Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I hope everyone has a much happier Thanksgiving than the two shown in BBM.  Both are so necessary to the film, but both are so emotional, like eating dinner on a powderkeg, just waiting for the fuse to ignite and blow them all to kingdom come.  All that angst they were all keeping inside!  Wow! That would be uncomfortable.  I think the juxtaposition of those two scenes shows the viewer just how much Jack and Ennis were holding inside and building up.   Then, on a day when everyone should be giving thanks for all they had, they both explode. After all, the one thing each man wanted was denied him, so he was full of unrest, ready for bear, as the saying goes.  They didn't have the one thing they would have been truly thankful for -- each other. I can't say I liked the scenes, but they were powerful and insightful.

Yes, I also believe that both scenes are a way of saying that no one of both were really satisfied with the kind of family life they had.If they explode is for this reason-more clearly in Jack´s case-,but also because they wanted,they really wished,spent that day with another persons by their side;we all  know that in fête days we miss much more the ones who aren´t with us;it´s the example why Christmas time can be so depressing in some occassions...-.Jack,moreover,must demonstrate that he was the man of the house before an unbearable father-in-law who maybe was already suspecting about him,besides of hating his guts from the very moment he met him.Ennis case wa different,since his explosion is a mixing of fear that Alma could speak too much before too many persons,protection of Jack and their relationship because he was being attacked, a kind of reafirmation of himself  and his virility,of the role that,as a man,must play before his former wife and his daughters, and a simple show of violence that came from his own frustration and impotence to deal properly with the situation.Not easy for no one of them...Nor both of them  are pleasant scenes too;violent scenes never are,but more when the essence of the question is so bitter.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I guess I did not realize until now this parallel of the thanksgiving scenes!  Both scenes were intense  and disconcerting but I guess I was too caught up in the drama and action to notice the similarities, having seen the movie only twice now (last time a month ago). You are correct, in that both of them would   probably have loved to be in each others arms that day, instead of the circumstances they found themselves in.  It is also interesting, although not surprising, that both of their thanksgivings mirrored the more violent side of human nature. Thanks for pointing this out. 

How true!  Although Ennis I'm sure was grateful to spend the time with his girls, both characters no doubt wished they were with each other.  Instead, both characters had holiday drama to contend with.  Jack exploded and Ennis was on the receiving end of one.

[manhattangirl]

For me, the Thanksgiving was realization of the men true self.   Jack his power, and Ennis his weakness.   We're thinking all during film before this point that Ennis was the stronger in this relationship, but it wasn't the case.   The final confrontation revealed this.  Jack's love for Ennis made him strong, Ennis was always hanging on by a thread and needed Jack, and his love to keep from falling apart.

Remember how much Ennis fooled himself when he made that stupid remark to Alma about once burned when she told him he should marry again.  She let him have it.  Ennis up until that time never took responsibility for the relationship, Alma made him.

LD made Jack stand up for himself in his own home.  Jack always deferred to others, but not this time, he was tired of his manhood being challenge, he himself being challenge. 

These two incidents set the stage for that last day.  hiddens truths and revelations.   

My take away.

[babytammy7]

For me, the Thanksgiving was realization of the men true self.   Jack his power, and Ennis his weakness.   We're thinking all during film before this point that Ennis was the stronger in this relationship, but it wasn't the case.   The final confrontation revealed this.  Jack's love for Ennis made him strong, Ennis was always hanging on by a thread and needed Jack, and his love to keep from falling apart.

Remember how much Ennis fooled himself when he made that stupid remark to Alma about once burned when she told him he should marry again.  She let him have it.  Ennis up until that time never took responsibility for the relationship, Alma made him.

LD made Jack stand up for himself in his own home.  Jack always deferred to others, but not this time, he was tired of his manhood being challenge, he himself being challenge. 

These two incidents set the stage for that last day.  hiddens truths and revelations.   

My take away.

Very well said MG!! I agree with everything!!! Jack became stronger because of all his fights to make his dream come true, and finally he was the most hard of both them.

[lancecowboy]

Really interesting discussion here.

For me, the two most unpleasant scenes to watch are Jack walking down the alley in Mexico, and him sitting on the bench outside with Randall. They are even more unpleasant than the Jimbo scene, which comes close to making it a three-way tie.

These are my least favorite scenes. Truth is, I hate these scenes, because they are when Jack drifts away from Ennis, when his love wavers. Jack was tested beyond his endurance by his love for Ennis and Ennis' refusal to live the sweet life that he loves. There are lies we have to tell...when our lives are forced into blind alleys, dead ends.

[manhattangirl]

But doesn't it show the humaness, (if there is such a word), of Jack.   It's painful to watch, but why?  because we can relate to that kind of hopelessness in our life, the weakness of just being human beings. 

Jack is walking in cloud of doubt, anger, and love for someone, no matter how close seems so far away.  That's why I'm drawn to this character, because like Ennis, he's part of us too.

[tpe]

But doesn't it show the humaness, (if there is such a word), of Jack.   It's painful to watch, but why?  because we can relate to that kind of hopelessness in our life, the weakness of just being human beings. 

Jack is walking in cloud of doubt, anger, and love for someone, no matter how close seems so far away.  That's why I'm drawn to this character, because like Ennis, he's part of us too.

Yes it does.  As much as it shows Ennis's "humaness" when he breaks down in an alley.

[siredevienne38]

IMO, the sadest one is where Ennis visits Jack' parents (sniffing the shirt), I dislike it because it gives you the safety that Jack will definitely never come back :\'(

[tpe]

IMO, the sadest one is where Ennis visits Jack' parents (sniffing the shirt), I dislike it because it gives you the safety that Jack will definitely never come back :\'(

I do think this is one of the saddest of scenes, but for some reason, I do love it quite a lot -- especially the scene in Jack's room.   It is the closest Ennis ever got to "publicly" mourn the loss of Jack.  At least Jack's mother understood...
 

[myprivatejack]

I do think this is one of the saddest of scenes, but for some reason, I do love it quite a lot -- especially the scene in Jack's room.   It is the closest Ennis ever got to "publicly" mourn the loss of Jack.  At least Jack's mother understood...

One more time I must agree with you,Thomas,in that-although is a rather touching and difficult to see scene -we love it.Because there's a kind of complicity between the two persons who loved and were loved by Jack the most;and in Mrs. Twists case,who knew the man she was before her was the other person who Jack loved.And because,somehow,it's a kind of liberation for Ennis,who opened himself to his own feelings more than never before,even if it's too late...

[lamusica]

Jack driving to Mexico always tears me apart.  He has just been rebuffed by the man he loves, with little explanation, and is now on his way to look for someone to take Ennis's place ( at least physically).  But his heart was breaking.  I think Ennis has a lot to be sorry for causing this grief in Jack.  This follows one scene in which I wanted to put a boot up Ennis's behind to kick-start his brain.  He had the best thing standing in front of him, yet turned him away.  How easily he could have made plans with Jack to meet up later that evening in a motel somewhere, or, if he had the girls for the weekend, Jack could have caught him on the way back from visiting his folks, but he blew it.  So, Jack's tears really show us how  hurt he was.  It's a necessary scene, but still painful to watch.

[tpe]

One more time I must agree with you,Thomas,in that-although is a rather touching and difficult to see scene -we love it.Because there's a kind of complicity between the two persons who loved and were loved by Jack the most;and in Mrs. Twists case,who knew the man she was before her was the other person who Jack loved.And because,somehow,it's a kind of liberation for Ennis,who opened himself to his own feelings more than never before,even if it's too late...

This is true.  It is Ennis's Road to Emmaus.  It wasn't liberation in the extroverted sense, but more a final realization of what he was within him.

 

[tpe]

Jack driving to Mexico always tears me apart.  He has just been rebuffed by the man he loves, with little explanation, and is now on his way to look for someone to take Ennis's place ( at least physically).  But his heart was breaking.  I think Ennis has a lot to be sorry for causing this grief in Jack.  This follows one scene in which I wanted to put a boot up Ennis's behind to kick-start his brain.  He had the best thing standing in front of him, yet turned him away.  How easily he could have made plans with Jack to meet up later that evening in a motel somewhere, or, if he had the girls for the weekend, Jack could have caught him on the way back from visiting his folks, but he blew it.  So, Jack's tears really show us how  hurt he was.  It's a necessary scene, but still painful to watch.

I also find this scene difficult, but as in Ennis's visit to LF, I also have a starnge affection for the crying scene.  It shows Jack vulnerable, even if he pretended to think nothing of it when he was face to face with Ennis.

Ennis's situation at that moment was difficult and to some degree understandable.  But I wished that he would have asked Jack to stay even for a short while...

[lamusica]

I think this is the one of the times Jack really takes a chance.  When he heard about the divorce, he took the chance of just turning up in front of Ennis and leaving the ball in his court.  Ennis could play the ball as he wished.  He could have taken this chance to really solidify his relationship with Jack, make it something permanent.  OR, he could do what he did and turn Jack away.  Jack let it all hang out, and Ennis fumbled.  I'm not criticizing Ennis.  He did what he felt he had to do.  He had the girls for the weekend, didn't get them too often, so needed to do the responsible thing and take care of them.  Consequently, good-bye, Jack.  But I find this so sad, even understanding Ennis's motivation.  Jack took a chance and was slapped down.  This hurt him -- thus the tears.  I just find those tears hard to watch because they seem to be so definitive.  They indicate that Ennis did NOT put Jack first in his life, and that is so sad since Jack DID put Ennis first, from everything I can see.

[jackster]

. . . Ennis could play the ball as he wished. He could have taken this chance to really solidify his relationship with Jack, make it something permanent.  OR, he could do what he did and turn Jack away . . .

Don't you think it's actually much more complicated than this? The subtle complexity of this one situation is so emblematic of their relationship, especially the lack of communication by both E&J. Ennis, torn between his own blood, who he hasn't seen in two months (because of his job - sound familiar?), and time with Jack; Jack gets a postcard and bang, he's off like a shot for WY, can't call Ennis, he doesn't even know where he lives, but expects everything to work out fine on the spot when he shows without warning. Even though he's not expected till the next month. This is a brilliant screenplay construction to me, considering the only thing in the SS was one sentence . . ."He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."

Jack's the chance taker, FNIT there's a real chance, and Ennis is the 'by the book' guy. The plan for weekend (w/the girls) had been laid out and he was just going by the script. I think they both fumbled IMHO. Jack's known Ennis for what, 12 years by this time, and he thinks he can just show up and Ennis will drop everything for some high altitude fun? Huh? Ennis sees how happy Jack is to see him (toot, toot, toot, sounds like horns honking after a wedding), and yet he can't think of nuthin' to resolve the situation and lets Jack drive off crushed. I'm not sure Ennis isn't crushed too, having to make that kind of decision, I think his face shows inner torment.

To me McMurtry and Ossana cleverly extended the boys confused emotions from the SS 1967 motel scene - "I doubt there's nothin now we can do," said Ennis. "What I'm sayin', Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls. . . . . We can't. I'm stuck with what I got, caught in my own loop. Can't get out of it. - they've shown that E&J continued that same confused emotional state from '67 to '75. All the way to end really. JMHO

[lamusica]

Don't you think it's actually much more complicated than this? The subtle complexity of this one situation is so emblematic of their relationship, especially the lack of communication by both E&J. Ennis, torn between his own blood, who he hasn't seen in two months (because of his job - sound familiar?), and time with Jack; Jack gets a postcard and bang, he's off like a shot for WY, can't call Ennis, he doesn't even know where he lives, but expects everything to work out fine on the spot when he shows without warning. Even though he's not expected till the next month. This is a brilliant screenplay construction to me, considering the only thing in the SS was one sentence . . ."He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."

Jack's the chance taker, FNIT there's a real chance, and Ennis is the 'by the book' guy. The plan for weekend (w/the girls) had been laid out and he was just going by the script. I think they both fumbled IMHO. Jack's known Ennis for what, 12 years by this time, and he thinks he can just show up and Ennis will drop everything for some high altitude fun? Huh? Ennis sees how happy Jack is to see him (toot, toot, toot, sounds like horns honking after a wedding), and yet he can't think of nuthin' to resolve the situation and lets Jack drive off crushed. I'm not sure Ennis isn't crushed too, having to make that kind of decision, I think his face shows inner torment.

To me McMurtry and Ossana cleverly extended the boys confused emotions from the SS 1967 motel scene - "I doubt there's nothin now we can do," said Ennis. "What I'm sayin', Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls. . . . . We can't. I'm stuck with what I got, caught in my own loop. Can't get out of it. - they've shown that E&J continued that same confused emotional state from '67 to '75. All the way to end really. JMHO

I think what you are saying, jackster, is exactly right.  I am not chastising Ennis for his actions in any way.  He is doing what he feels he has to do.  Familial obligations come first to him.  But, even as he is rejecting Jack, standing there in front of that old out-building, Ennis is watching the road -- making sure they are not seen.  Ennis is happy to have his girls, but he is also happy and afraid to see Jack.  He chooses his girls.  Nothing to be wronged for.  However, I do think this shows a fundamental difference between Jack and Ennis.  Let's say it was Jack who got divorced and Ennis went to see him.  Jack might have had his son for the weekend.  Would he have turned Ennis away? IMO, he would have found some way to be with Ennis.  That's all I meant to say.  I think Ennis is #1 with Jack and Jack is not necessarily #1 with Ennis.  JMHO
(But, then, anyone's tears tend to do me in!) :\'(
    Your observation about MCMurtry and Osana is right on, too, I believe.  Most people who saw this film did not read the short story, so they had to find some way to convey on film the deepest emotions of these two men.  Thus, the beautiful motel scene -- full of enlightenment for the viewer. (That's probably my favorite scene of all.)  We really need to know this is Ennis's motivation.  He loves his family, but, at the same times, realizes they bind him to where he is and keep him from reaching out to Jack.  (Keep him is his loop.)

[jackster]

. . .  Let's say it was Jack who got divorced and Ennis went to see him.  Jack might have had his son for the weekend.  Would he have turned Ennis away? IMO, he would have found some way to be with Ennis. That's all I meant to say. I think Ennis is #1 with Jack and Jack is not necessarily #1 with Ennis. . . .

Yeah, interesting reversal. I made a similar proposal once, what if Ennis showed up unannounced at the Twist house on Thanksgiving, then what? What would Jack do, what about LD and Lureen? Would'a made for some real fireworks, huh? (be an interesting scene to write) You're right of course, Ennis was #1 with Ennis, as he said early on . . . Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes. And I don't want a be dead." Self-preservation. He equated being with Jack as a death sentence per Earl, and I guess if Jack 'n Randall can be considered a pair, then he was proven right per Jack 'n Randall too. Maybe LOVE was #1 with Jack, with Ennis first and foremost, but the rodeo clown, Lureen, Mexican street boys, and Randall - wherever he could find it, or thought he could find it. Maybe's what got him started FNIT too, he needed someone to love. Ennis didn't (didn't think he did anyway, 'till later).

ps - nice to discussing this with you again, kind of cathartic after past two weeks.

[lamusica]

i REALLY like what you said here, Jackster, about it being LOVE that was # 1 with Jack, and not necessarily Ennis.  That's a new way for me to think of all this and I like it.  Maybe that's true of folks in general -- that some put love ( any kind) as their primary need and other just don't.  I have to think about this one.  Thanks for the idea.  This is interesting!!!!

[jackster]

Kinda' OT here lamusica, but seems this is what the Dozy Embrace is tryin' to exemplify, Jack's hunger for LOVE . . . "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

He just so desperately wanted to be LOVED. Though he talks about about a few high-altitude f**ks, what he really means is he needs the LOVE, not the sex. The sweet life was to live in union with this LOVE. Sorry for bein' OT.

[babytammy7]

Kinda' OT here lamusica, but seems this is what the Dozy Embrace is tryin' to exemplify, Jack's hunger for LOVE . . . "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

He just so desperately wanted to be LOVED. Though he talks about about a few high-altitude f**ks, what he really means is he needs the LOVE, not the sex. The sweet life was to live in union with this LOVE. Sorry for bein' OT.

i REALLY like what you said here, Jackster, about it being LOVE that was # 1 with Jack, and not necessarily Ennis.  That's a new way for me to think of all this and I like it.  Maybe that's true of folks in general -- that some put love ( any kind) as their primary need and other just don't.  I have to think about this one.  Thanks for the idea.  This is interesting!!!!

LM, Jackster, thank you so much for your beautiful posts. I love them and also I've always thought that Jack wanted only to love and to be loved. I don't know why but reading SS and watching several times the film that is what I always got from Jack. It's so interesting that when you read a poem or a fic about Jack you can find there exactly the same!!! So if so many brokies see Jack in this way, then I think that must be true. Jack looking for love, that's all.

[myprivatejack]

Really deep and nice posts yours,Lamusica and Jackster.   Yes,Jack was someone always in search for love and being-and feeling-loved and I'd add, appraised for someone.It was something he hardly had in all his life,from his own father to his own wife and in-law family.
But when he found this person,I think he didn't know how to hold on him in what constitutes one of the other scenes I dislike a lot.I'm referring to their farewell after having left BBM;it's not a violent,not a very disgusting scene in its shape,but it's in its essence.It has a lot of temperate and hidden emotions,and,for me,it results really deplorable to see both of them not daring to say anything about their future.Jack's glance telling Ennis without words:"Please,don't go" and Ennis trying not to look at him in the eyes-surely being afraid of not resisting it...-and remarking he's going to marry Alma soon-as a last way to hurt Jack,maybe for what "he had done" with him up in the mountain?-is for me a rather unpleasant scene.Í don't find it sad indeed,but annoying;one feels like entering on the movie if it could be possible,and beat both of them for their stupidity and this lack of communication that's so showy for me and that lasted during all their relationship.

[lamusica]

Kinda' OT here lamusica, but seems this is what the Dozy Embrace is tryin' to exemplify, Jack's hunger for LOVE . . . "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

He just so desperately wanted to be LOVED. Though he talks about about a few high-altitude f**ks, what he really means is he needs the LOVE, not the sex. The sweet life was to live in union with this LOVE. Sorry for bein' OT.

I don't t hink you're OT at all.  You are discussing what Jack needed and what he wasn't getting, which caused the tears he shed in what I consider to be one of the hardest scenes to watch.  Right on topic, to me

And Baby Tammy, you are so right.  We all want to give Jack what he was looking for -- love.

[tpe]

I think what you are saying, jackster, is exactly right.  I am not chastising Ennis for his actions in any way.  He is doing what he feels he has to do.  Familial obligations come first to him.  But, even as he is rejecting Jack, standing there in front of that old out-building, Ennis is watching the road -- making sure they are not seen.  Ennis is happy to have his girls, but he is also happy and afraid to see Jack.  He chooses his girls.  Nothing to be wronged for.  However, I do think this shows a fundamental difference between Jack and Ennis.  Let's say it was Jack who got divorced and Ennis went to see him.  Jack might have had his son for the weekend.  Would he have turned Ennis away? IMO, he would have found some way to be with Ennis.  That's all I meant to say.  I think Ennis is #1 with Jack and Jack is not necessarily #1 with Ennis.  JMHO
(But, then, anyone's tears tend to do me in!) :\'(
    Your observation about MCMurtry and Osana is right on, too, I believe.  Most people who saw this film did not read the short story, so they had to find some way to convey on film the deepest emotions of these two men.  Thus, the beautiful motel scene -- full of enlightenment for the viewer. (That's probably my favorite scene of all.)  We really need to know this is Ennis's motivation.  He loves his family, but, at the same times, realizes they bind him to where he is and keep him from reaching out to Jack.  (Keep him is his loop.)

Yeah, interesting reversal. I made a similar proposal once, what if Ennis showed up unannounced at the Twist house on Thanksgiving, then what? What would Jack do, what about LD and Lureen? Would'a made for some real fireworks, huh? (be an interesting scene to write) You're right of course, Ennis was #1 with Ennis, as he said early on . . . Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes. And I don't want a be dead." Self-preservation. He equated being with Jack as a death sentence per Earl, and I guess if Jack 'n Randall can be considered a pair, then he was proven right per Jack 'n Randall too. Maybe LOVE was #1 with Jack, with Ennis first and foremost, but the rodeo clown, Lureen, Mexican street boys, and Randall - wherever he could find it, or thought he could find it. Maybe's what got him started FNIT too, he needed someone to love. Ennis didn't (didn't think he did anyway, 'till later).

ps - nice to discussing this with you again, kind of cathartic after past two weeks.

Very interesting exchange, lamusica and jackster.

I do admit that I sometimes feel ill at ease at some imbalances in the relationship.  But even in those scenes where this becomes more apparent, I find myself not having the heart to dislike any of them.  BBM is so full of scenes that are so disturbing underneath, and yet, it is by this that the movie and the story continue to pull us in and fascinate us.  I hope this does not sound too morbid.  But the imbalances and sense of "unfairness" sometimes make us connect with the characters on a deeper level.  I hope you know what I mean...

[lamusica]

Very interesting exchange, lamusica and jackster.

I do admit that I sometimes feel ill at ease at some imbalances in the relationship.  But even in those scenes where this becomes more apparent, I find myself not having the heart to dislike any of them.  BBM is so full of scenes that are so disturbing underneath, and yet, it is by this that the movie and the story continue to pull us in and fascinate us.  I hope this does not sound too morbid.  But the imbalances and sense of "unfairness" sometimes make us connect with the characters on a deeper level.  I hope you know what I mean...

If I am hearing you right, I certainly agree with you.  There are times when I am convinced Ennis is at fault that the relationship didn't go farther than it did, but then, I see an event that convinces me that it is Jack who withheld himself, or is some way made a committment from Ennis impossible.  As you said, it is the constant fluctuating, or imbalances, that makes us love these characters.  We may get angry about something they do, but we realize they are human -- they exhibit failings like all human beings do -- and we forgive them and love them anyway.  In this scene, Ennis angers me, but I DO understand where he was coming from with his daughters watching every move they made and listening to every word.  I know why he rebuffed Jack, I just don't like to see it.

[jackster]

Very interesting exchange, lamusica and jackster.
. . . But the imbalances and sense of "unfairness" sometimes make us connect with the characters on a deeper level.  I hope you know what I mean...

I get your drift here too Thomas. And wholeheartedly agree with your very touching assessment. Like you say, much of what is so gripping about this story is how it is cut from the fabric of life itself. Full of its mistakes, and regrets, but also of its wonders and sweetness. Sorry I gotta stop . . .
 :\'(

[tpe]

Thanks lamusica and jackster.  I like what you said.  I don't think there is really any scene in BBM that is free of tension or some form of imbalance, and this keeps all of us on edge.  And as lamusica had implied, by shifting our inner focus from one to the other, we get a deeper appreciation for each of them. 

And there are certainly a number of unpleasant scenes that only serve to take us out of ourselves and into a totally different perspective that may be completely alien or repulsive to us.

A perfect example would be the scene in BBM where they play with each other out in the open, only to realize that you see them through Aguirre's eyes.  We initailly see this as something beautiful and light-hearted, until we realize that we have been momentarily put in the situation as Aguirre.  This horrifies many of us, and strikes us as most unpleasant, because for a moment, we are made to see things in the eyes of someone who didn't exactly see things our way.  It makes us abruptly reassess our perspective, in relation to another observer that we don't particularly find sympathetic or attractive.  It disturbs us out of our sense of peace and equilibrium...
 

[jackster]

Oh, this is a great prospect thomas. I don't think I ever realized why this scene and transition was so devastating. Reading your description of it, and thinking of that great close-up shot of the binoculars, just sent a chill up my back. Beauty and/or evil in the eye of the beholder.

[lamusica]

Wow!  This topic just turned DEEP, didn't it.  Thanks for the observation, Thomas.

I think this happens to a lesser extent in another scene I dislike viscerally, but know is necessary to the film -- when Jack makes overtures to the rodeo clown.  We see Jack in all his loneliness trying to make contact with another human being, but then we see Jack through the clown's eyes as he refuses the drink and strolls over to his buddies and, I imagine, makes some sort of remark about Jack to them.  Again, the viewer is jolted by the change of perspective in the scene.

Maybe it is this shock that makes the scene(s) disturbing and among those we consider unlikeable.

[jackster]

These early and uncomfortable scenes with Aguirre, and then the clown really set the background tone of hostility that comes back twenty years later with the (possible) violent death of Jack. As you say lamusica + tpe, they're needed to set the idea of this as a possibility into the mind of the viewers.

[BBBOY]

I do not believe there is a scene in the whole movie that was not made to move us and make us think about what what was happening between and to these men. I can not think of one scene where I was not challenged to think of my own life and how I have lived it. It's called art folks, and it moves us. That's enough for me.