Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[lamusica]

Right, jackster.
I get mad at Ennis for not thinking of some way he and Jack can get some good out of this visit, but I agree that it was all out of the blue and he didn't have time to think about what to do.  he was way too preoccupied with the girls.  (Also, he was too afraid of being seen with Jack.  He had a real thing about somebody ( everybody?) knowing what was between them.)  He can be forgiven for this slight at hospitality.

[aintfoolin]

Ok, Ok. I’ll set myself up for this one. Now just imagine - it’s Thanksgiving Day at the Twist’s with the Newsome’s an’ all. Doorbell rings and - surprise it’s Ennis, “Hi Jack, just came down to see if we can get together over the holiday and pretend were not queer”. What would Jack do? It’d be a tough situation, even for Jack who’s not one to hide. “Come on in Ennis have a seat here with my prick of a father in-law, who by the way thinks I’m not much of a man anyway. We can talk about all the good times we’ve had campin' and fishin’ together” (See, L.D. we don’t go up there to fish . . )

So here’s Ennis, first time he’s seen his daughters in a month or more, we’ve no idea what he’s planned for today or tomorrow, and pop – out of the blue here’s Jack. Ennis is seems genuinely glad to see him, but is bewildered as to what to do. He doesn’t send him away, doesn’t ask him to stay either. I think he’s like a deer caught in the headlights, completely at a loss of satisfactory action. Ennis’s “uncommonly quick reflexes” don’t suit him to these type situations when’s there’s no one to punch or somethin’ to catch. He sees potential exposure and harm to himself and Jack at every turn. So he just shuffles around, looking hopeless. (Too bad Jr. didn’t pipe up with a suggestion – Come on, get in Jack you can sit next to me!!  )

Jack can’t stay at his place with the girls there, too small. He could shack up at the Siesta until the girls are gone, I don’t know why neither one thinks of this obvious solution. Jack doesn’t seem too bright here either.

Anyway, to me this scene really shows the limitations both men had on how to think about their relationship. Jack too impulsive, Ennis too recalcitrant.


Your scenario, is very interesting, but the same solution applys in my opinion, Had Ennis showed up like this out of the blue at Jack's house, gvin that it is an inopportune moment, yes but to ask  Ennis if he would meet him afterwards at the appropriate time is not out of bounds. It's just plain rude not to. Some one has taken the time to drive this far, albeit unexpected, being courteous is at least in order. Sorry I still think it was wrong to send Jack away, there was always time to talk later.
 If I were Jack I'da never left town until I saw Ennis alone. especially now that he knows where Ennis lives. Ennis owed Jack more respect than this.
 When Jack was crying in the truck, it had to be partially this disrespectful, disconcerting manner in which Ennis sent him away ,as well as the realization that they were not going to have a life post-Alma together  that angered him and drove him over the border into Mexico. After all, they were friends as well as lovers. I still think it sucked big time.This is something Ennis COULD fix if he chose to do so.

[lamusica]

There are so many things in this movie that most of us would have done differently, or would hve preferred Ennis or Jack had done differently.  However, we are stuck with what Annie wanted them to do.  This leaves us with the job (pleasure?) of figuring out WHY she had them do things the way she did.  It's like trying to get inside of Annie's mind, which is a real fun thing to do. Sometimes I begin to think the guys could have done things differently, but then I remember that the script of life was set down for them by Annie, reinterpreted by Larry and Diana, and again by Ang.  What they did cannot be changed.  But we can come to new understandings about the why.

[aintfoolin]

Certainly, and by no means do I intend to demean this great author's vision or anyone else involved in this great story. but it is  my passion that overtakes me. I am prone to much speculation, and embellisment I confess, but this scene as in alot of scenes stokes my passion. .... But the story is was it is.  Personally, I saw the movie first, soon after walked into Barnes and Noble , got a cup of coffee, sat down and read the SS in about 30 minutes. It was a fascinating yet enlightening  experience for me. An excellent read. the character of Ennis is most compelling to me and his reasoning in this scene gets me going every time.  Yelling at the TV screen is not out of character for me during this. I guess Brokeback just got me good. 

[lamusica]

I know what you mean, aint.  It is all so very real to us brokies.  I talk back to the screen, too, because it all means so much to me.  I love every second of the movie and enjoy every word of the ss.  It is just the epitome of art in my heart.

[welshwitch]

I hate that short scene where Aguirre spies on them through his binocluars - it's as if he represents the outside world breaking into their idyll but in a larger sense the hostile and prurient attitudes of homophobia. Maybe he's just an employer out to get a dollar's worth of work for a dollar, but it seems like more than that to me.

[Magdalena]

Tho important for the story, i dont like the scene of Jack in Mexico... cant help it

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Tho important for the story, i dont like the scene of Jack in Mexico... cant help it

That scene bothers me some because I am thinking "Why Jack? It's not Ennis or someone important to you. It means nothing." :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

I don't like the Mexico scene because I see Jack as so broken and destroyed at that point that he just didn't care.  :\'(

[ksxks]

I can't say there are scenes I actively dislike, but when I watch it on the DVD, I usually skip over the scene where Jack shows up after the divorce and Ennis sends him away. The heartbreak in Jack's face is just too difficult to watch, and this is pretty much the point where their lives start going downhill fast.

Only other criticism is over the scenes that aren't there -- IMO it would have benefitted hugely from an erotic or even just affectionate scene in the second half of the movie. It almost started to look like they really were were just on a fishing trip, and it made the first half of the movie and the second half unbalanced in a way.

I so agree with this.  Other than that little sleeping-in-the-tent shot, with Ennis's arm around Jack, there was never really affection shown.  The sense I was left with about their later trips was their bitching at each other; and not looking happy.  Except the night smoking the joint -- but that could have been just two guy-friends.  I wanted some very clear sexual affection, if not an erotic scene, when they were older.  Maybe there is some.  We didn't even get that hug that we always see outtake stills of, when Ennis still has his pack on -- know the one I mean?  If there was that entire hippie scene "on the cuting room floor," maybe there was some affection or more that was cut out.

kathy

[ksxks]

I agree with CSC - I once travelled several hundred miles to meet someone, who greeted me and set off to where he was going anyway, me in tow. En route he met a friend - stopped and talked for some time, didn't introduce me, then went on to where he'd been going. It was the beginning of the end of a beautiful friendship. There's nothing worse than being treated as though you hardly exist, specially by someone who's supposed to love you - I can't see how Jack got over that dismissal by Ennis.

Oh boy do we have these sad stories.  Maybe this isn't exactly the place for it, but...okay, a girl I grew up close with in high school, Georgia, well 15 years later I find out she's gay and that she was in love with me in HS, though I knew nothing about it then, nor did I even know much about gay or anything.  We happened to both end up in San Diego; and in 1985, we were in touch about going back to our 20-year HS reunion in St. Louis.  At that time, I really carried a torch for her, though she was drinking at the time (and I had recently quit), and like I'd see her at the bars and sometimes she'd be all friendly, and more than friendly, and then other times like she hardly knew me (if there was someone better to hang out with).  I remember really well the level of my excitement at going to meet her in St. Louis -- the evening event at the hotel where we all were staying...but she was loaded and seemed to find other people better company than me, and then later finding out she had a room party and didn't even call my room, etc.  Then she had the nerve to come to our room (I was sharing with a woman also in SD who I grew up with in St. Louis) just to crash, and was gone when I got up and I don't think even remembered it the next day.  However, later she quit drinking, also, and we have talked on and off since then...but there is really nothing there.

I am long over her now...but it sure hurt at the time...

kathy

[ksxks]

Ok, Ok. I’ll set myself up for this one. Now just imagine - it’s Thanksgiving Day at the Twist’s with the Newsome’s an’ all. Doorbell rings and - surprise it’s Ennis, “Hi Jack, just came down to see if we can get together over the holiday and pretend were not queer”. What would Jack do? It’d be a tough situation, even for Jack who’s not one to hide. “Come on in Ennis have a seat here with my prick of a father in-law, who by the way thinks I’m not much of a man anyway. We can talk about all the good times we’ve had campin' and fishin’ together” (See, L.D. we don’t go up there to fish . . )

So here’s Ennis, first time he’s seen his daughters in a month or more, we’ve no idea what he’s planned for today or tomorrow, and pop – out of the blue here’s Jack. Ennis is seems genuinely glad to see him, but is bewildered as to what to do. He doesn’t send him away, doesn’t ask him to stay either. I think he’s like a deer caught in the headlights, completely at a loss of satisfactory action. Ennis’s “uncommonly quick reflexes” don’t suit him to these type situations when’s there’s no one to punch or somethin’ to catch. He sees potential exposure and harm to himself and Jack at every turn. So he just shuffles around, looking hopeless. (Too bad Jr. didn’t pipe up with a suggestion – Come on, get in Jack you can sit next to me!!  )

Jack can’t stay at his place with the girls there, too small. He could shack up at the Siesta until the girls are gone, I don’t know why neither one thinks of this obvious solution. Jack doesn’t seem too bright here either.

Anyway, to me this scene really shows the limitations both men had on how to think about their relationship. Jack too impulsive, Ennis too recalcitrant.

I love your analogy, jackster! And I totally agree with Ennis's "deer caught in the headlights" mien.  He didn't know what to do, but he did not send Jack away.  All this time, I never really caught on to this:  He did not send Jack away.  Jack was as impulsive as Ennis was recalcitrant there.  (I love a fic I read where Jack comes back, says sh*t, I shouldn't'a left so quick like that.)  He didn't know what to do with Jack, but he didn't know how to stop him from leaving, either.

kathy

[BBBOY]

I love your analogy, jackster! And I totally agree with Ennis's "deer caught in the headlights" mien.  He didn't know what to do, but he did not send Jack away.  All this time, I never really caught on to this:  He did not send Jack away.  Jack was as impulsive as Ennis was recalcitrant there.  (I love a fic I read where Jack comes back, says sh*t, I shouldn't'a left so quick like that.)  He didn't know what to do with Jack, but he didn't know how to stop him from leaving, either.

kathy

Deer caught in the headlights is a great analogy, but the truth is neither one of these men could deal with what they had for each other, so the obvious things that should have happened didn't. "Go to a motel Jack, I catch you later." didn't occur to either of them.

[manhattangirl]

Deer caught in the headlights is a great analogy, but the truth is neither one of these men could deal with what they had for each other, so the obvious things that should have happened didn't. "Go to a motel Jack, I catch you later." didn't occur to either of them.

Just to send Jack away like that, I wondered why Ennis didn't tell Jack to wait till his girls leave, but instead stick to schedule?  This caution, I wonder didn't start at the reunion, and Ennis lost total control when he saw Jack, this lost of control scared him, he knew how he was when he was near Jack, he couldn't keep his hands off him.  So again he trained himself to resist that urge. Ennis not being a thinking man, swore that others could tell how he was and felt when Jack was near. 

I didn't like this scene much either, because of Jack's pain, not aware of the need Ennis had for him, but only could feel the rejection when Ennis sent him away.     

[aintfoolin]

So why did Jack just leave like that then? He must have sensed something that devastated him. Jack must have very badly wanted a decent explanation for this from Ennis. it's only natural, but having the girls there stopped him from inquiring further, Otherwise this  could have gotten ugly. This could have been Ennis's ASS!!  Instead,  calm and seemingly collected, he walks away....But in reality, he's so devastated he can't help the tears and Jack takes his anger and frustration to the dark alleys of Mexico. Could this be the beginning of the end? Sometimes I see it this way.

[manhattangirl]

So why did Jack just leave like that then? He must have sensed something that devastated him. Jack must have very badly wanted a decent explanation for this from Ennis. it's only natural, but having the girls there stopped him from inquiring further, Otherwise this  could have gotten ugly. This could have been Ennis's ASS!!  Instead,  calm and seemingly collected, he walks away....But in reality, he's so devastated he can't help the tears and Jack takes his anger and frustration to the dark alleys of Mexico. Could this be the beginning of the end? Sometimes I see it this way.

Why did Jack do anything when it came to Ennis, it's what Ennis wanted.   From the FNIT Ennis takes Jack for the first time Jack submits,  the I'm not queer declaration, Jacks replies, "Me neither",  and even the SNIT, Ennis returns to Jack, and he takes him in his arms.  Jack sends a postcard after four years, "YOU BET", Jack goes to him.  Ennis resist a life with him, Jack hangs back.   It was always what Ennis wanted, and what Jack gave him.    So Ennis tells of his divorce, and Jack thinking the coast is clear for them goes running to only to find out he was wrong, again he does what Ennis wants he leaves.   

Like Ennis Jack had his fear, and that was losing Ennis.   Ennis's pain self inflicted, and because of his love for Ennis his pain also was self inflicted too scared to let go. 

[lightnin flat]

          i dont like the mexico scene jack is just looking for anything in his hour of despair and obviously not thinking clearly.   
            i dont like the 4 of july scene either i get the feeling from that scene ennis was just taking his         
              frustrations out on those men even though they were very rude.

[lightnin flat]

Why did Jack do anything when it came to Ennis, it's what Ennis wanted.   From the FNIT Ennis takes Jack for the first time Jack submits,  the I'm not queer declaration, Jacks replies, "Me neither",  and even the SNIT, Ennis returns to Jack, and he takes him in his arms.  Jack sends a postcard after four years, "YOU BET", Jack goes to him.  Ennis resist a life with him, Jack hangs back.   It was always what Ennis wanted, and what Jack gave him.    So Ennis tells of his divorce, and Jack thinking the coast is clear for them goes running to only to find out he was wrong, again he does what Ennis wants he leaves.   

Like Ennis Jack had his fear, and that was losing Ennis.   Ennis's pain self inflicted, and because of his love for Ennis his pain also was self inflicted too scared to let go. 

when ennis said there aint no reins on this one well ithink there was and ennis was holding them he was more in charge of the realationship than jack was.
ennis was almost 100 per cent in his mind that he would never make it permanent with jack so he would just get on with his life.
but jack never knew if he was going to get that call or postcard from ennis jack just lived in hope every day that some day that call or card would come telling him to go to ennis but it never did.
  jacks mind was not settled so if there was any chance for him to see ennis thats why jack went runnig to him every opportunity probaly with hope in his heart.    jacks words damn you ennis

[aintfoolin]

The scene I hate the most is when Jack died. He was such a vital part of the whole film that when  he died, I felt robbed of his presense. I can't imagine the devastation Ennis felt. I hated the phone conversation between Lureen and Ennis and Ennis's vision of how Jack died saddened and angered me. I still won't watch it again. It's just too painful.

[LuvJackNasty]

Great post Aintfoolin'. I feel exactly the same way. I turn away when that scene comes on. I know he's gone but I can't bear to watch it. I've seen it I think twice maybe in all of my viewings.

[myprivatejack]

Great post Aintfoolin'. I feel exactly the same way. I turn away when that scene comes on. I know he's gone but I can't bear to watch it. I've seen it I think twice maybe in all of my viewings.

I´m not original if I say this scene is awful to see because it´s the destruction of Ennis´reason of living and,somehow,of our illusions.Less evidently,I dislike all the scenes in which,for their own fault or not,their relationship can be damaged:from Aguirre´s spying to the after divorce scene.

[monicita]

What exactly do you mean by "dislike"? I think there are two very different meanings being talked about here: Some people talk about what they dislike, because it hurts them emotionally or morally (Jack's death, Jack in Mexico etc.) and others talk about scenes they think just don't work very well or are clichéd (Texans in the thanksgiving scene, Jack when he mimics the rodeo). So I would like to say, as many have, that there is no scene I actively dislike, because it isn't well made. There are just scenes that are harder to watch than others.

monicita

[monicita]

Another thing: One of the most interesting reasons for disliking scenes is that one of the characters does something you don't want them to do. Some people have said that they dislike Jack's going to Mexico, because they don't want him to do that. But does that mean that you think the scene shouldn't be in the movie? If all those scenes were taken out, it would be an extremely bland and not very interesting movie. So what I would dislike the most would be for one of the scenes discussed here to be taken out of the movie. Because all of them are necessary for the development of the characters or the story. So, does anybody really think there are "unnecessary" scenes in this sense?

monicita

[tpe]

What exactly do you mean by "dislike"? I think there are two very different meanings being talked about here: Some people talk about what they dislike, because it hurts them emotionally or morally (Jack's death, Jack in Mexico etc.) and others talk about scenes they think just don't work very well or are clichéd (Texans in the thanksgiving scene, Jack when he mimics the rodeo). So I would like to say, as many have, that there is no scene I actively dislike, because it isn't well made. There are just scenes that are harder to watch than others.

monicita

This is the same with me -- except that I have a little conundrum: the scenes I find so hard to watch are the ones that move me the most -- by one critierion then, they are the scenes I treasure the most...

[myprivatejack]

Monicita,I was speaking of "dislike" for something more simple:because they crash with the inner wish of they having this "sweet life" together that all of us have. :\'( or because they show us the impossibility of this life.By no means I´m suggesting that I find them badly done or that they are not necessaries to the movie´s development.On the contrary:be they nice or not to see,unfortunately they must be in it if we want to learn its final lesson;don´t put obstacles to your own happinness or life will teach you that the worst result is to regret for what you haven´t done,not for what you have done it wrongly...You´re right:perhaps it´s better to say "hard to see".But I don´t find any other word to describe how I feel when I see Aguirre,f.e.,because he´s the embodiment of the kind of world that denies their love.

[lightnin flat]

Another thing: One of the most interesting reasons for disliking scenes is that one of the characters does something you don't want them to do. Some people have said that they dislike Jack's going to Mexico, because they don't want him to do that. But does that mean that you think the scene shouldn't be in the movie? If all those scenes were taken out, it would be an extremely bland and not very interesting movie. So what I would dislike the most would be for one of the scenes discussed here to be taken out of the movie. Because all of them are necessary for the development of the characters or the story. So, does anybody really think there are "unnecessary" scenes in this sense?

monicita

by me not wanting jack to go to mexico it doesnt mean i dont think the scene shouldnt be in the film its part of the story a big part in fact because thats one of the things that comes out at jack and ennis,s last meeting togther so it is vital to the film.yes i wish jack had not gone to mexico, i wish ennis or jack never got married but they did iwish they never parted back in 63 .but these are my thoughts as for the film and i dont think there is any unnecessary scenes in the film.I think we would have all  wanted it to end differently but i am no way saying that any part of the film should be changed.Because if it was it wouldnt be brokeback mountain.

[lightnin flat]

Monicita,I was speaking of "dislike" for something more simple:because they crash with the inner wish of they having this "sweet life" together that all of us have. :\'( or because they show us the impossibility of this life.By no means I´m suggesting that I find them badly done or that they are not necessaries to the movie´s development.On the contrary:be they nice or not to see,unfortunately they must be in it if we want to learn its final lesson;don´t put obstacles to your own happinness or life will teach you that the worst result is to regret for what you haven´t done,not for what you have done it wrongly...You´re right:perhaps it´s better to say "hard to see".But I don´t find any other word to describe how I feel when I see Aguirre,f.e.,because he´s the embodiment of the kind of world that denies their love.

   I agree with you 100 percent about aguirre if there was less aguirre,s about jack and ennis could of had the life they wanted and so truely deserved instead of living in fear of the aguirre,s of this world

 

[tpe]

So I guess the context of "dislike" here refers to scenes that strike one as unpleasant to watch? 

It is interesting to note that some members in the past have defended Aguirre -- saying that he only did what he could to ensure that the owrk was done.  That he did not show any overt signs of homophobia.  Whether we believe this or not, I personally think of him as a kind of necessary contrast or counterpoint to the love of Ennis and Jack in BBM.  I don't find the scenes with Aguirre in 63 outright unpleasant to watch; I find that the scenes add a sense of hightened tension to that idyllic time.  The closest I would go to saying "unpleasant" was in the way he treated them in the beginning scene, or in the way he treated Jack in the summer of 64.

[monicita]

Tpe, I watched the movie again yesterday (after several months of not seeing it) and the Aguirre scene, when Jack comes back in 63 is definitely one of most unpleasant ones to watch for me. And let's face it, he is not the world's nicest guy, is he? I definitely wouldn't want to work under him. Remember what he said to them, when they came down the mountain: "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good"...

How are you, by the way?

monicita

[tpe]

Tpe, I watched the movie again yesterday (after several months of not seeing it) and the Aguirre scene, when Jack comes back in 63 is definitely one of most unpleasant ones to watch for me. And let's face it, he is not the world's nicest guy, is he? I definitely wouldn't want to work under him. Remember what he said to them, when they came down the mountain: "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good"...

How are you, by the way?

monicita

To say that he is not likeable is to put it mildly.  Just the thought of him spying on Ennis's and Jack's love games send a chill through my spine...

OT:  Oh monicita!  I have had a terrible year with damages on my condo due to poor planning by the management.   Plus, my Jake ring got stolen in the process.  Other than this, everything is ok.  Will we see you next year in Brussels?  Or perhaps some other venue?