction,torn between his deepest and strongest feelings and his deepest and strongest fears.For this reason,I think his blame on Jack´s death is indirect, and of course,I also think he felt more guilty for not letting these feelings win in his inner battle when nothing could already be done.

tpe · « **Reply #24 on:** Aug 30, 2007, 07:53 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Aug 29, 2007, 11:43 AM

Of course,we must put the blame for Jack´s death on intolerance, hate and incomprehension,but sometimes there´s a kind of "ideological weapon"that is almost as responsible than these one who acts.In this sense,I agree that Ennis behaviour,pretending to protect Jack during half his life,was a way to separate him from his dreams at the end of his relationship,making him not to be as much on the guard as before and making him,at last,fall on what had been Ennis most dreared nightmare.This is,unfortunately,one of the many contradictions that life has...And Ennis was also during half his life a living contradiction,torn between his deepest and strongest feelings and his deepest and strongest fears.For this reason,I think his blame on Jack´s death is indirect, and of course,I also think he felt more guilty for not letting these feelings win in his inner battle when nothing could already be done.

MPJ, this is beautifully said. Thank you.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #25 on:** Aug 30, 2007, 12:33 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 30, 2007, 07:53 AM

MPJ, this is beautifully said. Thank you.

Don´t mention it.

brokeplex · « **Reply #26 on:** Sep 03, 2007, 11:32 AM »

Quote from: ragtimecowboy on Aug 23, 2007, 11:04 PM

I don't think Ennis should bear any of the blame. True, his failure to allow Jack to share his life on a day to basis was excriciatingly painful to both of them, Ennis was not the one who intiated any of the actions Jack took. Free will is the basis of every choice made in everyday life. Jack chose to go to Mexico and hook up with a hustler. Jack chose to set Ennis free, and take up with Randall. Jack chose to change the tire.

I agree with you Ragtime. Jack and Ennis made their choices. But, the range of their choices was severely limited because of the closets they lived in. Like many closeted Gay men, especially during the time that Jack and Ennis lived, Jack chose to look for love in a risky place, whether it was with the prostitute in Juarez or cruising on the side of the road in near Childress. In reference to an earlier post: we know that Jack was not killed by an exploding tire,or because he was "seeing Randall", he was probably trying to pick up the "wrong" men. Jack had a history of trying to pick up the "wrong" men, remember the scene when he tried to pick up the rodeo clown after the rodeo event in Electra. I think that Jack understood the danger and chose what he chose. Ennis also understood the danger and made his choices. One of the great things about BBM is that it shows how the choices in a Gay man's life in that time, and perhaps today as well, were sadly restricted.

brokeplex · « **Reply #27 on:** Sep 03, 2007, 11:43 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 16, 2007, 02:43 PM

I suppose both could have been targeted had they been living together. I suppose Jack could have been targeted because of Randall rather than Ennis. And there are homophobes everywhere, not just in Texas.

You are right Welshwitch, homophobia seems to be more or less universal. I disagree with you that Jack was targeted because of his relationship with Randall. Jack had a history of looking for sex in risky places. Remember the scene after the rodeo in Electra where Jack tries to pick up the Rodeo Clown....Jack was close to getting punched in the face at that moment. Gay men in that period ( 60's), in rural America, had few arenas available to them for sexual rendezvous. Almost any sexual venue available for Jack had a great deal of risk involved, except for Ennis and possible later Randall. Jack was a restless fellow and he undoubtedly cruised for sex from time to time. In his murder scene on the side of a Texas highway, I think that we can assume that Jack was attempting to pick up those guys who then beat him to death, possibly at a road side park. Texas has numerous roadside parks on major highways and rural county roads, it is commonly understood here in Texas that sex can be had at those roadside parks.

tpe · « **Reply #28 on:** Sep 04, 2007, 09:55 AM »

Welcome, brokeplex!

I think WW was saying that no matter who Jack ended up living with -- Randall or Ennis -- he could have been "targetted" all the same, as in the manner that Earl was targetted because he lived with another man. It was simply a matter of circumstances. Jack seemed to have been oblivious to the risks he was taking. Even with Ennis, he may have still very well exposed himself to such risks...

brokeplex · « **Reply #29 on:** Sep 09, 2007, 03:59 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Sep 04, 2007, 09:55 AM

Welcome, brokeplex!

I think WW was saying that no matter who Jack ended up living with -- Randall or Ennis -- he could have been "targetted" all the same, as in the manner that Earl was targetted because he lived with another man. It was simply a matter of circumstances. Jack seemed to have been oblivious to the risks he was taking. Even with Ennis, he may have still very well exposed himself to such risks...

TPE....Thanks for the welcome, I love the dialog. I agree with you that Jack was oblivious to the risks that he was taking, while Ennis was very well aware of how vulnerable he was. Had Jack and Ennis lived in close proximity but not with each other, they could have continued a relationship that would have been fairly safe for them, whether they were in Texas or Wyoming. But, Jack took extraordinary risks in his "cruising". That is what made Jack vulnerable.
This seems also to be a current events topic with the arrest and implosion of Senator Craig, Idaho.Craig could probably been a discrete bisexual and continued his hypocritical career in the Senate without being publicly outed. But, like Jack he needed risky situations. Suppose Ennis and Jack had lived in the same county in Wyoming. Let's suppose they had continued their relationship meeting once a week instead of twice a year. Does anyone think that Jack would not have on the sly tried for a little action at a roadside park or a bar or a restroom somewhere? I think that he would have looked for some exciting risky sex, and either Ennis would have found out and bashed Jack, or Jack would have been bashed by a homophobe that he tried to pick up.