Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[aintfoolin]

Hi AF!  

Yes, most of the things you said are OK. If you only let me add something - her eyes showed that she did not approved her father treat Jack so bad, but it was Texas 1970, what would we expect? Her father i dislike a lot, as well as Jack's!  Her mother -I don't even think about, she is there, but she as well doesn't have to be! The result is the same- with or without her! She has no impact on anything.

I agree that Jack contacted Ennis to give his life the meaning, but also I believe that Ennis was always on his mind. It was only the matter of time, not only of the situation when he was going to look for the love of his life!

Yes, Lureen didn't know a thing about the nature of their relationship, but she felt that ganeraly something was wrong. At the very moment Ennis told her about him and Jack herding sheep on Brokeback (Jack's most favorite place), SHE FIGURED IT OUT, it was more than obvious.

I am not saying that she is the best wife in the world, but surely Jack had his freedom to leave when ever he wanted. And we have to remember- he stayed with her all his (short :\'( ) life!

 

 When Jack spoke of her on at least 2 occaisions, he did not paint a picture of wedded bliss. He described her as a woman who had obviously found something to replace him as the center of her existence along with Bobby , their son. It's also obvious that Jack's heart just was'nt into the *perfect* little family life that he'd fallen into. Told Ennis that Newsome "hates my guts" and Lureen's adding machine was getting more attention than him. Needless to say , Jack was not impressed with the money or their lifestyle for he was willing to "take the money and run* so to speak. He was gonna leave  her if only Ennis said yes.

And yes, she defended him at Thanksgiving when Jack found himself having to go toe to  toe with Newsome  over the t.v. being on and something much deeper within Jack, and that's to her credit, but she does have a bit of a rebellious streak in her. It's obvious she married Jack against her father's wishes. Once she got him, again , the excitment of the pursuit quickly wore off. I agree, Jack never stopped loving Ennis no matter who he got with and I really don't know why he even got married in the first place. Could'nt  be for love, a sense of security? nah, maybe he married her because she was pregnant and felt he had to do the honorable thing. I read he wanted neither a wife nor kids. Just rambling...Thanx.

[vedrana]

When Jack spoke of her on at least 2 occaisions, he did not paint a picture of wedded bliss. He described her as a woman who had obviously found something to replace him as the center of her existence along with Bobby , their son. It's also obvious that Jack's heart just was'nt into the *perfect* little family life that he'd fallen into. Told Ennis that Newsome "hates my guts" and Lureen's adding machine was getting more attention than him. Needless to say , Jack was not impressed with the money or their lifestyle for he was willing to "take the money and run* so to speak. He was gonna leave  her if only Ennis said yes.

And yes, she defended him at Thanksgiving when Jack found himself having to go toe to  toe with Newsome  over the t.v. being on and something much deeper within Jack, and that's to her credit, but she does have a bit of a rebellious streak in her. It's obvious she married Jack against her father's wishes. Once she got him, again , the excitment of the pursuit quickly wore off. I agree, Jack never stopped loving Ennis no matter who he got with and I really don't know why he even got married in the first place. Could'nt  be for love, a sense of security? nah, maybe he married her because she was pregnant and felt he had to do the honorable thing. I read he wanted neither a wife nor kids. Just rambling...Thanx.

Yes, I do agree with you! 

I just think that the coldness in their relatioship wasn't only her fault, but also Jacks. And we all know why. 

I only resent her change so much after married, not loving Jack as much as he desperately needed. On the other hand, she wasn't that demanding either, so... hm.. I still like her!

 

[ksxks]

BM, I have to disagree about Lureen. 

All her life she just knew (as women do) that something was wrong, but she never put a pressure on Jack. He was leaving and coming home as he wanted. She was a little distant form Jack, but I strongly believe that Jack was HER MAN!

Just watch again the phone call with Ennis. She sighted when started to talk about Jack's death. She was not as cold as she looked like. When Ennis told her that he and Jack were herding sheep one summer 1963 on Brokeback mountain - the place Jack noted as her favorite place where he wants to be buried, she almost started to cry. She lived with Jack so many years, but still he had one summer hearding sheep mountain as his favorite place. I have a feeling that, at that very moment SHE KNEW!! She understood everything, and continued to talk with Ennis with anger, as Jack obviously loved Ennis more than her! She was deeply hurt, still remained proud. When she said to Ennis to go to LF, she was very bitter. At last she even hang-up on Ennis so unexpectedly.

So, I believe that always balancing between Jack, his strange trips and behaviour, and her father who obviously hated Jack, her job, and all the things she had to finish on the daily basis, was not easy at all. Still, she remained very permissive to Jack! He was free to do anything. And that's why I like her.

One other thing I'd like to poin out is Ennis's confession about the Brokeback mountain "mistery"! When he first in 1967 got the postcard from Jack, he did not want to tell Alma about Jack and BBM when she asked. In those days this was buried inside of him, and he didn't want to, or couldn't speak about BBM, even just "acceptable" parts. He felt his experience there so intensive that he was affraid to say a word about it!

Now, when Lureen mentioned Brokeback, he said very easily that Brokeback mountain is the place where he and jack were herding sheep one summer. That showes that Jack's death killed much more in him than anyone else or anything else could. Nothing was important any more. Jack died! Ennis was not affraid to speak about BBM, as nothing had meaning anymore! Dear Ennis!  :\'(

I agree with you about Lureen.

Also, very interesting what you say about Ennis not even dare mentioning the words Brokeback Mountain, or telling Alma about it being where he met Jack.  I see it not so much as it being buried inside him, as it being so precious to him that he wanted nothing to taint it, such as any reaction Alma might have if he told her.  Also, maybe being afraid he would reveal himself to her if he said those words that were so potent to him.  But you're so right about after Jack was gone, when he spoke with Lureen, that he said it right out -- "Me and Jack herded sheep there one summer."  He no longer had anything to lose.

I also thought it was very "brave" of him to speak of Jack as he did to Jack's parents.  I know that sometimes gay people can tend to keep things to themselves/ourselves because of being afraid that just mentioning someone's name or some place or whatever, will give away their secret.  Very sad.  The same things a straight guy might say and no one would think anything of it, Ennis felt like if he said those same things it would be like a big neon sign announcing he was queer.

But I just LOVED how he told Jack's parents, "Me and Jack was good friends..."   :\'(

kathy

[vedrana]

I agree with you about Lureen.

Also, very interesting what you say about Ennis not even dare mentioning the words Brokeback Mountain, or telling Alma about it being where he met Jack.  I see it not so much as it being buried inside him, as it being so precious to him that he wanted nothing to taint it, such as any reaction Alma might have if he told her.  Also, maybe being afraid he would reveal himself to her if he said those words that were so potent to him.  But you're so right about after Jack was gone, when he spoke with Lureen, that he said it right out -- "Me and Jack herded sheep there one summer."  He no longer had anything to lose.

I also thought it was very "brave" of him to speak of Jack as he did to Jack's parents.  I know that sometimes gay people can tend to keep things to themselves/ourselves because of being afraid that just mentioning someone's name or some place or whatever, will give away their secret.  Very sad.  The same things a straight guy might say and no one would think anything of it, Ennis felt like if he said those same things it would be like a big neon sign announcing he was queer.

But I just LOVED how he told Jack's parents, "Me and Jack was good friends..."   :\'(

kathy

Hi Kathy ,

Of course, you're right about 2 possible reasons for Ennis didn't mention anything about Brokeback - maybe even both - fear and/or cherishing the precious memory of beautiful days on Brokeback. :\'( Aren't we all the same - if something's so precious for us, we don't share with others so easily!

As for LF scene, I found it extremely uncomfortable. Even Mrs Twist's good will didn't ease the heaviness of stone in my chest.

But for LF scene stays the same as for Lureen - Ennis surpassed his fears completely. Even the nature of his relationship with Jack was more that obvious Jack's parents, he stood there and bravely finished his obligation to Jack. He even agreed to go to Jack's room and dared to ask Jack's shirt. Ennis was deliberated from his fears, but the price was too high - our dear Jack! :\'(

[BlueMountain]

 :\'( Jack's little cowboy toys... :\'( :\'( :\'( I cry so much when I watch that scene...

By the way, Did anyone else noticed the overly bright light in the Twist's family home? There was so much light... I think that means Jack is in heaven or something... At peace...

I loved Jack's mother... She was so strong...

[vedrana]

:\'( Jack's little cowboy toys... :\'( :\'( :\'( I cry so much when I watch that scene...

By the way, Did anyone else noticed the overly bright light in the Twist's family home? There was so much light... I think that means Jack is in heaven or something... At peace...

I loved Jack's mother... She was so strong...

BM, I've never thought about the light, but yes! That could be the sign of Jack's presence. 

The whole LF gives me the strong pain in my chest, but when Ennis found shirts..... :\'( :\'( :\'(  well that's KILLER. I'm sure that all the pain we feel about this love story would be bisected if there wasn't so strong bound which connects the whole movie together - the hugging shirts! I never expected that was coming and when I saw the shirts I was shattered. Still am!

But let's go back to the topic - one of the most disgusting scenes in the movie was the one with the clown - not defined completely as we don't know why clown had so humiliating behavior towards Jack, but we clearly see Jack's loneliness  and wish to find someone.. anyone. And he's being rudely rejected and ridiculed. For me who adore Jack with all his virtues and faults, that scene was so painful to watch! Especially as we saw Jack so depressed as he unsuccessfully fight in rodeo too, so all aspect of his life were miserable.

I go back to Lureen here - I think that according to circumstances she was the best thing at the moment that could happen to Jack!

 

[tpe]

I also thought it was very "brave" of him to speak of Jack as he did to Jack's parents.  I know that sometimes gay people can tend to keep things to themselves/ourselves because of being afraid that just mentioning someone's name or some place or whatever, will give away their secret.  Very sad.  The same things a straight guy might say and no one would think anything of it, Ennis felt like if he said those same things it would be like a big neon sign announcing he was queer.

But I just LOVED how he told Jack's parents, "Me and Jack was good friends..."   :\'(

kathy

For me, this too was another sign that Ennis was changing for the better.  I suspect that this would have been unthinkable for him to do when Jack was still alive.  So to have done it by himself, with all that emotional pain deep inside...

I think this is why I "dislike" this whole sequence of scenes.  You see Ennis trying to make amends and reach out, but is pushed back...

[hippiewannabe]

I didn't think it was even possible to "dislike" a scene in this jewel of a film.  But after watching it again last night, and doing a bit of research, I have a scene that I dislike, in that it is disturbing to watch it.  Of course, Jack's death is a killer.  But Ennis' fight outside the bar on Thanksgiving is so hard for me to watch, especially now - I read someplace that Heath wanted the other actor to get into a real physical fight.  So every grimace on his face is real - and it hurts so much to watch him in pain.   :\'(

[vedrana]

I didn't think it was even possible to "dislike" a scene in this jewel of a film.  But after watching it again last night, and doing a bit of research, I have a scene that I dislike, in that it is disturbing to watch it.  Of course, Jack's death is a killer.  But Ennis' fight outside the bar on Thanksgiving is so hard for me to watch, especially now - I read someplace that Heath wanted the other actor to get into a real physical fight.  So every grimace on his face is real - and it hurts so much to watch him in pain.   :\'(

The pain wasn't connected only with physical, obviously... in fact the least with physical. The pain was all over him - because of lost marriage, lost chances, distance from Jack and exposure from Alma in the cruelest possible way, that is at the time when he was her guest, vulnerable, alone, in anxious atmosphere of Monoroe's home. And when her reaction was completely meaningless!

I felt so sorry for him there! :\'(
 

[aintfoolin]

Great posts, I did'nt like it when Ennis tells Jack.." I heard what they got in Mexico for boys like you"    I cringed at this stinging indictment . What, after all this time?.....that was just Wrong. I think it was the last straw for Jack before he unleashed hell on Ennis.

[vedrana]

Great posts, I did'nt like it when Ennis tells Jack.." I heard what they got in Mexico for boys like you"    I cringed at this stinging indictment . What, after all this time?.....that was just Wrong. I think it was the last straw for Jack before he unleashed hell on Ennis.

I get the feeling that the question Ennis asked at that moment was something that he ALWAYS had on his mind, that he was just afraid to ask. He was stoic all his life and never ask for other man company (even not from a woman, but Cassie was difficult to avoid). Knowing Jack as the seducer and a man full of affection, surely Ennis suspected him.

When Jack persisted in his anger about so late meeting in November, and when he accused Ennis to waist their lives by refusing to live together, Ennis just brough it up. And the rest is a history...

Sad one, of course!  :\'(

[tpe]

I didn't think it was even possible to "dislike" a scene in this jewel of a film.  But after watching it again last night, and doing a bit of research, I have a scene that I dislike, in that it is disturbing to watch it.  Of course, Jack's death is a killer.  But Ennis' fight outside the bar on Thanksgiving is so hard for me to watch, especially now - I read someplace that Heath wanted the other actor to get into a real physical fight.  So every grimace on his face is real - and it hurts so much to watch him in pain.   :\'(

What makes that fight scene so moving is that the scene that follows it is one of absolute peace -- and quiet dissatisfaction.  The transition and the accompanying music in the following scene are so so beautiful.  What a contrast to the brutal fight scene, where Heath actually asked that the blows be real...

[tpe]

Great posts, I did'nt like it when Ennis tells Jack.." I heard what they got in Mexico for boys like you"    I cringed at this stinging indictment . What, after all this time?.....that was just Wrong. I think it was the last straw for Jack before he unleashed hell on Ennis.

I also don't like it because it showed so much contempt and condescension,  It shows probably the worst that Ennis was capable of doing.

[tpe]

I get the feeling that the question Ennis asked at that moment was something that he ALWAYS had on his mind, that he was just afraid to ask. He was stoic all his life and never ask for other man company (even not from a woman, but Cassie was difficult to avoid). Knowing Jack as the seducer and a man full of affection, surely Ennis suspected him.

When Jack persisted in his anger about so late meeting in November, and when he accused Ennis to waist their lives by refusing to live together, Ennis just brough it up. And the rest is a history...

Sad one, of course!  :\'(

Agreed.  I have said elsewhere that Ennis seemed to have read Jack's coded references to his comings and goings, and my feeling was that in the LC, Ennis was just itching to tell Jack what he knew.  I really think that at that moment, there was a very real intention to hurt.  WE can't blame Ennis entirely, but it is hard to watch this upleasant side of him, in any case.

[hippiewannabe]

What makes that fight scene so moving is that the scene that follows it is one of absolute peace -- and quiet dissatisfaction.  The transition and the accompanying music in the following scene are so so beautiful.  What a contrast to the brutal fight scene, where Heath actually asked that the blows be real...

You are so right, TPE!  I find myself actually breathing a sigh of relief when that lovely music and mountain scene come on.  Of course, you know me - the mountains are Ennis & Jack's (and my) happy place.  Then Jack and Ennis get into their argument about Ennis' moving to Texas and I get deflated again. 

[vedrana]

What makes that fight scene so moving is that the scene that follows it is one of absolute peace -- and quiet dissatisfaction.  The transition and the accompanying music in the following scene are so so beautiful.  What a contrast to the brutal fight scene, where Heath actually asked that the blows be real...

I'm glad you brought it up - contrast - isn't the whole BBM about the contrasts?

- Lovely days on Brokaback in 1963, and the rest of the movie

- Their meetings on beautiful mountains and the claustrophobic life in Wyoming

- After being with Jack who's so strong, masculine, open minded, easy going.. Ennis ends up with Alma, who is (obviously on purpose) so tiny, small, gentle, simple, closed ... so inadequate for Ennis after he "tasted" Jack (well at least I feel that way..)

- Ennis and Jack - this is the basic contrast of the movie, starting from their appearance to their characters and behaviour

- wealth in Texas and the poverty in Wyoming

- Alma and Lureen, totally different from each other...


OK, this was OT, but I just linked to previous post.

PS: Can we get a "blushing smile" - I already needed it so many times.... 

[tpe]

You are so right, TPE!  I find myself actually breathing a sigh of relief when that lovely music and mountain scene come on.  Of course, you know me - the mountains are Ennis & Jack's (and my) happy place.  Then Jack and Ennis get into their argument about Ennis' moving to Texas and I get deflated again. 

Quite frankly, I always find myself almost in tears when I see the transition.

[tpe]

I'm glad you brought it up - contrast - isn't the whole BBM about the contrasts?

- Lovely days on Brokaback in 1963, and the rest of the movie

- Their meetings on beautiful mountains and the claustrophobic life in Wyoming

- After being with Jack who's so strong, masculine, open minded, easy going.. Ennis ends up with Alma, who is (obviously on purpose) so tiny, small, gentle, simple, closed ... so inadequate for Ennis after he "tasted" Jack (well at least I feel that way..)

- Ennis and Jack - this is the basic contrast of the movie, starting from their appearance to their characters and behaviour

- wealth in Texas and the poverty in Wyoming

- Alma and Lureen, totally different from each other...


OK, this was OT, but I just linked to previous post.

PS: Can we get a "blushing smile" - I already needed it so many times.... 

Yes, it is a film rich in "bookends" and contrasts.  I think some of the contrasts are very hard to watch, as is the fight scene in question paired with the succeeding scene up in the mountains.

Speaking of contast between poor and wealthy, did you find any of the squalid Riverton scenes unpleasant to watch?  personally, the scene where Ennis comes home to the ranch (the one with the babies crying) is a bit jarring to watch, because of the poverty and the seeming chaos...

[BlueMountain]

Yes, it is a film rich in "bookends" and contrasts.  I think some of the contrasts are very hard to watch, as is the fight scene in question paired with the succeeding scene up in the mountains.

Speaking of contast between poor and wealthy, did you find any of the squalid Riverton scenes unpleasant to watch?  personally, the scene where Ennis comes home to the ranch (the one with the babies crying) is a bit jarring to watch, because of the poverty and the seeming chaos...

Yeah, I hated the atmosphere when Ennis comes back to the ranch and the baby was crying and it was just hectic...

[tpe]

Yeah, I hated the atmosphere when Ennis comes back to the ranch and the baby was crying and it was just hectic...

And squalid, to be sure.  THere is something dignified about honest poverty.  But the reality can also be quite unpleasant to watch.

[vedrana]

Quite frankly, I always find myself almost in tears when I see the transition.

Me too!

And so touching music doesn't help at all ...  :\'(

[vedrana]

Speaking of Riverton... and I know that many of you will disagree, but the scene with Alma on the bad, before they started to kiss is very nauseous for me.

I didn't like the moment when Ennis is exhausted after a job and kids. Finally when finish everything, he needed some rest and comfort, he sat on the bad, and then Alma "attacked" him - simultaneously caressing and persueding him to move to town. With so low but assertive voice she continued to be tender in touch, but so persistent in her words. After this ordeal I felt jaded, and I can imagine how bad Ennis felt.


OK, he revenged pretty quickly  , but nevertheless she shouldn't have put so much pressure to him in that moment and in that way, IMO.

[tpe]

Me too!

And so touching music doesn't help at all ...  :\'(

The music is a large part of it.  It mitigates the unpleasantness of the preceding fight scene.  The transition provides a sort of release, after all the unpleasant emotions unleashed in the Thanksgiving and fight scenes...

[tpe]

Speaking of Riverton... and I know that many of you will disagree, but the scene with Alma on the bad, before they started to kiss is very nauseous for me.

I didn't like the moment when Ennis is exhausted after a job and kids. Finally when finish everything, he needed some rest and comfort, he sat on the bad, and then Alma "attacked" him - simultaneously caressing and persueding him to move to town. With so low but assertive voice she continued to be tender in touch, but so persistent in her words. After this ordeal I felt jaded, and I can imagine how bad Ennis felt.


OK, he revenged pretty quickly  , but nevertheless she shouldn't have put so much pressure to him in that moment and in that way, IMO.

   Sorry for this reaction, loreen, but "attack" is quite a strong word.    You might be surprised to know that a number of members had also previously voiced some dislike for this very scene...

[vedrana]

  Sorry for this reaction, loreen, but "attack" is quite a strong word.    You might be surprised to know that a number of members had also previously voiced some dislike for this very scene...

  That's why I used ".. " marks (don't know the word for it) to soften the word. But IMO it was an attack! I always resented that kind of behaviour and here is a shoolbook example of "attacking husband".

Well, I am new here and had no idea that others disliked this scene too. I expected a great deal of disapproval, but now am surprised. Obviously others saw the same negative message from the scene. 

Alma saw Jack and Ennis kissing and kept silence for almost 20 years and finally attacks Ennis is the most inappropriate situation, when their marriage was over and he was her guest!!! I don't like that. She had so many chances to clarify the situation, so many years to react. If she knew, and obviously she did, she could've just accept it or not. Not to hold that against Ennis for 20 years and making him more lonely and depressed than he already was. That was not fair also!

IMO she should have made things clear in the right time, place and manner. When one's words make no difference, then it's only a revenge...

Hm... someone would think that I kind of dislike Alma..   

[vedrana]

On the second thought, maybe Alma's  behaviour is also emphasized on purpose to make Ennis's life out of the meetings with Jack even more meaningless and empty. Alma happened to be the best tool for doing his life miserbale... uh, always is the wife's fault!

And I successfully forgot how miserable Alma's life was... 

[tpe]

The probnlem with Alma is that she allowed things to go for so long -- as if what Ennis and Jack did had her tacit, but unwilling, approval.  Granted, she probably felt that it was not in her interest to put all of this out in the open (at least between them), but her increasing bitterness made her a less sympathetic character as time went on. 

It is her bitterness in the later scenes that I found most unpleasant.  I feel a bit guilty, I must admit, because she is probably more deserving of sympathy.

[BlueMountain]

The probnlem with Alma is that she allowed things to go for so long -- as if what Ennis and Jack did had her tacit, but unwilling, approval.  Granted, she probably felt that it was not in her interest to put all of this out in the open (at least between them), but her increasing bitterness made her a less sympathetic character as time went on. 

It is her bitterness in the later scenes that I found most unpleasant.  I feel a bit guilty, I must admit, because she is probably more deserving of sympathy.

I think it was really hard for her to try to forget about what she saw and just kept a grudge for all those years... But what's strange is that she didnt even mention it once! But I did feel sorry for her when she was asking  Ennis if Jack could come inside for coffie or anything and he was just in a hurry to leave and when she asked for a packet of "smokes" Ennis just yelled out where they were and ran off... That's why I had some sympathy for Alma... She was just the innocent one who didnt really do anything until she brought up Jake in the Thanksgiving scene...

[vedrana]

I think it was really hard for her to try to forget about what she saw and just kept a grudge for all those years... But what's strange is that she didnt even mention it once! But I did feel sorry for her when she was asking Ennis for coffie or anything and he was just in a hurry to leave and when she asked for a packet of "smokes" Ennis just yelled out where they were and ran off... That's why I had some sympathy for Alma... She was just the innocent one who didnt really do anything until she brought up Jake in the Thanksgiving scene...

I suppose that you meant Jack, not Jake !

[BlueMountain]

I suppose that you meant Jack, not Jake !

Oh yea! I'm so obessed with Jake that I dont even realise I'm confusing him with Jack!