Topic: How do you see Jack?

[manhattangirl]

sorry to be a pain but what does IMO mean i see it alot but dont undertstand it 

In My Opinion IMO

[Matt Nasty]

thanks i kind of got the jist of it but wasn't sure lol sometimes i am stupid lol

[tpe]

sorry to be a pain but what does IMO mean i see it alot but dont undertstand it 

OT:  In My Opinion. 

[aintfoolin]

And they needed each other not only for love reasons,but because each one of them are what the other had wanted to be somehow,IMO.

 I see what you mean MPJ,

 Jack was in all likelyhood searching for acceptance. He'd had enough rejection to last a lifetime.  Being an only child, growing up in isolated LF, with a domineering cold father figure who rejects him. This had to affect Jack in a major way.

 Perhaps he knew his father suspected his attraction for other men, I don't know , but he might as well have known it. Jack said he could'nt please him no how , no matter how he tried. What did the old coot expect, when he never botherd to teach Jack a thing? Had he showed a little  interest in Jack growing up, maybe Jack would have been more willing to do more for him.  Whatever he learned, he learned on his own and that has a limiting affect.

Jack did go on to a *better* life , marrying rich, but in my experience when your raised in a rural setting, you always have that love of the land and wide open spaces. It's familiar and calls you back home. I feel it's true in Jack's case too.  Hold up in some mansion in Texas in a controlled ,sham marriage under LD'd thumb was not his idea of  real, complete happiness.

 Though he excelled in his job as a salesman, it was due to his his personality and learned knowledge of the inner workings of this million dollar company. He knew how to sell the product, but underneath was still his love of ranch life. It's what he wanted to share with Ennis, who also appreciated a love of the land. He was knowledgable in dealings with people, getting one to buy what he was selling , Ennis had the understanding of animals, a partnership that fit hand in glove in Jack's pursuit of his dream. He'd  have the added bonus of working, living and feeling   settled down with the one he loved and cherished.

This way, he'd  have the acceptance  and love  of the land he sought so desperately, always there with him in the form of  a life with Ennis. Not his daddy's  spread or LD's property, but he and Ennis's own little  operation together. I think he found familiarity and comfort in that.  It was worth a shot imo. Just a thought or 2.

[Matt Nasty]

I see what you mean MPJ,

 Jack was in all likelyhood searching for acceptance. He'd had enough rejection to last a lifetime.  Being an only child, growing up in isolated LF, with a domineering cold father figure who rejects him. This had to affect Jack in a major way.

Perhaps he knew his father suspected his attraction for other men, I don't know , but he might as well have known it. Jack said he could'nt please him no how , no matter how he tried. What did the old coot expect, when he never botherd to teach Jack a thing? Had he showed a little  interest in Jack growing up, maybe Jack would have been more willing to do more for him.  Whatever he learned, he learned on his own and that has a limiting affect.

Jack did go on to a *better* life , marrying rich, but in my experience when your raised in a rural setting, you always have that love of the land and wide open spaces. It's familiar and calls you back home. I feel it's true in Jack's case too.  Hold up in some mansion in Texas in a controlled ,sham marriage under LD'd thumb was not his idea of  real, complete happiness.

 Though he excelled in his job as a salesman, it was due to his his personality and learned knowledge of the inner workings of this million dollar company. He knew how to sell the product, but underneath was still his love of ranch life. It's what he wanted to share with Ennis, who also appreciated a love of the land. He was knowledgable in dealings with people, getting one to buy what he was selling , Ennis had the understanding of animals, a partnership that fit hand in glove in Jack's pursuit of his dream. He'd  have the added bonus of working, living and feeling   settled down with the one he loved and cherished.

This way, he'd  have the acceptance  and love  of the land he sought so desperately, always there with him in the form of  a life with Ennis. Not his daddy's  spread or LD's property, but he and Ennis's own little  operation together. I think he found familiarity and comfort in that.  It was worth a shot imo. Just a thought or 2.

funny you should mention that  about jacks dad i always felt jack knew that his father suspected him and i think the scene in which ennis visits jacks parents makes it clear that his father indeed did, his father didnt seem to pretend he didnt suspect either i assume he also never hid the fact he suspected from jack

[tpe]

I see what you mean MPJ,

 Jack was in all likelyhood searching for acceptance. He'd had enough rejection to last a lifetime.  Being an only child, growing up in isolated LF, with a domineering cold father figure who rejects him. This had to affect Jack in a major way.

 Perhaps he knew his father suspected his attraction for other men, I don't know , but he might as well have known it. Jack said he could'nt please him no how , no matter how he tried. What did the old coot expect, when he never botherd to teach Jack a thing? Had he showed a little  interest in Jack growing up, maybe Jack would have been more willing to do more for him.  Whatever he learned, he learned on his own and that has a limiting affect.

Jack did go on to a *better* life , marrying rich, but in my experience when your raised in a rural setting, you always have that love of the land and wide open spaces. It's familiar and calls you back home. I feel it's true in Jack's case too.  Hold up in some mansion in Texas in a controlled ,sham marriage under LD'd thumb was not his idea of  real, complete happiness.

 Though he excelled in his job as a salesman, it was due to his his personality and learned knowledge of the inner workings of this million dollar company. He knew how to sell the product, but underneath was still his love of ranch life. It's what he wanted to share with Ennis, who also appreciated a love of the land. He was knowledgable in dealings with people, getting one to buy what he was selling , Ennis had the understanding of animals, a partnership that fit hand in glove in Jack's pursuit of his dream. He'd  have the added bonus of working, living and feeling   settled down with the one he loved and cherished.

This way, he'd  have the acceptance  and love  of the land he sought so desperately, always there with him in the form of  a life with Ennis. Not his daddy's  spread or LD's property, but he and Ennis's own little  operation together. I think he found familiarity and comfort in that.  It was worth a shot imo. Just a thought or 2.

Very insightful post, aintfoolin.  What you say here does epitomize the dilemma that is Jack.  We see him embody something similar to "Rosebud" in Citizen Cane.  It also reminds you of the the adage "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"  In this case, I see the soul of Jack to be in Ennis.  It was the one element that he lacked, that one thing that would give him true happiness.  What I see in Jack is a beauty marred by a single blemish -- that of someone wanting so much to give and to love, but is not allowed to by the other.

[FlwrChild]

Very insightful post, aintfoolin.  What you say here does epitomize the dilemma that is Jack.  We see him embody something similar to "Rosebud" in Citizen Cane.  It also reminds you of the the adage "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"  In this case, I see the soul of Jack to be in Ennis.  It was the one element that he lacked, that one thing that would give him true happiness.  What I see in Jack is a beauty marred by a single blemish -- that of someone wanting so much to give and to love, but is not allowed to by the other.

Beautifully put Thomas. That's our Jack all right.

[tpe]

Beautifully put Thomas. That's our Jack all right.

Perhaps he should have forced the issue.    Did the last confrontation have an effect?  Not much, according to the ss, but it did imply that there was a minute change -- ever so slightly...  Perhaps this would have been enough, and the tragedy is that he never tried to find out.

[FlwrChild]

I agree. That to me is the essence of the tragedy. That we, and Ennis, will never know what might have been, and will always have to live with the regrets of what was and wasn't done.


Sorry if that was a little OT.

[Tony]

   How do I see Jack?  Ouch.  This very simple question set me off so bad, I'm afraid this will be a very long reply.  But, in my answer, I need to hook up a wild and wooly take on human history, Jack AND Ennis, Heath and Jake, and, yes, the origins of PBS syndrome.  The short answer is that I see Jack as REAL, or better said, realistic, and that's why we love him. But now I have to (being Tony) go off on a larger explanation.
  We are in the forest, so we can't see the trees.  We do not ever wonder much over the pervasiveness of the concept of being "cool", as opposed to being "real".  If we are honest, "cool" is the be-all and end-all of whatever is attractive.  The highest compliment we can give is to say: that's cool.
But this is fairly new in human history, causes a great deal of theatrical posing, and makes us less real, as human beings.
  NOBODY had any concept of being cool over most of our history, at least not to the extremes of modern times.  We find the social phenomenon appearing in Russia after one single book- "A Hero of Our Times", which has a soldier becoming a romantic poser, an earlier cynic like Holden Caulfield. In Great Britain, we find "cool" becoming urgently necessary under the foppish George IV.  In the song "Yankee Doodle" Americans are mocked for believing themselves to be cool for wearing feathers in their cap and calling it macaroni (cool).  In the U.S., cool took off like a rocket with the hippie movement and also the Kennedy Camelot years. Nobody was "cool" in the 1950's.
  Yet this all pervasive goal, of being cool, came at the cost of posing, theatricality, and a loss of being....yourself.  Cool vs. Real.  Jack got his hooks into us by being UN-cool, and therefore...real.  Consider these scenes where cool and suave are played down, to enhance "real".
-the sputtering clanky pick-up at the start of the film. Uncool.  Not a Porsche.  Real.
-goofy talk in the bar, with Ennis. Real.
-unable to ride his horse gracefully (low startle point, warns Ennis). Real.
-drunken singing of "water-walking Jesus". Real.
-FNIT-not smooth, suave, but rather, jerky, clumsy.  Very real.
-rebuffed by the clown.  Uncool. Unwanted. Real.

   And this careful down-playing of "cool", which goes on and on, made for a credibility, to Ennis, who loved him for beng real, and also to us.
We really can't love "cool". As in "A Love Story", with Ali McGraw.  That fades away too quickly.  This is not to say that elements of "cool" aren't there in the film, as we are so infected with this social revolution in our mind-sets, they had to leave some in.  But there was in the film, the unrelenting choice of real over cool, that traces to the works of Annie Proulx, who is a gifted renewer of....the real.

    So that's how I see Jack.  As real.  But in the context of defying literary, social, and film wallowing in..."cool".  And, yes, I do see the irony of two of the hippest, coolest young actors deconstructing "cool" and going for real.  I would note-Heath Ledger's triumphs, were when he discarded his naturally cool, hip image and went for real, even to the point of looking unattractive.

   Finally, I think this is the origin of PBS syndrome.  They did it.  They dropped theatricality and posing, went for real, succeeded, and playing two "losers", made us believe them and love them.  We have that stab in our heart, because they got past our shallow world of "cool", were themselves, and brought us back to where humanity ought to be....moping along, joys and pains, but ever....real.
-

[anne]

Sad, that I can't translate and post what I think about him. But perhaps I can say something anyway. :D


Well, In my opinion, he was a great dreamer. He wanted to love and be loved, to feel, that somebody needed him, somebody wanted to spend lifetime with him. 

[FlwrChild]

I think that's very well said Anne.

Jack the dreamer. One of his most endearing qualities.

And Tony, you really nailed it. I have always said that what I loved most about Jack is that he is real. He's not perfect. He's just a guy, not very educated, not blessed with a loving or privileged upbringing. Just a guy who loves one person for his entire adult life and does so steadfastly and wholly.


So the two of you pretty much summed up both the way I see Jack and the reason I love him.

[tpe]

   How do I see Jack?  Ouch.  This very simple question set me off so bad, I'm afraid this will be a very long reply.  But, in my answer, I need to hook up a wild and wooly take on human history, Jack AND Ennis, Heath and Jake, and, yes, the origins of PBS syndrome.  The short answer is that I see Jack as REAL, or better said, realistic, and that's why we love him. But now I have to (being Tony) go off on a larger explanation.
  We are in the forest, so we can't see the trees.  We do not ever wonder much over the pervasiveness of the concept of being "cool", as opposed to being "real".  If we are honest, "cool" is the be-all and end-all of whatever is attractive.  The highest compliment we can give is to say: that's cool.
But this is fairly new in human history, causes a great deal of theatrical posing, and makes us less real, as human beings.
  NOBODY had any concept of being cool over most of our history, at least not to the extremes of modern times.  We find the social phenomenon appearing in Russia after one single book- "A Hero of Our Times", which has a soldier becoming a romantic poser, an earlier cynic like Holden Caulfield. In Great Britain, we find "cool" becoming urgently necessary under the foppish George IV.  In the song "Yankee Doodle" Americans are mocked for believing themselves to be cool for wearing feathers in their cap and calling it macaroni (cool).  In the U.S., cool took off like a rocket with the hippie movement and also the Kennedy Camelot years. Nobody was "cool" in the 1950's.
  Yet this all pervasive goal, of being cool, came at the cost of posing, theatricality, and a loss of being....yourself.  Cool vs. Real.  Jack got his hooks into us by being UN-cool, and therefore...real.  Consider these scenes where cool and suave are played down, to enhance "real".
-the sputtering clanky pick-up at the start of the film. Uncool.  Not a Porsche.  Real.
-goofy talk in the bar, with Ennis. Real.
-unable to ride his horse gracefully (low startle point, warns Ennis). Real.
-drunken singing of "water-walking Jesus". Real.
-FNIT-not smooth, suave, but rather, jerky, clumsy.  Very real.
-rebuffed by the clown.  Uncool. Unwanted. Real.

   And this careful down-playing of "cool", which goes on and on, made for a credibility, to Ennis, who loved him for beng real, and also to us.
We really can't love "cool". As in "A Love Story", with Ali McGraw.  That fades away too quickly.  This is not to say that elements of "cool" aren't there in the film, as we are so infected with this social revolution in our mind-sets, they had to leave some in.  But there was in the film, the unrelenting choice of real over cool, that traces to the works of Annie Proulx, who is a gifted renewer of....the real.

    So that's how I see Jack.  As real.  But in the context of defying literary, social, and film wallowing in..."cool".  And, yes, I do see the irony of two of the hippest, coolest young actors deconstructing "cool" and going for real.  I would note-Heath Ledger's triumphs, were when he discarded his naturally cool, hip image and went for real, even to the point of looking unattractive.

   Finally, I think this is the origin of PBS syndrome.  They did it.  They dropped theatricality and posing, went for real, succeeded, and playing two "losers", made us believe them and love them.  We have that stab in our heart, because they got past our shallow world of "cool", were themselves, and brought us back to where humanity ought to be....moping along, joys and pains, but ever....real.
-

I do think I can approximate what you say here by describing Jack as earnest, no?  There was nothing artful about him.  He wore his heart on his sleeve.  He didn't care how he looked or how vulnerable he would seem.  I think this approximates what being un-cool means in this context.

[tpe]

Sad, that I can't translate and post what I think about him. But perhaps I can say something anyway. :D


Well, In my opinion, he was a great dreamer. He wanted to love and be loved, to feel, that somebody needed him, somebody wanted to spend lifetime with him. 

I think that's very well said Anne.

Jack the dreamer. One of his most endearing qualities.

And Tony, you really nailed it. I have always said that what I loved most about Jack is that he is real. He's not perfect. He's just a guy, not very educated, not blessed with a loving or privileged upbringing. Just a guy who loves one person for his entire adult life and does so steadfastly and wholly.


So the two of you pretty much summed up both the way I see Jack and the reason I love him.

I think the "dreamer" is the Jack attribute I love the  most. 

[FlwrChild]

I do think I can approximate what you say here by describing Jack as earnest, no?  There was nothing artful about him.  He wore his heart on his sleeve.  He didn't care how he looked or how vulnerable he would seem.  I think this approximates what being un-cool means in this context.

Beautifully put tpe, and I completely agree.

[Tony]

  Dear Thomas - yes, that's what I meant, exactly.  You do this in a few sentences or less, where it takes me 5 paragraphs.  Jack was earnest, and he was real, and, yes, by modern standards, that can be un-cool. By the way, that's what I see in the rodeo clown incident.  Not a pick-up rejection, but a social put-down---Jack was judged --- un-cool.  Too eager.

[myprivatejack]

Beautiful posts yours¡...I really agree in that Jack,the same than Ennis,is so real as to get identified with him;and they're so real because there's no point of heroicism in them.On one hand,they needed to be a kind of heroes to deffend their love and the life's style that this meant, if they'd arrived to share this "sweet life" in such a difficult social and religious environment.But their heroicism comes from the normality,not from any extraordinary situation or behaviour.
And on the other hand,they're just like all of us,with their-and our-faults,mistakes,doubts,and even this unavoidable hurt to third persons-like Cassie's or Alma's case,f.e.-.They're  not like the romantic prince of a Fairy's tale;THEY´RE REAL,AUTHENTICAL,AND HUMAN.
They're two persons who love and are loved in a way that most of the current love stories don't show.I think it's easy to get identified with them no matter our sexual tendencies or gender,because they love as any of us would be loved and love,or as some of us have loved and be loved in any time of our lives.And mainly with Jack,because all of us know what is be heartbroken for rejections one hasn't looked for...Simply this.And excuse me if I've been slightly  .

[Tony]

  Dear MPJ, why would that be off-topic?  I thought it was well-spoken and right on target.

[Matt Nasty]

  Dear MPJ, why would that be off-topic?  I thought it was well-spoken and right on target.

so did i

[myprivatejack]

  Dear MPJ, why would that be off-topic?  I thought it was well-spoken and right on target.

so did i

boys¡ I meant that I was speaking more about the ensemble of both than about only Jack...That was the OT.  

[babytammy7]

I do think I can approximate what you say here by describing Jack as earnest, no?  There was nothing artful about him.  He wore his heart on his sleeve.  He didn't care how he looked or how vulnerable he would seem.  I think this approximates what being un-cool means in this context.

I think the "dreamer" is the Jack attribute I love the  most. 

Beautiful Thomas!! I totally agree!!

Tony I agree with you too. I was so happy because I saw a post of yours!!!        That was great, friend!!

[Tony]

  Thanks, Baby Tammy....but I still need to work on brevity.  Even so, we all are in agreement that Jack was all the more loveable for being real.
Maybe the very first time he really got past Ennis' defenses, was when he kept insisting he could handle the mare with a low startle point.  The look on Ennis face, as he sees Jack's over-confidence and even absurdity, is the first look that seems headed.....for love.  It's Ennis' first "bonding" with Jack, seeing him as imperfect but good-natured.
  And it is true....how can we ever deeply love a perfect person?  We need to see some faults, so that they become real and we can identify with them.
Well, times up, Tammy---you are being called back to the fan-fic section, and me to Ooh, Baby Pix.  They're on to us and we are only allowed out for brief excursions.  Is that legal?

[babytammy7]

  Thanks, Baby Tammy....but I still need to work on brevity.  Even so, we all are in agreement that Jack was all the more loveable for being real.
Maybe the very first time he really got past Ennis' defenses, was when he kept insisting he could handle the mare with a low startle point.  The look on Ennis face, as he sees Jack's over-confidence and even absurdity, is the first look that seems headed.....for love.  It's Ennis' first "bonding" with Jack, seeing him as imperfect but good-natured.
  And it is true....how can we ever deeply love a perfect person?  We need to see some faults, so that they become real and we can identify with them.Well, times up, Tammy---you are being called back to the fan-fic section, and me to Ooh, Baby Pix.  They're on to us and we are only allowed out for brief excursions.  Is that legal?

I always say that I want and need to see faults in people, to not hate myself because of my owns faults. If I see how people is wrong sometimes because they are just only human beings, I can be more tolerant with myself.....I think we can't not relate to someone perfect, or love someone perfect because our side in the balance always will be half empty and that will make us feel miserable....That's why Ennis was confortable with Jack, because Jack was just like him, someone who had good qualities and a lot of faults, someone real, just a human being. Ennis could see himself through Jack's eyes and not feel like a looser...or maybe because he was a looser but Jack too, he felt that he was not alone....that he finally met someone just like him, you know, like Annie said, a pair of deuces...

Yeah, baby, we are half on board again...but don't want to know what kind of sad things I'm reading sometimes..... I hope you're feeling better. 

[tpe]

Thnaks friends. 

Tony, don't worry: you expressed it well.  Your post gave me the idea about earnestness.

And I agree here on the subject of authenticity.  Ennis and Jack are very real, very human.  With Jack, we see authenticity in the way he simply follows how he feels.  I think we as human beings are like that -- no matter what our mind says, sometimes, it is the heart that pulls the strings.

[myprivatejack]

I think that Jack is a person with an incredible amount of love to give and an incredible need to be loved;from his childhood,he had to demonstrate his value before an authoritarian father who,whatever he did, was always going to see the negative part and, therefore, never would have a word of support and encouragement for his son.This must develop a need to prove,first before himself,that this wasn't true,that he could be appreciated and loved for who he was and how he was,nothing more.
I also think that they mirrored in each other,since both of them were kind of uprooted boys who felt like having a place that they could called of their own,and with someone of their own too inside...Each one's needs,frustrations and faults are the other's need,frustrations and faults;each one of them needs to feel important to someone else,much more if this someone is just like he is...Being different in way of being and reactions,both of them are the same inside,IMO.

[lamusica]

I'm not sure if anyone here will agree with my perception of Jack, but here goes:
Seeing Jack from my perspective ( a 63 year old woman) causes me to see him as childlike and innocent.  Now, I know his chronological age, and I know he's been around the block sexually, but that's not what I'm talking about here.  When I look at Jack, I see a sweet, loving young boy.  He wears his heart on his sleeve because he has not yet learned to be wary, or to fear what others think about him.  That's what I mean about his being naive and innocent.  I watch how he moves, how he glances at people, how he smiles, and there is always that boyish quality, that charm, that makes my mother's heart melt.  The first time he crosses the line into being a real man is when he puts JD in his place, and he gets immediate results!  I love Jack for the little, subtle nuances with which he has peppered his performance: the nuzzle with Ennis after their hot reunion kisses, the tears after Ennis rejects him after the divorce, the glances he sends Lureen, the glances he sends the clown ( much warmer and much more hopeful), the wistfulness he shows when he and Ennis say good-bye after they come down from the mountain.  All these little actions just make me love him more.  I love Jack because of his realness, as you said, Tony.  He remains a little boy in so many ways up until he dies.  He even keeps that little streak of selfishness; he DOES want things his way.
     Now, Ennis is a man.  They may be the same age, but I see none of the little boy left in Ennis, perhaps because responsibility came to him so much earlier than it did to Jack. So, maybe it's this meshing of the man and the boy that is so intriguing to me and some others.  God knows, I don't want to mother Ennis.  Does this makes sense to anyone?

[lancecowboy]

I think that Jack is a person with an incredible amount of love to give and an incredible need to be loved;
[...]

I think that encapsulates everything best about Jack. I also see him as a dreamer who sees the world not as it is, but what it can become. He is an optimist, full of hope and gentleness, seeing not the faults, the inadequacies of the people he met, but their strength, their potentialities. He inherited that from his Ma.

Just like Harry Feversham was Murial Feversham's son, so Jack Twist was Jack's Ma's son, not the old man's.

[welshwitch]

I have a feeling that Jack amuses Ennis in that scene with the mare and maybe elsewhere too. Someone who makes you smile, not in a mocking way but just in recognition of how unconsciously absurd humans can sometimes be, is someone with whom you can get on terms. And I don't think there's been much humor or frivolity in Ennis's life.

[lancecowboy]

I have a feeling that Jack amuses Ennis in that scene with the mare and maybe elsewhere too. Someone who makes you smile, not in a mocking way but just in recognition of how unconsciously absurd humans can sometimes be, is someone with whom you can get on terms. And I don't think there's been much humor or frivolity in Ennis's life.

yup, the only times when Ennis smiled in the movie was when he was with Jack, or when he first married Alma. Rest of the time, Ennis was as miserable as can be. Even in his love making with Alma, he wore a frown.

Cassie was able to make Ennis smile, too, but not to the same degree as Jack did. But, like Cassie said, "Girls don't fall in love with fun."

[tpe]

THanks friends.

I find lamusica's comment here to be perceptive:  "He wears his heart on his sleeve because he has not yet learned to be wary, or to fear what others think about him."

And this one from MPJ: "This must develop a need to prove,first before himself,that this wasn't true,that he could be appreciated and loved for who he was and how he was,nothing more."


I read the exchange between WW and lance and do agree with lance that there is a difference in the way Cassie and Jack make Ennis smile.  And I do echo WW here: "Someone who makes you smile, not in a mocking way but just in recognition of how unconsciously absurd humans can sometimes be, is someone with whom you can get on terms."