Topic: What would you advise? Got a better idea?

[babytammy7]

Thank you,lamusica for your sensitive analysis;and to you,Lance,because you canalize all our feelings and sensations with your words,always so deep and expressive.
Yes,perhaps in the innest part of Ennis self there was an almost unconscious fear about not being loved for his faults and lacks;the same that there always was another fear,the one of loosing the persons who could love him in a way or another...    Perhaps these two fears,differents but interchangeables, were what made him react as a man with a great quantity of love to do-and a great need to love and being loved-,but with a great difficulty to express it and,maybe more still,to show himself in this way.As if he was denying it for another fear:show his vulnerability,a way in his opinion to lessen his virility-men donīt cry,donīt show themselves sensitive as women....-, another of his fears and negations-not to be queer..-.I think most of his silences,and also his occasional violence,come from all his frustations.
Itīs sure Jack realised somehow all these problems in his partner behaviour and,as you say,was careful in not make him feel uncomfortable neither in his uneducation nor in his poverty,what says a lot about him . But I guess that in this situation is very difficult to apply an advice that can be listened effectively,even for Jack, who counts with the almost hidden love Ennis felt for him in his favour as to change their present and their future-he was the only one who could make Ennis felt "important" for himself-.IMO.

Lamusica, Lance and Ali!!!

Very beautiful posts!!! Your all are right, and your thoughts are so true!!! Thank you so much for that.  

I felt sad thinking in this Ennis, ashamed of his lacks, his poverty, his sexuality, everything he was and had....  :\'(  :\'(  :\'( I can imagine how hard it have to be living with yourself when you almost hate yourself and besides you are not able to show how you are feeling inside..... :\'(  :\'(  :\'( It's normal that Ennis were reserved and sometimes violent if he couldn't stand himself in some ways.

You're so right Alice, Jack was the only person who could make Ennis felt accepted, loved and "important" for himself. Nice words friend!!!  

  It not so good for my PBS reading about this sad side of Ennis personality....My heart is broken thinking of him. Lance, finally you make me love Ennis as much as I love Jack.

[tpe]

Ennis had me at hello -- oops!  Wrong movie!
Well, I think Ennis is the embodiment of the character type that finds nothing in himself to love.  It wasn't just his reluctance to recognize his homosexuality that he didn't accept.  He also had a strong sense of his poverty and his station in life ( poor, uneducated, orphan, not much chance to ever become someone important).  All those negative feelings about himself show up over and over, scene after scene.AND, feeling that way, he overreacted to anyone who pointed out any of these shortcomings to him.  A poor person knows he's poor, but, when someone else calls him poor, he gets angry and denies his own poverty.  The same with a person who is basically uneducated.  He recognizes his shortcomings in himself, but woe to the person who points them out to him.  Therefore, Ennis, knowing what he is ( and not liking it at all), flies off the handle when anyone else even hints at his failures.
    I'm sure we've all seen the little boy who knows he did something wrong, but, when confronted by his mommy, goes into a tantrum.  This sort of stunted character development is very common, and Ennis is a perfect example of it.  That's not to say anything bad about Ennis, but just my take on why he manifests these varying personality traits.

Interesting points here, lamusica.  A certain type of inferiority complex is part and parcel of the whole, I guess.  I think advising him to show more emotion (as I said in my last post) would come a long way to making him accept himself with greater confidence.  I think part of any inferiority complex is the desire not to show who oneself really is...

[lancecowboy]

Thank you,lamusica for your sensitive analysis;and to you,Lance,because you canalize all our feelings and sensations with your words,always so deep and expressive.
Yes,perhaps in the innest part of Ennis self there was an almost unconscious fear about not being loved for his faults and lacks;the same that there always was another fear,the one of loosing the persons who could love him in a way or another...    Perhaps these two fears,differents but interchangeables, were what made him react as a man with a great quantity of love to do-and a great need to love and being loved-,but with a great difficulty to express it and,maybe more still,to show himself in this way.As if he was denying it for another fear:show his vulnerability,a way in his opinion to lessen his virility-men donīt cry,donīt show themselves sensitive as women....-, another of his fears and negations-not to be queer..-.I think most of his silences,and also his occasional violence,come from all his frustations.
Itīs sure Jack realised somehow all these problems in his partner behaviour and,as you say,was careful in not make him feel uncomfortable neither in his uneducation nor in his poverty,what says a lot about him . But I guess that in this situation is very difficult to apply an advice that can be listened effectively,even for Jack, who counts with the almost hidden love Ennis felt for him in his favour as to change their present and their future-he was the only one who could make Ennis felt "important" for himself-.IMO.

Grazias, myprivatejack. I am merely reflecting the depth of the feelings from you all, and from the movie. I love being the channel that carries so much love.

I think you are right on when you said, and I bolded above, Ennis has this two conflicts waging a war within himself all the time. In SNIT, the side that wants to be loved, that needs to be loved, won and the vulnerable Ennis showed up, surprising even Jack. When Jack is around, the fears are more controllable, and Ennis is fun and laughing a lot. When Jack is not around, Ennis is miserable because these fears, of losing Jack, of needing Jack when not suppose to, of losing Jack to Texas and rich money making Jack different and not remember what's it like to be poor all the time... Those quiet moments when Ennis was by himself, staring into empty bottles at the bar, or eating apple pie in the diner, were also moments when the battle must be raging with the most intense inner dialog.

Heath is the most amazing actor when he is quiet, when he can convey the inner soul of a character without saying a word. 

[lamusica]

Thank you, lance and Myprivatejack; it's nice to know some people see things the same way, or are open to the possibilities.  I love Ennis ( and Jack, really), but I also feel so deeply for Ennis.  There is something is him that resonates with me.  He's like a little boy, and I just want to hold him and convince him he is a good boy and a good person -- someone valuable -- not a loser, as he thinks.  You know how some people just pull at your heatstrings?  Well, that's Ennis for me.  He just seems so needy, which makes sense considering that he really never had the kind of love a child needs when he was growing up.  He missed a lot of nurturing.  Without that, a child always questions his value in relationship to other people.  Does anyone really love him?  Is there anything within him worth loving?  Since no one actually has shown him love, he questions his worth.  I think that's why he hangs onto Alma as long as he does.  She is the first person who seems to really love him, but then she causes him a lot of guilt because he cannot love her back. His heart is already taken.

[aintfoolin]

He certainly didn't try to show emotions, didn't he.  His stoicism belies a warm heart.  If there was any advice I'd give HIM, it would be this" don't be afraid to show vulnerability in the form of emotions.  It shows the depth of what being human is all about -- and quite sexy at times, too. 

  This is so true tpe, and a wonderful dicussion here by everyone. Yes he was a stubborn man, but he also was warm-hearted and very vulnerable man.  Especially when it came to his sexuality, he saw himself as a straight "man's man" in every sense of the word.....but...He was also a man at war with himself, an inner conflict which contained a vulnerability. Though in denial both sides of himself were very real. This is one thing he could not deny, He loved Jack, desired him, needed him for completion, yet could not bring himself to admit this fact denying himself as a whole person. Though when cornered as in the Thanksgiving scene , he comes out fighting and "defending " ( what he and Jack had was NOT "nasty" as Alma insinuates) Jack and his relationship with him. Yep he is fascinating and complex in the sense that with Jack , he is very emotionally connected. No matter what he says to Jack  ( I aint queer) and to himself , his actins speak louder than his words. He really can't help it . He is so much unto himself, but when he looks at Jack he sees what he cannot deny at that moment, the one he loves who just happens to be a man. MO.

[lancecowboy]

  This is so true tpe, and a wonderful dicussion here by everyone. Yes he was a stubborn man, but he also was warm-hearted and very vulnerable man.  Especially when it came to his sexuality, he saw himself as a straight "man's man" in every sense of the word.....but...He was also a man at war with himself, an inner conflict which contained a vulnerability. Though in denial both sides of himself were very real. This is one thing he could not deny, He loved Jack, desired him, needed him for completion, yet could not bring himself to admit this fact denying himself as a whole person. Though when cornered as in the Thanksgiving scene , he comes out fighting and "defending " ( what he and Jack had was NOT "nasty" as Alma insinuates) Jack and his relationship with him. Yep he is fascinating and complex in the sense that with Jack , he is very emotionally connected. No matter what he says to Jack  ( I aint queer) and to himself , his actins speak louder than his words. He really can't help it . He is so much unto himself, but when he looks at Jack he sees what he cannot deny at that moment, the one he loves who just happens to be a man. MO.

I agree. Words and feelings can be fooled and faked, but actions, especially repeated involuntary actions, speak louder than words, and truer too. The reunion kiss, the looks he gives Jack along with that unself-conscious grin, that's love when it's a force of nature. No denying it.

[aintfoolin]

 Thanx Cowboy,

 Your right, I loved the reunion scenes , especially everything that led up to the kiss is what really gets me. As time went on , and beer after beer was consumed I felt like I was waiting with Ennis. Jack made him wait, till the "if he shows" point. LOL. Finally he nods off in a chair. I think it was the 8th beer that did it! He's a nervous wreck, but ready...well, good and ready to see Jack again. By this point even I am pacing and asking the TV set questions like  where the hell is he?  . I love how everything around Ennis is normally going on, the child is being fed dinner and Alma has no idea what state Ennis is really in. I also love the subtle stuff thrown in , for example, Ennis so engrossed in his nervousness ( and new shirt) that he does'nt realize his beer is empty and immediatly goes for another. cigarettes are disappearing in a few drags!...  Meantime Alma is saying something to him about the Knife and Fork and Ennis is barely listening to her. Then of course he relizes that Alma is planning on maybe coming along?!!! Whoa! Not %(This is waaaay to private for company. Then Jack finally arrives and Ennis practically runs to the window. That's the smile I love. When he first lays eyes on Jack again. It's a smile from Ennis imo that says he's home again. He's alive again. I love it. Then of course Jack ,out there wondering if he has the right place when Ennis appears on the landing and Jack sees him. It's definitly on then. The embrace Ennis with outstreched arms before Jack even got to him. I thought Ennis would never let him go. Personally I'd have been satisfied with that... But then comes that award winning kiss ,a  slam dunk coupled with that little "look around".... I was sailing ...BLISS. Ledger nailed this role as Ennis,  perfection personified. The man deserved the Oscar for this scene alone, yet there were many others...  I have all his films on DVD, and am looking forward to TDK, no doubt he will make that role  ( The Joker)  all his own too. Amazing actor.

[lancecowboy]

Thanx Cowboy,

 Your right, I loved the reunion scenes , especially everything that led up to the kiss is what really gets me. As time went on , and beer after beer was consumed I felt like I was waiting with Ennis. Jack made him wait, till the "if he shows" point. LOL. Finally he nods off in a chair. I think it was the 8th beer that did it! He's a nervous wreck, but ready...well, good and ready to see Jack again. By this point even I am pacing and asking the TV set questions like  where the hell is he?  . I love how everything around Ennis is normally going on, the child is being fed dinner and Alma has no idea what state Ennis is really in. I also love the subtle stuff thrown in , for example, Ennis so engrossed in his nervousness ( and new shirt) that he does'nt realize his beer is empty and immediatly goes for another. cigarettes are disappearing in a few drags!...  Meantime Alma is saying something to him about the Knife and Fork and Ennis is barely listening to her. Then of course he relizes that Alma is planning on maybe coming along?!!! Whoa! Not %(This is waaaay to private for company. Then Jack finally arrives and Ennis practically runs to the window. That's the smile I love. When he first lays eyes on Jack again. It's a smile from Ennis imo that says he's home again. He's alive again. I love it. Then of course Jack ,out there wondering if he has the right place when Ennis appears on the landing and Jack sees him. It's definitly on then. The embrace Ennis with outstreched arms before Jack even got to him. I thought Ennis would never let him go. Personally I'd have been satisfied with that... But then comes that award winning kiss ,a  slam dunk coupled with that little "look around".... I was sailing ...BLISS. Ledger nailed this role as Ennis,  perfection personified. The man deserved the Oscar for this scene alone, yet there were many others...  I have all his films on DVD, and am looking forward to TDK, no doubt he will make that role  ( The Joker)  all his own too. Amazing actor.

Yup, Heath Ledger for Oscar!!! And he nailed the waiting part, too. Perfect in every way, even ignoring the fact that it's fourteen hours drive, and started waiting from afternoon till dinner time. It also meant that Jack started very early to get there with daylight.

I love it when Ennis flicked that lighter, waiting, thinking, remembering borrowing Jack's lighter in the bar that first time. Every detail in the movie makes it so real to me. Oops,  what were we saying? Giving advice to Ennis? or Jack? How about telling Ennis to pay more attention to Alma, or Jack to shower Lureen with romance, like their first dance? How about Jack leaving Lureen and moving closer to Riverton? How about Ennis taking up ranch work in Texas after the divorce? I think the problem with giving advice is in a way, playing the what if game, the could've and should've game. Games People Play is a great book. Transactional Analysis, too. In this case, it's not about Ennis and Jack doing anything differently. We all know what they could have and should have done. It is all about what they felt, what they did as the result of working together one summer in '63. Like someone else said, if we change anything in the movie, it won't be the same movie. And I love this particular movie.

 

[aintfoolin]

Well, I agree with everyone that Ennis, at the very least, would never talk about it with anyone. Heck, he couldn't even bring himself to talk about it with Jack!

But I look at this topic as more of an AU kind of question. If you were in a position of close friendship and you could offer them (or one of them ) advice, what would it be? Did I get that right, aintfoolin? In that case, I find it a fascinating question. I'm not quite sure what I'd tell either of them, though. Will have to give that some thought.

I do find it interesting that so many people would suggest Jack move closer to Ennis, though. Never mind the fact that, once again, that puts the burden of compromising for the relationship on his shoulders. There are practical reasons such a solution wouldn't make sense. First, he has a son. If he can't actually be with Ennis, why should he leave his son just on the off chance that proximity might at some point in the future help make Ennis come around? And second, Jack is able to drive up and make the meets with Ennis, on Ennis's work schedule precisely because of his personal situation. If he left to move closer to Ennis, there is nothing to say that he could find a job that would allow for them to spend time together at all. So all he would really accomplish is living closer to Ennis, without any guarantee that it would allow for more contact or that it would have any impact on Ennis's feelings about making a life together.

I like what jessi said about wanting to be a guardian angel to them. I guess what I would try most to convey to each of them is that what your heart draws you to is so much more important than anything outside of that. And that finding someone you want to be with in this world who wants to be with you is the best that anyone can hope for, whatever the risks. Too bad Ennis couldn't have a conversation with either Earl or Rich; maybe they could have shown him that some things are worth risking everything for (assuming either of them felt that way).

But what practical advice I would give them? Hmm, I'll have to think about it. Tough case.

 Thank you FlowerChild for explaining it better the context in which I started this thread. It is indeed an AU ( alternative universe or a parallele universe type question, not meant to change , add to, or take away from this original classic film  ( and complete finished product) that has touched us so deeply.

I only imply a "stepping outside the movie" context, and perspective, so that one could apply their own personal perspective to the goings on. How they handled the difficult dilelima in which they found themselves, again without changing the outcome in a REAL sense. imo what was NOT said and done is just as important as what WAS.
 I do find it fascinating to explore what did or did'nt happen that lead to the outcome. The film is what it is and of course will remain intact, regardless of our 2 cents worth of advice/opinion.

Thanks to all who have givin their opinion so far. I gain much knowledge from your personal perspectives.

Having said that,

The divorce scene is a perfect example of a scene that conjures up a lot of emotion , instead of leaving town as Jack did after driving so far, he deserved much more than he got. After all it was Ennis who contacted Jack concerning his freedom from Alma, therfore " implying" to Jack that now they could get on with their future together. I would advise Jack to wait a couple days until Enniis's time with his girls was finished, then confront him on the what, when, and why of the matter.  Yeah, I know Jack was'nt one to "press his luck" with Ennis, but in this world , I can allow him to. Perhaps had he gotten the answers he sought at this point, imo , maybe Mexico trip would'nt have happened. Maybe I'm wrong, but depending on what is said by Jack and Ennis when Jack returns would lessen the blow to Jack's heart wrenching rejection.

[tpe]

  This is so true tpe, and a wonderful dicussion here by everyone. Yes he was a stubborn man, but he also was warm-hearted and very vulnerable man.  Especially when it came to his sexuality, he saw himself as a straight "man's man" in every sense of the word.....but...He was also a man at war with himself, an inner conflict which contained a vulnerability. Though in denial both sides of himself were very real. This is one thing he could not deny, He loved Jack, desired him, needed him for completion, yet could not bring himself to admit this fact denying himself as a whole person. Though when cornered as in the Thanksgiving scene , he comes out fighting and "defending " ( what he and Jack had was NOT "nasty" as Alma insinuates) Jack and his relationship with him. Yep he is fascinating and complex in the sense that with Jack , he is very emotionally connected. No matter what he says to Jack  ( I aint queer) and to himself , his actins speak louder than his words. He really can't help it . He is so much unto himself, but when he looks at Jack he sees what he cannot deny at that moment, the one he loves who just happens to be a man. MO.

Ennis clearly had insecurities that he didn't seem to know how to deal with.  And I do think the insecurities are much more than questions on sexuality.  I think being deprived of love for most of his childhood became a real problem with him.  Jack was probably the first one to love him for what he truly was.