Topic: How do you see Jack?

[LuvJackNasty]

In some recent posts/discussions in this part of the forum, it honestly surprised me to realize that Jack is sometimes perceived as some opportunistic character, insensitive, even weak. I guess I have always somewhat related to Jack, and his role as the catalyst for much of what happened in BBM. I love both Jack and Ennis and think that they both did the best they could with what hands they were dealt in life. As discussed in many of the older threads, Ennis and Jack were so complementary that it is hard to think of either one as deliberately or involuntarily taking advantage of the other. I would like to open the discussion here, and would appreciate your thoughts. Do you think Jack was an opportunist or just a guy trying to make the best of his life?

[FlwrChild]

What a great topic! I have seen some discussions about the boys and their various motivations for certain behaviors too. It always fascinates me when someone describes Jack as calculating or self-serving. I just don't see it. Granted, I'm a Jack girl myself, but I also love them both, and all I see are two men doing the best they can, given their circumstances, to maintain a relationship the world says they're not supposed to have, in a time and place that makes it almost impossible for them to do so.

Especially considering the trauma that Ennis experienced as a child, I always thought that Jack's patience, and willingness to play by Ennis's rules, was part of what allowed them to stay together all those years.

I know a lot of people have strong opinions about these characters, so we'll all need to be mindful of each other's personal feelings and be respectful of each other at all times. I can't wait to see what impressions are shared here.

[jackster]

Do you think Jack was an opportunist or just a guy trying to make the best of his life?

Wikipedia describes opportunist behavior as unprincipled. I don't see how either Ennis or Jack could be described as being more unprincipled than the other. They're both having extramarital affairs which by some might be seen as unprincipled (breaking the vows, etc.). But in relation to each other? Huh? Maybe Jack lied to Ennis . . "He had been riding more than bulls . . " but I don't see that as a whopper worth remembering. I agree with your assessment, Jack's a catalyst; I would only add that Ennis was the fuel.

(I should have added the lie was in the SS only, but he more than made up for it with his honest admittal in the movie "Sometimes I miss you so much . . . " something Ennis wasn't able to do.)

[tpe]

I don't feel that Jack was an opportunist, as much as I don't feel that Ennis was heartless to those around him.

I see Jack first and foremost as a dreamer -- I never never tire of this image.  He is the Floating Bridge of Dreams -- the embodiment of the moira so central to this story.   And even though his dreams are never realized, it is his pursuit that moves us so. 

When the dreamer wakes in death, he carries the living in his wake.  It is no coincidence that the short story begins and ends with the haunting dream sequences... 

[jackster]

I don't feel that Jack was an opportunist, as much as I don't feel that Ennis was heartless to those around him.

I see Jack first and foremost as a dreamer -- I never never tire of this image.  He is the Floating Bridge of Dreams -- the embodiment of the moira so central to this story.   And even though his dreams are never realized, it is his pursuit that moves us so. 

When the dreamer wakes in death, he carries the living in his wake.  It is no coincidence that the short story begins and ends with the haunting dream sequences... 

Oh TPE, how beautiful . . . . 

[tpe]

Oh TPE, how beautiful . . . . 

Thanks jackster. 

As the Poet said:

Gladly I have tethered the treasure ship,
My dream on the first night of New Year
Beneath the floating bridge.

So it was with Jack.

[LuvJackNasty]

Wikipedia describes opportunist behavior as unprincipled. I don't see how either Ennis or Jack could be described as being more unprincipled than the other. They're both having extramarital affairs which by some might be seen as unprincipled (breaking the vows, etc.). But in relation to each other? Huh? Maybe Jack lied to Ennis . . "He had been riding more than bulls . . " but I don't see that as a whopper worth remembering. I agree with your assessment, Jack's a catalyst; I would only add that Ennis was the fuel.

(I should have added the lie was in the SS only, but he more than made up for it with his honest admittal in the movie "Sometimes I miss you so much . . . " something Ennis wasn't able to do.)

I may have used the wrong word. I guess I get a little bent out of shape when the financial situations are brought up. In the SS it clearly said that Lureen had the money and she called the shots but I think often times Jack is seen as someone who forgot where he came from. But to me Jack would have chucked it all and lived in a shack if Ennis said the word. And I think they purposely showed Lureen approaching Jack rather than the other way around to show that he didn't automatically get dollar signs in his eyes- but that's my opinion. There's no doubt Ennis had it rough money wise but money can't buy happiness as evidenced in the scenes when Bobby is first born right through that Thanksgiving scene when Jack gives LD what for. So I guess opportunistic was poor wording on my part.

I like the lines you quoted both from the SS and the movie. I have mixed feelings on the riding bulls line- It's a lie no argument there, but is is relevant or damaging? I mean in the years between BBM and the reunion, Jack must've figured Ennis was long gone and I think that the lie connects to the whole "I'm not queer" "Me neither" scenario- to tell the truth would probably make Ennis run if he figured Jack was queer. I guess it's no different than the whole fishing buddies story. ( Ihope I made sense- I'm kind of just thinking "aloud" )

And I agree- Ennis is most certainly the fuel.

[LuvJackNasty]

I don't feel that Jack was an opportunist, as much as I don't feel that Ennis was heartless to those around him.

I see Jack first and foremost as a dreamer -- I never never tire of this image.  He is the Floating Bridge of Dreams -- the embodiment of the moira so central to this story.   And even though his dreams are never realized, it is his pursuit that moves us so. 

When the dreamer wakes in death, he carries the living in his wake.  It is no coincidence that the short story begins and ends with the haunting dream sequences... 

Beautiful Thomas.  Jack the dreamer.  And I don't see Ennis as heartless either- just caught in his own loop as he said.

[tpe]

Beautiful Thomas.  Jack the dreamer.  And I don't see Ennis as heartless either- just caught in his own loop as he said.

As WW said in another part of this forum, it is Ennis's internalized stasis that jack constantky struggles with.  But I doubt that he didn't know about this from the beginning.  He accepted his love for Ennis as something fated.  In this aspect, he was also a dreamer, no?  He never considered the impediments once he recognized his love as his fate.

[aintfoolin]

In some recent posts/discussions in this part of the forum, it honestly surprised me to realize that Jack is sometimes perceived as some opportunistic character, insensitive, even weak. I guess I have always somewhat related to Jack, and his role as the catalyst for much of what happened in BBM. I love both Jack and Ennis and think that they both did the best they could with what hands they were dealt in life. As discussed in many of the older threads, Ennis and Jack were so complementary that it is hard to think of either one as deliberately or involuntarily taking advantage of the other. I would like to open the discussion here, and would appreciate your thoughts. Do you think Jack was an opportunist or just a guy trying to make the best of his life?

 Thank you LJN for this topic. Jack, my fav topic next to Ennis . I see him this way.

  The words you say some have used to describe him on the threads , Opportnistic, He was, but only in the sense that he simply took the chances presented to him and made the most of them. Some worked, some didn't, but whatever propelled his life forward, he accepted it. He was defintly a deamer, I see him as a "romantic dreamer". Within those opportunities, were his dreams. Look no further in how he handled the major challenges in his life to understand him. A product of his culture, I see him as a simple rural, country  boy with big dreams.

Insensitive? only in the sense of seeing something he wants and goes after it. made his own luck, taking more than few hard knocks. Could've had his daddy's ranch, but wanted his own. And for those who can sympathize with Alma and Lureen may see him as being insensitve to them. Also an unwiilingness to compromise on his dream , a sweet life with Ennis. though  imo, that is open for much speculation, but last, but certainly not least, weak.

 Weak, only in the sense that he was deeply in love with the man of his deams. He loved a challenge, but this one made no sense,  Tried everything in his power to solve the puzzle that was Ennis Del Mar. There was no easy solution to convince Ennis to live with him, yet he couldn't just let go .
He could easily see the sweet life in his head, but one crucial element was missing. When Jack takes a good look at WHY Ennis is missing, it becomes clear to him that to see  Ennis changing his behavior any time soon  is something he cannot accomplish alone.  therfore the dream start to fade.

He did'nt sweat the small stuff, a business would have been great, but what would be more special to him ? he would have Ennis, there with him, the one he loved to share a life with.

 Some say that Jack would not be faithful, even if Ennis had givin in, but I disagree, it was Ennis he loved so much that he could hardly stand it . That says alot about Jack imo. Why would he go elsewhere for sex, when he'd have what he's known for 20 years right there at home.  His need for somethin he "hardly ever gets" would be saciated with the one he loved, not strangers. Ennis would have grounded him in more ways than one imo.  I thought when Ennis asked him if he had a better idea? Jack should have deadpanned" Yeah, Ennis , If not a cow-calf operation, how bout a horse ranch, you're good at that"  "Think about it?? ( but that's just me and my wishful thinking)  If one wants to blame him for anything, blame him for being human. Personally, I adored him. My thoughts

[myprivatejack]

Ainfoolin, and for your wonderful defense of our Jack. He has some faults,of course, ad we´ve spoken a lot about them,but,as you say,his main fault-and his main quality-is BEING HUMAN and LOVE BEYOND WORDS,with everything this means,for bad or for good. I only can add that he was weak,sure,because he couldn´t manage his deep feelings for Ennis and his diffcult way of being sometimes;but at the same time,he was strong because he always kew what he wanted and fought for get it.And this during half his life,with a lot of problems and difficulties in between,so many that any other man in his case had given up sooner...
I don´t believe neither now nor before that he had been unfaithfull to Ennis if they have lived together,why?. I think his libido was greater than Ennis´s,or at least,this one could dominate it more as well as his feelings, but if he would have had everything he needed from his love, after so many years longing for it moreover,it´s sure he need not to look for some relief in husters or in any other man aside from Ennis. It d have been as wish a better job and when you get it,to resign.

[LuvJackNasty]

 Some say that Jack would not be faithful, even if Ennis had givin in, but I disagree, it was Ennis he loved so much that he could hardly stand it . That says alot about Jack imo. Why would he go elsewhere for sex, when he'd have what he's known for 20 years right there at home.  His need for somethin he "hardly ever gets" would be saciated with the one he loved, not strangers. Ennis would have grounded him in more ways than one imo.  I thought when Ennis asked him if he had a better idea? Jack should have deadpanned" Yeah, Ennis , If not a cow-calf operation, how bout a horse ranch, you're good at that"  "Think about it?? ( but that's just me and my wishful thinking)  If one wants to blame him for anything, blame him for being human. Personally, I adored him. My thoughts

Great post aintfoolin'.  I quoted this part because the whole faithful/unfaithful thing bugs me too. If he had Ennis why go anywhere else? Plus in most cases being unfaithful has nothing to do with sex- it has to do with needs-emotional needs- that aren't being met. Jack would have all he ever wanted if he had Ennis full time. That dream would have come true and their relationship was not about sex, it was about love and Jack wanted to share his life with the one he loved. I also think that Jack lamenting about "needing something that I don't hardly never get" wasn't about the sex act itself, but rather needing to be who he truly was- he wasn't able to compartmentalize as well as Ennis. But again that's just how I see it. I loved what you said about him being human! Jack, like anyone of us, was not perfect and given the situation he was in (well both of them actually) he did the best he could.

[LuvJackNasty]

I only can add that he was weak,sure,because he couldn´t manage his deep feelings for Ennis and his diffcult way of being sometimes;but at the same time,he was strong because he always kew what he wanted and fought for get it.And this during half his life,with a lot of problems and difficulties in between,so many that any other man in his case had given up sooner...

Excellent, MPJ! It took a lot of strength to continue in settling for only part of the dream. (I'm sure it was hard on both of them but this thread is about Jack so...)  Was he weak because he put up with it? I don't see it that way- his love was strong and that's what kept him coming back. Sometimes continuing to reach for the dream takes more strength than letting it go. 

[Tony]

    Hi-LuvJackNasty.   Your question caused me to re-think the whole movie.  Noticed that Jack was loveable---from the very start.  That
sputtering truck, the friendliness, rebuffed, at first, and his just being himself.  Ennis, on the other hand, avoidable, not showing much that
would interest anyone--we had to see more of Ennis, to love him.
   And this makes the casting  and the acting that much more skilled..  Jake is good-looking, but can play it up, as needed, and he did,
making Jack a handsome, romantic lead from the start.  Heath has a sturdy fan base lusting after him, and he chose to play down his looks,
so that he seemed ordinary, awkward, someone you would pass by on the street and forget.
    This alters the movie for me in that  Jack plays a stronger role in developing Ennis ability to love, by being, himself, loveable.  Had seen
that before, but not this strongly.
    Having seen the movie, we love them both.  But I kinda think if we had met them in Wyoming, we would have been immediately drawn
to Jack and would maybe have socially discarded Ennis as uninteresting.  We all can be guilty of putting too much into first meetings,
behavior and appearances.
   At any rate, Jack is the lover who forced Ennis to love.  That's how it seems to me.         Tony.

[LuvJackNasty]

At any rate, Jack is the lover who forced Ennis to love. I like that- well stated.  For me it's not the appearances- I related to Jack a lot in my own life and that's what drew me to the character. After my first viewing I was left thinking about Ennis- I wept over Jack's death (and the end of the movie) but my thoughts were with Ennis as the survivor. It was in the second viewing where Jack stole the show for me (and when I started to piece things together in terms of my strong reaction to the film). I do think if we met them on the streets of Wyoming we'd be more drawn to Jack but that is because he is more outgoing and Ennis probably would have shied away. "Knowing" these characters for so long now I'd love to know them both in real life. I feel protective of them both.

[aintfoolin]

Ainfoolin, and for your wonderful defense of our Jack. He has some faults,of course, ad we´ve spoken a lot about them,but,as you say,his main fault-and his main quality-is BEING HUMAN and LOVE BEYOND WORDS,with everything this means,for bad or for good. I only can add that he was weak,sure,because he couldn´t manage his deep feelings for Ennis and his diffcult way of being sometimes;but at the same time,he was strong because he always kew what he wanted and fought for get it.And this during half his life,with a lot of problems and difficulties in between,so many that any other man in his case had given up sooner...
I don´t believe neither now nor before that he had been unfaithfull to Ennis if they have lived together,why?. I think his libido was greater than Ennis´s,or at least,this one could dominate it more as well as his feelings, but if he would have had everything he needed from his love, after so many years longing for it moreover,it´s sure he need not to look for some relief in husters or in any other man aside from Ennis. It d have been as wish a better job and when you get it,to resign.

Thank you myprivatejack for your kind words.

Jack was'nt perfect but I have problems finding blame or fault in him.  Yep, there are directions he took that many of us disagree on or even disaprove of, but, again,  He was a human being. None of us have enough fingers to count how many times we tried to " fix" something only to find we f-cked up the matter even worse. We all make choices as just people. Jack nor anyone else is handed a manual for life's challenges, but some lucky ones among had a role model or good honest advisor. Jack and Ennis had niether. Again , they both took the opportunities pesented them , used human rationalizations in justifying their actions and made a choice.  as we all do.

As far as Jack's daliances in Mexico and else where, I still think he only did them because he was not with the one he loved. He only saw Ennis a couple times a year. I tend to agree with the statement above that it more an emotional release for him than anything else. These affairs had to be very unfullfilling to Jack as they were unemotional acts of favor, there was no bond, no human attachment in anyway for him. With Ennis he was comfortably aware who he had, he WANTED to be with him, he'd rather be with him. Had they lived together, this would fulfill every need he had emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally. When you have this in a sex parner, what more would he seek?

Some even say well, it's the "danger aspects" say Jack loved the chance of getting caught", or " sneaky aspects" involved in something like this. This is some one's opinion, and I deeply respect their right to have it , but I totally disagree. I feel Jack was more grounded than that. Some aspects of his personality and/or some of the actions he took could  be conscrued to some as Jack actually" liking "to cheat , but to me this is not the case.  He was'nt gonna settle for anything less  where sexual satisfaction was concerned. imo .Jack  only wanted Ennis really, anything else was small change, non-serious crap and substitutes for the real thing.  Ennis would have been enough, and according to the SS that ain't bad. The "brilliant couplings" even after years pass? With this imo, the story is told, not just about sex, but like LuvJackNasty said " a dream come true" for him in every way. My thoughts, Thanks.

[tpe]

Excellent, MPJ! It took a lot of strength to continue in settling for only part of the dream. (I'm sure it was hard on both of them but this thread is about Jack so...)  Was he weak because he put up with it? I don't see it that way- his love was strong and that's what kept him coming back. Sometimes continuing to reach for the dream takes more strength than letting it go. 

I agree.  The fact that he persisted against all odds for so many years makes him special.  So many of us can perhaps relate to him on this level...

[tpe]

   At any rate, Jack is the lover who forced Ennis to love.  That's how it seems to me.         Tony.

Very well said Tony.  It was no mean feat -- to love Ennis, and to persist in loving him in spite of everything.

[lamusica]

I love Jack for his innocence.  I don't mean his lack of experience where sex is concernred, because I think he had a lot of that, but he was innocent about love.  I think Ennis hit him like a freighttrain, out of the blue.  He fell fast and hard for this cowboy, having no clue about what might happen in the future.  I don't think Jack saw beyond the present, and all he could see was Ennis.
   Jack just reminds me of a little boy with a Christmas gift he'd been asking for for ages.  Here was Ennis -- everything he ever wanted.  He fell in love, stayed in love, and died still loving Ennis.  There's something great about that kind of constancy.  I don't believe there is anything Ennis could have done to turn Jack away from him.  Jack had that perseverance, even in a losing situation.  He could be depended upon, relied upon, called upon at any moment because he was a constant man.

[tpe]

I love Jack for his innocence.  I don't mean his lack of experience where sex is concernred, because I think he had a lot of that, but he was innocent about love.  I think Ennis hit him like a freighttrain, out of the blue.  He fell fast and hard for this cowboy, having no clue about what might happen in the future.  I don't think Jack saw beyond the present, and all he could see was Ennis.
   Jack just reminds me of a little boy with a Christmas gift he'd been asking for for ages.  Here was Ennis -- everything he ever wanted.  He fell in love, stayed in love, and died still loving Ennis.  There's something great about that kind of constancy.  I don't believe there is anything Ennis could have done to turn Jack away from him.  Jack had that perseverance, even in a losing situation.  He could be depended upon, relied upon, called upon at any moment because he was a constant man.

You make here a most wonderful distinction, lamusica.  Thank you.  It is true that he had this innocence when it came to his love for Ennis -- it remained pure even in the most sordid of excapades.  It reminds me again of the Poet, who wrote:

........................  Και τώρα πια ζητεί
στα χείλη καθενός  καινούριου εραστή
τα χείλη τα δικά του·  στην ένωσι με κάθε
καινούριον εραστή  ζητεί να πλανηθεί
πως είναι ο ίδιος νέος,  πως δίδεται σ' εκείνον.


............................... And he now tries to find
his lips in the lips of each new lover,
he tries in the embrace of each new lover
to convince himself that it's the same young man,
that it's to him he gives himself.

[myprivatejack]

I love Jack for his innocence.  I don't mean his lack of experience where sex is concernred, because I think he had a lot of that, but he was innocent about love.  I think Ennis hit him like a freighttrain, out of the blue.  He fell fast and hard for this cowboy, having no clue about what might happen in the future.  I don't think Jack saw beyond the present, and all he could see was Ennis.
   Jack just reminds me of a little boy with a Christmas gift he'd been asking for for ages.  Here was Ennis -- everything he ever wanted.  He fell in love, stayed in love, and died still loving Ennis.  There's something great about that kind of constancy.  I don't believe there is anything Ennis could have done to turn Jack away from him.  Jack had that perseverance, even in a losing situation.  He could be depended upon, relied upon, called upon at any moment because he was a constant man.

Thank you,lamusica,for having made me see a Jack´s side I´d never thought about;I mean I´ve never described Jack as "innocent" about love.But it´s true,he was a pure soul,no matter how many one-night lovers could he have along his life...You´re right,he was giving himself enterely to the man he loved,with innocence,with purity in his feelings and the way to show them...As this wonderful poetry says,tpe,wasn´t he trying to find Ennis´ body,lips,hands,perhaps love,in every man he was almost forced to be with?

[tpe]

Thank you,lamusica,for having made me see a Jack´s side I´d never thought about;I mean I´ve never described Jack as "innocent" about love.But it´s true,he was a pure soul,no matter how many one-night lovers could he have along his life...You´re right,he was giving himself enterely to the man he loved,with innocence,with purity in his feelings and the way to show them...As this wonderful poetry says,tpe,wasn´t he trying to find Ennis´ body,lips,hands,perhaps love,in every man he was almost forced to be with?

Yes, but as with the poem, he fails to really find the Beloved in all of his transient loves. 

[lancecowboy]

You make here a most wonderful distinction, lamusica.  Thank you.  It is true that he had this innocence when it came to his love for Ennis -- it remained pure even in the most sordid of excapades.  It reminds me again of the Poet, who wrote:

........................  Και τώρα πια ζητεί
στα χείλη καθενός  καινούριου εραστή
τα χείλη τα δικά του·  στην ένωσι με κάθε
καινούριον εραστή  ζητεί να πλανηθεί
πως είναι ο ίδιος νέος,  πως δίδεται σ' εκείνον.


............................... And he now tries to find
his lips in the lips of each new lover,
he tries in the embrace of each new lover
to convince himself that it's the same young man,
that it's to him he gives himself.

Thanks, tpe, it is so beautiful, and true...

Our memories drive us to act in ways that seem mysterious to the outside world,
but it's perfectly sensible to the psyche caught in the web of love's beauty.

I am glad to see this thread, and the discussion here. I must come clean and say that I was the one who started the defamation of Jack fricking Twist as the opportunistic, in fact, I think the exact word I used was manipulative.  I don't think Jack is neither one of these, now that I understand his motivations better, and see the overall big picture instead of the isolated incident in FNIT, or SNIT. He certainly is a doer who goes out and get what he wants. And we can only do that when the opportunities present themselves, and we maneuver for advantages. Being good at that does not make Jack an opportunist nor a manipulator. Although it can appear that way when his actions are viewed in isolation, from each other, and from his motivations.

I am actually beginning to see a lot of myself in Jack's character, as I have in Ennis' as well. I guess that's what make the movie so powerful, our ability to put ourselves in their shoes.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks, tpe, it is so beautiful, and true...

Our memories drive us to act in ways that seem mysterious to the outside world,
but it's perfectly sensible to the psyche caught in the web of love's beauty.

I am glad to see this thread, and the discussion here. I must come clean and say that I was the one who started the defamation of Jack fricking Twist as the opportunistic, in fact, I think the exact word I used was manipulative.  I don't think Jack is neither one of these, now that I understand his motivations better, and see the overall big picture instead of the isolated incident in FNIT, or SNIT. He certainly is a doer who goes out and get what he wants. And we can only do that when the opportunities present themselves, and we maneuver for advantages. Being good at that does not make Jack an opportunist nor a manipulator. Although it can appear that way when his actions are viewed in isolation, from each other, and from his motivations.

I am actually beginning to see a lot of myself in Jack's character, as I have in Ennis' as well. I guess that's what make the movie so powerful, our ability to put ourselves in their shoes.

Lance, welcome again¡.Manipulative or opportunistic...Aren´t we so-no matter how hard these words sound-when we´re in love? We take avantage of the opportunities we have for our benefit,it´s to say;to recover or get the one we love.Jack was a fighter in same way,he knew how to get what  he wanted and had things very  clear  in  this sense,and  everything was leading to love,because above all he was a man in  love.Nothing more than this.
And  yes,one of the best  assets of the movie,maybe  the  best,is how it treats our  feelings to get identified with the  characters,no matter if we´re gay or straight,no matter if we´ve  lived a similar experience or not...

[ayasha]

  everybody, MPJ, Lance welcome back!

I've been reading the posts in this topic and it reminded me to one theme in the musical 'Evita'. I loved the soundtrack of the movie and used to listen to it pretty often those days. The chorus of that theme says:

"There is no one, no one at all
Never has been, and never will be a lover, male or female
Who hasn't an eye on, in fact they rely on
Tricks they can try on their partner
They're hoping their lover will help them or keep them
Support them, promote them
Don't blame them, you're the same"

It doesnt mean that love is selfish or manipulative, because it's actually the opposite but, when we love someone (except the unconditional love from a mother, for example) we expect some feedback, and if we don't get it in some level, frustration can make us do crazy things, sometimes kinda 'selfish' (I don't speak about extreme behaviours which are always bad)

Take for example the scene of their last meeting, in the lake, when Ennis says 'i could kill you if I knew what you do in Mexico' 'it's because of you i'm like this' 'why don't you let me be' 'i can't stand this anymore' etc...Could we say Ennis tries to manipulate Jack? Maybe that would be a rational explanation of the situation, but we all know when it's about feelings, we humans are not 100% rational.

IMO both Jack and Ennis 'manipulate' each other, but it's human nature and out of love  :\'( (but again I wanna emphasize it never justifies extreme behaviours)

[lancecowboy]

Hi, ayashae, myprivatejack, thank you for the warm welcome back. It makes the feeling of home in this forum all the more real and poignant for me. 

I agree with you both that we all do what Jack did when we are in love and try to win the love of the one we desire.

The difference I see between this honorable behavior and those who manipulate is that fine line when someone crosses over from good to evil. It is as Alexander Solzhenitsyn said in his Gulag Archipelagos that there is a fine line that divides every human heart, regardless of creed, politics, religion, sex, etc. We are all capable of good and evil. The difference is whether we act on the desire for selfish gains at the expense of other's suffering.

I think the difference between manipulation and winning the love of one's amore, is that we ultimately allow the person we love to choose, to decide, freely, once we have presented our case the best we could.  We make the best impression, create the best atmosphere and mood, etc, but we leave the decision to the person. Evil manipulative people would go beyond that fine line, and use control and coercion to force whether physically or psychologically, even nowadays pharmaceutically, to submit to no choice at all. That, to me, is not love, but only selfish rape and abuse of body or soul.

I agree that Jack is not like that. I guess I am merely projecting what I have suffered myself onto what Ennis was going through after FNIT. His ride away from Jack, his encounter with the dead sheep as a parallel to his traumatic encounter with Earl, and finally, his redemption by hunting down the coyote. I think he felt unclean after the experience, and perhaps used, and that is why he refused to talk with Jack, until he performed a ritual of redemption. And then, after declaring his clear message on the mountain, he was ready for SNIT, but only hesitantly. It was only after he was in Jack's arms, feeling the comfort of his embrace, the sound of his soft whispers, and the gentleness of his caresses, that Ennis finally surrendered and trusted Jack, and gave in to his own feelings.

everybody, MPJ, Lance welcome back!

I've been reading the posts in this topic and it reminded me to one theme in the musical 'Evita'. I loved the soundtrack of the movie and used to listen to it pretty often those days. The chorus of that theme says:

"There is no one, no one at all
Never has been, and never will be a lover, male or female
Who hasn't an eye on, in fact they rely on
Tricks they can try on their partner
They're hoping their lover will help them or keep them
Support them, promote them
Don't blame them, you're the same"

It doesnt mean that love is selfish or manipulative, because it's actually the opposite but, when we love someone (except the unconditional love from a mother, for example) we expect some feedback, and if we don't get it in some level, frustration can make us do crazy things, sometimes kinda 'selfish' (I don't speak about extreme behaviours which are always bad)

Take for example the scene of their last meeting, in the lake, when Ennis says 'i could kill you if I knew what you do in Mexico' 'it's because of you i'm like this' 'why don't you let me be' 'i can't stand this anymore' etc...Could we say Ennis tries to manipulate Jack? Maybe that would be a rational explanation of the situation, but we all know when it's about feelings, we humans are not 100% rational.

IMO both Jack and Ennis 'manipulate' each other, but it's human nature and out of love  :\'( (but again I wanna emphasize it never justifies extreme behaviours)

I think that, ultimately, if we truly love someone, we put his happiness above our own, and accept the choice, however painful for us, if it meant less pain for them. It is what Jack did for Ennis, when Ennis said he could not take this any more, or in Sweet Home Alabama, when the bridegroom suffered public humiliation, yet, willingly let the woman he loved to return to the man she loved. True love means that the feedback from the other person will force us to accept the other person's feelings as our own, indeed, more than our own, and put their happiness before all else. That's what Ennis and Jack had. Their love is demonstrated in all the little acts of loving kindness throughout the movie, as others have already pointed out. (Thank you manhattangirl, flwrchild) The difference between selfish manipulation and selfless loving kindness is no where more clearly demonstrated than in their loyal relationship over twenty years.

So again, I apologize to all the Jack fans out there, and retract any implications that Jack was anything but honorable in his pursuit of Ennis' affection. His loyalty to Ennis for twenty years is proof enough of that.

Lance, welcome again¡.Manipulative or opportunistic...Aren´t we so-no matter how hard these words sound-when we´re in love? We take avantage of the opportunities we have for our benefit,it´s to say;to recover or get the one we love.Jack was a fighter in same way,he knew how to get what  he wanted and had things very  clear  in  this sense,and  everything was leading to love,because above all he was a man in  love.Nothing more than this.
And  yes,one of the best  assets of the movie,maybe  the  best,is how it treats our  feelings to get identified with the  characters,no matter if we´re gay or straight,no matter if we´ve  lived a similar experience or not...

[tpe]

everybody, MPJ, Lance welcome back!

I've been reading the posts in this topic and it reminded me to one theme in the musical 'Evita'. I loved the soundtrack of the movie and used to listen to it pretty often those days. The chorus of that theme says:

"There is no one, no one at all
Never has been, and never will be a lover, male or female
Who hasn't an eye on, in fact they rely on
Tricks they can try on their partner
They're hoping their lover will help them or keep them
Support them, promote them
Don't blame them, you're the same"

It doesnt mean that love is selfish or manipulative, because it's actually the opposite but, when we love someone (except the unconditional love from a mother, for example) we expect some feedback, and if we don't get it in some level, frustration can make us do crazy things, sometimes kinda 'selfish' (I don't speak about extreme behaviours which are always bad)

Take for example the scene of their last meeting, in the lake, when Ennis says 'i could kill you if I knew what you do in Mexico' 'it's because of you i'm like this' 'why don't you let me be' 'i can't stand this anymore' etc...Could we say Ennis tries to manipulate Jack? Maybe that would be a rational explanation of the situation, but we all know when it's about feelings, we humans are not 100% rational.

IMO both Jack and Ennis 'manipulate' each other, but it's human nature and out of love  :\'( (but again I wanna emphasize it never justifies extreme behaviours)

Thanks ayashae.  Good examples to support your point.  You are right to use quotes, although I don't think forms of manipulation are bad in and of themselves.  Most relationships use them in one form or another, as part of the overall "give and take" that make relationships truly binding.

Emotional blackmail can of course be part of such manipulations, and we see this I think in several instances in BBM.  I think such instances must be understood in terms of the emotional context of each scene, and such instances are best understood in context.

No love is perfect, but no fault araising from love is all bad.  Such things sometimes give the needed push to bring back a sense of balance.  It is through conflict and misunderstandings that love in much or real life grows and matures to become truly selfless.

 

[LuvJackNasty]

I think that, ultimately, if we truly love someone, we put his happiness above our own, and accept the choice, however painful for us, if it meant less pain for them. It is what Jack did for Ennis, when Ennis said he could not take this any more, or in Sweet Home Alabama, when the bridegroom suffered public humiliation, yet, willingly let the woman he loved to return to the man she loved. True love means that the feedback from the other person will force us to accept the other person's feelings as our own, indeed, more than our own, and put their happiness before all else. That's what Ennis and Jack had. Their love is demonstrated in all the little acts of loving kindness throughout the movie, as others have already pointed out. (Thank you manhattangirl, flwrchild) The difference between selfish manipulation and selfless loving kindness is no where more clearly demonstrated than in their loyal relationship over twenty years.

So again, I apologize to all the Jack fans out there, and retract any implications that Jack was anything but honorable in his pursuit of Ennis' affection. His loyalty to Ennis for twenty years is proof enough of that.

Very well stated, LC! There's no need to apologize for anything- we all have our own individual reactions to this story/film. I think we all identify with one more than the other. I definitely identify with Jack and am a "Jack girl" but I love Ennis, too. There's no "right" or "wrong" in how we see the boys or how we feel- this was their story, we were priveleged to be a part of it and we made it our own.

[lancecowboy]

Very well stated, LC! There's no need to apologize for anything- we all have our own individual reactions to this story/film. I think we all identify with one more than the other. I definitely identify with Jack and am a "Jack girl" but I love Ennis, too. There's no "right" or "wrong" in how we see the boys or how we feel- this was their story, we were priveleged to be a part of it and we made it our own.

That is so true, LJN, we are indeed privileged to be a part of this great love story. And the inclusiveness of the story is what makes this forum also such a home to all of us. And as in any family, although apologies are not required, it is always good manners to admit my mistakes. Confessions also help cleanse the soul. So please accept my apologies for my sake, so I know that no one holds a grudge against my newbie reaction to what has been the most powerful movie in my life. The impact of this movie on me cannot be overstated. I understand everyone's reaction to it is different, and there is no right or wrong answers. I am only grateful that I have this wonderful gift, unasked for, unexpected, and I thought, undeserved. Thank you for your wonderful post sharing The Awakening. It is the culmination of my own transformation as a result of this movie and this forum. I think it is the power of love to transform that attracts so many of us to this movie. I am certain that Ennis and Jack were each transformed by the love they shared. I think that brought us back to topic  and I will stop here before I get the angry OT sign.

I see Jack as the usual carefree happy go lucky sort, with a bravado that's bigger than he really is, but his love for Ennis, and being loved by Ennis, made him a better man, a better father, and perhaps, maybe even a better husband, though still not perfect. We would never know what Jack would be like without Ennis, but it is not difficult to speculate that without the stable influence of Brokeback Mountain, or Ennis' anchor, Jack would have long drifted away from Laureen seeking love elsewhere, perhaps in the big city, chasing after his paradise where blue birds sing and there is a whiskey spring. And perhaps, who knows, he might have been better off. The truth is, I think even Jack would have preferred to have loved Ennis, and died early, than to not have loved Ennis, and lived a life time of empty dreams.

[ayasha]

Hey 

I've enjoyed reading every single post in this thread    Hope I could hear you all

And this during half his life,with a lot of problems and difficulties in between,so many that any other man in his case had given up sooner...

Especially considering the trauma that Ennis experienced as a child, I always thought that Jack's patience, and willingness to play by Ennis's rules, was part of what allowed them to stay together all those years.

I totally agree with both of you MPJ and FC. I'm more an Ennis type person, and I must admit I'm not easy to understand, and to bear! And also, I must admit it'd be hard for me having the patience Jack has with Ennis, there are many situations that Jack is extremely generous with him, devoted, loving, understanding...lamusica pointed it in this post

I love Jack for his innocence.  I don't mean his lack of experience where sex is concernred, because I think he had a lot of that, but he was innocent about love.  I think Ennis hit him like a freighttrain, out of the blue.  He fell fast and hard for this cowboy, having no clue about what might happen in the future.  I don't think Jack saw beyond the present, and all he could see was Ennis.
   Jack just reminds me of a little boy with a Christmas gift he'd been asking for for ages.  Here was Ennis -- everything he ever wanted.  He fell in love, stayed in love, and died still loving Ennis.  There's something great about that kind of constancy.  I don't believe there is anything Ennis could have done to turn Jack away from him.  Jack had that perseverance, even in a losing situation.  He could be depended upon, relied upon, called upon at any moment because he was a constant man.

Jack's moments of weakness IMO, are totally meaningless: They're only a way of trying to find relief from frustration. For me, it's clear that when he 'stumbles' (Mexico and so on) those are the moments that 'misses Ennis so much that he can hardly stand it'. He needs a way of escaping of his pain (even if, as aintfoolin said "These affairs had to be very unfullfilling to Jack as they were unemotional acts of favor, there was no bond, no human attachment in anyway for him")

Thanks ayashae.  Good examples to support your point.  You are right to use quotes, although I don't think forms of manipulation are bad in and of themselves.  Most relationships use them in one form or another, as part of the overall "give and take" that make relationships truly binding.

Emotional blackmail can of course be part of such manipulations, and we see this I think in several instances in BBM.  I think such instances must be understood in terms of the emotional context of each scene, and such instances are best understood in context.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood you tpe or I was misunderstood    (english isn't my mother tongue, sometimes I can't read between the lines  )  When you said "although I don't think forms of manipulation are bad in and of themselves.  Most relationships use them in one form or another, as part of the overall "give and take" that make relationships truly binding" That's what I meant (I think): there's some level of 'manipulation' we all humans practice when we are in love, and it's not positive or negative, just something natural. Excuse me if I was or I am messy.

So again, I apologize to all the Jack fans out there, and retract any implications that Jack was anything but honorable in his pursuit of Ennis' affection. His loyalty to Ennis for twenty years is proof enough of that.

I fully understood you when you said "I guess I am merely projecting what I have suffered myself onto what Ennis was going through after FNIT". As I said I'm an Ennis type of person, so I can 'walk in his shoes' easier than in Jack's but, when I can think not affected by my own emotions, I deeply appreciate Jack type person's personality and attitude cos it takes the best of me. Just like Jack took the best of Ennis...

I see Jack as the usual carefree happy go lucky sort, with a bravado that's bigger than he really is, but his love for Ennis, and being loved by Ennis, made him a better man, a better father, and perhaps, maybe even a better husband, though still not perfect. We would never know what Jack would be like without Ennis, but it is not difficult to speculate that without the stable influence of Brokeback Mountain, or Ennis' anchor, Jack would have long drifted away from Laureen seeking love elsewhere

Exactly: no Ennis without Jack, no Jack without Ennis...they took the best of each other's out  :\'(

Please excuse me for this long messy post...