Author Topic: I'm not you Ennis  (Read 45379 times)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #30 on: Nov 04, 2007, 11:18 AM »
I am usually awed by your analysis, manhattangirl, so it's refreshing that I don't agree with you regarding Ennis having abandonment issues. I think he kept Jack at a distance because he didn't know how to handle this thing with no name, with no reins on it. I see Ennis as someone who likes his world very organized and neat. With everything in its place, and this thing with Jack just couldn't fit into his world. Once he learned it is love, with Cassie showing the way, he was ready to jump in with both feet, sending the card to Jack. And when it fell apart, he pursued Jack all the way to Lightning Flat, which he could have done, but never did when Jack goes to visit his folks. I felt that Jack was inviting Ennis to come along for a couple days, and probably had done so explicitly before, but was rebuffed.

Ennis was simply not ready. It took a lot to change his thinking. Cassie, the shirts, the realization that Jack's Ma accepted them all along... I watched that kitchen scene again, and this time I didn't cry because I was just so transfixed by the non-verbal communication between Ennis and Jack's Ma. I still cried when Ennis found the shirts, but that's about all. I think I've got my PBS out of the system for now, until the next time when emotions overwhelm understanding.

I agree with you, however, that Ennis and Jack as a couple will not always be smooth sailing, as when they lived their fantasy of Brokeback Mountain. Real life can be difficult on couples. How they deal with problems can be seen from their shooting an elk for food, Jack taking care of Ennis when the bear spooked the horses, and the two worked together to get the sheep back after the storm. I think they will make a good team, provided Ennis can rise above the wall, the fortress that he built. With Jack's Ma helping, I think the two of them has a good chance making it on the ranch, in spite of the old man. Perhaps, because of the old man, since having a common enemy is the best way for them to bond.

I agree with your observation that Jack may not know Ennis' love for him. His back was turned when Ennis broke down at his words, You have no idea how bad it gets. I think he has no idea that Ennis suffers also. Then again, perhaps it's his new stud duck persona that is now ignoring the very thing that he saw and loved in Ennis back in '63, that Ennis was the personification of loneliness. He does not enjoy it, just stand it because unlike Jack, he doesn't know how to fix it. Once he realized he doesn't have to be alone, he became alive. His footsteps coming down those stairs and across the kitchen floor were lighter, lightest in the whole movie. I always wondered why these cowboys drag their feet. Now I realize it is the genius of Ang Lee, preparing the moment when Ennis is presented as the new man, light on his feet, with love in his heart.

Both Jack and Ennis changed during the movie, in the twenty years, as expected with anyone, but they changed in different ways, and at different speed. Jack is quite right that he is not Ennis. If he truly loved Ennis, he would have found a way to deal with it. He tried his hardest, but as he said, Ennis was too much for him, just as he was too much for Ennis at the end, asking for more frequent meetings, instead of coming right out and offered to build a cabin in his parents' ranch. I think Ennis would have been ready for that, instead of just two guys living together. Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble off topic.  ~)

I personally believed Ennis would never live with Jack. This is someone with deep abandonment issues, keeping Jack at a distance where he could handle him emotionally was all Ennis could cope with. 

Remember how his reaction when they parted that first summer.  So devastating, his pain so deep, that it was a physical reaction losing someone he'd grown emotionally, mentally, and sexually attach to.

How would've been if they did live together?  Would Ennis smother Jack with his fears, would Jack feel the pressure of constant reassurances that he wasn't going anywhere?   

We got a hint of the bickering that goes on between them, when they argued when Jack suggested Ennis moved to Texas.   Ennis could be pretty nasty and hurtful towards Jack, but protective of him at other times.  We also have the issues of Jack's little trips to Mexico, and Ennis's reaction to them, how much would the knowledge that Jack could do this play into Ennis's mind. 

I'm not looking at Ennis being gay, straight or whatever, but a man with problems that started in childhood, carried with him to adulthood, and how it shape and moulded him as a lover, a companion to another human being for life.  Would Jack take the time and understand this of man he loved so much. 

"I not you, Ennis", that said a lot.   Could Jack and Ennis really survive as a couple living together?      
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

manhattangirl

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #31 on: Nov 04, 2007, 02:12 PM »
Lance,

Ennis lost the most essential people in his life his parents, his brother, and his sister.  Jack enters his life, Jack leave his life.  Ennis's breakdown shows how he dealt with profound loss, and how he cope with loss.   To loose those you were close to is hard for anyone, and especially for a child.   And what's so heartbreaking in Ennis's case he didn't even realize it.  What was he thinking while on his knees, puking and crying, when Jack drove away? 

Ennis is a man of few words, but abundance of emotions.  A man used to seeing those he loved and depended either die or leave him alone to fend for himself. 

Jack wasn't someone he could compartmentalize, in every action, in very decision Ennis made after '67 was made with Jack in the back of his mind.  Jack sure was in his dreams, and his heart before they met again. 

Ennis was great student of loss, grief, love, denial, denying himself a life with the one person that mattered to him, in the hopes of keeping them safe from harm? Or that Jack too will leave him for whatever reason?   "So why don't you just leave me be", That's why I feel Ennis wouldn't live with Jack,  fear of abandonment.
 
Just a thought.
« Last Edit: Nov 04, 2007, 02:28 PM by manhattangirl »

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #32 on: Nov 04, 2007, 05:52 PM »
Well, manhattangirl, I can't argue with your brilliant analysis, and perhaps I have the same issues as Ennis, and that is why I cannot see it. It's probably obvious to everyone else.

I will let your words stew a bit and see what comes out. I know you are right about Ennis' reaction to loss, as in his puking in summer of '63, the brooding on the grassy slope before leaving the mountain, etc. I just don't see the connection between that and his ability to live with Jack. I think once he realized that Jack is for real, that he was loved for twenty years, in the form of the two shirts, he was ready to accept and embrace Jack in his own world. I think the November post card was Ennis' way of getting ready to literally allow Jack into his fortress, forever. As I said a few times before, Ennis doesn't love easily, as Jack does, but once he gives his heart, he gives all of it, without reservation. Just my opinion, and may not be true of the Real Ennis.  ;)

With respect to "So why don't you just leave me be", I think that refers to Ennis' inability, at that time, to deal with his feelings for Jack. He was so confused, that the only thing he could say, after Jack hammered his heart one blow after another, was to say the one thing that will take away those feelings, to help Jack quit him. As you said before, these two instinctively fulfill the other's wishes. When Jack said, "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis was physical ill because he instinctively wants to help Jack but at the same time, cannot stand losing Jack. In the end, he told Jack what they both needed to hear in order to give themselves permission to stop seeing each other. He was peaceful in the diner when Cassie walked in, because he was at peace with letting go of Jack, knowing that's what Jack wanted. But when Cassie cried, and said "Girl don't fall in love with fun", he realized that he and Jack were in love, and fun or not, they needed to be together. Hence the November post card.

Just my two cents worth. I think Ennis and Jack would make a great couple in the big city, starting a business and television with "train your pet" and/or home renovation, kind of like a combination of two shows in one.  ^-^

Lance,

Ennis lost the most essential people in his life his parents, his brother, and his sister.  Jack enters his life, Jack leave his life.  Ennis's breakdown shows how he dealt with profound loss, and how he cope with loss.   To loose those you were close to is hard for anyone, and especially for a child.   And what's so heartbreaking in Ennis's case he didn't even realize it.  What was he thinking while on his knees, puking and crying, when Jack drove away? 

Ennis is a man of few words, but abundance of emotions.  A man used to seeing those he loved and depended either die or leave him alone to fend for himself. 

Jack wasn't someone he could compartmentalize, in every action, in very decision Ennis made after '67 was made with Jack in the back of his mind.  Jack sure was in his dreams, and his heart before they met again. 

Ennis was great student of loss, grief, love, denial, denying himself a life with the one person that mattered to him, in the hopes of keeping them safe from harm? Or that Jack too will leave him for whatever reason?   "So why don't you just leave me be", That's why I feel Ennis wouldn't live with Jack,  fear of abandonment.
 
Just a thought.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

manhattangirl

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #33 on: Nov 04, 2007, 06:16 PM »
Just my two cents worth. I think Ennis and Jack would make a great couple in the big city, starting a business and television with "train your pet" and/or home renovation, kind of like a combination of two shows in one.  ^-^


Lance,

I know this way off topic, (my apologies Cham),  but there's a little bar in Chelsea, a section of Manhattan, and whenever I'm there, I can't help but picture Ennis waiting outside for Jack, looking at his watch, wondering where he is.  Isn't that weird.


Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #34 on: Nov 05, 2007, 08:23 AM »
I personally believed Ennis would never live with Jack. This is someone with deep abandonment issues, keeping Jack at a distance where he could handle him emotionally was all Ennis could cope with. 

Remember how his reaction when they parted that first summer.  So devastating, his pain so deep, that it was a physical reaction losing someone he'd grown emotionally, mentally, and sexually attach to.

How would've been if they did live together?  Would Ennis smother Jack with his fears, would Jack feel the pressure of constant reassurances that he wasn't going anywhere?   

We got a hint of the bickering that goes on between them, when they argued when Jack suggested Ennis moved to Texas.   Ennis could be pretty nasty and hurtful towards Jack, but protective of him at other times.  We also have the issues of Jack's little trips to Mexico, and Ennis's reaction to them, how much would the knowledge that Jack could do this play into Ennis's mind. 

I'm not looking at Ennis being gay, straight or whatever, but a man with problems that started in childhood, carried with him to adulthood, and how it shape and moulded him as a lover, a companion to another human being for life.  Would Jack take the time and understand this of man he loved so much. 

"I not you, Ennis", that said a lot.   Could Jack and Ennis really survive as a couple living together?     

Hello manhattangirl.  I think they would survive as a couple -- only because Jack probably knew what he was getting into in the first place.  In spite of Ennis being confliced and all, he never lost the desire to be with him.

I don't know if Ennis never really wanted to live with Jack.  A part of him certainly didn't want it.  But something tells me that the other part of him definitely wanted it.  I think these 2 opposing parts of him is at the root of his anguish.

I think the bickering is not unusual in relaxed relationships.  As to Ennis smothering Jack with his fears, I would like to think that perhaps Jack would succeed in partly lifting the burden of fear and guilt in Ennis. 

Going back to my original statement, I think Jack understood wnat he was getting into.  He understood Ennis.  He could have made it work...


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #35 on: Nov 05, 2007, 10:07 AM »
Hello manhattangirl.  I think they would survive as a couple -- only because Jack probably knew what he was getting into in the first place.  In spite of Ennis being confliced and all, he never lost the desire to be with him.

I don't know if Ennis never really wanted to live with Jack.  A part of him certainly didn't want it. But something tells me that the other part of him definitely wanted it.  I think these 2 opposing parts of him is at the root of his anguish.

I think the bickering is not unusual in relaxed relationships.  As to Ennis smothering Jack with his fears, I would like to think that perhaps Jack would succeed in partly lifting the burden of fear and guilt in Ennis. 

Going back to my original statement, I think Jack understood wnat he was getting into.  He understood Ennis.  He could have made it work...


I agree with you tpe. If Jack was alive to read Ennis' postcard, he would've redlined all the way back. Thing is, I am beginning to wonder if Jack doesn't have a streak of the stud duck in him that was so evident in his old man. The thanksgiving dinner when he stood up to old newsome may have released the demon, so to speak, and now he is ready to bully and push his way to get what he wants, including Ennis. I really didn't find his last scene very attractive. Even his cowboy hat, if you'd notice, was shaped in such a way that the flaps on the side resembled horns. Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but the aggressive side of Jack that was beginning to emerge may also scare Ennis. Thing is, they see each other not as the person in front of them, but as a reflection of the memory they shared in the summer of '63. Love can tolerate a lot, so I think they will survive as a couple, when given a chance.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #36 on: Nov 05, 2007, 01:23 PM »
I agree with you tpe. If Jack was alive to read Ennis' postcard, he would've redlined all the way back. Thing is, I am beginning to wonder if Jack doesn't have a streak of the stud duck in him that was so evident in his old man. The thanksgiving dinner when he stood up to old newsome may have released the demon, so to speak, and now he is ready to bully and push his way to get what he wants, including Ennis. I really didn't find his last scene very attractive. Even his cowboy hat, if you'd notice, was shaped in such a way that the flaps on the side resembled horns. Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but the aggressive side of Jack that was beginning to emerge may also scare Ennis. Thing is, they see each other not as the person in front of them, but as a reflection of the memory they shared in the summer of '63. Love can tolerate a lot, so I think they will survive as a couple, when given a chance.

I don't think there was anything in common between Jack and John in this regard.  And the nearly 20 years all point to the fact that he was probably too patient with Ennis  -- some members had asked if things would have ended better had Jack been a bit more pushy with Ennis.

There are 2 good examples where we see Jack always too ready to back down.  The first one is the post-divorce scene when Jack is rejected by Ennis.  A more assertive person would not have taken no for an answer, especially if one drove nonestop for 14 hours to be with someone.  The second is the "paranoia" scene between Jack and Ennis.  Jack was clearly in the right here.  It was understandable that he would recommend to Ennis a change of scene if he felt that others suspected him.  And when Ennis responded rather irritably, Jack simply chose to go away.

These instances indicate that Jack perhaps gave Ennis tto much leeway.  "I'm not you, Ennis" could also be applied in this context: in that Jack was perhaps not as assertive with things he felt strongly about.

 

Offline lamusica

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #37 on: Nov 05, 2007, 02:48 PM »
Where is the line between enough and too much?  You're right about Jack giving in too easily.  However, we are all familiar with the aphorism:If you love something, set it free.  If it's meant to be yours, it will come back to you.  Well, Ennis always came back.  So, maybe Jack was betting on that.  He was willing to let Ennis make his moves as he saw fit, knowing that Ennis would always find his way back to Jack eventually.
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Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #38 on: Nov 05, 2007, 02:57 PM »
Where is the line between enough and too much?  You're right about Jack giving in too easily.  However, we are all familiar with the aphorism:If you love something, set it free.  If it's meant to be yours, it will come back to you.  Well, Ennis always came back.  So, maybe Jack was betting on that.  He was willing to let Ennis make his moves as he saw fit, knowing that Ennis would always find his way back to Jack eventually.

I agree.  I felt that jack understood what it meant: to give Ennis some breathing space. 

I always found Jack to be very undestanding of Ennis, especially when you contrast things between Ennis and Lureen after the reunion.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #39 on: Nov 05, 2007, 10:25 PM »
I don't think there was anything in common between Jack and John in this regard.  And the nearly 20 years all point to the fact that he was probably too patient with Ennis  -- some members had asked if things would have ended better had Jack been a bit more pushy with Ennis.

There are 2 good examples where we see Jack always too ready to back down.  The first one is the post-divorce scene when Jack is rejected by Ennis.  A more assertive person would not have taken no for an answer, especially if one drove nonestop for 14 hours to be with someone.  The second is the "paranoia" scene between Jack and Ennis.  Jack was clearly in the right here.  It was understandable that he would recommend to Ennis a change of scene if he felt that others suspected him.  And when Ennis responded rather irritably, Jack simply chose to go away.

These instances indicate that Jack perhaps gave Ennis tto much leeway.  "I'm not you, Ennis" could also be applied in this context: in that Jack was perhaps not as assertive with things he felt strongly about.
 

I agree with you on both examples, but I am referring to Jack AFTER the Thanksgiving scene. In the paranoia scene, Jack was still dealing with his own demon. He hid the fact that Aquirre had spotted them with binoculars back in '63. In the short story, Jack was more forthcoming with this information, but even then, it was not full disclosure, i.e. the humiliating experience the next summer. This, IMHO, caused Jack to back down even when he could have pursued this and invited Ennis to Lightning Flat. Did he EVER named the Twist ranch to Ennis, or just referring to some vague cow and calf operation? I think Ennis, the ever pragmatic and practical foot-on-the-ground Ennis, would react differently seeing the family ranch.

Secondly, I am NOT equating Jack with the old man, merely pointing the potential, and the direction that Jack was going near the last few months in his life. He was becoming angry and frustrated with Ennis, even though he still loved him. If I had given the impression that Jack was another old man Twist, then please allow me to correct the misunderstanding. I was speaking of potentiality, not actuality.

Just my two cents.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #40 on: Nov 06, 2007, 08:44 AM »
I agree with you on both examples, but I am referring to Jack AFTER the Thanksgiving scene. In the paranoia scene, Jack was still dealing with his own demon. He hid the fact that Aquirre had spotted them with binoculars back in '63. In the short story, Jack was more forthcoming with this information, but even then, it was not full disclosure, i.e. the humiliating experience the next summer. This, IMHO, caused Jack to back down even when he could have pursued this and invited Ennis to Lightning Flat. Did he EVER named the Twist ranch to Ennis, or just referring to some vague cow and calf operation? I think Ennis, the ever pragmatic and practical foot-on-the-ground Ennis, would react differently seeing the family ranch.

Secondly, I am NOT equating Jack with the old man, merely pointing the potential, and the direction that Jack was going near the last few months in his life. He was becoming angry and frustrated with Ennis, even though he still loved him. If I had given the impression that Jack was another old man Twist, then please allow me to correct the misunderstanding. I was speaking of potentiality, not actuality.

Just my two cents.

Personally, I don't think that Jack was dealing with any personal demons in the "paranoia scene".  It clearly disturbed him that Ennis would begin to suspect everyone around him as knowing about his homosexuality.  Jack's reaction was typical of any person confronted by a friend who was showing signs of paranoia: try to let him get away from the suspected source, in this case, Riverton itself.

As was discussed in some of the older threads, Jack not telling Ennis about Aguirre was probably motivated by the knowledge that Ennis would not be able to handle it.  The same thing can be said when Jack answered "Me neither" to Ennis's "You know I ain't queer."  Jack knew better than to confront Ennis head-on when it came to Ennis's innate fears and paranoia, and he was wise not to have pursued the matter.  It was their love for each other that he wanted Ennis to accept, and not their being queer or not.

Jack discussed the cow and calf operation in his initial offer during the reunion -- when he had the offer from the elder Newsome to scram and accept money as recompense.  As the years progressed and this offer became moot, the dream shifted to bringing Ennis back to the family ranch.  I don't see why Ennis would have looked down on the ranch at LF, considering that Ennis himself was innured to hardship and poverty, not even owning a ranch of his own and simply content to remain a hired hand.  His refusal to take either offer of a cow and calf operation or the LF ranch was not practical-minded, IMO.  It was driven primarily by his own deep-seated fear to live openly with Jack.

I think Jack became increasingly angry and frustrated with Ennis simply because Ennis had become more distant and hard-to-get with each succeeding year.  Any person would have probably reacted the same way, if he loved the other person enough.  To me, John Twist didn't love anyone enough to be that angry or frustrated.  John Twist's anger and frustration were largely selfish in nature, if you pardon my mean estimation of Jack's father.   In any case, therein lies the chief difference.

 


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #41 on: Nov 06, 2007, 08:57 AM »
Personally, I don't think that Jack was dealing with any personal demons in the "paranoia scene".  It clearly disturbed him that Ennis would begin to suspect everyone around him as knowing about his homosexuality.  Jack's reaction was typical of any person confronted by a friend who was showing signs of paranoia: try to let him get away from the suspected source, in this case, Riverton itself.

As was discussed in some of the older threads, Jack not telling Ennis about Aguirre was probably motivated by the knowledge that Ennis would not be able to handle it.  The same thing can be said when Jack answered "Me neither" to Ennis's "You know I ain't queer."  Jack knew better than to confront Ennis head-on when it came to Ennis's innate fears and paranoia, and he was wise not to have pursued the matter.  It was their love for each other that he wanted Ennis to accept, and not their being queer or not.

Jack discussed the cow and calf operation in his initial offer during the reunion -- when he had the offer from the elder Newsome to scram and accept money as recompense.  As the years progressed and this offer became moot, the dream shifted to bringing Ennis back to the family ranch.  I don't see why Ennis would have looked down on the ranch at LF, considering that Ennis himself was innured to hardship and poverty, not even owning a ranch of his own and simply content to remain a hired hand.  His refusal to take either offer of a cow and calf operation or the LF ranch was not practical-minded, IMO.  It was driven primarily by his own deep-seated fear to live openly with Jack.

I think something can point out that Jack became increasingly angry and frustrated with Ennis simply because Ennis had become more distant and hard-to-get with each succeeding year.  Any person would have probably reacted the same way, if he loved that person enough.  To me, John Twist didn't love anyone enough to be that angry or frustrated.  John Twist's anger and frustration were largely selfish in nature, if you pardon my mean estimation of Jack's father.   In any case, therein lies the chief difference.


Thanks, tpe. I love this forum exactly for this reason, to be shown that I am wrong. I am still not happy with the suspicious minds scene, but I guess there is never going to be satisfaction in that unsatisfactory situation.

You analysis of Ennis' refusal to Jack is interesting, and never occurred to me that LD Newsome's offer to pay off Jack was conditional and time-limited. I can also see another reason why the Twist ranch proposal is not a happy one for them either. There is still the old man, and Jack may be reluctant to bring it up in fear of him. I can see the scene every time Jack visits and mentioned Ennis. The scowl on the old man's face, him spitting in his cup. If it ain't for Jack's Ma, Jack would've turned his back on Lightning Flat long ago.

And you are not mean, because some people are angry just because they are so self-centered and selfish that they would be angry until they have everything their way. And we all know that ain't ever goin' to happen, so they are always angry. Until the old man learns to accept the world as it is, Jack as he is, he won't be happy, no way.

Thanks, tpe. I love your insights.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #42 on: Nov 06, 2007, 09:08 AM »
Thanks, tpe. I love this forum exactly for this reason, to be shown that I am wrong. I am still not happy with the suspicious minds scene, but I guess there is never going to be satisfaction in that unsatisfactory situation.

You analysis of Ennis' refusal to Jack is interesting, and never occurred to me that LD Newsome's offer to pay off Jack was conditional and time-limited. I can also see another reason why the Twist ranch proposal is not a happy one for them either. There is still the old man, and Jack may be reluctant to bring it up in fear of him. I can see the scene every time Jack visits and mentioned Ennis. The scowl on the old man's face, him spitting in his cup. If it ain't for Jack's Ma, Jack would've turned his back on Lightning Flat long ago.

And you are not mean, because some people are angry just because they are so self-centered and selfish that they would be angry until they have everything their way. And we all know that ain't ever goin' to happen, so they are always angry. Until the old man learns to accept the world as it is, Jack as he is, he won't be happy, no way.

Thanks, tpe. I love your insights.

I think that the fact that we continue to talk about these scenes and situations and end up with different points of view and interpretations is testament to the richness of the film and story.

I think the differences between Ennis and Jack is but one part of the richness of the whole, even if the differences between the two lovers constitute the engine that drives the whole tragedy.  We can account for these differences in so many ways.  And yet in the end, they all bring us back to a deeper appreciation and admiration of a love that survived in spite of the differerences.


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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #43 on: Mar 10, 2008, 10:09 AM »
When Jack tells Ennis, "I'm not you," he means that he can't pretend like everything is fine when it's not, like Ennis pretends. Ennis truly, deeply loves Jack the same way that Jack loves him. Deep down inside, he knows that he and Jack are meant to be together, and he can never be happy in his life without Jack. But Ennis is afraid, and therefore he just pretends like he's content in his life, when he's not. He doesn't like it, but he feels like he can't fix it, so he just has to put up with it. It just once again sums up the difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack won't let his fear stop him from being who he is and living the life he deserves. Ennis is a person who wishes he could be free to be who is and live the life he deserves, but his fear stops him from that, and Ennis' fear is keeping not only Ennis prisoner, but Jack prisoner as well.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #44 on: Mar 10, 2008, 01:17 PM »
When Jack tells Ennis, "I'm not you," he means that he can't pretend like everything is fine when it's not, like Ennis pretends. Ennis truly, deeply loves Jack the same way that Jack loves him. Deep down inside, he knows that he and Jack are meant to be together, and he can never be happy in his life without Jack. But Ennis is afraid, and therefore he just pretends like he's content in his life, when he's not. He doesn't like it, but he feels like he can't fix it, so he just has to put up with it. It just once again sums up the difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack won't let his fear stop him from being who he is and living the life he deserves. Ennis is a person who wishes he could be free to be who is and live the life he deserves, but his fear stops him from that, and Ennis' fear is keeping not only Ennis prisoner, but Jack prisoner as well.

Hi again,Athena¡ Here we can see how Ennis and Jack are different as well as complementaries.Each one of them has a quality that the other is lacked or hasn't got in such a great measure:Jack the dreamer has his counterpoint in Ennis,the realistic man,to avoid being living in the clouds; Ennis has the happier and more romantic Jack's side to be more open to himself and the other.The pity is that no one of them knew how to use these differences as a way to find a solution and the way to get what they wished...In this case,both of them are the same,because in fact they never had enough communication between them as to look for this solution; the more openness Jack got from Ennis when they were in BBM never worked so well after that.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Offline keren_b

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #45 on: Mar 10, 2008, 01:53 PM »
When Jack tells Ennis, "I'm not you," he means that he can't pretend like everything is fine when it's not, like Ennis pretends. Ennis truly, deeply loves Jack the same way that Jack loves him. Deep down inside, he knows that he and Jack are meant to be together, and he can never be happy in his life without Jack. But Ennis is afraid, and therefore he just pretends like he's content in his life, when he's not. He doesn't like it, but he feels like he can't fix it, so he just has to put up with it. It just once again sums up the difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack won't let his fear stop him from being who he is and living the life he deserves. Ennis is a person who wishes he could be free to be who is and live the life he deserves, but his fear stops him from that, and Ennis' fear is keeping not only Ennis prisoner, but Jack prisoner as well.

I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.
The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #46 on: Mar 11, 2008, 08:09 AM »
Wonderful exhcange here.  Thanks athena0204 for your point of view.  As with keren, I do think that it is more a matter of repression.  But I know what you mean: there seems to be a double meaning in the statement "I'm not you":

1.  That Jack was saying that he couldn't repress his desires the way Ennis did.

2.  As you said: Jack can't "pretend" that everything was fine.

The pretense is for me a form of repression on the part of Ennis, and Jack was trying to tell him that he could not live this way.

 

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #47 on: Mar 11, 2008, 09:00 AM »
And also there's implicit in this statement that Jack didn't have enough with the few times a year he met each other,because his main wish was sharing his life with Ennis. And,of course,as you say Thomas,that he couldn't repress this wish the way Ennis did-or pretended to do...-;or better said,that he couldn't repress it for more time already.There was a precipice between what Ennis accepted and what he pretended he accepted,that was far littler in Jack's case.Jack also was saying that he could´t live for more time that lie of pretending they were happy with these little love's pieces they obtained from each other every four or five months.He was saying:-"My existential phrase is not If you can't fix it,you've got to stand itlike you have.Mine is You've got to stand it only while you're fighting to fix it.And as long as you can't understand this difference between you and me,Ennis,there will be an unsatisfactory situation about our future".IMO.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #48 on: Mar 11, 2008, 11:19 AM »
For me, the critical pretense on the part of Ennis was to give his fears the upper hand -- making it seem that these fears were necessary to keep them safe.  In this way, he did pretend that the status quo was all for the best, and so repressed his true desires.  The facade of stoicism may also be considered a pretense, given that when left alone (as in the alley) or confronted directly (as in the last meeting with Jack), he knew fully well that he couldn't really stand it.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #49 on: Mar 11, 2008, 11:55 AM »
For me, the critical pretense on the part of Ennis was to give his fears the upper hand -- making it seem that these fears were necessary to keep them safe.  In this way, he did pretend that the status quo was all for the best, and so repressed his true desires.  The facade of stoicism may also be considered a pretense, given that when left alone (as in the alley) or confronted directly (as in the last meeting with Jack), he knew fully well that he couldn't really stand it.

Yes,persons who disguise themselves most and best with the stoicism cloak are who break down in a most complete and desperate way,aren't they?.So,we can see how the deepest radical reactions come on Ennis part;when they must leave BBM,in the alley,in the confrontation scene...Even in the reunion scene we see how he's taking off this cloak and looks like even more desperate and needy of the relationship than Jack himself;whom we see crying only in the rejection after the divorce,but who is maintaining his reactions (his feelings,his needs...) in a more continued and permanent way.It's difficult,really difficult to oblige your mind,you heart and your mouth to say NO when you want to give all a different answer,indeed...That's Ennis great contradiction with which he lived all his life,and that Jack,obviously,didn't have.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #50 on: Mar 12, 2008, 08:43 AM »
Yes,persons who disguise themselves most and best with the stoicism cloak are who break down in a most complete and desperate way,aren't they?.So,we can see how the deepest radical reactions come on Ennis part;when they must leave BBM,in the alley,in the confrontation scene...Even in the reunion scene we see how he's taking off this cloak and looks like even more desperate and needy of the relationship than Jack himself;whom we see crying only in the rejection after the divorce,but who is maintaining his reactions (his feelings,his needs...) in a more continued and permanent way.It's difficult,really difficult to oblige your mind,you heart and your mouth to say NO when you want to give all a different answer,indeed...That's Ennis great contradiction with which he lived all his life,and that Jack,obviously,didn't have.

Yes, the difference was that Jack was able to admit to Ennis that he was not like him (i.e., Ennis), whereas Ennis struggled to admit to himself that he was not what he wanted people to think he was.

I hope this is not too convoluted a statement, but I hope you get what I mean...


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #51 on: Mar 12, 2008, 09:44 AM »
Yes, the difference was that Jack was able to admit to Ennis that he was not like him (i.e., Ennis), whereas Ennis struggled to admit to himself that he was not what he wanted people to think he was.

I hope this is not too convoluted a statement, but I hope you get what I mean...

And hence his contradictions,his inner struggle and,even,his violence as a way of relieve himself from his frustration...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

manhattangirl

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #52 on: Mar 12, 2008, 08:14 PM »
I wonder if Ennis knew himself at all.  "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere",  did he know where he fit in this world.   His reclusive nature when he's not with Jack makes me think that he really didn't know where he fit in.  Like Jack, it was like he was searching too for not so much respect, but his own identity. 

He was caught between the idea of being called "queer", a label which could mean his own possible death, and living that "up right straight life",  where he couldn't quite master, he did make a mess of his marriage, and couldn't make that intimate connection with Cassie.

He wasn't Jack, and Jack wasn't him.   Both looking for respect and identity, and found it in each other only on the mountain.

 


Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #53 on: Mar 12, 2008, 08:52 PM »
i guess we will never know i always took it mainly as he was saying he didnt have the same amount of sexual restraint as ennis he needed more sex but also that he needed ennis more than ennis was there for him, so many other suggestions seem plausible though.

athena0204

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #54 on: Mar 12, 2008, 10:37 PM »
I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.

Hmmm, I think Ennis is completely aware of his feelings for Jack. But I do agree with you about the "paralyzing fear" part. I think the whole reason Ennis refuses to live together with Jack is because of that horrific and traumatizing memory he had from when his father showed him that gruesome scene years before. My feeling is that Ennis, deep down inside, knew who he really was, he knew that he was gay, but felt like he couldn't be that because society would never allow it, and it might kill him for it. Ennis was afraid for his life, and for Jack's life as well. Ennis was a prisoner in chains, forced to be someone he's not, to do what was expected of him, because if he didn't go by those rules, he was afraid of what people would think, what they would say, and what they might actually do, as he clearly saw from a young age that someone could be brutally murdered for not following society's standards. The line, "If you can't fix, you just gotta stand it.", is exactly what Jack means when he says "I'm not you,". Ennis is a person who is dying on the inside, who is drowning in sorrow and despair because he's so in love with Jack but can't be with him because of his fear. When he says "If you can't fix it...", it's clear that Ennis wishes he could fix it, that he could make his and Jack's dreams come true and be happy in their lives together, but the way Ennis sees it, he doesn't have a choice. He has to continue living a lie, betraying himself, pretending to be someone he's not, just to satisfy other people, because that's what was expected of him by  society. This is all killing Ennis inside, and he's feeling miserable, and he knows he can never be happy without Jack, but he just goes on pretending that he's fine because he feels he doesn't have a choice. Jack too, is forced to pretend to be someone he's not by society, but unlike Ennis, Jack can't pretend, he will fight to be free, and he won't let fear hinder him, so therefore he says "I'm not you, Ennis."  In the end, all those years later, Ennis finally realizes that he should have just listened to Jack, and took the chance that Jack was willing to take for the sake of true love.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2008, 11:21 PM by athena0204 »

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #55 on: Mar 13, 2008, 08:19 AM »
Hmmm, I think Ennis is completely aware of his feelings for Jack. But I do agree with you about the "paralyzing fear" part. I think the whole reason Ennis refuses to live together with Jack is because of that horrific and traumatizing memory he had from when his father showed him that gruesome scene years before. My feeling is that Ennis, deep down inside, knew who he really was, he knew that he was gay, but felt like he couldn't be that because society would never allow it, and it might kill him for it. Ennis was afraid for his life, and for Jack's life as well. Ennis was a prisoner in chains, forced to be someone he's not, to do what was expected of him, because if he didn't go by those rules, he was afraid of what people would think, what they would say, and what they might actually do, as he clearly saw from a young age that someone could be brutally murdered for not following society's standards. The line, "If you can't fix, you just gotta stand it.", is exactly what Jack means when he says "I'm not you,". Ennis is a person who is dying on the inside, who is drowning in sorrow and despair because he's so in love with Jack but can't be with him because of his fear. When he says "If you can't fix it...", it's clear that Ennis wishes he could fix it, that he could make his and Jack's dreams come true and be happy in their lives together, but the way Ennis sees it, he doesn't have a choice. He has to continue living a lie, betraying himself, pretending to be someone he's not, just to satisfy other people, because that's what was expected of him by  society. This is all killing Ennis inside, and he's feeling miserable, and he knows he can never be happy without Jack, but he just goes on pretending that he's fine because he feels he doesn't have a choice. Jack too, is forced to pretend to be someone he's not by society, but unlike Ennis, Jack can't pretend, he will fight to be free, and he won't let fear hinder him, so therefore he says "I'm not you, Ennis."  In the end, all those years later, Ennis finally realizes that he should have just listened to Jack, and took the chance that Jack was willing to take for the sake of true love.

There are so many things here that I agree on.  And I love the way you say it. 

I think "I'm not you Ennis" could also very well be interpreted as Jack telling Ennis that he couldn't suppress who he was deep inside.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #56 on: Mar 13, 2008, 10:30 AM »
There are so many things here that I agree on.  And I love the way you say it. 

I think "I'm not you Ennis" could also very well be interpreted as Jack telling Ennis that he couldn't suppress who he was deep inside.

Yes,this short phrase can be interpreted in so many ways as viewers,a little in the line of the "Jack,I swear...".The final result is,as in this other case,the same:that there was deep differences on the basis of their relationship that they could never overcome for lack of communication.Much before that their frustrations explode in the final confrontation,when they said everything they had reserved inside for years...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #57 on: Mar 14, 2008, 09:16 AM »
Yes,this short phrase can be interpreted in so many ways as viewers,a little in the line of the "Jack,I swear...".The final result is,as in this other case,the same:that there was deep differences on the basis of their relationship that they could never overcome for lack of communication.Much before that their frustrations explode in the final confrontation,when they said everything they had reserved inside for years...

Very good -- that you bring up the seeming ambiguities with "I'm not you..." and "I swear...".   

The former certainly makes us think of all the subtle distinctions that differentiate Jack and Ennis -- the statement goes way beyond the surface of the obvious interpretation pertaining to sexual appetite.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #58 on: Mar 14, 2008, 10:28 AM »
Very good -- that you bring up the seeming ambiguities with "I'm not you..." and "I swear...".   

The former certainly makes us think of all the subtle distinctions that differentiate Jack and Ennis -- the statement goes way beyond the surface of the obvious interpretation pertaining to sexual appetite.

Of course,it goes.There's also a distinction between Jack and Ennis libido,but this is only one of the differences,the littlest,between them.But one of the differences that make them also so complementaries.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: I'm not you Ennis
« Reply #59 on: Mar 17, 2008, 08:02 AM »
Of course,it goes.There's also a distinction between Jack and Ennis libido,but this is only one of the differences,the littlest,between them.But one of the differences that make them also so complementaries.

Yes, the mastery of desire -- or the intent to master it -- seemded to have strongly inhibited Ennis.  Jack did recognize that he didn't just have the mastery -- he recognized that he didn't want to.  He was more open to his own desires.  Perhaps this was one difference that Ennis secretly found appealing about Jack?