Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[lancecowboy]

No silly, of course not.  I see Jack in you, don't be upset with me.    But Jack had  something about him, that drew Randall to him,  a vulnerability?  In the same respect Jack sense a hint of danger, and was himself attracted to Randall.   Why was Jack so uncomfortable in the situation?

I think also this what contributed to Jack's restlessness with Ennis.   Jack's confession of how he missed Ennis, and the final confrontation, when Jack finally pushed the issue of their relationship.

Not saying outright what was going on with him, Jack was telling Ennis in a way, "it getting tough out there, and I'm trying to hold on to what we have."  But he's wondering what do we have?   

manhattangirl, I can NEVER be upset with you. I was just shocked to think I reminded you of Randall. And I don't understand the reference to Jack, either, though I am flattered. Someone else mentioned my being like Jack, but I really see myself closer to Ennis...anyway.

Yes, I share your view that Randall sensed the lonely vulnerability in Jack during the dance, and exploited it when Jack kept talking to him afterwards. I don't think Randall really liked Jack, except as an amusement to play him for kicks. It's why I really dislike the character. He was a predator. And Jack sensed this, and was for once, the prey himself. All his life, as others put it, Jack was put down and "pissed on" by other men, then this vet with university pedigree come calling, he knew he was vulnerable, and also saw Randall's insincerity. The who "you know" story about the cabin etc was so disingenuous that Jack the people-smart person must have saw through that. Yet, he allowed himself to be sucked into it because he was lonely and desperate.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

...I don't imagine Jack suffered much over the rodeo clown who spurned him, except for momentary embarrassment. I've heard people say that the boys in BBM were lucky that their love was mutual.  Maybe so, but there would have been no story and no movie if it hadn't been.  I would have forgotten the great love of my life a long time ago had it been like the dozens of cases where I liked someone more than they could like me.

Spoken with true wisdom.

[manhattangirl]

I was wondering if it was fear of being found out, as much as if one love the other, Jack had questions and so did Ennis.  The final confrontation was like an affirmation of love one for the other, as painful as it was.  But both still had the questions, the fear of each other was also for me a part of it.   
 

[lancecowboy]

I was wondering if it was fear of being found out, as much as if one love the other, Jack had questions and so did Ennis.  The final confrontation was like an affirmation of love one for the other, as painful as it was.  But both still had the questions, the fear of each other was also for me a part of it.   
 

For once I have to respectfully disagree with you, manhattangirl. The final confrontation was, to me, a repudiation of love...first it was Jack accusing Ennis not wanting to spend time, not making an effort to spend more time together. Then it was Ennis accusing Jack's unfaithfulness, confirmed by his own confession. And finally, when Jack said, "I did once." Ennis interpreted that as meaning, "I no longer" when in fact, Jack simply meant it as "I did once upon a time, but you rejected me." At that final misunderstanding, Ennis broke down and thought the world ended with Jack no longer loving him. He was no one, He was no where. And when Jack tried to comfort him, as he did their last day on brokeback mountain, speaking of parallel scenes, just after the bloody nose. The only difference here, is that Jack managed to hold on to Ennis, and Ennis was too broken up to throw a sucker punch at Jack. As someone mentioned, Ennis was surrendering to Jack. Unfortunately as often the case with these two, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Just Jack unilaterally taking action, as usual.

[babytammy7]

For once I have to respectfully disagree with you, manhattangirl. The final confrontation was, to me, a repudiation of love...first it was Jack accusing Ennis not wanting to spend time, not making an effort to spend more time together. Then it was Ennis accusing Jack's unfaithfulness, confirmed by his own confession. And finally, when Jack said, "I did once." Ennis interpreted that as meaning, "I no longer" when in fact, Jack simply meant it as "I did once upon a time, but you rejected me." At that final misunderstanding, Ennis broke down and thought the world ended with Jack no longer loving him. He was no one, He was no where. And when Jack tried to comfort him, as he did their last day on brokeback mountain, speaking of parallel scenes, just after the bloody nose. The only difference here, is that Jack managed to hold on to Ennis, and Ennis was too broken up to throw a sucker punch at Jack. As someone mentioned, Ennis was surrendering to Jack. Unfortunately as often the case with these two, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Just Jack unilaterally taking action, as usual.

  Huh, sorry Andrew....but I thought Jack with that affirmation was refering to Mexico. I mean, Ennis was rejecting Jack again, like in the divorce scene, and then Ennis asked Jack if he has a better idea, and Jack, for me, said "I did once" thinking about that time when he was so broken like now and decided to go to Mexico. And because of that Ennis in this very moment asked him about Mexico, 'cause he noticed the sarcastic tone in Jack's voice.

Well, I don't know...What a mess!!! 

[manhattangirl]

For once I have to respectfully disagree with you, manhattangirl. The final confrontation was, to me, a repudiation of love...first it was Jack accusing Ennis not wanting to spend time, not making an effort to spend more time together. Then it was Ennis accusing Jack's unfaithfulness, confirmed by his own confession. And finally, when Jack said, "I did once." Ennis interpreted that as meaning, "I no longer" when in fact, Jack simply meant it as "I did once upon a time, but you rejected me." At that final misunderstanding, Ennis broke down and thought the world ended with Jack no longer loving him. He was no one, He was no where. And when Jack tried to comfort him, as he did their last day on brokeback mountain, speaking of parallel scenes, just after the bloody nose. The only difference here, is that Jack managed to hold on to Ennis, and Ennis was too broken up to throw a sucker punch at Jack. As someone mentioned, Ennis was surrendering to Jack. Unfortunately as often the case with these two, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Just Jack unilaterally taking action, as usual.

Understand  this was a total affirmation  of their  love for each other.  Through all the pain and all the hurtful things said and heard.  It was the first time, each told the other what they felt, what they were going through.  Honesty, and being honest can be a painful thing.  Jack telling Ennis that he wasn't him, that the loneliness led him to seek others, Ennis telling Jack because of his need for him cost him, himself.     These two men sacrificed a lot for each other, and the love for one another at last understood, out in the open. 

You really never know what the other person may have given up for you, or did to hold on to what they have with you, in order to love and be with you.   At that moment in their lives Jack and Ennis let the other know.   And they still loved each other.

[aintfoolin]

Understand  this was a total affirmation  of their  love for each other.  Through all the pain and all the hurtful things said and heard.  It was the first time, each told the other what they felt, what they were going through.  Honesty, and being honest can be a painful thing.  Jack telling Ennis that he wasn't him, that the loneliness led him to seek others, Ennis telling Jack because of his need for him cost him, himself.     These two men sacrificed a lot for each other, and the love for one another at last understood, out in the open. 

You really never know what the other person may have given up for you, or did to hold on to what they have with you, in order to love and be with you.   At that moment in their lives Jack and Ennis let the other know.   And they still loved each other.

If I may add my 2 cents to this discussion, I feel they both saw each other slipping away so it was time to take some kind of action. Jack was'nt gonna let it rest this time. Theirs was a deep and passionate love. It is with this passion both fought to save it.

 Ennis already knew Jack was unfaithful with " the foreman's wife" and now here is the Mexico business, also confirmed by Jack himself. Ennis probably suspected there were others, which to him spelled a rejection of him for others.  He was no longer the one and only lover Jack had and this thought hurt and angered him ( even threatening Jack's life) if he found out about any more. Jack's unremorseful attitude about his infidelity to Ennis spoke of an entitlement to cheat (" hell yeah,  is that a f##*kin problem?) It's as if Jack is daring Ennis to say something about it after all the rejections he'd suffered.
 Ennis  spits in disgust at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, walks away as if to say "I'm done", but no,no,no, Jack is'nt done with him just yet. He goes on to explain it to Ennis with no pretense WHY he's done what he's done in a way that Ennis can  understand nor no  longer pretend to himself that what Jack's" better idea" he "did once" have and the rejection of that idea is the basis of his loosing faith in the relationship.

 He was not going to allow Ennis to walk away thinking that he had no role in his infidelities. Imo he was correct in doing so. He left Jack vulnerable in many ways. He was "nothin" and " nowhere", not because of anything Jack did wrong ,but I feel it was his love and need for Jack that caused Ennis to give up so much for Jack, but Jack was'nt twisting his arm or forcing him to do anything. Jack's actions thru the years implied a deep love for Ennis, and Ennis willingly reciprocated it, and imo if either one of them had a choice in rejecting it , it was complex, complicated, self-denying ,stubborn ol Ennis Del Mar....but he did'nt.  MO. Thanks.

[tpe]

If I may add my 2 cents to this discussion, I feel they both saw each other slipping away so it was time to take some kind of action. Jack was'nt gonna let it rest this time. Theirs was a deep and passionate love. It is with this passion both fought to save it.

 Ennis already knew Jack was unfaithful with " the foreman's wife" and now here is the Mexico business, also confirmed by Jack himself. Ennis probably suspected there were others, which to him spelled a rejection of him for others.  He was no longer the one and only lover Jack had and this thought hurt and angered him ( even threatening Jack's life) if he found out about any more. Jack's unremorseful attitude about his infidelity to Ennis spoke of an entitlement to cheat (" hell yeah,  is that a f##*kin problem?) It's as if Jack is daring Ennis to say something about it after all the rejections he'd suffered.
 Ennis  spits in disgust at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, walks away as if to say "I'm done", but no,no,no, Jack is'nt done with him just yet. He goes on to explain it to Ennis with no pretense WHY he's done what he's done in a way that Ennis can  understand nor no  longer pretend to himself that what Jack's" better idea" he "did once" have and the rejection of that idea is the basis of his loosing faith in the relationship.

 He was not going to allow Ennis to walk away thinking that he had no role in his infidelities. Imo he was correct in doing so. He left Jack vulnerable in many ways. He was "nothin" and " nowhere", not because of anything Jack did wrong ,but I feel it was his love and need for Jack that caused Ennis to give up so much for Jack, but Jack was'nt twisting his arm or forcing him to do anything. Jack's actions thru the years implied a deep love for Ennis, and Ennis willingly reciprocated it, and imo if either one of them had a choice in rejecting it , it was complex, complicated, self-denying ,stubborn ol Ennis Del Mar....but he did'nt.  MO. Thanks.

IMO, he did sort of push for the confrontation in the end, daring Ennis to face up to his fears.   I also think it was correct.  I would even go further to say that it was inevitable.  It was just a matter of time.  What surprised me more is that Jack took that long to reach this point.  Perhaps his infidelities were a kind of "dare", knowing that Ennis would be able to read between the lines.  But having pushed Ennis, we see that he did not the heart to insist at the very end.

[Tony]

     Please forgive-am having a PBS time, and always thought I never had that, except during the movie, each time I would see it.
Anyway, about love itself, the different types of love produce different troubles.  There's very little research in this area and I think Dr. Gray's
book was a huge step forward.  There's family love, friendship love, sexual/romantic love and idealized love (the ultimate, perhaps).  All of them
produce hurts, but it is the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so
absorbed in the other.  It's a love we claim we would want, but it is the most threatening of all.
   So, in lookng over this topic, and doing some thinking, I believe it was that last love that Ennis fought.  They had the friendship love, the
sexual/romantic love, and, yes, even the family love (Dr. Gray says sexual/romantic ends up, safely, in a family love, where the physical
attraction is less important, and that was something our guys had reached, by passing through the years and being middle-aged).  They did not
fear anything but the idealized love that is so very rare and requires a complete focus on the other, to the loss of one's safety.  And yet they
had that too.  They had it all, but both (not just Ennis) feared that last one, which does require a loss of life baggage and merging with the
beloved.   Sorry.  Real PBS hitting, even as am being analytical.
   It was Jack who said-"I'm not you, Ennis!", and then gave out his complaints.  But I really believe Ennis said it back-"I'm not you,Jack!".
and yet those are the last defiant challenges of two souls so in love they were near to merging, the helix complete, the idealistic love written
of through the ages.
  Heck--am kinda glad there were gay issues, and the ugly environment, because now it seems those challenges were part of the push, the
reptilian outside threat to them both, that gave them even more in common and ever more reason to love.  Two guys fighting off a cold world
and past that a homophobic (or just maybe just sexually cardboard world), would have all, the more,only each other.  They knew there was more.
   Sorry.  Too long. Real PBS and analyzing it doesn't help.         Tony.

[lancecowboy]

Understand  this was a total affirmation  of their  love for each other.  Through all the pain and all the hurtful things said and heard.  It was the first time, each told the other what they felt, what they were going through.  Honesty, and being honest can be a painful thing.  Jack telling Ennis that he wasn't him, that the loneliness led him to seek others, Ennis telling Jack because of his need for him cost him, himself.     These two men sacrificed a lot for each other, and the love for one another at last understood, out in the open. 

You really never know what the other person may have given up for you, or did to hold on to what they have with you, in order to love and be with you.   At that moment in their lives Jack and Ennis let the other know.   And they still loved each other.

I stand corrected, manhattangirl, gladly.   I knew you have a good reason to say what you did, and I just didn't understand it. Thank you for the explanation.

It is love even though it is not the romantic kind of love that we expect, as in the river side prayer to heaven scene, or the motel scenes. It is the kind of love that is action at its core. It is probably the first time the two tried to be so open, honest, and vulnerable.  If they'd only done it twenty years earlier on Brokeback Mountain. But they didn't know they love each other then.

Thanks again! 

[lancecowboy]

IMO, he did sort of push for the confrontation in the end, daring Ennis to face up to his fears.   I also think it was correct.  I would even go further to say that it was inevitable.  It was just a matter of time.  What surprised me more is that Jack took that long to reach this point.  Perhaps his infidelities were a kind of "dare", knowing that Ennis would be able to read between the lines.  But having pushed Ennis, we see that he did not the heart to insist at the very end.

Although Jack's confrontation with Ennis is necessary, and as you mention, long overdue, I also think it was short of taking full responsibility for his own actions. Instead of laying the blame on Ennis for his infidelity, Jack could have said, yes, I was wrong, but one more time, either we live the sweet life together, or we are done. This long distance crap is not working, was not working, and won't last. Let's go to my folks' place in Lightning Flat, spend a few days getting to know them, and see what we can do from there. No pressure, no expectations, just to see what happens. You will like my ma. She is real nice and friendly. She will like you, too. If you don't like any of it, no hard feelings. I will always love you, but not at a distance. I want to share Thanksgiving dinners, all the little joys and pains of living together...

I can go on and on with more sentimental stuff, but you get the idea.

When Jack did not pursue this, Ennis felt rightfully betrayed and left out in the cold. After all, Jack was the one who was unfaithful. If he was still interested in the sweet life, he should have said so. Ennis already said he wasn't seeing anyone else, already said his financial situation only allowed so much vacation time, he asked Jack once again if he had a better idea. If Jack did not feel so bitter, and offered the sweet life again, Ennis may reject it again, sure, but then Jack would be all the more in the right to say then we are done. Because all the options (almost all) would be exhausted.

Anyway, just my biased opinion, in defense of you know who...

[lancecowboy]

     Please forgive-am having a PBS time, and always thought I never had that, except during the movie, each time I would see it.
Anyway, about love itself, the different types of love produce different troubles.  There's very little research in this area and I think Dr. Gray's
book was a huge step forward.  There's family love, friendship love, sexual/romantic love and idealized love (the ultimate, perhaps).  All of them
produce hurts, but it is the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so
absorbed in the other.  It's a love we claim we would want, but it is the most threatening of all.
   So, in lookng over this topic, and doing some thinking, I believe it was that last love that Ennis fought.  They had the friendship love, the
sexual/romantic love, and, yes, even the family love (Dr. Gray says sexual/romantic ends up, safely, in a family love, where the physical
attraction is less important, and that was something our guys had reached, by passing through the years and being middle-aged).  They did not
fear anything but the idealized love that is so very rare and requires a complete focus on the other, to the loss of one's safety.  And yet they
had that too.  They had it all, but both (not just Ennis) feared that last one, which does require a loss of life baggage and merging with the
beloved.   Sorry.  Real PBS hitting, even as am being analytical.
   It was Jack who said-"I'm not you, Ennis!", and then gave out his complaints.  But I really believe Ennis said it back-"I'm not you,Jack!".
and yet those are the last defiant challenges of two souls so in love they were near to merging, the helix complete, the idealistic love written
of through the ages.
  Heck--am kinda glad there were gay issues, and the ugly environment, because now it seems those challenges were part of the push, the
reptilian outside threat to them both, that gave them even more in common and ever more reason to love.  Two guys fighting off a cold world
and past that a homophobic (or just maybe just sexually cardboard world), would have all, the more,only each other.  They knew there was more.
   Sorry.  Too long. Real PBS and analyzing it doesn't help.         Tony.

Hi, Tony, I am sorry to hear about your PBS. It happens to all of us. I hope you find the forum as much help as I do.

I am glad you brought up the different kinds of love, and the concept of the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so
absorbed in the other. I have read about this, too, in terms of Transactional Analysis, where the boundary between Self and Other becomes thinner and thinner, until as you said, the Other becomes the Self, sometimes resulting in a loss of identity, or a new identity.

I think this is what Ennis and Jack had. It is what they long to share, together. But the big elephant in the room kept them apart, and Ennis was more susceptible to it than Jack was.

I hope you sort out your PBS. I found that PBS is actually my heart trying to tell me something that my mind ignored. When I sort out the feelings, PBS usually sooths away.

 

[tpe]

Although Jack's confrontation with Ennis is necessary, and as you mention, long overdue, I also think it was short of taking full responsibility for his own actions. Instead of laying the blame on Ennis for his infidelity, Jack could have said, yes, I was wrong, but one more time, either we live the sweet life together, or we are done. This long distance crap is not working, was not working, and won't last. Let's go to my folks' place in Lightning Flat, spend a few days getting to know them, and see what we can do from there. No pressure, no expectations, just to see what happens. You will like my ma. She is real nice and friendly. She will like you, too. If you don't like any of it, no hard feelings. I will always love you, but not at a distance. I want to share Thanksgiving dinners, all the little joys and pains of living together...

I can go on and on with more sentimental stuff, but you get the idea.

When Jack did not pursue this, Ennis felt rightfully betrayed and left out in the cold. After all, Jack was the one who was unfaithful. If he was still interested in the sweet life, he should have said so. Ennis already said he wasn't seeing anyone else, already said his financial situation only allowed so much vacation time, he asked Jack once again if he had a better idea. If Jack did not feel so bitter, and offered the sweet life again, Ennis may reject it again, sure, but then Jack would be all the more in the right to say then we are done. Because all the options (almost all) would be exhausted.

Anyway, just my biased opinion, in defense of you know who...

Not sentimental at all, and it is true that Jack's lack of faithfulness was something he pretty much admitted to, when he said "I'm not like you."    It did fall short.  But perhaps he did this part intentionally, to push Ennis to the brink.  Should I call it a "dare"?   A kind of baiting?  I don't know if this is too extreme.  But what I feel is that perhaps he wanted it to throw Ennis off-balance, to put Ennis in a position of vulnerability -- as an ignored lover would try to make the other jealous.  Perhaps it is a reaction stemming from Jack's own sense of vulnerability -- and guilt, I might add.

[FlwrChild]

Wow. I've been away from this thread for a while, because I know that coming here means taking time and a lot of thought to read through the posts, and I've been so scattered lately, with only a few minutes to spare at a time. But like Jack and Ennis, I couldn't stay away.

This discussion has been so interesting and I'm not really sure where to start, so I'll just jump in and hope I don't get too jumbled. As to the fight scene when they're coming down the mountain at the end of the summer, great comments by everyone, and I'd have to say I agree with them all, because there are so many layers to what each of them is feeling there and so many interpretations of that. So yeah, Tony, you're right - we probably can't come to an absolute consensus. Which is actually what I love about this whole story, both the original SS and the movie. It's so open to interpretation and can mean so many things to so many people. And the meanings are so colored for all of us by our own personal experiences, that we almost have to see it in different ways. I love all of the insights that I wouldn't otherwise see.

I also agree with the idea that the final confrontation was, in many ways, an affirmation of love. After 20 years, they finally laid out some basic truths for each other, exposed vulnerabilities that they weren't usually willing to reveal. And I think the fact that even as they did so, they still couldn't use direct words or confessions of their feelings, reflects the framework of their entire relationship together. Each was so locked into his own fears about how far to tread in shining a light on what was really inside, and how much of his own soul to bare, that this conversation and their mutual breakdowns, was the best they could do to show one another how they felt. "We could've had a good life, but you didn't want it" (in the ss, he says 'you woudn't do it' - I think 'you didn't want it' is even more heartbreaking), "You have no idea how bad it gets", "I wish I knew how to quit you", "I'm nothin', I'm nowhere", "I just can't stand it anymore". All of these phrases spoke volumes, even if they couldn't say "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it....because I love you and I just want to be with you" or "I'm nothin', I'm nowhere because I love you, but I can't reconcile that with what I've been taught to resist and what I've been taught to fear, thereby leaving me forever torn between what I want and what I think I have to stand, not fitting anywhere."

I think that idea of "the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so absorbed in the other" really fits in here, too. They've both succombed to that, becoming so entwined over the course of the years, that I'm not sure either would have been capable of living without the other, and I think they both knew at least that much about themselves. Jack felt bound by Ennis's "short leash" and wished he knew how to quit him, but knew full well that he didn't. I think Ennis says "Why don't you just leave me be?!" because he knows that he could never take that step and sever their tie himself.

I once told someone that no matter how you feel about yourself or what your level of self esteem is, you make yourself vulnerable to what another person thinks of you, and feels for you, when you choose to love them (and I use the word "choose" loosely here, as most of us so rarely have a choice when we fall in love). You are giving them a certain amount of power over you, power to impact you in ways that no one else can. I think both of them felt that vulnerability (and I'm not sure they realized the other felt it too until the final confrontation). Still, all of the external forces that had shaped their relationship to this point were still in place, and I think that is why they were left with "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

As to the infidelity issue, I never think that infidelity is justified, but I think sometimes it can be understood. For Jack, imo, he would have been happy to be only with Ennis for the rest of their lives. That was the whole "sweet life" proposal back in '67. I do think that he was letting Ennis know what role he played in Jack's infidelities by setting up the conditions under which Jack felt the need to do that. I don't think that Ennis cared about the idea of Jack being with other women, any more than he would have supposed Jack cared about him doing so. But for Jack to have been with other men meant two things. First, it meant that Jack was interested in men, not just Ennis, and Ennis didn't want to explore the possibility that either of them might be 'queer'. The "boys like you" line was very telling here. Second, I think that to Ennis, Jack being with other men felt like an infidelity, a betrayal, in a way that being with a woman never would. And I have to disagree about Jack's lack of taking responsibility for his infidelities. I'm not sure he's blaming it on Ennis, necessarily, but explaining some of the impetus for doing what he did. I really don't think that asking Ennis to come to Lightning Flat would have solved anything, because I don't think that Ennis saw himself as controlling anything, but merely doing as much as he could do within the boundaries that he was given. Nothing had happened to change that during their fight, because it was always an external force (to his mind - as he didn't realize that a lot of those barriers were within him, though admittedly we can see how they got there) that kept Ennis from being able to change anything for them. I think it was Tony who said we recognize that they're not perfect, but we still love them. So true. I love them both, maybe even because they aren't perfect, just two simple guys doing the best they can with what life has thrown at them, clinging desperately to each other, no matter how much their hearts might be breaking. There's that darn idealized love again.

I also think the line "I did once" was a reference to Jack's 'sweet life' proposal as well. To me, what he's saying is not "I did once" 'but I don't feel that way anymore'. I see it more as "I did once" 'but you wouldn't do it, so I don't have any more suggestions because you wouldn't take me up on them anyway.' The "everything is built on that" line, to me, is Jack's way of saying 'you won't allow me to move this any further, and I can't move it without you, so we're stuck in this limbo. I wish I knew how to quit you, but I don't.' Which also goes back to the infidelity thing - 'that's what I'm doing to be able to stand the limbo.'

I guess in the end, there really were an awful lot of different fears ruling each of them. That they stayed together for all of those years, to me, represents a bravery on the part of both of them and a testament to the depth of their love for each other.     

Sorry for the Lashawn. I told you I'd need a lot of time. Now you know why it took me so long to get back here.

[tpe]

FlwrChild: wow.

Some of my favorites:

I also agree with the idea that the final confrontation was, in many ways, an affirmation of love.

I think that idea of "the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so absorbed in the other" really fits in here, too...  I think Ennis says "Why don't you just leave me be?!" because he knows that he could never take that step and sever their tie himself.

And lastly.

I also think the line "I did once" was a reference to Jack's 'sweet life' proposal as well. To me, what he's saying is not "I did once" 'but I don't feel that way anymore'... The "everything is built on that" line, to me, is Jack's way of saying 'you won't allow me to move this any further, and I can't move it without you, so we're stuck in this limbo...

A lot of wonderful thoughts here.

[FlwrChild]

Thanks Thomas.

There is so much to look at in this story. Amazingly, their situation is both extremely simple and extremely complicated, don't you think?

[tpe]

Thanks Thomas.

There is so much to look at in this story. Amazingly, their situation is both extremely simple and extremely complicated, don't you think?

Yes, on a certain level, the story and the "fear" of love is simple and straightforward, but there is so much layering of meaning.    There is no best way to look at all this.  The different meanings may be special/unique to us individually.  It's because the story and the film speak to each of us in a unique, very personal voice.

[FlwrChild]

Exactly.

[Tony]

    FlwrChild, one of your quotes is, I think, one that we haven't done much with.  In fact, I'd blanked it out. "Why don't you just let me be?"
It can't mean that Ennis was blaming the whole relationship on Jack, as he encouraged and planned for their meetings.  My gut instinct tells me
none of this was about sex, but about Ennis loneliness and life as a loner.  I really believe he'd had subtle signals all his life he was of little
value and being dumped by his relatives, into the world, was not sudden, but part of always being discardable.  So he learned to survive by
keeping to himself.  And along comes Jack, a direct threat to that way of life.  Please consider, the marriage to Alma did not threaten-he was
able to keep to himself and work long hours and so-still be alone.  Married, but safely alone.
  And Jack was trying  so hard, so very hard, to bring him into real life. "Why don't you just let me be?", together with his self-description
as a nothing, a nobody, means, for me at least, sex wasn't the problem, even the environment,...the problem was Ennis felt only safe-alone,
and there was Jack offering not sexuality, but a different outlook on life, one very fearful to someone who needed never to be discarded again.
Fear of Love?  Maybe also, Fear of Life.  Jack was Life-full of risk, joy, adventure, hope, and...danger.  The quote is central, I think, although
it can be read so many other ways.  Thanks for not forgetting it.

[FlwrChild]

Tony, I think you're right. There are so many different things we could take from that plea. Which is immediately followed by "It's cause a you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothin'. I'm nowhere."

-It's cause a you that I'm involved with a man. I never would've done that of my own accord.

-It's cause a you that I'm torn between what I want and what I think I'm allowed to have.

-It's cause a you that I can't have a life, because part of me is always with you.

-It's cause a you that I'm stuck where I am in life, because I quit all those jobs to be with you.

-It's cause a you that I'm vulnerable, which scares the hell out of me.

He could have meant all of those things or none of them. Ennis's life was definitely shaped by fear in many ways. For someone who undoubdtedly appeared to be so basic, so straightforward and uncomplicated to the outside world, I think he's the epitome of the saying "still waters run deep."

[babytammy7]

 Nothing had happened to change that during their fight, because it was always an external force (to his mind - as he didn't realize that a lot of those barriers were within him, though admittedly we can see how they got there) that kept Ennis from being able to change anything for them. I think it was Tony who said we recognize that they're not perfect, but we still love them. So true. I love them both, maybe even because they aren't perfect, just two simple guys doing the best they can with what life has thrown at them, clinging desperately to each other, no matter how much their hearts might be breaking. There's that darn idealized love again.

I also think the line "I did once" was a reference to Jack's 'sweet life' proposal as well. To me, what he's saying is not "I did once" 'but I don't feel that way anymore'. I see it more as "I did once" 'but you wouldn't do it, so I don't have any more suggestions because you wouldn't take me up on them anyway.' The "everything is built on that" line, to me, is Jack's way of saying 'you won't allow me to move this any further, and I can't move it without you, so we're stuck in this limbo. I wish I knew how to quit you, but I don't.' Which also goes back to the infidelity thing - 'that's what I'm doing to be able to stand the limbo.'

I guess in the end, there really were an awful lot of different fears ruling each of them. That they stayed together for all of those years, to me, represents a bravery on the part of both of them and a testament to the depth of their love for each other.     

Wow Barb!!! I'm stunned!!! Amazing post, sweetie!!! I agree 100%. Very well said. Thank so much for this!!! 

[lancecowboy]

Not sentimental at all, and it is true that Jack's lack of faithfulness was something he pretty much admitted to, when he said "I'm not like you."    It did fall short.  But perhaps he did this part intentionally, to push Ennis to the brink.  Should I call it a "dare"?   A kind of baiting?  I don't know if this is too extreme.  But what I feel is that perhaps he wanted it to throw Ennis off-balance, to put Ennis in a position of vulnerability -- as an ignored lover would try to make the other jealous.  Perhaps it is a reaction stemming from Jack's own sense of vulnerability -- and guilt, I might add.

Love is patient love is kind...

True love would never intentionally hurt the other person by making them feel unloved, making them feel jealous, and true love would not be suffocatingly possessive, and most of all, I think true love as Jack and Ennis have, would not push nor dare the other person into a position of vulnerability...just my own humble opinion.

I agree with you that Jack's own sense of guilt and vulnerability might have influenced his behavior that day. Whatever the reason, nothing begun, nothing ended, nothing resolved.

The inability to communicate emotionally, though understandable for cowboys of their times and circumstance, made their relationship all the more difficult to sustain over time.

[tpe]

 Fear of Love?  Maybe also, Fear of Life.

I went into the woods because I wanted to live deliberately. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life... to put to rout all that was not life; and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.  -- Thoreau.

 

[tpe]

Love is patient love is kind...

True love would never intentionally hurt the other person by making them feel unloved, making them feel jealous, and true love would not be suffocatingly possessive, and most of all, I think true love as Jack and Ennis have, would not push nor dare the other person into a position of vulnerability...just my own humble opinion.

I agree with you that Jack's own sense of guilt and vulnerability might have influenced his behavior that day. Whatever the reason, nothing begun, nothing ended, nothing resolved.

The inability to communicate emotionally, though understandable for cowboys of their times and circumstance, made their relationship all the more difficult to sustain over time.

There was nothing resolved because there was that fear of what could go wrong, of what could be the response of one to the other.  As I had mentioned elsewhere, I thought Jack's "decision" to plan moving in with the Texas ranch neighbor was perhaps a way to rouse Ennis into action -- even if it meant hurting him some more.  True, it could have gone either way, but I think we can understand Jack's infidelities as a way of getting a reaction from Ennis -- perhaps making him realize that things will not be as is forever.

[ayasha]

Guys, I really love this thread and all your posts, it gets more and more interesting, just can say  . I can't post as much as I'd like to, but I read you everyday, and I'm pleased.

Today I wanted to add my own view about this topic, and I'm getting a bit personal (which I haven't done here so far...) so I'll try to keep it as brief as I can. Annie Prouxl herself said "It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts"  When I watched the scene of the fight in the mountain I felt very moved since I noticed that I could recognise and understand their behaviours and their motivations...

When I was around 20 years old, I started to go out with a new group of friends. For some reason, I wasn't having a good time, and was sad, angry and bitter, so I wasn't the nicest girl...and often quite stroppy  . One day, I began to notice one of the guys in the group was interested in me. I saw some signals but I couldn't believe, because of what I said before...I felt ugly, stupid, stroppy and worse, how could he be interested in me?

Sometimes, when he tried to approach I tried to be nice, or at least not an idiot, I was kind of thankful to him for being so kind even if I didn't deserve it. But some other times I was furious...If I was being so unpleasant, why the hell was he still trying to be good to me?? Of course I never punched him or fight physically...but I used to get really angry and felt like screaming: What do you want from me you idiot!?!?  Never did that anyway...I've got a strong self-control. But I must admit there were many situations in which he was trying to show kindness and affection, and my reaction was kind of agressive. I wondered myself one thousand times why he was interested in me and I used to have the bitterest thoughts: He's in need of a girlfriend, he doesn't know me actually, as soon as he notices the way I am he'll be disappointed etc...FlwrChild spoke about self esteem, I totally agree. When you hate yourself you can't understand others loving you, so you try to keep them at distance. Accepting that love is a threat to all your mind patterns, meaning to become a different person...That is a harder thing to do than stay comfortable in your cocoon in isolation. There are fear of love, and fear of life as Tony said.

That was the way it started, and it lasted around 5 years more or less. With time, I had no more rough impulses towards him, but kindness and deep affection, even if I was always confused and wondering what was going on in his head...or heart. We never had a romantic relationship since I always thought sincerely, he deserved to be corresponded, and I wasn't able to be as good as he was to me. I didn't want to give him a chance, just to try, and then leave him and hurt him much more than he could hurt me, I always thought it wasn't fair for him. During those 5 years, he got a couple of girlfriends, never too serious, and in the meantime, I knew he still had a soft spot for me. We did never speak openly about it...but I knew his attitudes, his looks...and a gossip friend of him who I always tried to avoid, cause he spoke a bit too much about our common friend. Maybe I was just silly, I don't know yet.

Now, I can only think he loved me, with my lights and darks. I can't say that it was my BbM...I can't compare, but Cassie and Ennis story recalls my own story with this guy. Just I was Ennis and he was Cassie. And despite of my self analysis, I'm not sure that I've learnt the lesson  time will tell I suppose.

Sorry that I've finally made this longer than I planned, hope I haven't bored you to tears.

[FlwrChild]

Not at all, ayashae.

You have proven Annie Proulx's words to be true. And given another layer to the feelings and conflicts that must have been going on inside of Ennis, during that scene specifically, but also at various other times in their relationship. Thank you for sharing.

I really think we all share that personal connection to the story, or one or more of its characters, and that is why we respond the way we do. I am drawn to Jack, because in many ways in my own relationship, I have been him and have felt what he feels. Or what I imagine he feels, because that's the framework through which I am looking at him.

I suppose that's why I enjoy seeing everyone share their different views about the movie. It gives me a chance to learn about things I might not have seen otherwise, and to share insights from my own experience in return.

[tpe]

ayashae , I can relate to what you shared here.  Although the fear to reciprocate may not have been the same as the one Ennis exhibited and Jack endured, it is of the same substance.

As FlwrChild said, we all share a personal connection with the story, and I would not be surprised if the fear of love is at the core for many of us.  It's more universal than most people would want to admit, I believe.  This is why this topic moves us so.

[lancecowboy]

There was nothing resolved because there was that fear of what could go wrong, of what could be the response of one to the other.  As I had mentioned elsewhere, I thought Jack's "decision" to plan moving in with the Texas ranch neighbor was perhaps a way to rouse Ennis into action -- even if it meant hurting him some more.  True, it could have gone either way, but I think we can understand Jack's infidelities as a way of getting a reaction from Ennis -- perhaps making him realize that things will not be as is forever.

Fear of what could go wrong...fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of being left alone.

These are the fears that kept the two apart. Let us not forget the fear of social pressures...the pink elephant in the room.

I understand what Jack may think he was doing, consciously or otherwise. Nevertheless, He could just as effectively rouse Ennis into action by simply telling Ennis that he would no longer drive the distance for only a week or two. It has to be permanent, in Lightning Flat, or not at all. The ultimatum would have gotten more rousing action from Ennis. Infidelity is never a good thing to do in any relationship. I may be too naive to see the logic of telling someone you love that you are seeing someone else. It is as contrararian as can be. It's like saying I love pizza but I won't order any, instead I will only order hamburgers.  If I love someone, I would do what Jack did, tell them, never enough time, I want more time, I can hardly stand being apart from you. Or what Ennis said, don't tell me you are seeing someone else, because it hurts, it hurts enough for me to hurt you back, but I love you too d@#$ much to hurt you, so I can't take this no more.

Fear...yes...

Intentional infidelity to rouse jealous?  I don't think so.

Just my naivety, I guess.

[tpe]

Sadly, I don't think it would have been easy to rouse Ennis.  In fact, I doubt that threatening inability to drive back and forth would have made that much of a differences, since it was Ennis who, over the years, seemed to have been less and less able to meet.  But perhaps the most important thing is that Jack needed to see Ennis -- it would seem that if Ennis felt the same way, he suppressed it, because of his innate stoicism.

Naivety perhaps?       Stranger things happen in real life, lance. 

[lancecowboy]

Sadly, I don't think it would have been easy to rouse Ennis.  In fact, I doubt that threatening inability to drive back and forth would have made that much of a differences, since it was Ennis who, over the years, seemed to have been less and less able to meet.  But perhaps the most important thing is that Jack needed to see Ennis -- it would seem that if Ennis felt the same way, he suppressed it, because of his innate stoicism.

Naivety perhaps?       Stranger things happen in real life, lance. 

I love Jack more and more because of his persistence, his devoted faithfulness to Ennis over the years and over the distances, and because he pursued his dream, single-handedly captured the force of nature between them, made their love real for twenty years.

Ennis was always driven by Jack's persuasion, by his own need for Jack's love and friendship, by other people's opinion. I don't think it would take much to rouse Ennis if Jack pushed the right buttons. Alma managed to get him to move to Riverton by convincing him that it would be good for the girls, that they wouldn't be lonely like he was when he grew up. Jack needed to convince Ennis in his own terms, overcoming the third factor in the equation, making other people's opinions less of an issue. His suggestion to move to Texas was a good one, but he didn't pursue it further. Alma probably asked Ennis many times to move to Riverton. She probably waited a long time before a cheap apartment became available above the laundry mat. Jack, before the divorce scene, before the thanksgiving scene, probably would have the patience to pursue this, but the newly liberated Jack was more self-centered and self-absorbed to think about Ennis' circumstances.

The whole last meeting scene was about him, how Jack cannot get enough, how it's too cold, etc. He never acknowledged Ennis' sacrifice over the years, quitting job after job to be with him.

I am sorry to be harsh on Jack here, but it's not all of Ennis' fault.

His innate stoicism made the situation worse. If he had needed to be with Jack more often, Jack might have been able to convince him to move in together sooner. The irresistible force met the immovable object.

It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain.