Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[atalley]

Wonder what Ennis would've said if the girls weren't there.  I guess he'd have thought of some other excuse.

[smartestsonia]

I wonder myself if things would have been different in that scene had Jack been a bit more insistent.  But I guess he never was that way -- never wanting to push Ennis against his will.  Pehaps he should have...

Yes, this is one of the most painful scenes to watch...

he dint have to push him or made him feel horrible..Jack could have just told him how he feels..atleast that would made things better and Ennis would realize that and meet him some time soon...

My heart goes out to Jack

[tpe]

Yes,in this sense of deciding something about their present and future,I think this is one of the decisive moments in the story.The other,for me,is when they come down from the mountain and nothing is said about what to do after that moment.Everything is said with the eyes,but not with the mouth...

This and the farewell scene after it are significant because they could have fixed things right there -- with Ennis perhaps agreeing to live in closer proximity with Jack -- if not living together.  Had Ennis changed his mind about marriage with Alma, perhaps things would have been very different...

[tpe]

Wonder what Ennis would've said if the girls weren't there.  I guess he'd have thought of some other excuse.

Most likely.  It wasn;t the girls, to be sure...

[tpe]

he dint have to push him or made him feel horrible..Jack could have just told him how he feels..atleast that would made things better and Ennis would realize that and meet him some time soon...

My heart goes out to Jack

Yes, had they not allowed 4 years of silence to intervene between them, who knows what could have happened?

[atalley]

Yeah...if I had driven 14 hrs. one way, there's no way I would just get in the truck and turn around and go straight back!

[smartestsonia]

Yes, had they not allowed 4 years of silence to intervene between them, who knows what could have happened?

it would have been a completey different story then....

[smartestsonia]

Yeah...if I had driven 14 hrs. one way, there's no way I would just get in the truck and turn around and go straight back!

I swear...same here... I can relate to what u say as I speak my heart out..however,,that silence between Ennis and Jack created a slight distance between them :\'(

[tpe]

I think the physical distance bred miscommunication.  And I am not sure if in the scene in question, Ennis fully grasped the significance of the 14 hr drive.  Bridging that enormous physical distance should have told him something -- but he mistook it for something purely logistical, and not symbolically -- in terms of communicating on a totally different plane.

[myprivatejack]

I don't like specially any scene,like this of the 14 hours driving,that shows a real lack of verbal communication between them.Every time their future together could have been solved and was not makes me sad and angry at the same time... :\'(   

[atalley]

I love your little "ticked off guy"...brings a much needed smile.  How could Ennis not think about the 14 hr. drive?  It seems crazy to me...14 LONG hrs.!  And to see each other for what...5 mtes.?

[tpe]

I think Jack was just too excited to try to write to him about his coming up for a visit -- it definitely caught Ennis by surprise.  I would even think that Jack hopped into his truck the minute he read the postcard from Ennis...  Well, perhaps Jack knew that Ennis had moved, and that he would not be reachable from his old address in any case...

I somehow think that Ennis had no conception of the distance Jack had to travel -- having never traveled such distances himself.  The visit to LF must have been a real journey for him, given that he stayed pretty much where he was.

[myprivatejack]

I think that this scene dislikes not only for seeing Jack so disappointed and sad,but because it's a proof of both selfishness.Yes,Jack was very generous by driving so many hours for being with the man he loved; that's a generosity's act,because he didn't think in himself,in the troubles and tiredness that this could bring to him...But,at the same time,he was shellfish because he took for granted that Ennis would run to him immediately,no matter his situation,no matter even if this was Jack's wishes,not necessarily Ennis in that moment.
And Ennis...well,Ennis was shellfish and,IMO,stupid,because he didn't realise the effort his friend had done to be with him; no matter what they decided after,at least Jack had the right of spending some time by his side.And I bet he didn't either think about what the news meant for Jack and that he was,somehow,obliged to look for a solution,and think a little more in Jack and not so much in himself and his fears.JMHO.

[LuvJackNasty]

Right, MPJ. Jack just rode up there on his own when all Ennis did was send him a postcard (in the movie- in the SS it was a phone call) to give him the news and Jack made his own assumptions. Both are to "blame" for this. I can see Jack's excitement thinking "finally!" because in his mind, I guess, he thought Alma was the true reason they couldn't be together and no marriage= no problem. He knew about Rich and Earl so does that mean he didn't take that story to heart or would rather just roll the dice and be with Ennis no matter what could happen?

[myprivatejack]

Right, MPJ. Jack just rode up there on his own when all Ennis did was send him a postcard (in the movie- in the SS it was a phone call) to give him the news and Jack made his own assumptions. Both are to "blame" for this. I can see Jack's excitement thinking "finally!" because in his mind, I guess, he thought Alma was the true reason they couldn't be together and no marriage= no problem. He knew about Rich and Earl so does that mean he didn't take that story to heart or would rather just roll the dice and be with Ennis no matter what could happen?

Yes,I agree in that Jack thought that the main reason of avoiding this "sweet life together" was Ennis marriage;in a little simplistic way,no more marriage,no more problems to take Alma's place...He didn't realise that Rich and Earl's story had got a deepest impact in his friend's life than he could imagine.Or he did,but-as every person in love-thought that by seeing him every day giving him all his love and support would be enough as to forget all the past shocks.JMHO.

[tpe]

I think that this scene dislikes not only for seeing Jack so disappointed and sad,but because it's a proof of both selfishness.Yes,Jack was very generous by driving so many hours for being with the man he loved; that's a generosity's act,because he didn't think in himself,in the troubles and tiredness that this could bring to him...But,at the same time,he was shellfish because he took for granted that Ennis would run to him immediately,no matter his situation,no matter even if this was Jack's wishes,not necessarily Ennis in that moment.
And Ennis...well,Ennis was shellfish and,IMO,stupid,because he didn't realise the effort his friend had done to be with him; no matter what they decided after,at least Jack had the right of spending some time by his side.And I bet he didn't either think about what the news meant for Jack and that he was,somehow,obliged to look for a solution,and think a little more in Jack and not so much in himself and his fears.JMHO.

Right, MPJ. Jack just rode up there on his own when all Ennis did was send him a postcard (in the movie- in the SS it was a phone call) to give him the news and Jack made his own assumptions. Both are to "blame" for this. I can see Jack's excitement thinking "finally!" because in his mind, I guess, he thought Alma was the true reason they couldn't be together and no marriage= no problem. He knew about Rich and Earl so does that mean he didn't take that story to heart or would rather just roll the dice and be with Ennis no matter what could happen?

Well, I don't exactly look at Jack's assumption as selfish.  For one, he was led to believe that this was the impediment that barred them from the dream of a sweet life -- if we recall their conversation up the mountains after the reunion scene.  Perhaps we may call him slightly presumptuous (which I really don't buy, also) rather than selfish.  If there was a fault in what he did, it was perhaps not being more insistent.  Perhaps -- as others had said -- he should have been more confrontational at that point....  Who knows if things would have really changed at that point?

[babytammy7]

Well, I don't exactly look at Jack's assumption as selfish.  For one, he was led to believe that this was the impediment that barred them from the dream of a sweet life -- if we recall their conversation up the mountains after the reunion scene.  Perhaps we may call him slightly presumptuous (which I really don't buy, also) rather than selfish.  If there was a fault in what he did, it was perhaps not being more insistent.  Perhaps -- as others had said -- he should have been more confrontational at that point....  Who knows if things would have really changed at that point?

Totally agree with this, Thomas. 

[smartestsonia]

I feel Ennis did ignore Jack for a while ..he dint realize that jack has come such a long way to be with him and all he did was like say that he cant be with him...I feel dam bad for jack. the look in his eye when ennis was telling him that he cant spend time with him....Jack was not selfish..infact so many instances he inisted on them being together and all but Ennis fears came in the way,,jack did let it be,,,he never forced him or pressurized him...ya he did have regret in his heart and when they fought in the climax it all came out....

[tpe]

Thanks Tammy!

smartestsonia, I suspect that Ennis was simply confused and mentally unprepared for Jack's unexpected visit.  Perhaps this would have been different had Jack had somehow been able to give Ennis advance notice (without Ennis dissuading him, of course.) 

Another thing is that Ennis looked unusually paranoid right after the divorce -- I won't blame him: perhaps he even suspected that Alma knew.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that iot was all quite horrible for Jack.  We don't feel less sorry for him.

[LuvJackNasty]

Well, I don't exactly look at Jack's assumption as selfish.  For one, he was led to believe that this was the impediment that barred them from the dream of a sweet life -- if we recall their conversation up the mountains after the reunion scene.  Perhaps we may call him slightly presumptuous (which I really don't buy, also) rather than selfish.  If there was a fault in what he did, it was perhaps not being more insistent.  Perhaps -- as others had said -- he should have been more confrontational at that point....  Who knows if things would have really changed at that point?

I do think Jack acted on pure excitement when he received word of the divorce. how could he not? That was like finding out you just won the lottery. And surely they were due to meet at some point, so why didn't Ennis wait until then? News out of the blue like that would have signaled change, so I can totally see Jack thinking it was "code" for "the sweet life is here." But that is also not Ennis's fault either, he was just reaching out to his friend.  I don't know if things would have changed if he had been more confrontational then. I mean if he had pitched a fit right there, that would have been trouble because the girls were there. But even if he quietly pulled Ennis aside and made a comment such as "I'm going to be around. Can you see me after you drop the girls off?" I don't think that would have worked for him either. There was just too much revealed there with not a word really being said. How do you fight ghosts? Selfish is a harsh word but at times love is selfish though not always in a bad way, if that makes sense.

[tpe]

I do think Jack acted on pure excitement when he received word of the divorce. how could he not? That was like finding out you just won the lottery. And surely they were due to meet at some point, so why didn't Ennis wait until then? News out of the blue like that would have signaled change, so I can totally see Jack thinking it was "code" for "the sweet life is here." But that is also not Ennis's fault either, he was just reaching out to his friend.  I don't know if things would have changed if he had been more confrontational then. I mean if he had pitched a fit right there, that would have been trouble because the girls were there. But even if he quietly pulled Ennis aside and made a comment such as "I'm going to be around. Can you see me after you drop the girls off?" I don't think that would have worked for him either. There was just too much revealed there with not a word really being said. How do you fight ghosts? Selfish is a harsh word but at times love is selfish though not always in a bad way, if that makes sense.

It makes sense.  But I would regard this form of selfishness as "blindness".

[LuvJackNasty]

I agree 

[myprivatejack]

I agree with your words,Michelle,specially when you say:Selfish is a harsh word but at times love is selfish though not always in a bad way, if that makes sense. Maybe I used a too harsh word,I do admit, but it's true that love makes us selfish more times than it would be advisable.The same wish for having and being with the loved person avoid us to realize if we're hurting them or,at least,disturbing them somehow...And that's what I meant by saying that Jack was kind of selfish because he put his enormous wish of living with Ennis far in front of his lover's needs,his duties with his girls,his own and private "rhythm" in doing changes in his life.I don't know it this makes sense,but I hope having explained myself a little well...

[LuvJackNasty]

You explained it well MPJ. That's how I took it initially- the selfishness didn't stem from malice but from love. When we love someone sometimes we are selfish and even greedy in wanting more time with them. That's another not so nice word but it's not a bad intent.

[smartestsonia]

Thanks Tammy!

smartestsonia, I suspect that Ennis was simply confused and mentally unprepared for Jack's unexpected visit.  Perhaps this would have been different had Jack had somehow been able to give Ennis advance notice (without Ennis dissuading him, of course.) 

Another thing is that Ennis looked unusually paranoid right after the divorce -- I won't blame him: perhaps he even suspected that Alma knew.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that iot was all quite horrible for Jack.  We don't feel less sorry for him.

I agree thomas, that he was suspecting the alma knew and all....Ennis was not confused..what I meant was that he just wanted to be away from him abit as he has his kids around....so he was caught up in this mess and so he kept Jack away....all this made things bad for Jack and hampered their relation in the latter years...

[tpe]

Perhaps it was the presence of the children that made Ennis unusually nervous?

Then again, whne the truck drives by, his attention is momentarily diverted, even as he talks to Jack.  Somemembers have suggested that he might have thought this to be Alma driving past, and the possibility of him seeing Jack disturbed him.

Whether or not this is true, it highlights Ennis's intense paranio at that moment -- casued perhaps by the presence of others who may "read" him only too well.

[myprivatejack]

Perhaps it was the presence of the children that made Ennis unusually nervous?

Then again, whne the truck drives by, his attention is momentarily diverted, even as he talks to Jack.  Somemembers have suggested that he might have thought this to be Alma driving past, and the possibility of him seeing Jack disturbed him.

Whether or not this is true, it highlights Ennis's intense paranio at that moment -- casued perhaps by the presence of others who may "read" him only too well.

I think the presence of whoever could in this situation and moment make Ennis unusually nervous.The example is this,how he's looking to the truck passing by the road,as if "everybody knows it"-his own words some years after...-.May the driver be Alma or not,may the girls suspect something or not,the question is that Ennis felt then "naked" in front of the society somehow,as if he was carrying a label in his head saying "You're queer".And he was not prepared to allow this to himself.

[smartestsonia]

I think the presence of whoever could in this situation and moment make Ennis unusually nervous.The example is this,how he's looking to the truck passing by the road,as if "everybody knows it"-his own words some years after...-.May the driver be Alma or not,may the girls suspect something or not,the question is that Ennis felt then "naked" in front of the society somehow,as if he was carrying a label in his head saying "You're queer".And he was not prepared to allow this to himself.

this is so true...now i can understand better as to why Ennis did tell jack to go away...Honestly we all know the reality as to why they behaved the way they did..we all wish that things could have been better or they would be more receptive to make the situation better,,but there were too many fears and issues to be faced which prohibited them from being more open and expressive

[tpe]

Definitely true -- the unknown driver could very well stand for society at large -- and a nosey, disapproving society, at that.

Over the years, I have also come to dislike that particular detail of the truck driving by because for some reason, it vaguely reminds me of the opening scene of the truck bringing Ennis to Signal, and the later scene when Ennis drives home from LF...

[smartestsonia]

Definitely true -- the unknown driver could very well stand for society at large -- and a nosey, disapproving society, at that.

Over the years, I have also come to dislike that particular detail of the truck driving by because for some reason, it vaguely reminds me of the opening scene of the truck bringing Ennis to Signal, and the later scene when Ennis drives home from LF...

ya his kids were around so he wanted to be careful...the truck driver could be watching him..see when one holds a secret in his heart and he wants to hide it from all somewhere the fear is all the time or u can say unconsciously within him of being caught or in Ennis case being killed..so the fear made him feel that everyone is watching him and judging him....both go through so much pain....wish they were born in our times and wish no Ennis and Jack today have to suffer this way...