Topic: More Lame Questions: Why DIDN"T They Catch Any Fish?

[tpe]

I find it ironic that Jack actually got to meet and talk to Ennis's wife, and his girls. How likely is That? Equate it to the *other* woman , or in this case the *other man* meeting his lover's family.

Another Lame question....Did Jack *come on* to Randall?

The question is best pursued in the Randall thread.    But what do you mean exactly?  Personally, I think Jack pursued Randall -- as a diversion, initially...

[vedrana]

She certainly needed the release.  And I think it is no coincidence that after this scene, we don't see Alma ever again.  To have followed this up with some other scene would have been moot.

I never thought of it, but - very good point! 

[vedrana]

The question is best pursued in the Randall thread.    But what do you mean exactly?  Personally, I think Jack pursued Randall -- as a diversion, initially...

If I understood correctly, you think that Jack was after Randall ... Well I think that Randall was a very receptive, cos only Jack's significant look during the supper was enough for Randall to bring up a possibility to go to a cabin with Jack and do some relaxation(whatever that meant ...    ) 

Therefore, I believe that Randall was even braver that Jack and showed no hesitation to get his goal! IMO

[aintfoolin]

If I understood correctly, you think that Jack was after Randall ... Well I think that Randall was a very receptive, cos only Jack's significant look during the supper was enough for Randall to bring up a possibility to go to a cabin with Jack and do some relaxation(whatever that meant ...    ) 

Therefore, I believe that Randall was even braver that Jack and showed no hesitation to get his goal! IMO

I agree Jack was looking directly at Randall when he said "Wanna dance".? That in itself has some symbolism somewhere in it. Question is will the dance be fast or slow a  slow waltz, or a jitterbug?  and will anyone be stepping on any toes? Was this a tale-tell sign? the eye contact, or did Randall read more into it. If so ,how?How did Randall know to put the moves on Jack? or that Jack was even "approachable?  What, he just took a wild chance that Jack would'nt put his lights out?

I also find it ironic that Randall wanted to host a fishing trip and drink some whiskey, which had to take Jack's mind instantly back to Ennis. What would Ennis do if he found out? ...But Ennis was over 14 hours away when he needed him, Randall was right down the road.

 Tpe, a diversion? please explain. Diversion from what?

[BlueMountain]

Jack and Ennis were to buzy munching on each other, that they didn't have to fish to eat!

[tpe]

I never thought of it, but - very good point! 

Thanks Loreen.  If you think about it, Alma figured in very few scenes, but those moments were of great intensity/import.

If I understood correctly, you think that Jack was after Randall ... Well I think that Randall was a very receptive, cos only Jack's significant look during the supper was enough for Randall to bring up a possibility to go to a cabin with Jack and do some relaxation(whatever that meant ...    ) 

Therefore, I believe that Randall was even braver that Jack and showed no hesitation to get his goal! IMO

I agree. 

First, I would like to point out that everytjuing probably started with Randall's intense looks at the table.  This probably gave Jack an idea, and when they were waiting for their wives, Jack's attempt at conversation could very well be a form of probing/encouragement.  But again, it it Randall who openly suggests tryst. 

[tpe]

Tpe, a diversion? please explain. Diversion from what?

Hello aintfoolin.  What I meant by this is for something to pass the time, meaning that I don't think Jack ever thought it was ever going to be something serious -- well at least not serious enough (initially) to consider Randall and himself living together.

 

[tpe]

Jack and Ennis were to buzy munching on each other, that they didn't have to fish to eat!

Well, what you say here has a lot of truth to it. 

[vedrana]

First, I would like to point out that everytjuing probably started with Randall's intense looks at the table.  This probably gave Jack an idea, and when they were waiting for their wives, Jack's attempt at conversation could very well be a form of probing/encouragement.  But again, it it Randall who openly suggests tryst. 

I thought that was Jack who gave the first hint! Now that you say it was Randall, I'll be careful next time I watch BBM!

[aintfoolin]

Hello aintfoolin.  What I meant by this is for something to pass the time, meaning that I don't think Jack ever thought it was ever going to be something serious -- well at least not serious enough (initially) to consider Randall and himself living together.

 

Sometimes I wish I had more insight into this relationship, Jack and Randall. They met in 78, but if OMT is correct Randall was in the picture with Jack a good 4 yrs. I think your right about Jack's *small talk* on the bench outside, may have been encouragment for Randall to propose the fishing trip.
 I think he found Jack charming and  amusing  with the " powder their noses" comment. I'm speculating  and reaching that  MAYBE, Roy Taylor had done business with Jack, perhaps selling farm equipment to him, and since Randall is Roy's foreman, this would allow Jack and Randall to meet often  without suspicion.+ Randall only lived down the road. Is Randall one of the potential clients outside  in the the scene where Jack is demonstrating the bull dozer?

[tpe]

Sometimes I wish I had more insight into this relationship, Jack and Randall. They met in 78, but if OMT is correct Randall was in the picture with Jack a good 4 yrs. I think your right about Jack's *small talk* on the bench outside, may have been encouragment for Randall to propose the fishing trip.
 I think he found Jack charming and  amusing  with the " powder their noses" comment. I'm speculating  and reaching that  MAYBE, Roy Taylor had done business with Jack, perhaps selling farm equipment to him, and since Randall is Roy's foreman, this would allow Jack and Randall to meet often  without suspicion.+ Randall only lived down the road. Is Randall one of the potential clients outside  in the the scene where Jack is demonstrating the bull dozer?

Interesting comment, AF.  It looks quite probable that Jack had had dealings with Roy Taylor, given the nature of the business.  Like you, I too would have wished for a bit more insight into the relationship, although I must add that the mystery surrounding this is also quite effective...

In any case, I think Jack was much more careful than Ennis in keeping the relationship secret.  No question about catching any fishes here...

[tpe]

I’ve always thought that it was Randall who did the first move. He was staring at Jack so intensely during the whole dinner, so Jack had to stare back.
Outside, it was Jack who started the talk, but I think he did it because it was so tense and awkward to be sitting there in total silence. Or maybe because he was curious and he wanted to know why Randall was staring at him like that, or maybe only because he was polite. In any case, Jack looked tired, like talking with Randall was not fun at all. In the script Randall reacted to Jack’s small talk with equal tired attitude: “as if the vanity of women is a tiresome subject”…..Then he did a move again. But we have to look at Jack’s face after Randall proposed the fishing trip. Jack was not excited about it, or even stunned or surprised because that man, almost unknown, wanted to spend time with him. Jack’s mind was so far away, because the mention of a cabin, mountains, fishing, sure made him think about Ennis. And that hurt. Sure, when they were separated, Jack tried to lessen his pain by distracting his mind, and now Randall was making him think about Ennis again. In that moment I bet that Jack felt so alone, so miserable; he missed Ennis like crazy, and maybe he was even thinking that, yeah, he’d like to go to that cabin up that mountain, but with Ennis. He maybe thought that it was Ennis who had to be there, taking that trip with him. He sure thought that it was ironic: he dying to go on more fishing trips so he could spend more time with Ennis, and now here that man proposing him to do what Ennis was unable to do (because of work, his girls or whatever).

Jack didn’t even reply in that moment….Sure he did it sometime after that scene, but I think he did it because he was feeling alone, he was desperate and he needed male company, sex, whatever…He was hurting and he needed to forget for a while, or at least to try….So I think that Randall was only a way to lessen his pain and to fulfil his sexual needs. But I also think that with time Randall became so much more. In my opinion, only in my opinion, Jack never loved Randall. He was only in love with Ennis. But after 4 years of sharing sex, and spending time together, talking, drinking, having diner with the women, I bet that they became good friends. In a deleted scene two mechanics observe how Randall leaves Jack’s truck. It was 1981. So still then they were seen each other. So I really think that it was a sexual affair, without feelings about love, but I’m sure they were good friends.

I’m only talking about Jack’s feelings, because we know he was in love with Ennis. But I can’t talk about Randall feelings, because we know so little about him….I don’t know if he liked Jack only as a friend or if, with time, he fell in love, or it was only sex for him.

I’ve always wondered how Randall knew that he could made that move on Jack, and also if some night after drinking good whiskey and having a rough time, Jack talked to Randall about Ennis, about his feelings….
If Lureen and LaShawn got closer, if they became friends too, or if Jack and Randall shared more than fishing trips, I mean, if they had a work relationship too or if they were close neighbours, I suppose that Randall had to hear about Jack’s trips to North, to spend days “fishing” with an old friend…and knowing that Jack was gay and the nature of their own fishing trips, I think that maybe he knew…. But I’m only speculating…

What do you think?

Thank you!! 

Interesting opinion, Tammy.  I must apologize for perhaps moving the topic of this thread astray.  Perhaps we can continue this in the randall thread. 

I personally think that later, there must have been some feelings involved, especially if Randall agreed to live with Jack.  I also find the Cassie-Ennis relationship to be a possible mirror to the jack-Randall one.

To get back to the topic, I don't think Lureen ever suspected Randall.  To be sure, Jack must have been extra careful to appear consistent -- unlike Ennis with Alma.  But perhaps Lureen just didn't care, and it was much easier for Jack to get away with things...

[babytammy7]

I was talking to my best friend while having a drink in a beautiful place on the mountains. I was saying to Robert that I was dying to spend some days up on the mountains just like Ennis and Jack did. I mean, camping and having dinner with the starts above ours heads, drinking something delicious and talking all night around a fire. But then Robert said to me that I’d not really enjoy being on a mountain at night. I thought about it and about when my aunt broke her car and we spent an hour in total darkness in the middle of the forest. Yeah, the mountain at night is pretty scary, all pitch black, with all those sounds you can not identify…..

I don’t think I could spend a week out in the middle of nowhere just like Ennis and Jack did, with bears and coyotes out there…and no one to help them if something bad happened. Then I thought that it was even worse when they first were together up on Brokeback, because then and there Ennis and Jack slept alone, separated….And Ennis at least could light a fire, but Jack had to sleep in darkness, without a fire, and he was surrounded by coyotes…..That got me thinking…..and I found that I have some silly lame questions here….

1. If Jack was in total darkness, or Ennis when they traded jobs, how they could see and aim at the coyotes? When they had full moon they could see a tiny bit, but I don’t think they could see enough to kill a coyote, and you don’t have a full moon every day…..So how could Aguirre expect them to watch the sheep in total darkness? 

2. If they couldn’t light a fire and they had to roll up the pup tent every morning because Forest Service could snoops, how come that they could fire their 30-30? I mean, Forest Service could go and catch them doing something illegal because they saw the fire at night or because they saw the tent during the day….but, couldn’t the Forest Service hear the intense huge roar of a 30-30 several times in the middle of the night?   

3. Brokeback Mountain was a paradise for our boys, but they also had rough times there and they were pretty tired too….Ennis, or later Jack, had to chop wood at camp, go and get supplies on Fridays, wash the pots and stuff, wash the clothes, cook….And Jack and later Ennis, had to take care of the sheep, watch them, track down the coyotes, and ride here and there all day….Exhausting….
And Jack did all that completely alone the previous year….From the film and the SS we learn that Jack was alone on the mountain the previous year. How could he tend the camp, go and get supplies, watch the sheep, kill coyotes, wash his clothes, ride all day if he was alone? How could Aguirre expect that a 18 years old kid could handle that dangerous situation? And I said dangerous because what if Jack got sick, or he had an accident all alone up there without anyone to help him?  What if some bear attacked Jack?  I really think that Jack was not only SO brave to be all by himself on the mountain, but also he was so strong to work that hard and do all the chores that can wear out TWO men. My Jackey….

[BlueMountain]

3. Brokeback Mountain was a paradise for our boys, but they also had rough times there and they were pretty tired too….Ennis, or later Jack, had to chop wood at camp, go and get supplies on Fridays, wash the pots and stuff, wash the clothes, cook….And Jack and later Ennis, had to take care of the sheep, watch them, track down the coyotes, and ride here and there all day….Exhausting….
And Jack did all that completely alone the previous year….From the film and the SS we learn that Jack was alone on the mountain the previous year. How could he tend the camp, go and get supplies, watch the sheep, kill coyotes, wash his clothes, ride all day if he was alone? How could Aguirre expect that a 18 years old kid could handle that dangerous situation? And I said dangerous because what if Jack got sick, or he had an accident all alone up there without anyone to help him?  What if some bear attacked Jack?  I really think that Jack was not only SO brave to be all by himself on the mountain, but also he was so strong to work that hard and do all the chores that can wear out TWO men. My Jackey….

OMG I wish I could camp up on a mountain!

Yeah that's right... Hey, I didnt even know that Jack was 18!  Maybe because Aguiree was a selfish person who didnt care about Ennis or Jack...

[tpe]

I was talking to my best friend while having a drink in a beautiful place on the mountains. I was saying to Robert that I was dying to spend some days up on the mountains just like Ennis and Jack did. I mean, camping and having dinner with the starts above ours heads, drinking something delicious and talking all night around a fire. But then Robert said to me that I’d not really enjoy being on a mountain at night. I thought about it and about when my aunt broke her car and we spent an hour in total darkness in the middle of the forest. Yeah, the mountain at night is pretty scary, all pitch black, with all those sounds you can not identify…..

I don’t think I could spend a week out in the middle of nowhere just like Ennis and Jack did, with bears and coyotes out there…and no one to help them if something bad happened. Then I thought that it was even worse when they first were together up on Brokeback, because then and there Ennis and Jack slept alone, separated….And Ennis at least could light a fire, but Jack had to sleep in darkness, without a fire, and he was surrounded by coyotes…..That got me thinking…..and I found that I have some silly lame questions here….

1. If Jack was in total darkness, or Ennis when they traded jobs, how they could see and aim at the coyotes? When they had full moon they could see a tiny bit, but I don’t think they could see enough to kill a coyote, and you don’t have a full moon every day…..So how could Aguirre expect them to watch the sheep in total darkness? 

Yes, it would be difficult.  I think thier presence was more like a deterent -- they didn't need to kill the cayote -- only to scare them off should they attack the sheep at night.

2. If they couldn’t light a fire and they had to roll up the pup tent every morning because Forest Service could snoops, how come that they could fire their 30-30? I mean, Forest Service could go and catch them doing something illegal because they saw the fire at night or because they saw the tent during the day….but, couldn’t the Forest Service hear the intense huge roar of a 30-30 several times in the middle of the night?   

It would be highly unlikely that the forest service would be up there in the dead of night snooping around.  So to fire a shot then would probably not have mattered.  The forst service would have likely come in the early morning hours, and if they had a fire, then either the smoke or the remains would be seen in the morning.

3. Brokeback Mountain was a paradise for our boys, but they also had rough times there and they were pretty tired too….Ennis, or later Jack, had to chop wood at camp, go and get supplies on Fridays, wash the pots and stuff, wash the clothes, cook….And Jack and later Ennis, had to take care of the sheep, watch them, track down the coyotes, and ride here and there all day….Exhausting….
And Jack did all that completely alone the previous year….From the film and the SS we learn that Jack was alone on the mountain the previous year. How could he tend the camp, go and get supplies, watch the sheep, kill coyotes, wash his clothes, ride all day if he was alone? How could Aguirre expect that a 18 years old kid could handle that dangerous situation? And I said dangerous because what if Jack got sick, or he had an accident all alone up there without anyone to help him?  What if some bear attacked Jack?  I really think that Jack was not only SO brave to be all by himself on the mountain, but also he was so strong to work that hard and do all the chores that can wear out TWO men. My Jackey….

I don't think the story or the film said that Jack was alone, correct?  The implication was that Jack was the one assigned to sleep with the sheep, but he most likely had a camp tender.

[vedrana]

I don't think the story or the film said that Jack was alone, correct?  The implication was that Jack was the one assigned to sleep with the sheep, but he most likely had a camp tender.

... and maybe just then, a year earlier, Jack have had his opportunity (I mean - unlike Ennis who hadn't got it yet)

 

[tpe]

... and maybe just then, a year earlier, Jack have had his opportunity (I mean - unlike Ennis who hadn't got it yet)

 

Yes, it seems likely that Jack was more experienced... 

[myprivatejack]

... and maybe just then, a year earlier, Jack have had his opportunity (I mean - unlike Ennis who hadn't got it yet)

 

He seemed to be more experienced,yes,but we can't know if it was necessarily a year earlier on the mountain.If so,nature really inspired our boy ¡.

[vedrana]

He seemed to be more experienced,yes,but we can't know if it was necessarily a year earlier on the mountain.If so,nature really inspired our boy ¡.

Our Jack, you mean?

And together with Ennis nature inspired him even more...

[BlueMountain]

Our Jack, you mean?

And together with Ennis nature inspired him even more...

I hope Jack and I could be inspired together.

[vedrana]

I hope Jack and I could be inspired together.

You mean  or  or  ?

 

[tpe]

He seemed to be more experienced,yes,but we can't know if it was necessarily a year earlier on the mountain.If so,nature really inspired our boy ¡.

The way he was sizing up Ennis at the beginning, I am sure he had a practiced eye for such matters. 

We are definitely OT. 

I still say that Ennis was deliberately careless with Alma, especially about the fishing trips.  Perhaps there was even an implicit wish to be discovered...  Or to dare her to do whatever?  Was it a way for him to get back at her?

[vedrana]

The way he was sizing up Ennis at the beginning, I am sure he had a practiced eye for such matters. 

We are definitely OT. 

I still say that Ennis was deliberately careless with Alma, especially about the fishing trips.  Perhaps there was even an implicit wish to be discovered...  Or to dare her to do whatever?  Was it a way for him to get back at her?

Wasn't catching Ennis something like fishing? I mean - we are not soooo OT. Cos Jack had to prepare the bait and to be patient... 

As for Ennis, in the SS it was almost clear that he knew that Alma saw them kissing, right? And she didn't say anything. Possibly, he didn't want to put so much effort in something he didn't care about any more - if she knew or not. She was suppose to keep silence. Especially cos when preparing for "fishing" and after coming home he was thinking only about Jack. He couldn't even hide how happy he is. It was too much effort for him I think and he didn't care.

[myprivatejack]

The way he was sizing up Ennis at the beginning, I am sure he had a practiced eye for such matters. 

We are definitely OT. 

I still say that Ennis was deliberately careless with Alma, especially about the fishing trips.  Perhaps there was even an implicit wish to be discovered...  Or to dare her to do whatever?  Was it a way for him to get back at her?

No,Thomas,we are not OT... The thread says:"Why didn't they catch any fish?" and we're talking about nature;then,don't you see the rapport between both phrases?:How weren't they going to catch any fish if they catched a lot of very big and magnificent trouts ?...ehem,sorry
Speaking seriously,this is something that has always surprised me;being Ennis so careful with his relationship,why as he so careless about Alma knowing or not?I know,it's only one of his contradictions,but he didn't seem to realise how mischievous a despited woman can be.She perfectly could have said something to somebody in the right place,in the right moment,and he was dead...An unconscious search for a punishment,maybe?.

[tpe]

Wasn't catching Ennis something like fishing? I mean - we are not soooo OT. Cos Jack had to prepare the bait and to be patient... 

As for Ennis, in the SS it was almost clear that he knew that Alma saw them kissing, right? And she didn't say anything. Possibly, he didn't want to put so much effort in something he didn't care about any more - if she knew or not. She was suppose to keep silence. Especially cos when preparing for "fishing" and after coming home he was thinking only about Jack. He couldn't even hide how happy he is. It was too much effort for him I think and he didn't care.

It has been my belief that for Ennis, there were lines/subjects that he and Alma should not cross/discuss, and I do believe he felt that the fishing trips and Jack in particular would fall under this category...

[tpe]

No,Thomas,we are not OT... The thread says:"Why didn't they catch any fish?" and we're talking about nature;then,don't you see the rapport between both phrases?:How weren't they going to catch any fish if they catched a lot of very big and magnificent trouts ?...ehem,sorry
Speaking seriously,this is something that has always surprised me;being Ennis so careful with his relationship,why as he so careless about Alma knowing or not?I know,it's only one of his contradictions,but he didn't seem to realise how mischievous a despited woman can be.She perfectly could have said something to somebody in the right place,in the right moment,and he was dead...An unconscious search for a punishment,maybe?.

Perhaps it is an indication that as far as Alma was concerned, he no longer cared that much -- provided that she didn't air the dirty linens out in public.  Perhaps it was even a perverted way of getting back at Alma.  And perhaps it was also a dare: so now that you know, try doing anything about it!

[vedrana]

It has been my belief that for Ennis, there were lines/subjects that he and Alma should not cross/discuss, and I do believe he felt that the fishing trips and Jack in particular would fall under this category...

Yes, this is something I also said in a way. She was supposed to keep silent when it comes to Jack and their fishing trips. And he took that situation for granted - something that was obviously a part of his behavior!

[vedrana]

Perhaps it is an indication that as far as Alma was concerned, he no longer cared that much -- provided that she didn't air the dirty linens out in public.  Perhaps it was even a perverted way of getting back at Alma.  And perhaps it was also a dare: so now that you know, try doing anything about it!

As much as I'd love Ennis&Jack to be together, I don't think that Alma had any guilt to be punished for. It is only that maybe for Ennis she was the main obstacle for him and Jack - even if she really wasn't!
After the reunion kiss Ennis defended Alma in front of Jack who said : You and Alma, that's a life". But Ennis didn't say any nice words about Alma and their life together, only: It wasn't her fault!... Obviously Alma's role was being guilty or not. Later her "guilt" became even more emphasized as years were passing by and Ennis's yearning for Jack become stronger.

And maybe that was her "fault" which Ennis wanted to punish in a way, not even try to hide his relationship with Jack.

[tpe]

In many ways, the fundamental fault was Ennis's.  Only later on did I feel that Alma shared part of the blame.