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Author Topic: Why a diferent title? You like it?  (Read 11835 times)

babytammy7

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Why a diferent title? You like it?
« on: Aug 29, 2007, 08:34 AM »
Hello dear Brokies!!

Well I don't speak english so SORRY SO MUCH FOR MY HORRIBLE ENGLISH!!! I hope you can understand what I try to say....... ^f^

I saw here in several posts that BBM is called or titled (sorry I don't know how to say it....... :-\\) over all around the world: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN LOVE IS A FORCE OF NATURE.. It occurs too in countries where people doesn`t speak english like Italy, Greece, Brazil, etc; but it occurs too even in countries where people speak spanish like me, like México, Argentina, Panamá.....
However in my country, Spain, this so beautiful movie is called: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN TO LOVE WITHOUT FEAR, but in Spanish of course. Woooouuuu, so diferent, true? But so beautiful indeed.

I don't know and I don't understand why Spain is the only country in the world that calls BBM in this way, but I like it so much  <^( 
I mean, LOVE IS A FORCE OF NATURE is so perfect and so true 'cause love is the most powerful, huge and strong thing that exist in life, and if you have fear or if you don't want to love, it doesn't matter 'cause love will devastate all your entire world, your prejudices, your dudes.....'Cause love doesn't distinguish between sex, doesn't care if you are gay or straight, it's a incredible force that change your life and you soul forever though you fight against it. The forces of nature men can't stop them.
However TO LOVE WITHOUT FEAR is a very very very good title too, 'cause Jack gave us an important lesson of life: He always loved without fear......he always loved with his whole heart, with his whole mind, with his all strength, but always, always WITHOUT FEAR  :\'(  And I think the title is too valid for Ennis' life, 'cause that sentence is saying that all of us have to love without fear: we have to be braves, we have to fight, we have to defend the things we love if we don't want to waste our lifes, if we don't want to loose the happiness and all those beautiful and important things that make us breathing and carry on, if we don't want to be regreting forever.....
Well I don't know if this makes any sense..... ^*()

Oh, so sorry, really, my english is abstract so I don't know if I expressed myself good for you....... :-\\

I would like to know what you think about the spanish title please!!!

A lot of kisses from Spain  :^^) You know, my home is your home too if you come to Spain some day in the future!!! ^f^


              Tammy
« Last Edit: Sep 05, 2007, 10:43 AM by babytammy7 »
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Offline ethan

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #1 on: Aug 29, 2007, 09:40 AM »
Tammy, your English is just fine. I understand everything you said.

It is interesting. I just knew this by reading your thread. I personally like "Love is a Force of Nature." It is nature which nothing can be done about it, just like the love between Ennis and Jack. It just happens and one can't deny it.

On the other hand, "to love without fear" certainly fits Jack and Ennis's relationship as you suggested.

I guess "Love is a force of nature" covers a love story that is universal whereas "to love without fear" seems to be limited to certain types of relationship.

I am curious to know if "love is a force of nature" in Spanish makes any sense,
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #2 on: Aug 29, 2007, 09:51 AM »
 Hello,Tammy, welcome to our forum,compatriot¡I agree with all you and Ethan in all what you say about the meaning of the two tittles,because is as real as life itself...I know another one in France, that is "The secrets of Brokeback Mountain",that is also quite real but seems a little more "moralist",doesn´t it?However,I see here in Spain as subtittle "In interdicted ground",which fits well to the plot-each one of them is interdicted ground for the other according to moral rules...-,but perhaps is as moralists as the other.
Yes,Ethan,"to be a force of nature" makes sense in Spanish,meaning something that is so strong as any meteorogical phenomenon we can find in Nature.And also is a person who has a lot of strenght,energy or capacity to do something difficult.Your teacher has spoken...
« Last Edit: Aug 29, 2007, 10:04 AM by myprivatejack »
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

babytammy7

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #3 on: Aug 30, 2007, 03:40 AM »
Ethan, of course, in Spain LOVE IS A FORCE OF NATURE makes sense, in a powerful way, really!!! Like I said before, it means "love is the most powerful, huge and strong thing that exist in life", and if you want to fight against it you will just lose 'cause you don't have enough force to do anything about it or change the situation 'cause it just happens and it is inevitable; so I think as you said that is the real good title for the movie!!! <^(
Ethan thank you so much for all your incredible work creating this beautiful forum!!! %) This forum means a lot for me!!!

MPJ, thank you for your answer and your welcome!!! It's so nice meet a compatriot here  :clap: I hope see you soon around the spanish' board!!!

A big kiss sweeties!!! :^^)
« Last Edit: Sep 01, 2007, 08:46 AM by babytammy7 »
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #4 on: Aug 30, 2007, 06:34 AM »
 :h) We see in the Spanish or the English´board,I don´t mind,but it´s sure we´ll see¡


a BIG KISS TOO¡ :-*
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #5 on: Aug 30, 2007, 07:13 AM »
Thanks Tammy for starting this thread.

I wonder what prompted the change from "Love is a Force of Nature" to "To Love without Fear".  Certainly, either one makes perfect sense as far as the movie is concerned, but they do seem to suggest different aspects of the story, as Ethan pointed out.

I can guess what the Spanish translations of both phrases would look like, and either one sounds pretty good.  So I still wonder what prompted them to change from one to the other.

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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #6 on: Aug 30, 2007, 12:37 PM »
Well,the" problem" is that,as I´ve said in my former post,the real title for the movie in Spain was "Brokeback Mountain-En terreno vedado",or "Brokeback Mountain/In interdicted ground";"Love is a force of nature" is a kind of subtitle or publicity phrase.In any case,I don[ t understand why they made these changes...
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lamusica

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #7 on: Aug 30, 2007, 02:13 PM »
All those titles mentioned in Spanish sound reasonable to me.  However, I just think of the actual title as Brokeback Mountain.  I think that says it all.  The weight of the movie actually is enough to break your back.  The sadness, the loneliness, the weight of their love -- these are all heavy, deep emotions which can and often do cause emotional breakdowns in people.  In this movie, they are so profound they can break the strongest material, i,e ROCk -- a mountain.  That is the symbolism I have always detected in the title.  The mountain could have had any name, but Brokeback was perfect for all those meanings.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #8 on: Aug 31, 2007, 07:16 AM »
Quote from: lamusica on Aug 30, 2007, 02:13 PM
All those titles mentioned in Spanish sound reasonable to me.  However, I just think of the actual title as Brokeback Mountain.  I think that says it all.  The weight of the movie actually is enough to break your back.  The sadness, the loneliness, the weight of their love -- these are all heavy, deep emotions which can and often do cause emotional breakdowns in people.  In this movie, they are so profound they can break the strongest material, i,e ROCk -- a mountain.  That is the symbolism I have always detected in the title.  The mountain could have had any name, but Brokeback was perfect for all those meanings.

I agree, although I must admit that En terreno vedado doesn't sit well with me at all.  It conjures up a feeling of guilt, where I would think of the Mountain as the place where they found freedom and happiness. And "interdict" of course has religious connotations from me, stemming from old Canon Law of the Catholic Church, when the popes or bishops could put entire nations and populations under a "ban".

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babytammy7

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #9 on: Aug 31, 2007, 08:03 AM »
Hello again Tpe, Lamusica and MPJ!!!

Thank you very much for your anwers!!!  :clap:

MPJ you said BBM in Spain is called BBM -In interdicted ground -To love without fear, but the film is really called here BBM- Close Range- To love without fear. En terreno vedado is Close Range's traslation, and this is also the name of the Annie's SS, you know: Close Range: Wyoming Stories, so is not too bad to title the film like the short story, 'cause Annie thought that every story she wrote happened in a hard, rough and prohibitive time and place (Wyoming) that was like a close range.....

So the spanish title is saying the love between Ennis and Jack is in close range so they have to love without fear!!!But not only Close range refering to the social oppression, but talking about  Ennis and Jack's difficulty to express each other their love!!!

Tpe, I don't think that En terreno vedado alludes to the mountain....I think it is about Ennis and Jack's lifes and love. Besides, in the SS there is a paragraph (last confontation scene) where Annie says that Ennis was walking into close range when he asked Jack about México (aaaahhhhhh I don't know if you understand me...why do I not speak english?  :-\\ ). Please take a look on that, I know I read that, really!!! So Close Range in the title can means too the close range between things they knew (fears, pain...) and the things they didn't know (secrets, infidelities, true and unspoken love....). What do you think?

« Last Edit: Sep 26, 2007, 11:24 AM by babytammy7 »
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #10 on: Aug 31, 2007, 12:38 PM »
 :h) Hi again,Tammy¡I told you we´d find ourselves again¡Well,doubtless you know more English than me,because I translated directly from the Spanish "En terreno vedado"([ground means the earth,doesn´t it?),although I haven´t read the AP book in original version,so I didn´t know if it was "Close Range"...Soooooorry.
Nevertheless,it´s true tpe,that something that implies a prohibition or an enclosure(real or moral) has a connotation of guilt,of being signaled for the Divine finger...And in any case,be "Close Range" or "In interdicted ground",I really don´t like here in Spain they have put a double tittle,when with "Brokeback Mountain" it would be enough;although I understand the intentions of AP when naming it so and also what you says,Tammy,about that"close range"can also mean that things-this ground-in which they never have entered by fear or incommunication.
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2007, 01:06 PM by myprivatejack »
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lamusica

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #11 on: Aug 31, 2007, 04:06 PM »
Now, I am WAAAAAYYYY confused!  Well, I agree with you, Thomas, that the word "interdicted" is extremely negative in English.  Maybe, In Spanish, it has additional meanings that are more acceptable?  I don't know.  I always think of it as you explained -- an old church pronouncement of something forbidden and evil.  I certainly cannot think of Ennis/Jack in those terms, so would have to reject that title if that is, indeed, what it means.  As I stated before, I don't need anything more than the two word title that seems to stay intact in all languages -- Brokeback Mountain.
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #12 on: Aug 31, 2007, 04:18 PM »
Sorry if you´re confused for my horrible English;I don´t want to drive you crazy... :i    I must say that "vedado" in Spanish has two differents meanings:one who refers to something close,like a place to put the cattle in,but in the open air,where one cannot enterto wo;and the other,more ideological,that refers to something that is forbidden.For example,walking alone on the streets is "vedado"to women in some Moorish countries(sorry one more time if now I´ve offended someone,this time for nationalist reasons...).
Is obvious,then,that metaphorically speaking,Jack and Ennis were walking "on the wild side",because they were in a "terreno vedado","close range","interdicted ground"or how one want to call it,and we coul add that each one of them was tv,cr or ig for the other if we see from an homophobic point of view.Have you understand anything?.I hope so,for your sanity...
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2007, 04:32 PM by myprivatejack »
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lamusica

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #13 on: Sep 01, 2007, 04:01 PM »
Don't worry, myprivate.  Your English is fantastic and your point of view is great.  This is a complicated subject.  That's all I meant.  Jack and Ennis could be condemned by many people and cultures, but we know they did nothing wrong.  That's a complicated situation.  They could have been hurt or killed for what they felt for each other -- LOVE -- which is supposed to be the highest moral value in the world.  This is all so confusing.  So, when you throw in a word such as vedado, and the meaning CAN BE construed as "forbidden", we can understand some people feeling that way, although we brokies find that thought odious.  Then you have the religious meaning of "interdicted".  That only has bad connotations to Catholics, especially modern Catholics who rebel against the idea of the Church claiming that people will go to hell if they profess certain beliefs or do certain things the Church considers to be immoral.  That's the meaning of the word in English that sets us off, I think.
Keep posting, please.  You have such great ideas and we really can understand you very well.  You are a gifted linguist.
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #14 on: Sep 02, 2007, 10:54 AM »
 :t) :-*
Well,you have really made me become vain with your nice words to me...Don´t insist on my keep on posting or you´ll have an enormous headache¡ :8
Seriously speaking(I didn´t speak making fun in my former line),no matter what word we use or in which language we do it,it´s clear that the love between Jack and Ennis had a connotation of "forbidden",of something that one can´t do honestly.It was so in a country community in the 60´s and I´m afraid it´s the same still more often than we think and that it should be in 2007.So,in this sense,whatever translation we do,it´s very proper,in my opinion...
Thanks again for your nice words,little darlin´...
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2007, 11:04 AM by myprivatejack »
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

babytammy7

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #15 on: Sep 02, 2007, 12:20 PM »
 *o) MPJ you deserve Lamusica's words  ^f^

 :^^)
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #16 on: Sep 02, 2007, 02:32 PM »
Quote from: babytammy7 on Sep 02, 2007, 12:20 PM
*o) MPJ you deserve Lamusica's words  ^f^

 :^^)
     Well,both of you will make me begin my working week with such a "speed" that tomorrow I´ll have a Sunday´s face instead of a dreary Monday´s face... I feel as if I had some good friends on distance,and this gets me good...And ain´t no foolin´...You bet.
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2007, 02:38 PM by myprivatejack »
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lamusica

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #17 on: Sep 02, 2007, 08:38 PM »
Happy Monday!!!  Here it is Labor Day  on Monday, so a lot of people are off work and the kids are out of school for the day.  So a lot of people will have Sunday faces tomorrow!  It's a legal holiday -- no omail delivery, no banks open, no government services.  It's kind of the last day to celebrate summer before we all get serious and get back to work.  BUT soon the holiday season will be upon us.  Sorry to be OT.
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #18 on: Sep 03, 2007, 01:15 PM »
You´re excused:it´s nobody´s bussiness but ours. ^-^

                             
(HAPPY MONDAY¡¡¡ :cr)
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline chameau

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #19 on: Sep 03, 2007, 09:24 PM »
The French Canadian and the French (from France) versions have different titles:


Canada:  Souvenirs de Brokeback Mountain (Souvenirs from Brokeback Mountain)

France:  le secret de Brokeback Mountain (The Secret of Brokeback Mountain)

I personally stick to the original but if I have to choose, I prefer the Canadian one. 
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Offline tpe

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #20 on: Sep 04, 2007, 09:30 AM »
Quote from: babytammy7 on Aug 31, 2007, 08:03 AM
Hello again Tpe, Lamusica and MPJ!!!

Thank you very much for your anwers!!!  :clap:

MPJ you said BBM in Spain is called BBM -In interdicted ground -To love without fear, but the film is really called here BBM- Close Range- To love without fear. En terreno vedado is Close Range's traslation, and this is too the name of the Annie's SS, you know: Close Range: Wyoming Stories, so is not too bad to title the film like the short story, 'cause Annie thought that every story she wrote happened in a hard, rough and prohibitive time and place (Wyoming) that was like a close range.....

So the spanish title is saying the love between Ennis and Jack is in close range so they have to love without fear!!!But not only Close range refering to the social oppression, but talking about  Ennis and Jack's difficulty to express each other their love!!!

Tpe, I don't think that En terreno vedado alludes to the mountain....I think it is about Ennis and Jack's lifes and love. Besides, in the SS there is a paragraph (last confontation scene) where Annie says that Ennis was walking into close range when he asked Jack about México (aaaahhhhhh I don't know if you understand me...why do I not speak english?  :-\\ ). Please take a look on that, I know I read that, really!!! So Close Range in the title can means too the close range between things they knew (fears, pain...) and the things they didn't know (secrets, infidelities, true and unspoken love....). What do you think?



Thanks, babytammy7.  I have not read the SS in Spanish yet, but I think this is the passage you allude to:

Ennis said nothing, straightened up slowly, rubbed at his forehead; a horse stamped inside the trailer. He walked to his truck, put his hand on the trailer, said something that only the horses could hear, turned and walked back at a deliberate pace.

“You been a Mexico, Jack?” Mexico was the place. He’d heard. He was cutting fence now, trespassing in the shoot-em zone.


I do understand here what you allude to.  :)



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Offline lamusica

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #21 on: Sep 04, 2007, 08:17 PM »
Quote from: tpe on Sep 04, 2007, 09:30 AM


“You been a Mexico, Jack?” Mexico was the place. He’d heard. He was cutting fence now, trespassing in the shoot-em zone.
[/i]



Isn't this line terrific!?  Of all the ways Annie could have expressed the fact that Ennis was major pissed at this point, she chose these words which just give us the western, straight-to-the-heart-of-the-matter meaning.  Jack had triggered Ennis's anger, so the kid gloves come off and Ennis lets Jack have it with both barrels.  I love this sentence.  It is a pure example of what makes Annie so great!





« Last Edit: Sep 05, 2007, 07:25 AM by tpe »
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babytammy7

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #22 on: Sep 05, 2007, 05:31 AM »
Hello Tpe, thanks for your answer!!

Quote
“You been a Mexico, Jack?” Mexico was the place. He’d heard. He was cutting fence now, trespassing in the shoot-em zone.

Yeah, that is the scene!!! But in the spanish's SS, is something like this: He was cutting fence now, risking himself to receive a shot for trespassing in close range (OMG, I'm not good translating into english, you know that!!!)

I'm happy 'cause you understand what I want to say  :clap:
« Last Edit: Sep 05, 2007, 10:48 AM by babytammy7 »
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babytammy7

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #23 on: Sep 05, 2007, 06:35 AM »
Quote from: chameau on Sep 03, 2007, 09:24 PM
The French Canadian and the French (from France) versions have different titles:


Canada:  Souvenirs de Brokeback Mountain (Souvenirs from Brokeback Mountain)

France:  le secret de Brokeback Mountain (The Secret of Brokeback Mountain)

I personally stick to the original but if I have to choose, I prefer the Canadian one. 


Hi Cham!! Nice to meet you here!!! I've read a lot posts of you  ^f^

Well Cham, I don't like the french's titles.... Sorry, it's just my opinion, #)  I hope you're not angry with 'cause I know you are canadian  ~)

I accept all the subtitles ( In close range:to love without fear; Love is a force of nature....), I like them 'cause the main title is always the same: Brokeback Mountain ( just two words to say everything: the paradise, the dreams, the love, the place where all started, Jack's favorite place.....), but Canada and France doesn't respect the original title....and I know that my complaint about that is a silly thing, but I had to say, I don't like canadian and french's titles.
They were in BBM only a few weeks and they never returned; however, the film is called like the mountain 'cause it was all they had, it symbolized their love, so I love that two simple words, Brokeback Mountain, without "the secret" or "Souvenirs".

Cham,  :^^)
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Offline tpe

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #24 on: Sep 05, 2007, 07:29 AM »
Quote from: lamusica on Sep 04, 2007, 08:17 PM

Isn't this line terrific!?  Of all the ways Annie could have expressed the fact that Ennis was major pissed at this point, she chose these words which just give us the western, straight-to-the-heart-of-the-matter meaning.  Jack had triggered Ennis's anger, so the kid gloves come off and Ennis lets Jack have it with both barrels.  I love this sentence.  It is a pure example of what makes Annie so great!

Terrific is the word: full of images that drive home what Ennis must have felt at that moment.  I think En "terreno vedado" is a good transliteration of this, too.  It brings me to a new appreciation of how the concept was carried over in Spanish.

 
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Offline tpe

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Re: Why a diferent title? You like it?
« Reply #25 on: Sep 05, 2007, 07:30 AM »
Quote from: babytammy7 on Sep 05, 2007, 05:31 AM
Hello Tpe, thanks for your answer!!

You're welcome, babytammy7.  And thanks also for clarifying the root of "terreno vedado" in the short story.  It makes me appreciate it more.

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