Topic: How do you see Jack?

[LuvJackNasty]

We would never know what Jack would be like without Ennis, but it is not difficult to speculate that without the stable influence of Brokeback Mountain, or Ennis' anchor, Jack would have long drifted away from Laureen seeking love elsewhere, perhaps in the big city, chasing after his paradise where blue birds sing and there is a whiskey spring. And perhaps, who knows, he might have been better off. The truth is, I think even Jack would have preferred to have loved Ennis, and died early, than to not have loved Ennis, and lived a life time of empty dreams.

How true- we don't know what what Jack would be like without Ennis. We get sort of a glimpse in those few years between Brokeback and when they reunite. In the SS it says that Jack had been riding more than bulls- so it's safe to say that he had the occassional fling. I see those few scenes- the bar with Jimbo etc as Jack just being lonely, perhaps even trying to find that feeling that he had up on BBM or at the very least finding a friend because when Ennis walked away in '63 Jack lost his friend as well as his lover. I think him seeking Ennis out after all of those years is really the heart of the matter- whether he had the occassional fling or whored around- there was no one that gave him what Ennis did- and that was love.

The childhood abuse he suffered also comes into play with his attachment to not only Ennis but also him clinging to his dream. Ennis was the one person (besides Mama Twist, IMO) that truly saw Jack for who he really was deep down inside and that was powerful to Jack. I take my daughter to a therapist once a week and long story short, the doctor likes BBM. She's not a huge Brokie or anything but we often talk about the movie and forum etc after session- she's fascinated by this and thinks it's a great thing. I had brought up the abuse part of Jack's life and she agreed that being brought up the way Jack was did make him cling harder- made him want the life and the person that made him feel good even more.

And I agree- Jack would have loved Ennis and died young than to not have had him in his life at all.

[lancecowboy]

Thanks for the insightful comments, LJN.

How true- we don't know what what Jack would be like without Ennis. We get sort of a glimpse in those few years between Brokeback and when they reunite. In the SS it says that Jack had been riding more than bulls- so it's safe to say that he had the occassional fling. I see those few scenes- the bar with Jimbo etc as Jack just being lonely, perhaps even trying to find that feeling that he had up on BBM or at the very least finding a friend because when Ennis walked away in '63 Jack lost his friend as well as his lover. I think him seeking Ennis out after all of those years is really the heart of the matter- whether he had the occassional fling or whored around- there was no one that gave him what Ennis did- and that was love.

The childhood abuse he suffered also comes into play with his attachment to not only Ennis but also him clinging to his dream. Ennis was the one person (besides Mama Twist, IMO) that truly saw Jack for who he really was deep down inside and that was powerful to Jack. I take my daughter to a therapist once a week and long story short, the doctor likes BBM. She's not a huge Brokie or anything but we often talk about the movie and forum etc after session- she's fascinated by this and thinks it's a great thing. I had brought up the abuse part of Jack's life and she agreed that being brought up the way Jack was did make him cling harder- made him want the life and the person that made him feel good even more.

And I agree- Jack would have loved Ennis and died young than to not have had him in his life at all.

I am still sorting out the short story in my mind, and also the difference between the screenplay and the movie. I truly appreciate the contribution from Ang Lee, Heath Ledger, and all other people on the set who inspired the little details that made the film so real and more powerful than the screenplay. I think a lot of Jack was also from Jake's own interpretation. As Anne Proulx said, these characters took on a life of their own and became real in the movie, and in our hearts.

[lancecowboy]

Hey 
I've enjoyed reading every single post in this thread    Hope I could hear you all
[...]
Exactly: no Ennis without Jack, no Jack without Ennis...they took the best of each other's out  :\'(
Please excuse me for this long messy post...

You are always ayashae . I hear you and understand. Just like Ennis and Jack, we all in this forum bring out the best in each other, and as in any friendship, like the fresh prairie wind, I gently sift through your words and find the kernels that I treasure. And like Ennis responding to Jack, sometimes I may not say much, with a grunt here or there, but always with loving care.

Please post away...I get you.

[manhattangirl]

There was one moment, for me that I was really proud of Jack, and that's when he stood up to LD at Thanksgiving.   It was like Jack finally came into his own, late but it happened.  When he stood up and carved the turkey, in his own home he established his place as head of that houshold.    I wonder did this give Jack the courage to confront Ennis, to claim his place in this relationship. 

[myprivatejack]

There was one moment, for me that I was really proud of Jack, and that's when he stood up to LD at Thanksgiving.   It was like Jack finally came into his own, late but it happened.  When he stood up and carved the turkey, in his own home he established his place as head of that houshold.    I wonder did this give Jack the courage to confront Ennis, to claim his place in this relationship. 

Me too, manhattangirl.What I feel sorry for is that Jack really had not the same anger and self-esteem to confront Ennis much before their final scene together.

[ayasha]

You are always ayashae . I hear you and understand. Just like Ennis and Jack, we all in this forum bring out the best in each other, and as in any friendship, like the fresh prairie wind, I gently sift through your words and find the kernels that I treasure. And like Ennis responding to Jack, sometimes I may not say much, with a grunt here or there, but always with loving care.

Please post away...I get you.

Hi Lance, I see you online

You're right this forum's got...kind of synergy effect: the whole is greater than the sum of the parts 

...The childhood abuse he suffered also comes into play with his attachment to not only Ennis but also him clinging to his dream. Ennis was the one person (besides Mama Twist, IMO) that truly saw Jack for who he really was deep down inside and that was powerful to Jack.
(...)
And I agree- Jack would have loved Ennis and died young than to not have had him in his life at all.

I see Jack as the usual carefree happy go lucky sort, with a bravado that's bigger than he really is, but his love for Ennis, and being loved by Ennis, made him a better man, a better father, and perhaps, maybe even a better husband, though still not perfect. We would never know what Jack would be like without Ennis, but it is not difficult to speculate that without the stable influence of Brokeback Mountain, or Ennis' anchor, Jack would have long drifted away from Laureen seeking love elsewhere, perhaps in the big city, chasing after his paradise where blue birds sing and there is a whiskey spring. And perhaps, who knows, he might have been better off. The truth is, I think even Jack would have preferred to have loved Ennis, and died early, than to not have loved Ennis, and lived a life time of empty dreams.

I think Ennis and Jack were lucky people, honestly. Despite Jack's death being so young (.. :\'(), leaving Ennis in loneliness, despite they didn't live a life together, despite their meetings were few and short...Most people never experience what they did, a true spirit connection, soul to soul communication. Despite all the fears doubts and hesitation from both parts, deep inside, they knew each other, understood completely each other, that's so hard to find! It's a true miracle of destiny: that special connection makes the 2 souls reach higher levels, and it happens only to a few privileged ones... :\'(

[BBBOY]

What a fasinating thread you have going here.  Keep up the good work. 

[FlwrChild]

Wow, What a great thread this has turned out to be. 

I've kind of been lurking in the shadows, because I didn't want to hog all the screentime (as you know, I can get a bit chatty ). I'm loving all of these opinions and insights you've all been sharing.

LJN, jackster, tpe, aintfoolin, mpj, Tony, lamusica, lc, ayashae, and manhattangirl, I just have to say it's been wonderful to read you. And I don't think there's any one right way to see Jack, or Ennis for that matter, either. One of the things I like is that we all tap into different parts of these characters because of our own personal experiences, and I like seeing things through your eyes that I didn't see before on my own.

I've said before that one of the things that touches me about these guys is that each in his own way puts the other before himself. They give in the ways that they are able, and think will do the most good. The thing that always gets me about Jack is that it's so instinctive. When Ennis comes into camp after the incident with the bear, Jack is bitching up a storm about his missed dinner. As soon as he sees that Ennis is hurt, he flips to nurturing mode and goes to help tend his wound. When they're tussling at the end of the summer and Jack accidentally bloodies Ennis's nose, he immediately tries to help staunch the blood, shushing him and telling him he's ok, almost like you would with a child. After the 'sweet life' speech, when Ennis has completely knocked Jack's dream on its tail (not finding fault here - he was paralyzed by the lessons of his youth), even in his own heartache, he recognizes the impact of all of this on Ennis and moves again to comfort him, with a hand on his cheek and stroking his hair. And in the final confrontation, when he has just bared his soul and expressed all of his heartache and disappointed dreams from the last 20 years, even after Ennis initially tries to blame Jack for all of their problems, as soon as he breaks down, you can see the shift on Jack's face, as all of that hurt and resentment fall away, and he instinctively moves, once again, to comfort Ennis. And even when Ennis tries to push him away, Jack realizes somehow that this time it's right to push back and Ennis grabs onto him like a lifeline, even while saying "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack" (which has so many interpretations in itself). It's not just that he chooses to nurture Ennis, it's like he just can't help himself.

And I guess this is why I get perplexed when people describe him as being calculating somehow. I really feel that these are two men (who were barely more than boys when they met) with very little education or exposure to the larger world (at least in the early years), who were simply drawn to each other, clung to each other, and did the best they could to be together, in spite of all the obstacles in their way. Neither one was calculating or manipulative. They just followed their instincts and their hearts, which always seemed to lead them back to each other.

All of which make me inclined to agree with you, lancecowboy, when you say:

"The truth is, I think even Jack would have preferred to have loved Ennis, and died early, than to not have loved Ennis, and lived a life time of empty dreams."

Yep, me too.



See, I told you I can get a bit chatty.

[lancecowboy]

Hi Lance, I see you online

You're right this forum's got...kind of synergy effect: the whole is greater than the sum of the parts 

I think Ennis and Jack were lucky people, honestly. Despite Jack's death being so young (.. :\'(), leaving Ennis in loneliness, despite they didn't live a life together, despite their meetings were few and short...Most people never experience what they did, a true spirit connection, soul to soul communication. Despite all the fears doubts and hesitation from both parts, deep inside, they knew each other, understood completely each other, that's so hard to find! It's a true miracle of destiny: that special connection makes the 2 souls reach higher levels, and it happens only to a few privileged ones... :\'(

Hi, ayashae, please feel free to PM me if you want to chat when I am online. I've set my preferences to pop up a new window when I have messages. We can also become buddies, then the PM will be even more noticeable, I think. Once I start writing a post, I can get lost for hours. That's why I am trying to manage my online time as well. Let me know if you want me on your buddy list.

I think Ennis, after Jack's death, is not as lonely as he was before he met Jack. Ennis at the end of the movie has not only the memories of twenty years with Jack, but also those shirts that he will treasure for the rest of his life. In truth, Jack will be with Ennis in spirit. And I swear, Ennis will find a way to have his own ashes mixed with Jack's on Brokeback Mountain. They will be together for eternity. You are right on when you say that they are lucky. It IS better to have loved and lost, then to never have loved at all. The memories of that love will sustain Ennis until the end. As far as I am concerned, Jack is Ennis' best friend, only love, and soul mate. Nothing else that he is, or does matters in the face of that. Having read the short story and the screen play, I can see why my initial impression from the movie is totally off base. I have never been very good as a judge of character. That's why I've been loving the wrong people ever since that first time. I can also see a bit of myself in Jack when he goes to Mexico, or Randall. Loneliness can make even smart people do the stupidest things. I guess I see all the bad things I don't like about myself in Jack, and not the good things in him that I should value more in myself. This movie resonates with me on so many level, I can begin to describe all of it.

[lancecowboy]

Wow, What a great thread this has turned out to be. 

I've kind of been lurking in the shadows, because I didn't want to hog all the screentime (as you know, I can get a bit chatty ). I'm loving all of these opinions and insights you've all been sharing.

LJN, jackster, tpe, aintfoolin, mpj, Tony, lamusica, lc, ayashae, and manhattangirl, I just have to say it's been wonderful to read you. And I don't think there's any one right way to see Jack, or Ennis for that matter, either. One of the things I like is that we all tap into different parts of these characters because of our own personal experiences, and I like seeing things through your eyes that I didn't see before on my own.

I've said before that one of the things that touches me about these guys is that each in his own way puts the other before himself. They give in the ways that they are able, and think will do the most good. The thing that always gets me about Jack is that it's so instinctive. When Ennis comes into camp after the incident with the bear, Jack is bitching up a storm about his missed dinner. As soon as he sees that Ennis is hurt, he flips to nurturing mode and goes to help tend his wound. When they're tussling at the end of the summer and Jack accidentally bloodies Ennis's nose, he immediately tries to help staunch the blood, shushing him and telling him he's ok, almost like you would with a child. After the 'sweet life' speech, when Ennis has completely knocked Jack's dream on its tail (not finding fault here - he was paralyzed by the lessons of his youth), even in his own heartache, he recognizes the impact of all of this on Ennis and moves again to comfort him, with a hand on his cheek and stroking his hair. And in the final confrontation, when he has just bared his soul and expressed all of his heartache and disappointed dreams from the last 20 years, even after Ennis initially tries to blame Jack for all of their problems, as soon as he breaks down, you can see the shift on Jack's face, as all of that hurt and resentment fall away, and he instinctively moves, once again, to comfort Ennis. And even when Ennis tries to push him away, Jack realizes somehow that this time it's right to push back and Ennis grabs onto him like a lifeline, even while saying "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack" (which has so many interpretations in itself). It's not just that he chooses to nurture Ennis, it's like he just can't help himself.

And I guess this is why I get perplexed when people describe him as being calculating somehow. I really feel that these are two men (who were barely more than boys when they met) with very little education or exposure to the larger world (at least in the early years), who were simply drawn to each other, clung to each other, and did the best they could to be together, in spite of all the obstacles in their way. Neither one was calculating or manipulative. They just followed their instincts and their hearts, which always seemed to lead them back to each other.

All of which make me inclined to agree with you, lancecowboy, when you say:

"The truth is, I think even Jack would have preferred to have loved Ennis, and died early, than to not have loved Ennis, and lived a life time of empty dreams."

Yep, me too.

See, I told you I can get a bit chatty.

Well, FlwrChild, I do admit I have been a screen hog, was that the term? And I am glad to be away for a while. I think I will also stop posting such long responses as well. My initial reaction to the movie is coming to an end, and PBS is under control. My own reaction to Jack is very illuminating to me. I had not been conscious of my over-reaction to calculating or worse manipulative people. I am learning about myself in ways, from this movie and through this forum, that is totally unexpected and surprising.

To get back on topic, I am sure I agree with you about Jack's instinctively protecting Ennis. I see that in many instances, like the ones you mentioned, but I also don't see that in his communication with Ennis when Ennis needed it the most, like the river side scene. As in the short story, these guys, soul mates, can talk about anything but their feelings. Jack has been protective of Ennis in every way, and perhaps even emotionally by not forcing the commitment issue with him. But, in the long run, not dealing with the most important conversation they have going, IMO, is what led to the tragedy at the end. Jack is great, but not perfect. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that. I don't know why I expected him to be perfect. Yet, I think, in someway, I see Ennis as perfect, even with all his faults, if that makes sense. I guess that's why I know I love Ennis more. In fact, I don't think I love Jack at all, even though he is great and adorable. Anyway, I am beginning to ramble, and being a screen hog...

G'nite, all.

[FlwrChild]

"Well, FlwrChild, I do admit I have been a screen hog, was that the term?"

  Kindred spirits. Me too.

I like what you say about Jack not being perfect (and I think it's interesting that you think Ennis is, in spite of his faults, as you said, because you love him). I think we all romanticize them to a certain extent. But I think what I like about them is the fact that they aren't perfect. They're very simple, straightforward guys. No fancy airs, no sophisticated speech or dress. In this environment of stark, harsh conditions, they were drawn together by the simplest thing of all - just love. Even if neither one quite knew how to define it or what to do with it. And that's what I find endearing about Jack. With no other compass or reference to guide him, he stuck with Ennis all those years for no other reason than he loved him, and that was why he was willing to play by the rules set forth, which he saw as being controlled by Ennis. Just as Ennis stuck with Jack all those years for the same reason, even if he couldn't face that knowledge, and was willing to play by the rules set forth, which he saw as being controlled by the world they lived in. Jack thought Ennis had the power to change things, Ennis thought neither of them did. The fact that Ennis was wrong didn't make him any less paralyzed. So I am impressed, too, that he was able to give as much as he was (this is why I love them both - they gave what they had, all of it, because it was all they had to give).

As to that scene by the river and its impact on their eventual fate, I'll have to agree to disagree. While I think it speaks volumes about their general tendancy to misunderstand each other, I don't know that it had any more bearing on their fate than any other conversation over the years. I see them following their general pattern of looking at the other through the veil of their own perceptions about how he felt, or what he was experiencing in his life away from their meetings. When Jack is bitching about Lureen and the adding machine, Ennis says it sounds like 'high class entertainment' to him, noticing only the fact that Jack and Lureen are well to do enough to bitch about paying taxes. He completely misses the tone in Jack's voice and expression on his face, not to mention the meaning, when Jack says "For what it's worth." Similarly, Jack misses the signs when Ennis asks about a sense of people knowing, and suggests he move some where else "maybe Texas." I think the fact that they were able to stay together and still bond so strongly year after year after year despite having such poor communication skills when it came to addressing their feelings for each other, points all over again to the strength of their love.

Oops, I got going and forgot where I started. Oh yes, Jack and Ennis. Not perfect, not at all similar on the outside, perfectly matched on the inside, two flawed people who filled the missing spaces in each other, two guys, fictional or not, that I just can't stop loving.

[ayasha]

Hi, ayashae, please feel free to PM me if you want to chat when I am online. I've set my preferences to pop up a new window when I have messages. We can also become buddies, then the PM will be even more noticeable, I think. Once I start writing a post, I can get lost for hours. That's why I am trying to manage my online time as well. Let me know if you want me on your buddy list.
 

You bet

I think Ennis, after Jack's death, is not as lonely as he was before he met Jack. Ennis at the end of the movie has not only the memories of twenty years with Jack, but also those shirts that he will treasure for the rest of his life. In truth, Jack will be with Ennis in spirit. And I swear, Ennis will find a way to have his own ashes mixed with Jack's on Brokeback Mountain. They will be together for eternity.

You’re completely right.  Eternity used to be only a concept for me, empty of an actual meaning, at least regarding spirit…only now I’m starting to understand. My mind begins to comprehend the true infinite nature of our souls,  but my heart is slower to understand…to believe.

That’s why my words sometimes betray me, but actually I know Jack’s and Ennis’s souls will be always together, they had always been before that day, when they met at Aguirre’s…then  they only recognised each other in this our little realm of human existence.

I guess I see all the bad things I don't like about myself in Jack, and not the good things in him that I should value more in myself. This movie resonates with me on so many level, I can begin to describe all of it.

I fully understand you and share your feelings…and I think it’s important for us being aware of this. It’s the 1st step to accept that side of us we don’t like and try to hide, to delete…but it’s impossible, since it’s as real as the rest. Ennis and Jack are the yin and yang, both of them exists inside of us in different levels and we are not true to ourselves if we don’t accept them both ‘there’s no Ennis without Jack, there’s no Jack without Ennis’. For myself those are only words, cos I haven’t yet been able to, but just being aware of it gives me a sense of inner peace I don’t want to lose

[ayasha]

There was one moment, for me that I was really proud of Jack, and that's when he stood up to LD at Thanksgiving.   It was like Jack finally came into his own, late but it happened.  When he stood up and carved the turkey, in his own home he established his place as head of that houshold.    I wonder did this give Jack the courage to confront Ennis, to claim his place in this relationship. 

I didn't catch that detail before manhattangirl but now that you mention it, it really makes sense to me. That scene could be a clue for us to know there's been a change in Jack... for pointing!

[ayasha]

What a fasinating thread you have going here.  Keep up the good work. 

Wow, What a great thread this has turned out to be. 
(...)
LJN, jackster, tpe, aintfoolin, mpj, Tony, lamusica, lc, ayashae, and manhattangirl, I just have to say it's been wonderful to read you.

Thanks so much BBBoy and FlwrChild 

 

(...) I really feel that these are two men (who were barely more than boys when they met) with very little education or exposure to the larger world (at least in the early years), who were simply drawn to each other, clung to each other, and did the best they could to be together, in spite of all the obstacles in their way. Neither one was calculating or manipulative. They just followed their instincts and their hearts, which always seemed to lead them back to each other.

I totally agree with your statement. I believe their love and understanding goes much further than words would allow them. Verbal language is just a code, a complex tool we use for communication, but it’s very limited if we compare it with the complexity of life. As regards feelings, words mostly limitate us, help us to lie, and causes many misunderstandings, that is, when we pay too much attention to words we might not paying attention to our ‘intuition’ or ‘soul to soul communication’ (or whatever you wanna call it). Actually, the ‘few’ words Ennis and Jack exchanged, perhaps caused them more confusion…without words, they knew each other, they were one.

[lancecowboy]

"Well, FlwrChild, I do admit I have been a screen hog, was that the term?"

  Kindred spirits. Me too.

yep!  it's nice to be accepted, delicious faults and all.

I like what you say about Jack not being perfect (and I think it's interesting that you think Ennis is, in spite of his faults, as you said, because you love him). I think we all romanticize them to a certain extent. But I think what I like about them is the fact that they aren't perfect. They're very simple, straightforward guys. No fancy airs, no sophisticated speech or dress. In this environment of stark, harsh conditions, they were drawn together by the simplest thing of all - just love. Even if neither one quite knew how to define it or what to do with it. And that's what I find endearing about Jack. With no other compass or reference to guide him, he stuck with Ennis all those years for no other reason than he loved him, and that was why he was willing to play by the rules set forth, which he saw as being controlled by Ennis. Just as Ennis stuck with Jack all those years for the same reason, even if he couldn't face that knowledge, and was willing to play by the rules set forth, which he saw as being controlled by the world they lived in. Jack thought Ennis had the power to change things, Ennis thought neither of them did. The fact that Ennis was wrong didn't make him any less paralyzed. So I am impressed, too, that he was able to give as much as he was (this is why I love them both - they gave what they had, all of it, because it was all they had to give).

I sometimes keep forgetting that, as it says in the ss, these cowboys are high school dropouts growing up in poor rural farms. I guess I see them differently, as you said, romanticized. So once in a while, a reality-check surprises me. But not matter what, your last sentence above, it is,  above all else, the guiding light in the movie, and my love for them both - Jack a little more each day, and Ennis...always.

As to that scene by the river and its impact on their eventual fate, I'll have to agree to disagree. While I think it speaks volumes about their general tendancy to misunderstand each other, I don't know that it had any more bearing on their fate than any other conversation over the years. I see them following their general pattern of looking at the other through the veil of their own perceptions about how he felt, or what he was experiencing in his life away from their meetings. When Jack is bitching about Lureen and the adding machine, Ennis says it sounds like 'high class entertainment' to him, noticing only the fact that Jack and Lureen are well to do enough to bitch about paying taxes. He completely misses the tone in Jack's voice and expression on his face, not to mention the meaning, when Jack says "For what it's worth." Similarly, Jack misses the signs when Ennis asks about a sense of people knowing, and suggests he move some where else "maybe Texas." I think the fact that they were able to stay together and still bond so strongly year after year after year despite having such poor communication skills when it came to addressing their feelings for each other, points all over again to the strength of their love.

I am glad we agree to disagree because in our disagreement, I learn that I saw only the half-empty glass in their socially enforced habit of non-communication, whereas you appreciate the half-full glass in the strength of their love, as you said, despite their poor communication. Thank you for that.

Oops, I got going and forgot where I started. Oh yes, Jack and Ennis. Not perfect, not at all similar on the outside, perfectly matched on the inside, two flawed people who filled the missing spaces in each other, two guys, fictional or not, that I just can't stop loving.

What!!! You mean to tell me Ennis and Jack are NOT real !!! 

  They seem real enough to me, and I am sure my love for them, the movie, this forum, is pretty darn real enough to keep me going through PBS, cold dark nights, and crazy days.

Thank you all for this.

[tpe]

Hey 
I'm not sure if I misunderstood you tpe or I was misunderstood    (english isn't my mother tongue, sometimes I can't read between the lines  )  When you said "although I don't think forms of manipulation are bad in and of themselves.  Most relationships use them in one form or another, as part of the overall "give and take" that make relationships truly binding" That's what I meant (I think): there's some level of 'manipulation' we all humans practice when we are in love, and it's not positive or negative, just something natural.

Are you sure English is not your mother tongue?  Because you said this better than I did.  Thanks.

[tpe]

There was one moment, for me that I was really proud of Jack, and that's when he stood up to LD at Thanksgiving.   It was like Jack finally came into his own, late but it happened.  When he stood up and carved the turkey, in his own home he established his place as head of that houshold.    I wonder did this give Jack the courage to confront Ennis, to claim his place in this relationship. 

For some reason, I thought of this as a foreshadowing of the last confrontation scene.  It is interesting to note that this Thanksgiving scene comes very soon after the nadir of Jack's dream -- where he is turned away by Ennis so soon after his divorce.  I think his back was up against the wall here, and after this, we see him begin to fight back...

[tpe]

"Well, FlwrChild, I do admit I have been a screen hog, was that the term?"

  Kindred spirits. Me too.

I like what you say about Jack not being perfect (and I think it's interesting that you think Ennis is, in spite of his faults, as you said, because you love him). I think we all romanticize them to a certain extent. But I think what I like about them is the fact that they aren't perfect. They're very simple, straightforward guys. No fancy airs, no sophisticated speech or dress. In this environment of stark, harsh conditions, they were drawn together by the simplest thing of all - just love. Even if neither one quite knew how to define it or what to do with it. And that's what I find endearing about Jack. With no other compass or reference to guide him, he stuck with Ennis all those years for no other reason than he loved him, and that was why he was willing to play by the rules set forth, which he saw as being controlled by Ennis. Just as Ennis stuck with Jack all those years for the same reason, even if he couldn't face that knowledge, and was willing to play by the rules set forth, which he saw as being controlled by the world they lived in. Jack thought Ennis had the power to change things, Ennis thought neither of them did. The fact that Ennis was wrong didn't make him any less paralyzed. So I am impressed, too, that he was able to give as much as he was (this is why I love them both - they gave what they had, all of it, because it was all they had to give).

As to that scene by the river and its impact on their eventual fate, I'll have to agree to disagree. While I think it speaks volumes about their general tendancy to misunderstand each other, I don't know that it had any more bearing on their fate than any other conversation over the years. I see them following their general pattern of looking at the other through the veil of their own perceptions about how he felt, or what he was experiencing in his life away from their meetings. When Jack is bitching about Lureen and the adding machine, Ennis says it sounds like 'high class entertainment' to him, noticing only the fact that Jack and Lureen are well to do enough to bitch about paying taxes. He completely misses the tone in Jack's voice and expression on his face, not to mention the meaning, when Jack says "For what it's worth." Similarly, Jack misses the signs when Ennis asks about a sense of people knowing, and suggests he move some where else "maybe Texas." I think the fact that they were able to stay together and still bond so strongly year after year after year despite having such poor communication skills when it came to addressing their feelings for each other, points all over again to the strength of their love.

Oops, I got going and forgot where I started. Oh yes, Jack and Ennis. Not perfect, not at all similar on the outside, perfectly matched on the inside, two flawed people who filled the missing spaces in each other, two guys, fictional or not, that I just can't stop loving.

AS I said in some earlier post, I would not have Jack any other way: it is because he is so like all of us in his imperfection that I love him so.

[ayasha]

Are you sure English is not your mother tongue?  Because you said this better than I did.  Thanks.

I'm taking your words as a compliment, honest  tpe

[tpe]

I'm taking your words as a compliment, honest  tpe

It is a compliment, and what I said is true.

[manhattangirl]

For some reason, I thought of this as a foreshadowing of the last confrontation scene.  It is interesting to note that this Thanksgiving scene comes very soon after the nadir of Jack's dream -- where he is turned away by Ennis so soon after his divorce.  I think his back was up against the wall here, and after this, we see him begin to fight back...

With the pain of Ennis's rejection, that slow fuse was lit, Jack wiped the tears away, and he went to Mexico. With the feeling of worthlessness, and full of despair, Jack hits bottom.   He became, for me anyway,  emerges emotionally harder. Remember the scene at the dance with Lureen.  When she commented about husband not alway wanting to dance with their wives.   He shot back,  he didn't think nothing about it, and ask LaShawn to dance.   Jack wasn't taking crap from anyone now.  And he wasn't taking it from Ennis.  He wanted answers to why Ennis was harder to see than the pope.

It's funny how this relationship affected Jack so deeply that we could see changes outwardly and inwardly in him.    Whereas Ennis hardly changes until Jack's death.

[lancecowboy]

With the pain of Ennis's rejection, that slow fuse was lit, Jack wiped the tears away, and he went to Mexico. With the feeling of worthlessness, and full of despair, Jack hits bottom.   He became, for me anyway,  emerges emotionally harder. Remember the scene at the dance with Lureen.  When she commented about husband not alway wanting to dance with their wives.   He shot back,  he didn't think nothing about it, and ask LaShawn to dance.   Jack wasn't taking crap from anyone now.  And he wasn't taking it from Ennis.  He wanted answers to why Ennis was harder to see than the pope.

It's funny how this relationship affected Jack so deeply that we could see changes outwardly and inwardly in him.    Whereas Ennis hardly changes until Jack's death.

I watched the movie again more closely after an earlier discussion about this scene. Does anyone else notice that Jack turned and walked away from Ennis while Ennis was still trying to continue the conversation? It must be the first and only time when Ennis wants to communicate while Jack did not. Perhaps it is also the beginning of their pattern of poor communication, when Jack feels rejected. In fact, I think Ennis would have asked him to join the girls, as he asked Cassie. But Jack expected one thing, and was disappointed when he did not get it. Perhaps he was also embarrassed and was afraid Ennis would think badly of him. Whatever the thinking in Jack's mind, Ennis, in my opinion, did not do enough to make Jack feel better, and led to Jack heading to Mexico. Ennis wasn't at fault, but he was also constraint by the presence of his girls.

I think Jack at the divorce scene, Ennis at the last meeting scene, and Ennis at the closet scene, were being transformed because the first two were heart-broken while the last one was healed.

[welshwitch]

And maybe Jack was at a point, as you sometimes are when emotionally involved, of being so psyched up for something big, ie a life with Ennis, that nothing else bears contemplation - at that moment he was incapable of being satisfied with anything less than a positive commitment from Ennis and would have been unable to conceal his feelings in front of others, specially the girls, who were not exactly his rivals for Jack's affections but were at least something Ennis was using as an excuse so that their very existence could have seemed to Jack one of the contributing factors to Ennis's intransigence.

[manhattangirl]

I watched the movie again more closely after an earlier discussion about this scene. Does anyone else notice that Jack turned and walked away from Ennis while Ennis was still trying to continue the conversation? It must be the first and only time when Ennis wants to communicate while Jack did not. Perhaps it is also the beginning of their pattern of poor communication, when Jack feels rejected. In fact, I think Ennis would have asked him to join the girls, as he asked Cassie.   But Jack expected one thing, and was disappointed when he did not get it. Perhaps he was also embarrassed and was afraid Ennis would think badly of him. Whatever the thinking in Jack's mind, Ennis, in my opinion, did not do enough to make Jack feel better, and led to Jack heading to Mexico. Ennis wasn't at fault, but he was also constraint by the presence of his girls.

I think Jack at the divorce scene, Ennis at the last meeting scene, and Ennis at the closet scene, were being transformed because the first two were heart-broken while the last one was healed.

You bring up a good point, (again as always), he didn't invite Jack to join him and the girls, but he bring Cassie with him when spending time with Alma, jr.  without thinking or having a clue that this was more disturbing to his daugther than sitting in the same "bar" with Jack.   Alma,Jr. sees Cassie as competition for her father's attention, I mean the girl did know her father wasn't the marrying kind.  On the same respect I think Ennis was hung up being so close to Jack even in public, that Ennis was afraid more of himself, and the control he might loose being so close to Jack, that Brokeback was the only place he could be with Jack without that fear of loosing self control.   The way Ennis looked, it was as if  he thought that there was a running banner saying: HEY WE'RE LOVERS

Because of Ennis inability for self control when it came to Jack,  it was just easier for him to for him to send him away, and keep Jack at a safe distance, but this caused  Jack great pain and misunderstanding.

Just my thoughts.

[tpe]

With the pain of Ennis's rejection, that slow fuse was lit, Jack wiped the tears away, and he went to Mexico. With the feeling of worthlessness, and full of despair, Jack hits bottom.   He became, for me anyway,  emerges emotionally harder. Remember the scene at the dance with Lureen.  When she commented about husband not alway wanting to dance with their wives.   He shot back,  he didn't think nothing about it, and ask LaShawn to dance.   Jack wasn't taking crap from anyone now.  And he wasn't taking it from Ennis.  He wanted answers to why Ennis was harder to see than the pope.

It's funny how this relationship affected Jack so deeply that we could see changes outwardly and inwardly in him.    Whereas Ennis hardly changes until Jack's death.

Jack could be so hard at times, especially to himself.  I do think the emotional hardening is akin to tempering a metal: one loses pliability, but one gains a cutting edge.

[tpe]

And maybe Jack was at a point, as you sometimes are when emotionally involved, of being so psyched up for something big, ie a life with Ennis, that nothing else bears contemplation - at that moment he was incapable of being satisfied with anything less than a positive commitment from Ennis and would have been unable to conceal his feelings in front of others, specially the girls, who were not exactly his rivals for Jack's affections but were at least something Ennis was using as an excuse so that their very existence could have seemed to Jack one of the contributing factors to Ennis's intransigence.

Jack's ambivalence to family in the face of his relationship with Ennis is something worth looking into a bit more.  It did appear that he was an attentive and (to a point) loving father, and even to the very last, he kept civility with Lureen.  And yet it was clear that through all those years, his heart lay elsewhere.

It seemed to me that he was willing to sacrifice family to be with Ennis -- something that Ennis was not ready for.  IMO, I think Ennis used family partly as an excuse to keep a distance from Jack.  IN some ways, Jack was perhaps more honest with himself, because I have no doubt about what Ennis really wanted for himself, and yet something inside him tried to deny himself that very thing.

[LuvJackNasty]

I watched the movie again more closely after an earlier discussion about this scene. Does anyone else notice that Jack turned and walked away from Ennis while Ennis was still trying to continue the conversation? It must be the first and only time when Ennis wants to communicate while Jack did not. Perhaps it is also the beginning of their pattern of poor communication, when Jack feels rejected. In fact, I think Ennis would have asked him to join the girls, as he asked Cassie. But Jack expected one thing, and was disappointed when he did not get it. Perhaps he was also embarrassed and was afraid Ennis would think badly of him. Whatever the thinking in Jack's mind, Ennis, in my opinion, did not do enough to make Jack feel better, and led to Jack heading to Mexico. Ennis wasn't at fault, but he was also constraint by the presence of his girls.

I think Jack at the divorce scene, Ennis at the last meeting scene, and Ennis at the closet scene, were being transformed because the first two were heart-broken while the last one was healed.

I don't think he was going to ask Jack to join him. I mean he did introduce Jack to the girls which was a huge step. But ennis's whole demeanor shifts when Jack sayd he had to ask about 10 people in Riverton where Ennis had moved to. And then there is the white truck in the distance. This is where, IMO, Jack started to see how paranoid/scared/nervous Ennis was And where he figured out that it wasn't Alma or the marriage that was keeping them apart.

[LuvJackNasty]

Jack's ambivalence to family in the face of his relationship with Ennis is something worth looking into a bit more.  It did appear that he was an attentive and (to a point) loving father, and even to the very last, he kept civility with Lureen.  And yet it was clear that through all those years, his heart lay elsewhere.

It seemed to me that he was willing to sacrifice family to be with Ennis -- something that Ennis was not ready for.  IMO, I think Ennis used family partly as an excuse to keep a distance from Jack.  IN some ways, Jack was perhaps more honest with himself, because I have no doubt about what Ennis really wanted for himself, and yet something inside him tried to deny himself that very thing.

That is the one thing that I don't like about Jack- that he was willing to leave his son. He did care as evidenced briefly in the SS and movie, so I don't think he was a bad father but as you said- his heart lay elsewhere. I agree though that Jack was honest with himself in that regard.

[ayasha]

That is the one thing that I don't like about Jack- that he was willing to leave his son. He did care as evidenced briefly in the SS and movie, so I don't think he was a bad father but as you said- his heart lay elsewhere. I agree though that Jack was honest with himself in that regard.

I thought the same when I saw the movie CSC...We can see Ennis as a good dad, who sincerely loves his daughters and shows concern and affection towards them despite his introspected personality. But I don't see it as clear as regards Jack and Bobby. I remember only one scene where Jack is 'teaching' Bobby to drive a truck, laughing and playing with him. Do you think Bobby is a 'secondary love' for Jack or is it only that the story doesn't focus in this relationship? Could it be that Jack actually never wanted to have children that's why he wasn't a devoted father?

Jack is such a warm loving person, and there are many scenes we can see him showing affection to Ennis, but not to his kid (except the scene I mentioned) I guess we can't see this point in the movie, since Jack and Bobby's relationship wasn't important for the main plot of the story

[FlwrChild]

Yes, clearly Ennis held the top spot in Jack's heart, though the movie did show some evidence of affection for Bobby on Jack's part.

In the ss, Ennis says he used to want boys, "but just got little girls." Jack says he didn't want either. It does say that he was concerned about his son and thought he had dyslexia, but didn't know what to do because Lureen controlled the money and didn't want to believe there was a problem. So there is some indication that he cared about Bobby, but not with the same level of committment he had toward Ennis, who he would have dropped everything for in a NY minute.