Topic: What picture do you see in your mind?

[tpe]

yep thomas, i love that too a lot in bbm, how things are often mirrored
i prefer them in the DE than by the lake, the first "hug" is far more happy than the second (which is beautiful too but just too #$%!$^!^!@%$^$ sad, desperate and "this is the end" kinda thing)
the DE ... happy sigh sigh sigh .... who doesn't fall for the DE, he !!!
lovely moving words, privatejack
thanks
vanessa

The one by the lake is made even more moving by its juxtaposition with the DE.  It is as if the director wanted us to juxtapose these two images -- peace and pain -- as the one we should take away from this -- the last scene we see Ennis and Jack together. 

[gothica_vanessa]

And I think what made it all the more beautiful and memorable for Jack was the knowledge that Ennis did this almost subconsicously/spontaneously.  If we ever want to catch a true and unguarded glimpse of Ennis's love for Jack, it is in the DE.  It was imperfect, but it was all that Ennis had.

thomas, you broke my heart here !!!!

The one by the lake is made even more moving by its juxtaposition with the DE.  It is as if the director wanted us to juxtapose these two images -- peace and pain -- as the one we should take away from this -- the last scene we see Ennis and Jack together. 

yep
ang is a genius, for sure. and jake is a hell of an actor, he ...
jack's eyes as he watch ennis going away after the DE, and then right after jack's eyes while ennis is driving away ... kills me every time. the difference is just so painfully clear ...

vanessa

[babytammy7]

thomas, you broke my heart here !!!!

yep
ang is a genius, for sure. and jake is a hell of an actor, he ...
jack's eyes as he watch ennis going away after the DE, and then right after jack's eyes while ennis is driving away ... kills me every time. the difference is just so painfully clear ...

vanessa

Yeah, baby. In the DE Jack's eyes talk about pure devotion to Ennis, dreams and deep love. Jack's eyes in the confrontation scene show that Jack finally gave up...not to Ennis, because I think had he lived he'd never quit Ennis, but his dreams, his hopes to have a life with Ennis...Jack's eyes tell us that that old sweet dreamer fighter Jack was truly dead, and from now on this tired Jack is not longer a bitter ghost of what he was, but a new man without hope, without tomorrow with Ennis, just a hollow sack of bones with a broken heart... :\'( :\'(

[gothica_vanessa]

Yeah, baby. In the DE Jack's eyes talk about pure devotion to Ennis, dreams and deep love. Jack's eyes in the confrontation scene show that Jack finally gave up...not to Ennis, because I think had he lived he'd never quit Ennis, but his dreams, his hopes to have a life with Ennis...Jack's eyes tell us that that old sweet dreamer fighter Jack was truly dead, and from now on this tired Jack is not longer a bitter ghost of what he was, but a new man without hope, without tomorrow with Ennis, just a hollow sack of bones with a broken heart... :\'( :\'(

tammy !!!!!
 :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
do i need to tell more
awesome heartwrenching words
vanessa

[smartestsonia]

Yeah, baby. In the DE Jack's eyes talk about pure devotion to Ennis, dreams and deep love. Jack's eyes in the confrontation scene show that Jack finally gave up...not to Ennis, because I think had he lived he'd never quit Ennis, but his dreams, his hopes to have a life with Ennis...Jack's eyes tell us that that old sweet dreamer fighter Jack was truly dead, and from now on this tired Jack is not longer a bitter ghost of what he was, but a new man without hope, without tomorrow with Ennis, just a hollow sack of bones with a broken heart... :\'( :\'(

my heart broke reading your post tammy :\'( :\'( :\'(...its hitting me hard...
Jack finally gave up of being with Ennis..even though he dint consciously do that but he just felt that it wont work out as it was too hard and traumatic for Ennis...God, his heart must have broken into pieces with the thought of no tomorrow with Ennis..I just get torn apart seeing him in that scene  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

thomas, you broke my heart here !!!!

Sorry, Vanessa! 
 

yep
ang is a genius, for sure. and jake is a hell of an actor, he ...
jack's eyes as he watch ennis going away after the DE, and then right after jack's eyes while ennis is driving away ... kills me every time. the difference is just so painfully clear ...

vanessa

I consider that parting shot of Jack after the final confrontation to be 1 of 2 faces that we shall remember about Jack.  The other one is the one in the DE, of course.  I think both of these two parting looks should be the way to remember Jack -- love and resignation.  These two (for better or for worse) sum up his life.

[myprivatejack]

I consider that parting shot of Jack after the final confrontation to be 1 of 2 faces that we shall remember about Jack.  The other one is the one in the DE, of course.  I think both of these two parting looks should be the way to remember Jack -- love and resignation.  These two (for better or for worse) sum up his life.

Yes,Thomas,you're right.But I'd add another component to sum up Jack's life: love,resignation but fight.And they're not necessarily two antagonise concepts.

[tpe]

I understand what you say here, MPJ.  He was a fighter.  He fought for his dreams, against all odds.  One cannot understand his life without this.

[smartestsonia]

Thankyou Thomas and MPJ to explain Jacks life as love, resignation but fight..Wow..that is so true….
His love for Ennis was so pure..All he wanted was him. His whole life spoke for that..Then after the final confrontation there was a resignation which was so painful and hard hitting for him….I think that is the most difficult thing that Jack did in his whole life..Seeing the love of his life going away shattered him..He was left with this broken heart and so much regret.

And finally he is a fighter as his whole life he lived with the hope of having Ennis and was ready to risk it all for him..What hurts the most is being a fighter his whole life and finally there is a resignation from his side after the last confrontation shows to what extent Jack was hurt and in pain.. He was literally crushed as all that he fought for and kept together his life just fell apart…He is left with all memories and unfulfilled dreams..

[tpe]

Somehow, even after the "defeat" of the Last Confrontation, I still see, in his last look at Ennis, a hint of defiance/resistance and fire beneath the sea of resignation.   I find this last look very interesting, as it really appears ot be a mixture of 2 opposing tendencies.  Wonderfully done, IMO.  These days, when I think of Jack, it is always this look and the look at the Dozy Embrace that comes to my mind -- opposing tendencies to the very end. 

[smartestsonia]

Somehow, even after the "defeat" of the Last Confrontation, I still see, in his last look at Ennis, a hint of defiance/resistance and fire beneath the sea of resignation.   I find this last look very interesting, as it really appears ot be a mixture of 2 opposing tendencies.  Wonderfully done, IMO.  These days, when I think of Jack, it is always this look and the look at the Dozy Embrace that comes to my mind -- opposing tendencies to the very end. 

U spoke my hearts inner most feelings out. I also remember that look a lot… the 2 contradictory scenes have frozen in my mind. Firstly, the Scene of Ennis holding Jack (dozy embrace) and they share the sexless embrace and Jack has this feeling of content that Ennis held him with so much love…he literally felt mesmerized in his arms.

Then there is a scene of resignation by Jack but at the same time somewhere unconsciously or consciously there is a hope also. I just see that..I feel that for a moment he can’t believe what just happened..I mean how the fight took place and ended…..When he sees Ennis going away in the Car somewhere there is a hope that he would turn the car and come back but Ennis dint..and jack is left so hurt and burdened with pain….that look of Jack makes my heart cry with pain...

[tpe]

Thanks smartestsonia.

Jack's look certainly shoed a lot of hurt.  But I would like to think that the DE also hinted that the love was still intact, and that it showed even in that sad final look.

There is also one other look that I will never forget from this, the Last Confrontation.  It's when Ennis breaks down, and Jack lifts his hands slightly and approaches Ennis to embrace him.  In Ennis's face, we see all suffering, and I think in Jack's we see all compassion. 

[smartestsonia]

Thanks smartestsonia.

Jack's look certainly shoed a lot of hurt.  But I would like to think that the DE also hinted that the love was still intact, and that it showed even in that sad final look.

There is also one other look that I will never forget from this, the Last Confrontation.  It's when Ennis breaks down, and Jack lifts his hands slightly and approaches Ennis to embrace him.  In Ennis's face, we see all suffering, and I think in Jack's we see all compassion. 

The love was and will always remain intact …..it will never fade away.... no fight, pain, hurt , regret or even death couldn’t fade that away. I think that’s what hurts the most that they just loved each other so much that it became too painful to handle…

The part of last confrontation scene what touches me the most is when Ennis tells Jack that he is nobody and nowhere and when Jack hears that he feels the pain that Ennis is in…Inspite of Jack himself hurting so much and the regrets and all, when Jack sees Ennis breaking down he forgets his own wounds for a moment and sees the miseries of Ennis and just goes to hold him giving him non verbal gestures that he is still there and still loves him the same…That embrace that Jack gives  Ennis is sooooooo powerful…that inspite of all the love has not changed...

[tpe]

Yes, for Jack in the Last Confrontation, it was a double hurt.  It was both a hurt for a dying or dead dream and hurt born out of compassion for Ennis.  The latter didn't really hit him until Ennis finally drops the mask of stoicism.  By bringing up the possibility of dropping Ennis, Jack exposes not only his own frustration but Ennis's also.  Ennis always tried to hide it, but just couldn'e when faced by Jack's pain.  Both fed on each other's pain in that scene -- as much as both fed each other's anger as the scene progressed.  What I see in my mind is that the anger and the hurt are one and the same, even as their love for each other is at the root of both this hurt and anger.

[smartestsonia]

Yes, for Jack in the Last Confrontation, it was a double hurt.  It was both a hurt for a dying or dead dream and hurt born out of compassion for Ennis.  The latter didn't really hit him until Ennis finally drops the mask of stoicism.  By bringing up the possibility of dropping Ennis, Jack exposes not only his own frustration but Ennis's also.  Ennis always tried to hide it, but just couldn'e when faced by Jack's pain.  Both fed on each other's pain in that scene -- as much as both fed each other's anger as the scene progressed.  What I see in my mind is that the anger and the hurt are one and the same, even as their love for each other is at the root of both this hurt and anger.

This is so true about Jack..he was in the middle of both both emotions…his own regrets as well as what Ennis feels…When he sees Ennis dropping down he just couldnt take that and had to held him..the love of his life was himself in so much pain and was so helpless….Ennis’s struggle was understood by Jack but every human has his own wishes and desires too…Although he forgot it all when he saw Ennis was in so much pain  as Jack could never be in peace  if Ennis was hurting so much...

As u said the love is the root of all..They loved each other so much and just wanted each other..thats it..but that did not get fulfilled completely..thats where the pain and regret comes and it all summed up in the last confrontation…

[tpe]

This is so true about Jack..he was in the middle of both both emotions…his own regrets as well as what Ennis feels…When he sees Ennis dropping down he just couldnt take that and had to held him..the love of his life was himself in so much pain and was so helpless….Ennis’s struggle was understood by Jack but every human has his own wishes and desires too…Although he forgot it all when he saw Ennis was in so much pain  as Jack could never be in peace  if Ennis was hurting so much...

As u said the love is the root of all..They loved each other so much and just wanted each other..thats it..but that did not get fulfilled completely..thats where the pain and regret comes and it all summed up in the last confrontation…

I've always been haunted by Jack's parting look.  I've thought about what it really meant so many times.  I have thought thatn it hints at deep conflicting emotions.  Perhaps we'll never really know...  But it certainly haunts me, so many hears after first watching this movie...

[smartestsonia]

I've always been haunted by Jack's parting look.  I've thought about what it really meant so many times.  I have thought thatn it hints at deep conflicting emotions.  Perhaps we'll never really know...  But it certainly haunts me, so many hears after first watching this movie...

Thomas u r not alone in this…a lot of us still get haunted by that look including myself..the effect is same whenever I watch that scene…I think that’s the gripping factor of this film. I mean I have watched so many emotional films in my life and I have cried alot of times as I am a sensitive person but the effect that BBM has on me is the same each time..I remember how much it affected me when I first saw it.,.even today my hearts gets vulnerable when I watch the final confrontation and the Jack’s parting look..

Ya, as u said the look had deep conflicting emotions…I feel the conflicting emotions r between the fact that their relation turned this way, to let go but at the same time to hold on as Ennis was a part of Jack and the emotion of the hurt that u get when u r so deeply in love..Its a mixture of all and I think that so many thoughts and feelings were going on in Jack’s mind..the thought that Ennis may never return or should Jack move on ..this thought was opposing to the fact that somewhere Jack was still holding on...I think that it was a blend of these emotions and I can literally picture that look in front of me…that’s how strong the impact is….

[tpe]

The look certainly gives you a deep feeling that something is UNFINISHED.  Deep-seated, conflicting emotions remain unresolved. 

I had wondered sometimes, if Ennis looked back at Jack as he drove away.  The movie or the story doesn't say this -- but I wonder if Ennis did look back at Jack -- perhaps through the rear-view mirror, similar to what Jack did when they parted in 63 -- and didn't realize that it was to be his last look of Jack alive.

[rimasworld]

The look certainly gives you a deep feeling that something is UNFINISHED.  Deep-seated, conflicting emotions remain unresolved. 

I had wondered sometimes, if Ennis looked back at Jack as he drove away.  The movie or the story doesn't say this -- but I wonder if Ennis did look back at Jack -- perhaps through the rear-view mirror, similar to what Jack did when they parted in 63 -- and didn't realize that it was to be his last look of Jack alive.

That's an interesting thought. Did Ennis look? Knowing it would be until at least November until he saw Jack again? He was hurt and mad but I'm thinking he may have, knowing it was safe since no one would know he did it. Isn't it human nature to look, especially at the one you love, no matter what has happened good or bad? If he did, that last glance could be added to the surreptitious glances. Another reason to love this movie, so many things you can imagine happening just by the way they are presented.

[smartestsonia]

The look certainly gives you a deep feeling that something is UNFINISHED.  Deep-seated, conflicting emotions remain unresolved. 

I had wondered sometimes, if Ennis looked back at Jack as he drove away.  The movie or the story doesn't say this -- but I wonder if Ennis did look back at Jack -- perhaps through the rear-view mirror, similar to what Jackdid when they parted in 63 -- and didn't realize that it was to be his last look of Jack alive.

I think that Ennis did look for a moment…its very unconscious to do that…If we literally imagine the scene in our minds then I feel that even when Ennis was so hurt he also knew that he is leaving abruptly...Perhaps he needed to be alone or wanted to be alone. However, at the same time he knew that Jack is hurting too….so a glance must have been there from his side to check on Jack at the same time…very unconscious though according to me as a huge part of him just wanted to be by himself for the moment…

[tpe]

That's an interesting thought. Did Ennis look? Knowing it would be until at least November until he saw Jack again? He was hurt and mad but I'm thinking he may have, knowing it was safe since no one would know he did it. Isn't it human nature to look, especially at the one you love, no matter what has happened good or bad? If he did, that last glance could be added to the surreptitious glances. Another reason to love this movie, so many things you can imagine happening just by the way they are presented.

Yes, I think it is in our nature to look -- especially when it is not in an obvious fashion.  It is indeed in the nature of things. 

And yes, it would have counted as a surreptitious glance. 

[tpe]

I think that Ennis did look for a moment…its very unconscious to do that…If we literally imagine the scene in our minds then I feel that even when Ennis was so hurt he also knew that he is leaving abruptly...Perhaps he needed to be alone or wanted to be alone. However, at the same time he knew that Jack is hurting too….so a glance must have been there from his side to check on Jack at the same time…very unconscious though according to me as a huge part of him just wanted to be by himself for the moment…

I think it is insightful to consider it as perhaps an unconscious action, given that he was certainly trying to get away from what he may thought to be his "shameful" breakdown.  In fact, his action of pushing Jack back in the Last Confrontation is also an unconscious reaction that might have been propelled by shame -- shame of exposing himself this weay to Jack.  After all, he prized his stoicism very much, and perhaps at that point, he only wanted to get away and not let Jack see how vulnerable he really was.

[smartestsonia]

I think it is insightful to consider it as perhaps an unconscious action, given that he was certainly trying to get away from what he may thought to be his "shameful" breakdown.  In fact, his action of pushing Jack back in the Last Confrontation is also an unconscious reaction that might have been propelled by shame -- shame of exposing himself this weay to Jack.  After all, he prized his stoicism very much, and perhaps at that point, he only wanted to get away and not let Jack see how vulnerable he really was.

That’s true, I think Ennis just could not take it when Jack said that he wish he could quit him. I mean Ennis felt that he lost all that he had...He lost his wife, he did not live with his kids, he was almost hand to mouth and he lived a life of fear and low self esteem...After all that, when Jack said those words Ennis just could not hide his vulnerability anymore. IMO he always felt that Jack knows him too well and can see through the real person he is which includes his strength and weaknesses...

Ennis always was not good at expressing his emotions and he always wanted to be composed.…He pushed Jack away as Jack made him show his vulnerability. It was a strong reaction of so many repressed emotions and the fact that he is losing all that ever mattered to him….

IMO Ennis later realized that it was ok to show Jack how he feels because at the end of the day only Jack would understand that…That’s why he wanted to meet up with Ennis and make sure that things can get better between them unaware that Jack is no more :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

Yes, expressing his emotions -- I agree that THAT was Ennis's great weakness.  To manuy of us, it is what invariably comes to mind when we think about Ennis.  But would many of us agree that when push comes to shove -- when the going gets tough -- Ennis is also weak at HIDING his emotions?  His stoicism was a facade, at best.  I think he knew deep in his heart that he was no stoic.

What scenes come to your mind -- scenes that would show how poor he was at truly hiding his emotions?  I can think of a few dramatic ones.

[smartestsonia]

Yes, expressing his emotions -- I agree that THAT was Ennis's great weakness.  To manuy of us, it is what invariably comes to mind when we think about Ennis.  But would many of us agree that when push comes to shove -- when the going gets tough -- Ennis is also weak at HIDING his emotions?  His stoicism was a facade, at best.  I think he knew deep in his heart that he was no stoic.

What scenes come to your mind -- scenes that would show how poor he was at truly hiding his emotions?  I can think of a few dramatic ones.

I feel that Ennis tried too hard in his whole life to hide his emotions. However, no matter how composed one is as a person when something happens in their life which is too close to their heart or when dealing with a person that they love no matter how much they try there is a huge cry and depth even in their silence

The Scene that comes to my mind in which Ennis tried to hide his emotions but it is still visible is when Jack tells Ennis that the truth is that sometimes he misses him so much that he can hardly stand it...When he says those words and we have a look at Ennis we can see that Ennis literally feels Jacks love and wanted to reciprocate at that very moment but does not...I think he tried to hard to be quiet but it was very obvious to me that he ws feeling the same…Later at night he puts his arms around Jack comforting him and it was an excellent expression of gesture…I have to say that they way he held him was simply adorable

[tpe]

Yes, that scene you mentioned is a perfect example of a missed opportunity.  Perhaps Ennis;s silence at that moment was telling enough -- but it probably would have done him a world of good to just try to express it, and not keep in deep within himself.

He tried too hard -- and it didn't really help to keep it all in in the long run.  But that is Ennis.  That is the picture of him in our minds' eye.  And I think Jack also saw this and loved him in spite of it -- and, perhaps, even because of it.

 

[smartestsonia]

Yes, that scene you mentioned is a perfect example of a missed opportunity.  Perhaps Ennis;s silence at that moment was telling enough -- but it probably would have done him a world of good to just try to express it, and not keep in deep within himself.

He tried too hard -- and it didn't really help to keep it all in in the long run.  But that is Ennis.  That is the picture of him in our minds' eye.  And I think Jack also saw this and loved him in spite of it -- and, perhaps, even because of it.

 

Wow Thomas…that is so welll said ..Thanks...This is truly Ennis and we love Ennis for who he is ..Although, at times we do expect him to be more open and say it all…I think the beauty of their relationship for the 1st half of the film and also in the start of 2nd half was that everything was clearly understood by them just by being together…nothing had to be explained and nothing had to be justified…There was a mutual understanding as to why the other person is so...Jack always knew that Ennis fears were deep rooted in his mind mainly due his childhood experiences…However, even though Jack understood Ennis, if Ennis would have given it a try to  meet Jack a bit more often then their relationship would have been better…but Ennis dint do that...Again even though Jack understood that, sometimes one does get frustrated because one keeps longing for his loved one and does not get a glimpse of that person for so long. I think that’s why the final confrontation was so hurtful…

[tpe]

Wow Thomas…that is so welll said ..Thanks...This is truly Ennis and we love Ennis for who he is ..Although, at times we do expect him to be more open and say it all…I think the beauty of their relationship for the 1st half of the film and also in the start of 2nd half was that everything was clearly understood by them just by being together…nothing had to be explained and nothing had to be justified…There was a mutual understanding as to why the other person is so...Jack always knew that Ennis fears were deep rooted in his mind mainly due his childhood experiences…However, even though Jack understood Ennis, if Ennis would have given it a try to  meet Jack a bit more often then their relationship would have been better…but Ennis dint do that...Again even though Jack understood that, sometimes one does get frustrated because one keeps longing for his loved one and does not get a glimpse of that person for so long. I think that’s why the final confrontation was so hurtful…

I find it amazing that so much was left unsaid -- not only in the first part, but onward until we reach the Last Confrontation.  The amazing thing is that they understood each other in spite of so many things left unspoken and unresolved.  We would like to think that this means something, especially after the Last Confrontation.  That things went unresolved wasn't exactly a new thing.  In my mind's eye, I would like to think that it meant something.

[smartestsonia]

I find it amazing that so much was left unsaid -- not only in the first part, but onward until we reach the Last Confrontation.  The amazing thing is that they understood each other in spite of so many things left unspoken and unresolved.  We would like to think that this means something, especially after the Last Confrontation.  That things went unresolved wasn't exactly a new thing.  In my mind's eye, I would like to think that it meant something.

After the final Confrontation things dint get sorted out as Jack passed away and Ennis dint get a chance to meet him…After Jack passed away Ennis could not confide in anyone…now I feel that inspite of that Ennis knew that Jack knew him well…His strengths and weaknesses and when Ennis saw that shirt I felt that his entire life flashed in front of him and even though he knew Jacks love, seeing that shirt it became the greatest and most important reality of his life. Jack is his soul mate and the one that made his life meaningful…I am sure he had the thought in his mind that he would try to tell all he felt to Jack if he had one more chance…There is no answer to that question…the only thought that can have an answer is that he knew that Jack knew him too well. probably he was thinking of forgiveness for not being there for Jack all the time…but that part s definitely unresolved…one thing that would have given Ennis some kind of solace is the fact that he knew that Jack had always understood him…Jack knew that Ennis was victim of his own fears and probably Ennis would hope that Jack forgave him for that…I think Ennis guilt must be wanting forgiveness too...

[tpe]

smartestsonia, you know, the whole idea of FORGIVENESS and REDEMPTION have not really been fully discussed in these threads.  Perhaps it is a good topic for a new thread.  It is a very rich topic, especially in how many of us might or might not view Ennis in the last years...  Thank you for bringing this up.

I do see the later Ennis as a crucible by which some form of redemption is channeled.   And I also see (as you said) that he was thinking of forgiveness for not being there for Jack.  I am not sure if Ennis forgave himself entirely, but I think he forgave himself enough to realize that he can be there for the other people he loved (i.e., Jr.)  This is at the core of my view of redemption.