Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[lamusica]

I do not believe there is a scene in the whole movie that was not made to move us and make us think about what what was happening between and to these men. I can not think of one scene where I was not challenged to think of my own life and how I have lived it. It's called art folks, and it moves us. That's enough for me.

You are soooooo right, BBBoy!  But art just cries out to be analyzed.  Sometimes it's not enough to say "I like it!"  "It appeals to me."  We need to discover what the essence of the thing is that made us fall in love with it -- in this case, BBM.  In order to do that, we stumble across things that disturb us, or make us think in a way different than we used to, or that speak to us of our past -- thus, this thread.  Sometimes the challenging parts of this film, the ones that carry the most meaning, are not easy to watch.  I love the whole movie, including these scenes being discussed in this thread, because, as you stated, we need them all to flesh out the whole.

[BBBOY]

You are soooooo right, BBBoy!  But art just cries out to be analyzed.  Sometimes it's not enough to say "I like it!"  "It appeals to me."  We need to discover what the essence of the thing is that made us fall in love with it -- in this case, BBM.  In order to do that, we stumble across things that disturb us, or make us think in a way different than we used to, or that speak to us of our past -- thus, this thread.  Sometimes the challenging parts of this film, the ones that carry the most meaning, are not easy to watch.  I love the whole movie, including these scenes being discussed in this thread, because, as you stated, we need them all to flesh out the whole.

TY lamusica. I never tire of watching this movie and always come away with new insight and understanding. I suppose that is what great art is all about.

[chameau]

I do not believe there is a scene in the whole movie that was not made to move us and make us think about what what was happening between and to these men. I can not think of one scene where I was not challenged to think of my own life and how I have lived it. It's called art folks, and it moves us. That's enough for me.

What he said.

[tpe]

Thanks everyone for the wonderful posts over the weekend.

I do have a comment about the rodeo clown episode.  I got to questioning myself as to what made this particularly unpleasant or disturbing.

I think many of us implicitly sees this scene initially in the light of Jack and Ennis.  By this, I mean that in this scene, we know that Jack has moved to Texas, probably hoping to forget Ennis and perhaps finding someone else to fill the void.  His advances to the rodeo clown brings to mind the success he had when making similar advances to Ennis during the summer of 63.   The fact that Jack is completely unsuccessful with the clown is in sharp contrast to how we saw Jack had succeeded earlier with Ennis.  In particular, I contrast this scene with the similar bar scene in Signal between Jack and Ennis.  And what a contrast!  It is perhaps this great difference that puts us off balance. 

[jackster]

Yes, very interesting comparing the Jack/rodeo clown scene with the Jack/Ennis in the bar and the Jack/FNIT scenes. These are wonderful pictures of a young, eager, and maybe somewhat blinded Jack. I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say here, but maybe Jack's early "success" with Ennis blinded him to the reality of trying to pickup up the rodeo clown in the middle of a packed bar full of cowboys. His friendship with Ennis happened and "deepened" when they were together and alone. Did Jack really think he could successfully come-on to that clown in the bar where he was known to a lot of other fellas? What a dreamer, but of course that's Jack. And of course this sets up the idea that Jack would possibly be just as blinded years later and not realize that his "friendship" with Randall or whoever might spark some violence against him.

[tpe]

Yes, very interesting comparing the Jack/rodeo clown scene with the Jack/Ennis in the bar and the Jack/FNIT scenes. These are wonderful pictures of a young, eager, and maybe somewhat blinded Jack. I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say here, but maybe Jack's early "success" with Ennis blinded him to the reality of trying to pickup up the rodeo clown in the middle of a packed bar full of cowboys. His friendship with Ennis happened and "deepened" when they were together and alone. Did Jack really think he could successfully come-on to that clown in the bar where he was known to a lot of other fellas? What a dreamer, but of course that's Jack. And of course this sets up the idea that Jack would possibly be just as blinded years later and not realize that his "friendship" with Randall or whoever might spark some violence against him.

Exactly.  Perhaps BOTH his success with Ennis, and his wanting to forget about him, drove Jack to try his luck with the rodeo clown.  It probably convinced him all the more that Ennis was a trare find, in spite of all his "problems".  His disappointment was palpable, and I think fear was also visible on his face.  All these juxtaposed elements combine to make the scene with the rodeo clown particularly unpleasant.  We measure it according to what came before...  Well, this and the preceeding scene between Jack and Aguirre were unpleasant, and we somehow empathize with Jack all the more, because it seemed like some sort of retribution for all the happiness that had gone before.

[jackster]

. . . It probably convinced him all the more that Ennis was a rare find, in spite of all his "problems". . .

I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!

[lancecowboy]

I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!

I think Jack must have been out of practice, after having been faithful (in his own limited way) to Ennis for twenty years. In the short story, and early in the movie, Jack was riding more than bulls. It doesn't say if he had sex with men or women in those rides, but he was not unfamiliar with the pickup scene.

In the clown scene, the misery on Jack's face was palpable before the clown walked in. When people are that lonely, they do stupid things, like an inadvertent pickup line in front of the bartender and a roomful of buddies. It also foreshadows his visit to Mexico later, when he was even more miserable. The introverted Ennis may be able to stand it, but the extroverted Jack needed to act on his needs; his judgment clouded by his turmoil.

I agree with you all that any experience Jack had with anyone else, only serves to remind him of Ennis' special qualities. That's what love does to people. That's why Jack said, Brokeback got us good.

[lamusica]

I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!

I, too, found the look on Jack's face to be difficult to read.  I just thought he was leary of Randall because it was too close to home.  Had he met Randall somewhere else, he might have jumped on his band wagon right away without any real thought. However, his wife ( and Randall's wife) were right inside the building, and I think the thought of discussing things with Randall was too dangerous.  Also, others were walking out the door and could have overheard.  But, perhaps his reluctance to look Randall in the eye was showing us more than just the fear.  He may have realized that he could have Randall, but what would that do to his relationship with Ennis.  Whatever he was thinking, he certainly was thinking hard.  He doesn't give Randall any kind of feedback that I can see.

[babytammy7]

Some people think that Jack was surprised for Randall proposition; some think that Jack didn't wanted to have "that" conversation right there, with people all 'round. Brokies think that 'cause of the stunned look in Jack face. But I can't see that stunned face; I only see sadness in his eyes. That man so new for him was talking about fishing trips and cabins, and Jack couldn't help thinking about the one who has shared a lot fishing trips with, the one he really was in love with, the one he couldn't have. I think Jack was thinking about Ennis right there, 'cause life was so ironic: there was a man who was trying to have "something" with Jack, without Jack looking for it, and the one Jack loved and looked for, was trying, in some way, to run away from those feelings......

Just MHO. 

[lamusica]

You're probably right, Baby T.  I think he was surprised, but wary, thinking about Ennis and what it would mean if her were to take up with another man.  I think that thought scared him.  Basically, he wasn't willing to take the chance that he and Ennis would be over. I think, when faced with a life-altering decision, most of us hesitate a bit to think about all the ramifications that come with change, mainly, is the change worth the trouble.  Was Jack so unhappy with the situation with Ennis as it stood at this point, or was it still something he could stand?  We know that he stood it for awhile, but when the scene of the final fight came, he was on the breaking point.  Had Randall asked him right then, he might have capitulated.  However, when he saw Ennis break down, he knew where he had to stay.

[tpe]

I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!

Yes, I did think that what made the Randall scene "different" was that we are used to seeing Jack being the instigator, no?  Of course, I suspect that this is the trait that made some unmentionable people call Jack a predator when BBM first came out.  But to see the tables turned -- seeing him on the receiving end -- was quite discomfiting, no?

[tpe]

I think Jack must have been out of practice, after having been faithful (in his own limited way) to Ennis for twenty years. In the short story, and early in the movie, Jack was riding more than bulls. It doesn't say if he had sex with men or women in those rides, but he was not unfamiliar with the pickup scene.

In the clown scene, the misery on Jack's face was palpable before the clown walked in. When people are that lonely, they do stupid things, like an inadvertent pickup line in front of the bartender and a roomful of buddies. It also foreshadows his visit to Mexico later, when he was even more miserable. The introverted Ennis may be able to stand it, but the extroverted Jack needed to act on his needs; his judgment clouded by his turmoil.

I agree with you all that any experience Jack had with anyone else, only serves to remind him of Ennis' special qualities. That's what love does to people. That's why Jack said, Brokeback got us good.

I must say that what makes the clown scene distasteful is what you have just said here -- that it was a low point for Jack, and he was indeed miserable.  He probably thought that his seeing Ennis had come to an end, and it made him especially vulnerable from both within and without.  We see this doubnle vulnerability in the bar scene with the rodeo clown...

[tpe]

I, too, found the look on Jack's face to be difficult to read.  I just thought he was leary of Randall because it was too close to home.  Had he met Randall somewhere else, he might have jumped on his band wagon right away without any real thought. However, his wife ( and Randall's wife) were right inside the building, and I think the thought of discussing things with Randall was too dangerous.  Also, others were walking out the door and could have overheard.  But, perhaps his reluctance to look Randall in the eye was showing us more than just the fear.  He may have realized that he could have Randall, but what would that do to his relationship with Ennis.  Whatever he was thinking, he certainly was thinking hard.  He doesn't give Randall any kind of feedback that I can see.

I think some of us thought that at that moment, Jack was probably thinking of Ennis, the same way he was probably thinking of him suring the first dance with Lureen.  If one thought of it this way, then the scene with Randall becomes especially distasteful, given that Jack must have been uncomfortable -- perhaps a part of him wanting to let go, whereas a part of him holding on to what he truly felt deep inside.

[tpe]

Some people think that Jack was surprised for Randall proposition; some think that Jack didn't wanted to have "that" conversation right there, with people all 'round. Brokies think that 'cause of the stunned look in Jack face. But I can't see that stunned face; I only see sadness in his eyes. That man so new for him was talking about fishing trips and cabins, and Jack couldn't help thinking about the one who has shared a lot fishing trips with, the one he really was in love with, the one he couldn't have. I think Jack was thinking about Ennis right there, 'cause life was so ironic: there was a man who was trying to have "something" with Jack, without Jack looking for it, and the one Jack loved and looked for, was trying, in some way, to run away from those feelings......

Just MHO. 

Beautifully said, Tammy.  Yes, this was how I felt about this scene also, which is why my reaction to it also relfects a great deal of sadness -- a sadness that I do seem to see in Jack's eyes at that moment, the same way we see it when he first danced with Lureen.

[Matt Nasty]

i didnt disslike any scenes but there are some i wish i had never seen because its too sad

[babytammy7]

Well, for me there is an especially hard scene that I don't like. In fact, I almost hate it and I try to avoid it. Jack being beaten.That's the most painful, horrible, sad and cruel thing I've ever seen. UNBEARABLE.

[lamusica]

I hate that one, too, but then I realized that scene just played out in Ennis's mind.  There's no proof that it really happened.  So, I choose to think it didn't.  You can call that avoidance but it works for me!

[Tony]

     I guess am ready to return to these threads.  As usual, and as before, am in the position of challenging people taking things for granted.
The rodeo clown scene.  Everybody is just assuming Jack was coming on to that guy and this just tells me people are bringing along a lot of
baggage to their viewing of the characters.
   Males have tribal needs, to talk to, and get along with other males, and this is true, gay, straight, or bi.   In fact, most taverns are full of....
males, trying to get along with...other males.  Jack was alone.  Striking up a conversation with the clown that distracted the bull...was normal.
Sheesh, if he wanted to cruise, he coulda done a lot better than that jerk.
  The ONLY sense that something was wrong, was from the clown.  And there, he HAD other friends (around the pool table) and Jack HAD
broken the code of the west (being overly friendly).  And Jack stalked out not because he was shot down in some sexual advance (and please
tell me where that was), but because yet ANOTHER male was judging him as a pissant.
  Please, it is not established Jack was making a pass.  He certainly didn't with Randall, but was, instead---paralyzed, when social talk turned
sexual.  But this take on the clown scene is, once again, to make Jack aggressively gay, rather than a lonely person.  Baggage.  Unproven.

[babytammy7]

I agree with you Tony. I've always thought that Jack, needing as always the company of another human being, only wanted to shared a drink. He was so alone in that town, so why not to have a friend?. That is why I always didn't like that asshole: I just didn't understand why he was so "scared" and shocked, 'cause Jack was only being grateful and nice. And I say grateful 'cause if a man save my life from to die kicked by a bull, then I would invite him more than a beer. That's for sure. So Jack was only doing the right thing. But as you say I guess west code means to be a rough person; I don't know. I think today would be the contrary: Jack the kind right man and that jerk, just a jerk.

[Tony]

   Thanks for agreeing, BabyTammy, but a major OUCH!  In returning to these threads, I was a little too insensitive.  Those who posted
assuming the clown scene was a sexual overture, happen to be people I admire.  And their "take" is OK.  I guess I just didn't think, in posting
so strong of an opinion.  I hope they will consider the times we are in, and that I do regret that I did a belly-flop in how I worded what I said.

[lamusica]

Oh, Tony, no harm done.  Your opinion is always welcome here.  I try to see it your way, but just can't.  The way Jack eyed the clown before the clown came up to the bar is my clue that he didn't see him as just a possible friend.  But then, I may be projecting what I would think if someone looked at me in that manner.  I know that is not just a friendly look-- the over the shoulder, head hunkered down, eyes cast to the side look.  That is flirtatious in my book.  But it doesn't bother me at all that you see it differently.
   I remember posting once that I thought in the very beginning when Ennis and Jack first went up BBM, Jack was just looking for friendship and, BOY, was I cut down!  So, we all have our own opinions, than God, and are welcome to them.  Afterall, there is no right or wrong here -- no higher power to prove one way or another.

[Matt Nasty]

Well, for me there is an especially hard scene that I don't like. In fact, I almost hate it and I try to avoid it. Jack being beaten.That's the most painful, horrible, sad and cruel thing I've ever seen. UNBEARABLE.

yer i agree but again i didnt dislike it it was just very hard to watch and accept. i feel bad that there are still guys out there who are like me in that they are straight but they could take someones life for being a little differen. i discovered that there isnt a point in the film were you can turn it off to give it a happy ending not 1 but i suppose the film would have lost its power if it was all chipper.

in regards to jack and the clown i wondered about that too but then i decided i think he was just being friendly or maybe he wanted sex i dont think it was a relationship he was after i have to tell myself that jack cant of liked the other men he loved only ennis and when he slept with the guy in mexico he just wanted reminded of ennis there was no love there. god ive got PBS real bad

[jackster]

. . . .Everybody is just assuming Jack was coming on to that guy and this just tells me people are bringing along a lot of
baggage to their viewing of the characters.
 . . .  Please, it is not established Jack was making a pass.  He certainly didn't with Randall, but was, instead---paralyzed, when social talk turned
sexual.  But this take on the clown scene is, once again, to make Jack aggressively gay, rather than a lonely person.  Baggage.  Unproven.

Sorry Tony, really gotta go with the Jack “pick-up” view here. Just stepping back for a minute, why else put that scene in the film? Just to show that Jack was lonely? Seems there would have been some easier (and less confusing) ways to do this. It looks to me that the intent was to show Jack not only lonely, but also on the prowl for a companion, a male companion. And then there is the not uncoincidental resemblance of dress and stature between the clown and Ennis. Compare this scene with Jack’s very reluctant meeting with Lureen, “What are you waiting for cowboy?” He didn’t wait around for an introduction with the clown, no sir, moved over and put his money right out there on the bar. Jack (the dreamer) wasn’t thinking that the clown of course was probably a regular local and knew a lot guys in the place, ain’t no way he’s gonna go walkin’ out with Jack while his friends are standing over there. JMO

[Tony]

    Hi, Jackster---I could see the pick-up take more credible, except it was so open.  Whatever Jack may or may not have done that was
seductive with Ennis, before FNIT, it was in a closed, safe, environment.  Even in the alley in Mexico, he knew where he was, and was not
flamboyant.  With Randall, he just kind of sat there....duh.....on his face, then, very, very careful.  So all these others point to a Jack, whatever
his sexuality, that knew it had to be hidden.
   Why was the scene included, then?  Perhaps to show how he didn't fit in with the code of the west.  Why, please, was the scene included
where the guy describes him as a "piss-ant"?  If you question the one, then why not the other?
  I guess both takes are a dead-even stand-off.  Yours is supportable, and I believe mine is, too.  Best deal would be to say neither are established,
at least not in the sense, for example, that Jack made the first move in FNIT.
  What really brings me to my own conclusion are the long years I spent at the neighborhood taverns.  Jack's behavior would not have been seen
as a come-on.  The clown's response would have marked him as...a jerk.
  Even so, I will look much closer the next time I see the DVD.  You are observant, and there's stuff I may have missed.
 

[manhattangirl]

The clown scene and meeting Lureen you can look at it in many different ways.  Jackster makes very good points so does Tony.   Those two scene in themselves have a lot of meaning.  Social standing and cultural differences, what was the difference between roping calves and riding bulls, what in heck did that mean? 

Was Jack coming on too strong with the clown, that he held it back with Lureen?   Was it,her social standing, or making another misstep that he was leery in approaching her?  There was a code underneath that Jack was not familiar with.   His openness almost made him seem like a hick.   He was the pissant in that fancy suit.   

Jack may have try to come on to the clown, but there were landmines in a society he wasn't familiar with, an undiscovered country, that he had to work his way through.  Remember in the ss Jack was almost speaking another language in the way he prononce his words.   He adapted the Texan way of talking.  Jack changed his dress, his way of speaking, even growing the mustache.   Ennis on the other hand was still the same no change at all, he kept his meager possessions in a sack, the same way he did at nineteen he did at thirty-nine. 

I'm going off the beaten path, sorry. 

[tpe]

Well, for me there is an especially hard scene that I don't like. In fact, I almost hate it and I try to avoid it. Jack being beaten.That's the most painful, horrible, sad and cruel thing I've ever seen. UNBEARABLE.

Oh God.

[tpe]

Interesting exchanges about the rodeo clown scene. 

In any case, all opinions are certainly welcome. 

I don't particularly "hate" that scene, but I really feel sorry for Jack everytime I see it.

[lamusica]

I find any scene in which Jack is rejected to be hard to swallow.  However, this may be because Jake G. is playing the part.  Were the actor some less appealing person, less handsome, less engaging, it might not be so bad, but, then, we wouldn't all love Jack as much as we do, and the impact of the whole movie may have been different.

I keep wondering what I would think or how I would feel had I read the short story first, then seen the movie.  I think there would be a difference.  I would still feel for Jack, but would I be devastated by that scene?  Hmmmmmm......

[jackster]

    Hi, Jackster---I could see the pick-up take more credible, except it was so open.  Whatever Jack may or may not have done that was seductive with Ennis, before FNIT, it was in a closed, safe, environment.  . . .  I guess both takes are a dead-even stand-off.  Yours is supportable, and I believe mine is, too.  Best deal would be to say neither are established . . .

Yeah, it's all guessing the number of angels that'll fit on the head of pin, so your right - we're both right. I was never any good at the bar pick-up scene anyway, so I'm sure no expert here on what Jack did do or shoulda' done to score, or whether he was even trying to score. It just looks like that to me and the clowns reaction made me think he thought the same thing too. I probably should of mentioned that I was possibly influenced by an earlier movie script in which the guys at the pool table actually follow Jack outside and begin taunting him while he drives off. This was wisely in my opinion NOT included in the film.