Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[vedrana]

A relatively pessimistic POV, but certainly has more than a bit of truth.

I personally tend to think that people simply become more comfortable with each other as time goes on (or not), and this replaces passionate/romantic love.

Sure. I don't think that one excludes the other. Love changes shape, but it can not develop and endure if the image that we created shows up to be completely wrong one. We have to have at least a part of the man/woman we dreamt about.

The image Alma created about Ennis was not wrong, but Ennis was not right. He also didn't know at the beginning that their relationship would go terribly wrong. I believe that if he knew it, he would've never marry Alma.

And here I agree with LNJ:

I agree, it is unpleasant but she had every reason to devalue him - actually she didn't need to do that - he did that on his own when he broke his vows. And again, I don't think he ever intentionally hurt her, although by not considering the impact of his actions on her he was, in effect, devaluing her long before she began to lose faith in him. There are a lot of dynamics in place there, resulting in Alma feeling the way she did.

Her love for Monroe..  ... I just can see love there. She came bitter, disappointed, from the marriage she wasn' t respected at in full. Monroe was always so understanding to her, so nice to her and kids... The circumstances show me that her marriage with Monroe is not the result of love. And Monroe was ( I believe deliberately) shown not as the most attractive man on the Earth.That's also a clue. I can't see no real love, real feelings form Alma there. Real home, real money, house, peace, security... but love in it's magic, IMO no!

Scene on Thanksgiving day at the table was extremely unpleasant cos Alma was striking and rolling with her eyes, and I just can't understand why did she ever invite Ennis for dinner? It was obvious that Ennis is very uncomfortable too. Finally the kitchen scene was the culmination of displeasure and we know the rest. Ennis ends up beaten.

Why do you think they invited him for a dinner? Because of the girls or they just felt sorry for him?

[aintfoolin]

I wondered this at first too. Why was Ennis there? I believe he was there because the girls wanted him to come, not so much Alma and Monroe. Just because he was divorced from Alma, did
nt mean that Ennis divorced the girls from his life though. He felt very close to them.  To them, he was just  "Daddy", and  they did'nt want to think of him alone on Thanksgiving.

I think Monroe got some insight into the marriage when Ennis just dropped the girls off on Alma at work. It also showed the " devaluing"  of her role in the marriage. Monroe was right there for Alma when the Alma Jr. knocked over the peanut display. Maybe he heard part of their conversation or thought Ennis physically abusive.  Ennis's disregard for her, she gravitated towards Monroe. But love him? no.  IMO ,Not like she loved Ennis.

Alma had alot of built up anger inside  that Ennis could not be honest with her.  Years. The conversation  about Ennis"s  rodeo days again, reminded her of why she and Ennis were not together...Jack. Anger particularly aimed at "Jack Nasty" and Ennis continuing to lie to her about him and about how he'd stiill be with him. "Once burned" , somehow insinuating she had some major contribution to the breakdown of the marriage did not endear her to Ennis at all. I agree, that she still loved Ennis, but Ennis had been "taken" or "stolen"  by Jack. She had held it in for so long , feeling helpless to defend her anger. Maybe she could "let go" after letting him know she knew. Maybe she felt relieved after that..MO

[ksxks]

Great discussion about this.  I like your idea, aintfoolin, about how Alma could finally say to Ennis what was pent up for so long, and could then let go of it.  I can see it could have been a relief to her, as you said.

I wonder what Monroe knew or didn't know about Ennis.

I always thought Ennis was invited to Thanksgiving just because of what she said, "the girls and I worry about you..."

As to Monroe, I do see a love there.  Not a hot first-love like she had with Ennis, but love still.  I'm sure there were some sweet sparks in the beginning, as they worked in the store together.  She loved him for loving her, not just because he provided security.  He probably was very genuine in his trying to make things all nice for her, etc.  Sweet but plain guy, in a relatively small life, who would consider Alma a very nice "catch" to build a home and life with.

And was it you, loreen, who mentioned how in the kitchen scene, it could be seen that she directs her anger at Jack Nasty, less than at Ennis, as if it was Jack's fault?  Interesting.  Or else "Jack Nasty" was just TOO good a line not to use!

kathy

[tpe]

Sure. I don't think that one excludes the other. Love changes shape, but it can not develop and endure if the image that we created shows up to be completely wrong one. We have to have at least a part of the man/woman we dreamt about.

The image Alma created about Ennis was not wrong, but Ennis was not right. He also didn't know at the beginning that their relationship would go terribly wrong. I believe that if he knew it, he would've never marry Alma.

This is true, in that one doers not exclude the other, and that Ennis had no idea that things would go wrong.  I really think he thought that he knew his own heart, and it was this misunderstanding that lead to all the unpleasantness with Alma in the years to come.

[tpe]

I wondered this at first too. Why was Ennis there? I believe he was there because the girls wanted him to come, not so much Alma and Monroe. Just because he was divorced from Alma, did
nt mean that Ennis divorced the girls from his life though. He felt very close to them.  To them, he was just  "Daddy", and  they did'nt want to think of him alone on Thanksgiving.

This is true, but I somehow think he could have gone much futher even as a divorced father.  His unwillingness to commit any further is shown in his refusal to take in Alma Jr. simply because of work.  Yes, he felt and remained close tp them, but he also kept them apart, if only because of his fears and because he thought that it would be better for them this way.  This lack of better judgement was well-intentioned, perhaps, but he could have done much much more as a father.

I think Monroe got some insight into the marriage when Ennis just dropped the girls off on Alma at work. It also showed the " devaluing"  of her role in the marriage. Monroe was right there for Alma when the Alma Jr. knocked over the peanut display. Maybe he heard part of their conversation or thought Ennis physically abusive.  Ennis's disregard for her, she gravitated towards Monroe. But love him? no.  IMO ,Not like she loved Ennis.

Personally, I felt that this was not a devaluation in a strict sense.  It was probably what husbands expected at that time and in that part of the world.  I would even think that Monroe would have approved Ennis's insistence, rather than look at his action as a devaluation.  He probably thought that that was the way things had to be -- and his show of consideration to Alma may also have shown that he understood that she had to do this, in their own world view of how husbands and wives should behave.
 

Alma had alot of built up anger inside  that Ennis could not be honest with her.  Years. The conversation  about Ennis"s  rodeo days again, reminded her of why she and Ennis were not together...Jack. Anger particularly aimed at "Jack Nasty" and Ennis continuing to lie to her about him and about how he'd stiill be with him. "Once burned" , somehow insinuating she had some major contribution to the breakdown of the marriage did not endear her to Ennis at all. I agree, that she still loved Ennis, but Ennis had been "taken" or "stolen"  by Jack. She had held it in for so long , feeling helpless to defend her anger. Maybe she could "let go" after letting him know she knew. Maybe she felt relieved after that..MO

I do agree that she must have thought in these terms: that Jack stole her husband.  Because of this, there would be no understanding between her and Jack.  And yes, I think she was really itching to "let go", if only to purge herself of the bitterness deep inside.

[tpe]

Great discussion about this.  I like your idea, aintfoolin, about how Alma could finally say to Ennis what was pent up for so long, and could then let go of it.  I can see it could have been a relief to her, as you said.

I wonder what Monroe knew or didn't know about Ennis.

I always thought Ennis was invited to Thanksgiving just because of what she said, "the girls and I worry about you..."

Good point.  And quite possible.  I had not thought of it this way.

As to Monroe, I do see a love there.  Not a hot first-love like she had with Ennis, but love still.  I'm sure there were some sweet sparks in the beginning, as they worked in the store together.  She loved him for loving her, not just because he provided security.  He probably was very genuine in his trying to make things all nice for her, etc.  Sweet but plain guy, in a relatively small life, who would consider Alma a very nice "catch" to build a home and life with.

Same here.

And was it you, loreen, who mentioned how in the kitchen scene, it could be seen that she directs her anger at Jack Nasty, less than at Ennis, as if it was Jack's fault?  Interesting.  Or else "Jack Nasty" was just TOO good a line not to use!

kathy

I felt that she blamed both of them in that scene.  But you are probably right that Alma viewed Jack as the instigator -- the tempter.  This most unpleasant of scenes is made even more unpleasant by the injection of Jack into the midst of it all.  He is the invisible combatant in that fight/confrontation.

[vedrana]

I wonder what Monroe knew or didn't know about Ennis.

I always thought Ennis was invited to Thanksgiving just because of what she said, "the girls and I worry about you..."

And was it you, loreen, who mentioned how in the kitchen scene, it could be seen that she directs her anger at Jack Nasty, less than at Ennis, as if it was Jack's fault?  Interesting.  Or else "Jack Nasty" was just TOO good a line not to use!

kathy

First, good point here -what Monroe knew about Ennis? All? Was Alma capable to speak out about her worst humiliation to her new husband? i don't think so, but again we can't be sure.

I think that "the girls and I worry about you" was an overture for her attack, more than an explanation for inviting him. Especially cos I don't believe that Alma was worried about him at all.

Finally, Kathy I think it was AF who said that, but I am also not sure. Anyway, that was good point - transferring the guilt to the person we're not emotionally attached to.

[vedrana]

This is true, in that one doers not exclude the other, and that Ennis had no idea that things would go wrong.  I really think he thought that he knew his own heart, and it was this misunderstanding that lead to all the unpleasantness with Alma in the years to come.

Yes, tpe! And here we come again to falling in love with someone image - Alma fell in love with an image that she had about Ennis, but at the time - Ennis had a same image about himself. Later, they both proved to be wrong!

What I want to say is that sometimes we don't even know our own soul and who we are, not to mention others. Acceptance of faults and sacrifice in the terms of tolerate them is something that we can chose to embrace or to refuse wheather is about us or people we loved. I think that Alma and Ennis failed there. They both refuse to accept the wrong image of Ennis, which lead them to an anxious and unpleasant divorce and bitter relationship afterwards.

[tpe]

Yes, tpe! And here we come again to falling in love with someone image - Alma fell in love with an image that she had about Ennis, but at the time - Ennis had a same image about himself. Later, they both proved to be wrong!

What I want to say is that sometimes we don't even know our own soul and who we are, not to mention others. Acceptance of faults and sacrifice in the terms of tolerate them is something that we can chose to embrace or to refuse wheather is about us or people we loved. I think that Alma and Ennis failed there. They both refuse to accept the wrong image of Ennis, which lead them to an anxious and unpleasant divorce and bitter relationship afterwards.

I think Alma had a great deal to do with how Ennis perceived himself.  After all, she had society and convention by her side to aid her with this.

I think that for most of us self identity needs some kind of affirmation outside ourselves.  Very rarely do we find people who have the strength to affirm their identity without reference to those around them.  This is the power of societal pressure.  They make relative truths seem absolute.

[FlwrChild]

Yes, tpe! And here we come again to falling in love with someone image - Alma fell in love with an image that she had about Ennis, but at the time - Ennis had a same image about himself. Later, they both proved to be wrong!

What I want to say is that sometimes we don't even know our own soul and who we are, not to mention others. Acceptance of faults and sacrifice in the terms of tolerate them is something that we can chose to embrace or to refuse wheather is about us or people we loved. I think that Alma and Ennis failed there. They both refuse to accept the wrong image of Ennis, which lead them to an anxious and unpleasant divorce and bitter relationship afterwards.

I like the way you put that - that Ennis has the same wrong image of himself in the beginning that Alma has. It was the idea of who they both believed and hoped he could be. That he was unable to be that person for either of them was disappointing to both of them.

I do think that Alma did all that she could with what she had though. Making a home for them to the best of her ability with limited resources, putting aside what she saw in the reunion scene to try to make their marriage work, making affectionate overtures (while at the same time testing her suspicions) with her notes in the tackle box, etc. When she finally felt that he would never make an effort to pursue better jobs to provide for them better and that he was never going to stop meeting up with Jack, she saw the writing on the wall and decided that she couldn’t live that way anymore. All those years of trying to adapt to the Ennis that she got as opposed to the Ennis that she thought she was getting didn’t accomplish her goal - he was simply incapable of giving himself to her and too wrapped up in his fears and unhappiness to see how she was being affected by it. That slow corrosion that worked between them was a natural effect of the circumstances they both found themselves in.

[vedrana]

I think Alma had a great deal to do with how Ennis perceived himself.  After all, she had society and convention by her side to aid her with this.

I think that for most of us self identity needs some kind of affirmation outside ourselves.  Very rarely do we find people who have the strength to affirm their identity without reference to those around them.  This is the power of societal pressure.  They make relative truths seem absolute.

Hm...  a normal life with Alma was something that was meant to be before Jack. If not, who knows! Maybe Jack would have more chances... What I want to say is that Alma IMO didn't have a bare impact on Ennis even later when they had their "normal life". I even don't see her as a package of the socielty. I see her isloated from the society in the same way Ennis was. But they were definitely under the social pressure.

[vedrana]

I like the way you put that - that Ennis has the same wrong image of himself in the beginning that Alma has. It was the idea of who they both believed and hoped he could be. That he was unable to be that person for either of them was disappointing to both of them.

I do think that Alma did all that she could with what she had though. Making a home for them to the best of her ability with limited resources, putting aside what she saw in the reunion scene to try to make their marriage work, making affectionate overtures (while at the same time testing her suspicions) with her notes in the tackle box, etc. When she finally felt that he would never make an effort to pursue better jobs to provide for them better and that he was never going to stop meeting up with Jack, she saw the writing on the wall and decided that she couldn’t live that way anymore. All those years of trying to adapt to the Ennis that she got as opposed to the Ennis that she thought she was getting didn’t accomplish her goal - he was simply incapable of giving himself to her and too wrapped up in his fears and unhappiness to see how she was being affected by it. That slow corrosion that worked between them was a natural effect of the circumstances they both found themselves in.

I believe that I often perceive their situation through my own glasses. I don't belong to their time or world, and some things are very difficult for me to understand. Maybe I am too harsh to Alma sometimes, cos one way or the other she is the victim. The way she manage everything was the way I would surely avoid myself, but Alma's situation is too far away from mine. She obviously tried to accept Ennis' relationship with Jack, but she failed at last.


Last time when we see Alma smiling was before Jack arrived and she asked Ennis about hiring a babysitter and bring Jack to "Knife&fork". After that she didn't smile again. She had been through a really hard times. In a way she was a lot like Ennis -holding things inside and suffer silently. Bad choice IMO, but she knew for nothing else!

[tpe]

Hm...  a normal life with Alma was something that was meant to be before Jack. If not, who knows! Maybe Jack would have more chances... What I want to say is that Alma IMO didn't have a bare impact on Ennis even later when they had their "normal life". I even don't see her as a package of the socielty. I see her isloated from the society in the same way Ennis was. But they were definitely under the social pressure.

For me, she stood for what society at large expected of Ennis -- to be a good huband to Alma and a dutiful father to their children.  It was a society that would never approve of his relationship with Jack.  And Alma's disapproval over their relationship perfectly mirrors that disapproval.

[vedrana]

For me, she stood for what society at large expected of Ennis -- to be a good huband to Alma and a dutiful father to their children.  It was a society that would never approve of his relationship with Jack.  And Alma's disapproval over their relationship perfectly mirrors that disapproval.

I agree. She was a part of that society and it's rules, but we saw her as an isloated unit. The same as Ennis.

What I want to say is that we only see the impact of the society, but not the direct relationship. We see much more of that in Jack's case.

[tpe]

I agree. She was a part of that society and it's rules, but we saw her as an isloated unit. The same as Ennis.

What I want to say is that we only see the impact of the society, but not the direct relationship. We see much more of that in Jack's case.

Jack took more risks, shall we say.  He definitely exposed himself to some danger, and that is what makes the scene with the Rodeo clown so unpleasant.

[vedrana]

Jack took more risks, shall we say.  He definitely exposed himself to some danger, and that is what makes the scene with the Rodeo clown so unpleasant.

I found each scene where Jack was humiliated or ignored, ridiculed, disappointed... to be extremely unpleasant.  Why Jack touched me so deep I don't know, but he did, and I can't stand any kind of harassment Jack!   :\'(

[tpe]

I found each scene where Jack was humiliated or ignored, ridiculed, disappointed... to be extremely unpleasant.  Why Jack touched me so deep I don't know, but he did, and I can't stand any kind of harassment Jack!   :\'(

I think he touches us because we see how quietly he handles each humiliation, and picks himself right back up.  Unpleasant though these scenes may be, you cannot help but admire Jack's patience and sense of self-worth.

[vedrana]

I think he touches us because we see how quietly he handles each humiliation, and picks himself right back up.  Unpleasant though these scenes may be, you cannot help but admire Jack's patience and sense of self-worth.

Yes, especially cos we know how iniquitous life had been to him, starting from childhood to his cruel death. And all this time he kept his goodness and kindness, losing nothing of his humanity.

He danced with LaShawn who was so tiresome, and he looked so interested in her stupid talking, making her (who was very boring person), comfortable about herself. Oh Jack! He's the man!

OK, this was off topic! 

[tpe]

Yes, especially cos we know how iniquitous life had been to him, starting from childhood to his cruel death. And all this time he kept his goodness and kindness, losing nothing of his humanity.

He danced with LaShawn who was so tiresome, and he looked so interested in her stupid talking, making her (who was very boring person), comfortable about herself. Oh Jack! He's the man!

OK, this was off topic! 

To be sure, Jack was gracious and charming when he wanted to be seen as such. 

Most unpleasant was to see his father (in the LF scenes) belittel his son -- or so I have interpreted some of his words to Ennis.  The humiliation and aspersions didn't end in death...

[myprivatejack]

To be sure, Jack was gracious and charming when he wanted to be seen as such. 

Most unpleasant was to see his father (in the LF scenes) belittel his son -- or so I have interpreted some of his words to Ennis.  The humiliation and aspersions didn't end in death...

Yes,but not only OMT is unpleasant there,but all LF scenes also.The only good point during them is the complicity and mutual affection that is created between Mrs. Twist and Ennis,the only thing that "saves" us for a rather disgusting view.And,of course,Jack's father "had" to humiliate his dead son because he knew-or suspected-what kind of relationship there had been between he and this man he had before;it's kind of destroying his son's image before his lover's eyes at the same than he humiliates and saddens Ennis for being who he is...

[vedrana]

Yes,but not only OMT is unpleasant there,but all LF scenes also.The only good point during them is the complicity and mutual affection that is created between Mrs. Twist and Ennis,the only thing that "saves" us for a rather disgusting view.And,of course,Jack's father "had" to humiliate his dead son because he knew-or suspected-what kind of relationship there had been between he and this man he had before;it's kind of destroying his son's image before his lover's eyes at the same than he humiliates and saddens Ennis for being who he is...

LF scene is definitely the most unpleasant scene of the movie, but IMO that is because Jack's dead and we have nothing to hope for. Anyway, old goat John Twist didn't succeeded in his wish to humiliate Ennis. Not even a bit! Ennis was so proud, even vulnerable. My heart there bleeds for Jack, for not being respected by his own father even after dead.  :\'(

[vedrana]

To be sure, Jack was gracious and charming when he wanted to be seen as such. 

Most unpleasant was to see his father (in the LF scenes) belittel his son -- or so I have interpreted some of his words to Ennis.  The humiliation and aspersions didn't end in death...

Jack was always gracious and charming!

[tpe]

Jack was always gracious and charming!

Which is what made the Last Confrontation so hard to watch -- because it is so against the grain of the Jack we have come to know and love.

[vedrana]

Which is what made the Last Confrontation so hard to watch -- because it is so against the grain of the Jack we have come to know and love.

Don't we all have our limits? Jack's were very high, so high that he endured 17 years of rejection, solitude, struggle with Ennis' fears, LD, his family situation etc.etc. without losing his capability to love and to sympathize with others.

He was angry during FC, but still showed to be vulnerable and tender to the end. 

[myprivatejack]

Don't we all have our limits? Jack's were very high, so high that he endured 17 years of rejection, solitude, struggle with Ennis' fears, LD, his family situation etc.etc. without losing his capability to love and to sympathize with others.

He was angry during FC, but still showed to be vulnerable and tender to the end. 

Of course,Jack's capacity of love is one of his qualities we appreciate the most and what makes us love him so much.   It's a too heavy burden for someone to stand during half his life as not exploding at the end,specially by seeing his lover is not able to understand his reasons.But the old dear Jack of always appears again with all his tenderness by forgetting all his sorrows when Ennis discovers his vulnerability too. And,specially,when he says in few words-being Ennis,what else?...-that he really loves him and needs him,it's when he runs to comfort him,being firstly Ennis and after himself...

[tpe]

Don't we all have our limits? Jack's were very high, so high that he endured 17 years of rejection, solitude, struggle with Ennis' fears, LD, his family situation etc.etc. without losing his capability to love and to sympathize with others.

He was angry during FC, but still showed to be vulnerable and tender to the end. 

Of course,Jack's capacity of love is one of his qualities we appreciate the most and what makes us love him so much.   It's a too heavy burden for someone to stand during half his life as not exploding at the end,specially by seeing his lover is not able to understand his reasons.But the old dear Jack of always appears again with all his tenderness by forgetting all his sorrows when Ennis discovers his vulnerability too. And,specially,when he says in few words-being Ennis,what else?...-that he really loves him and needs him,it's when he runs to comfort him,being firstly Ennis and after himself...

He was, indeed.  I also think that he was still angry as he hugged Ennis and said "Damn you, Ennis!"  The fact that he couldn't help but love Ennis didn't negate the fact that Ennis didn't make it any easier...
 

[vedrana]

He was, indeed.  I also think that he was still angry as he hugged Ennis and said "Damn you, Ennis!"  The fact that he couldn't help but love Ennis didn't negate the fact that Ennis didn't make it any easier...
 

Ennis surely didn't make it any easier, but was Jack really only angry at the end... I am not so sure. Maybe resignated, maybe disappointed, hurt, sad, but I think that he couldn't keep his anger towards Ennis so long. His Love for Ennis was too big and too deep and it always scattered his anger. Too much love in that big heart of Jack's!

[tpe]

Ennis surely didn't make it any easier, but was Jack really only angry at the end... I am not so sure. Maybe resignated, maybe disappointed, hurt, sad, but I think that he couldn't keep his anger towards Ennis so long. His Love for Ennis was too big and too deep and it always scattered his anger. Too much love in that big heart of Jack's!

No, he wasn't just angry.  He was also full of compassion.  And after the hug, yes, he became resigned, disappointed, sad, but also understanding.  We see all these mixed feelings in his parting look -- a complex look that is a masterpiece in Jake Gyllenhaal's best style.

[vedrana]

No, he wasn't just angry.  He was also full of compassion.  And after the hug, yes, he became resigned, disappointed, sad, but also understanding.  We see all these mixed feelings in his parting look -- a complex look that is a masterpiece in Jake Gyllenhaal's best style.

And when we know that it is the last time we see him alive... :\'(  it is so very sad! Ennis just left and Jack left there so lonely with his thoughts. 

[myprivatejack]

No, he wasn't just angry.  He was also full of compassion.  And after the hug, yes, he became resigned, disappointed, sad, but also understanding.  We see all these mixed feelings in his parting look -- a complex look that is a masterpiece in Jake Gyllenhaal's best style.

Yes,I have also thought that it's several mixed feelings what we se in Jack's eyes.But above,an inmense sadness...