Author Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain  (Read 363041 times)

vedrana

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #390 on: Apr 04, 2009, 07:18 AM »
Uh, I was writing so long (with some pauses) that you posted again in the mean time. Well my previous post refers to your previous post... ^*() did I make myself clear?  :i

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #391 on: Apr 04, 2009, 08:59 AM »
Lance, your post reminded me of a movie review in which  Ennis Del Mar was described as a classic western hero, who rides towards sunset, holding a deep sorrow of a lost love in his heart, no matter what a gender that love was. It is stated that BBM is in a way a classic western, in which was not meant that hero marry his only love, less for the restrains of the society and more because of the very nature of the specific, noble and individualistic solitary - the hero, Ennis! Also, it says that the solitary will suffer all his life for the lost love in his heart, nevertheless he can not feel any community as his own, coz he doesn't belong anywhere but to himself, his depressed feelings and melancholic memories...

I hope that you can understand my translation of the review. It gave me a whole new perspective of the movie. Not that it made any easier for me ( a Jack's lover), but I see a new side of Ennis (and Jack)... and somehow your post reminded me of that.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Every cowboy should know how to recognize his Jack along the way, grab him, slam him against the wall and do whatever it takes to keep him[/b] ::) .... and forget riding towards the sunset and the melancholy - only love is what matters in the end, I think!


Thank you loreen. Your translation of the review is beautiful, and apt. I never thought of it that way, but once you pointed it out, it makes perfect sense. Instead of the cowboy riding off into the sunset alone, in his solitary journey through life, we watch Ennis in that perfect last scene, and then the camera pan off into the distance, a thin strip of yellow leading off to the horizon.

I love this interpretation, and I only disagree with one point, the melancholy memories. As you know, I prefer to think of Ennis with his memories of the joy they shared, and not just the sorrow of love lost, opportunities missed. But that's just me.

Although I love the way you put what I quoted in red, I also think that was a special one-of. Ennis missed Jack for 'em four long years, thinking he lost him after the sucker punch, that Jack was sore. And Ennis was lucky to have Jack back in his life. That's why he was so happy, thanking the stars by the river and the fire. Yet, he was still afraid, and couldn't take the reins of the sweet life. That's the fear of love, even in the presence of the ecstasy of reunion.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

vedrana

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #392 on: Apr 04, 2009, 12:55 PM »

Thank you loreen. Your translation of the review is beautiful, and apt. I never thought of it that way, but once you pointed it out, it makes perfect sense. Instead of the cowboy riding off into the sunset alone, in his solitary journey through life, we watch Ennis in that perfect last scene, and then the camera pan off into the distance, a thin strip of yellow leading off to the horizon.

I love this interpretation, and I only disagree with one point, the melancholy memories. As you know, I prefer to think of Ennis with his memories of the joy they shared, and not just the sorrow of love lost, opportunities missed. But that's just me.

Although I love the way you put what I quoted in red, I also think that was a special one-of. Ennis missed Jack for 'em four long years, thinking he lost him after the sucker punch, that Jack was sore. And Ennis was lucky to have Jack back in his life. That's why he was so happy, thanking the stars by the river and the fire. Yet, he was still afraid, and couldn't take the reins of the sweet life. That's the fear of love, even in the presence of the ecstasy of reunion.


Lance, we disagree about the end of the movie, but I firmly believe ( and I think that you know that) that this forum would be much poorer without your different, special, optimistic point of view!  ^f^ I can't experience it in my heart, but I envy you for that in a way! You obviously see something that I'm not given.

I'm not sure if in the review they see the main character in the light of destroying sorrow in him, I think more as a sorrow incorporated, like the natural part of him, without which he would not be what he is...I don't know if this make sense, but he is supposed to be a solitary. The lost love is an inseparable part of him. And that reminds me of Ennis.

As for the reunion kiss: yes, Ennis was waiting for his beloved Jack for 4 long years, but some other Ennises are waiting for their Jacks who they don't know yet, maybe even a lifetime... enough reason for the crazy kiss when... ;)

 *o) About your fanfic - a few times I bumped into some people who were very interested in the next chapter. I think that you should continue writing ( although for now I still don't read fan fic about the time after Jack's death  :( ), but for your other readers... maybe you can make some effort and give them a pleasure of reading more of your beautiful words. :)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #393 on: Apr 04, 2009, 01:00 PM »
Lance, we disagree about the end of the movie, but I firmly believe ( and I think that you know that) that this forum would be much poorer without your different, special, optimistic point of view!  ^f^ I can't experience it in my heart, but I envy you for that in a way! You obviously see something that I'm not given.

I'm not sure if in the review they see the main character in the light of destroying sorrow in him, I think more as a sorrow incorporated, like the natural part of him, without which he would not be what he is...I don't know if this make sense, but he is supposed to be a solitary. The lost love is an inseparable part of him. And that reminds me of Ennis.

As for the reunion kiss: yes, Ennis was waiting for his beloved Jack for 4 long years, but some other Ennises are waiting for their Jacks who they don't know yet, maybe even a lifetime... enough reason for the crazy kiss when... ;)

 *o) About your fanfic - a few times I bumped into some people who were very interested in the next chapter. I think that you should continue writing ( although for now I still don't read fan fic about the time after Jack's death  :( ), but for your other readers... maybe you can make some effort and give them a pleasure of reading more of your beautiful words. :)

Thanks for all your kind words, loreen.

Perhaps now that I see Ennis more fully, I am ready to continue with the story, I have an outline planned for many years ahead. It was just stalled because I felt something was missing so I had no motivation to overcome all the stress and grief of late.

With loving fans and support like yours, how can I not continue the life of Ennis and his search for completeness?  :ghug: :^^) :c) ^f^
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #394 on: Apr 04, 2009, 01:03 PM »
Lance, we disagree about the end of the movie, but I firmly believe ( and I think that you know that) that this forum would be much poorer without your different, special, optimistic point of view!  ^f^ I can't experience it in my heart, but I envy you for that in a way! You obviously see something that I'm not given.

I'm not sure if in the review they see the main character in the light of destroying sorrow in him, I think more as a sorrow incorporated, like the natural part of him, without which he would not be what he is...I don't know if this make sense, but he is supposed to be a solitary. The lost love is an inseparable part of him. And that reminds me of Ennis.

As for the reunion kiss: yes, Ennis was waiting for his beloved Jack for 4 long years, but some other Ennises are waiting for their Jacks who they don't know yet, maybe even a lifetime... enough reason for the crazy kiss when... ;)

 *o) About your fanfic - a few times I bumped into some people who were very interested in the next chapter. I think that you should continue writing ( although for now I still don't read fan fic about the time after Jack's death  :( ), but for your other readers... maybe you can make some effort and give them a pleasure of reading more of your beautiful words. :)



That did indeed make sense and was very well expressed. As was the part in blue. Thank you. ^f^
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline jackster

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #395 on: Apr 04, 2009, 01:16 PM »
This thread's taken an real interesting turn here bringing cowboys and/or westerns into the picture. Maybe a little off the trail, but same path really, thanks LC an’ Loreen . . .

The myth of the lone cowboy is an extremely powerful American idea, especially for those of us who grew up weaned on TV and moviehouse Westerns. Annie and Ang, not to mention McMurtry and Ossana are all experts at this genre. To me Ennis is the very purest distillation of this concept as you've outlined here.

Two of my favorite Willie Nelson songs, easily found on YouTube with many wonderful videos:
My Hero's Have Always Been Cowboys
http://www.redux.com/shmeso/ntwZ3EgUfQldqtoU

and
Mama's Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Cowboys

A line from "Mama's" that hits me everytime, and I see Ennis - ridin’ his horse after FNIT, - sitting on the mountain just before the fight, - walkin’ away in Jack's mirror, -  or during the FC:

They'll never stay home,
And they're always alone,
Even with someone they love;
. . .
Cowboys ain't easy to love
And their harder to hold,
And if you don't understand him
And he don't die young,
He'll probably just ride away.

No wonder Jack loved him . . .
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

vedrana

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #396 on: Apr 04, 2009, 04:56 PM »
Thanks for all your kind words, loreen.

Perhaps now that I see Ennis more fully, I am ready to continue with the story, I have an outline planned for many years ahead. It was just stalled because I felt something was missing so I had no motivation to overcome all the stress and grief of late.

With loving fans and support like yours, how can I not continue the life of Ennis and his search for completeness?  :ghug: :^^) :c) ^f^

You're welcome Lance!  ^f^

I hope that developing of some discussions on the forum will help your inspiration to continue with your story, which will be something really special, as you are! :^^)

Offline traveller

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #397 on: Apr 04, 2009, 05:05 PM »
Loreen and Jackster, thank you for evoking the myth of lone coweboy. It's especially revealing for someone like me, someone who grew up not understanding the whole background of cowboy stories.  One thing is sure – never again my perception of cowboy stories will be the same as it was befor watching BBM.  Thank you.

Dear Andrew. I can't find words to say how much your thought of Ennis's fear of love is close to my heart. The taste of Ennis's fear of love and being loved was one of my most intensive feeling when I was watching BBM first time and it has not changed since that.  How could he not be afraid of something he never knew? How could he let himself for vulnarability and submission if he  never experienced someone's deep love and care? Knowing all I know about his past and in some way feeling his love to Jack, I have to say that I not only love Ennis from all my heart. I also admire him because in spite of eveything he overcame a lot of his fears and constrains, not only in LF but also during 20 years of loving Jack and letting Jack to love him. Even if Ennis's ability to open to Jack's love was not perfect, IMO he did the significant progress in his journey into happy life.
IMO the fear of love and being loved is one the deepest fears, we have to face in our life.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #398 on: Apr 04, 2009, 05:13 PM »
This thread's taken an real interesting turn here bringing cowboys and/or westerns into the picture. Maybe a little off the trail, but same path really, thanks LC an’ Loreen . . .

The myth of the lone cowboy is an extremely powerful American idea, especially for those of us who grew up weaned on TV and moviehouse Westerns. Annie and Ang, not to mention McMurtry and Ossana are all experts at this genre. To me Ennis is the very purest distillation of this concept as you've outlined here.

Two of my favorite Willie Nelson songs, easily found on YouTube with many wonderful videos:
My Hero's Have Always Been Cowboys
http://www.redux.com/shmeso/ntwZ3EgUfQldqtoU

and
Mama's Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Cowboys

A line from "Mama's" that hits me everytime, and I see Ennis - ridin’ his horse after FNIT, - sitting on the mountain just before the fight, - walkin’ away in Jack's mirror, -  or during the FC:

They'll never stay home,
And they're always alone,
Even with someone they love;
. . .
Cowboys ain't easy to love
And their harder to hold,
And if you don't understand him
And he don't die young,
He'll probably just ride away.

No wonder Jack loved him . . .


Thanks, bud. I avoided that song Mamas for the very reason you mentioned with the quoted lyrics.

I appreciate the other song. It makes sense of Ennis, as you said, the pure distillation of the cowboy's essence. I found another version on youtube, by Waylon Jennings:



I really like it, and the paintings in the video went real well with the song. I am so glad you mentioned it.

Thanks again. Happy trails, bud.  :c)
« Last Edit: Apr 04, 2009, 05:29 PM by lancecowboy »
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #399 on: Apr 04, 2009, 05:36 PM »
Loreen and Jackster, thank you for evoking the myth of lone coweboy. It's especially revealing for someone like me, someone who grew up not understanding the whole background of cowboy stories.  One thing is sure – never again my perception of cowboy stories will be the same as it was befor watching BBM.  Thank you.

Dear Andrew. I can't find words to say how much your thought of Ennis's fear of love is close to my heart. The taste of Ennis's fear of love and being loved was one of my most intensive feeling when I was watching BBM first time and it has not changed since that.  How could he not be afraid of something he never knew? How could he let himself for vulnarability and submission if he  never experienced someone's deep love and care? Knowing all I know about his past and in some way feeling his love to Jack, I have to say that I not only love Ennis from all my heart. I also admire him because in spite of eveything he overcame a lot of his fears and constrains, not only in LF but also during 20 years of loving Jack and letting Jack to love him. Even if Ennis's ability to open to Jack's love was not perfect, IMO he did the significant progress in his journey into happy life.
IMO the fear of love and being loved is one the deepest fears, we have to face in our life.

 :ghug: traveler  :ghug: I think you described how a lot of us feel. That was the genius of Heath, to capture so much in a performance saying so few words...the power of his mumbled whispers is more powerful than the shouting soliloquy by others. He conveyed the strength and vulnerability at the same time, the self-reliant independent spirit and the lonely child yearning for friendship and acceptance at the same time. I was not surprised, but had an ah-ha moment when I found out Heath had a Ying/Yang tattoo. Heath saw both sides of the world, and loved them just the same. I am getting way off topic, and edging towards tears on this anniversary of Heath's birthday.
 :ghug: Happy trails, traveller.



Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

vedrana

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #400 on: Apr 04, 2009, 05:49 PM »
Loreen and Jackster, thank you for evoking the myth of lone coweboy. It's especially revealing for someone like me, someone who grew up not understanding the whole background of cowboy stories.  One thing is sure – never again my perception of cowboy stories will be the same as it was befor watching BBM.  Thank you.

Dear Andrew. I can't find words to say how much your thought of Ennis's fear of love is close to my heart. The taste of Ennis's fear of love and being loved was one of my most intensive feeling when I was watching BBM first time and it has not changed since that.  How could he not be afraid of something he never knew? How could he let himself for vulnarability and submission if he  never experienced someone's deep love and care? Knowing all I know about his past and in some way feeling his love to Jack, I have to say that I not only love Ennis from all my heart. I also admire him because in spite of eveything he overcame a lot of his fears and constrains, not only in LF but also during 20 years of loving Jack and letting Jack to love him. Even if Ennis's ability to open to Jack's love was not perfect, IMO he did the significant progress in his journey into happy life.
IMO the fear of love and being loved is one the deepest fears, we have to face in our life.

Ennis's and Jack's unfortunate childhood was one of the first things I've sensed about them in the movie and as a mother I feel their empty childhood very deeply and very painfully. But Jack had his Ma, a person who really loved him dearly and who understood him. Ennis had a very strict father who obviously brought the worst fears in Ennis with his educational "methods". Ennis remembered his mother though, and it seems that she had loved him, but eventually Ennis became an orphan, and later - a person who went to herd sheep on Brokeback, coz there was no place for him in the society any more. He never found his place again, only some interstices where he half- existed.
I always believed that their empty childhood had a lots with their relationship - each was just what the other needed. All until that fight and coming down from the paradise. After that a lifetime struggle started and brought the tragedy.

If Ennis only knew how to accept as much as he was ready to give! But that was too much for our cowboy!  :\'(

Offline traveller

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #401 on: Apr 05, 2009, 05:28 PM »
:ghug: traveler  :ghug: I think you described how a lot of us feel. That was the genius of Heath, to capture so much in a performance saying so few words...the power of his mumbled whispers is more powerful than the shouting soliloquy by others. He conveyed the strength and vulnerability at the same time, the self-reliant independent spirit and the lonely child yearning for friendship and acceptance at the same time. I was not surprised, but had an ah-ha moment when I found out Heath had a Ying/Yang tattoo. Heath saw both sides of the world, and loved them just the same. I am getting way off topic, and edging towards tears on this anniversary of Heath's birthday.
 :ghug: Happy trails, traveller.




I am always impressed by the way you talk about Heath. Telling about Heath you make my love for him and for Ennis and also my understanding of them grow up.  For you  ^f^ from me.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline traveller

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #402 on: Apr 05, 2009, 05:44 PM »
Ennis's and Jack's unfortunate childhood was one of the first things I've sensed about them in the movie and as a mother I feel their empty childhood very deeply and very painfully. But Jack had his Ma, a person who really loved him dearly and who understood him. Ennis had a very strict father who obviously brought the worst fears in Ennis with his educational "methods". Ennis remembered his mother though, and it seems that she had loved him, but eventually Ennis became an orphan, and later - a person who went to herd sheep on Brokeback, coz there was no place for him in the society any more. He never found his place again, only some interstices where he half- existed.
I always believed that their empty childhood had a lots with their relationship - each was just what the other needed. All until that fight and coming down from the paradise. After that a lifetime struggle started and brought the tragedy.

If Ennis only knew how to accept as much as he was ready to give! But that was too much for our cowboy!  :\'(

Loreen, it's so beautiful and empathic what you said about Ennis. It's strange how we are moved reading someone's thoughts which express our feelings. It's always inspiring and provoking for further consideration. I am especialy touched by the last sentence of your post. I have never realized so clearly that in spite of his experiences, Ennis was still ready to give so much. I missed to appreciate that. In spite of the whole lonliness of his life, he was still ready to love (even if not perfectly but still love) :\'(
Thank you, Loreen ^f^
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #403 on: Apr 05, 2009, 10:27 PM »
[...]
I always believed that their empty childhood had a lots with their relationship - each was just what the other needed. All until that fight and coming down from the paradise. After that a lifetime struggle started and brought the tragedy.

If Ennis only knew how to accept as much as he was ready to give! But that was too much for our cowboy! :\'(

Loreen, it's so beautiful and empathic what you said about Ennis. It's strange how we are moved reading someone's thoughts which express our feelings. It's always inspiring and provoking for further consideration. I am especialy touched by the last sentence of your post. I have never realized so clearly that in spite of his experiences, Ennis was still ready to give so much. I missed to appreciate that. In spite of the whole lonliness of his life, he was still ready to love (even if not perfectly but still love) :\'(
Thank you, Loreen ^f^
^f^ loreen  ^f^ traveller  :clap:

I love what you both said here. Ennis was still yearning for love...as evident by his asking Alma Jr. "This Kurt, does he love you?" He understood what love is, once he was shown it in Jack's closet, the hope/joy/passion that kept him on a short leash for twenty years.  Before Lightning Flats, Ennis was ready to love, to give at every opportunity, but didn't know how, no more than what he did on the mountain, being the cowboy for Jack. His emotions were all tied up in knots. Only after Lightning Flats, that his heart was opened, and filled with love that freed him to give emotionally. He was made perfect in Jack's closet, and in Jack's Ma's kitchen. Her love and compassion also showed Ennis that there is love in other places, beyond Jack, in family.  :c) ^f^

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #404 on: Apr 06, 2009, 08:10 AM »
It's funny, how something old can be something new again.

I was just taking my long stroll in the sun today, when all of a sudden it struck me what this meant, fear of love. I didn't understand this thread all this time, but now I see it, and agree with most of what had been said.

Poor Ennis...his fear was not just his homophobia from his daddy, but also his fear of love for the lack of love from all 'em years.

That summer of '63 was the closest he was ever going to get to loving and being loved. Sitting there on the grassy knoll, thinking, thinking of the love, the love to be lost, wanting but afraid, yearning but feeling helpless.

That fight was all the anger and frustration released. And then for four years afterwards, the regret, the fear, the anger, the guilt, ... No wonder he was ecstatic seeing Jack again. That reunion was all the love coming back in one rushing moment.

And then finding the shirts after twenty years, after losing Jack, in the grief of forever losing the love of his life.

In a way, the story had to end that way. Ennis was not only homophobic, but also afraid of love, afraid of loving and being loved. Even if Jack were not there in the middle, his marriage with Alma was doomed. There was affection but not love. He would do anything for Alma and the girls, even moving to Riverton, but he wasn't loved and loving the way he was with Jack, totaling and completing, touching and merging of two souls. He could only love Jack the way it was, a few times a year in the middle of no where, or forever in the closet of his empty trailer, and every once in a while in his dreams wetting his pillows or his sheets. To love Jack more often than that, even if it were possible, meant a kind of vulnerability and submission to another, that was just too foreign for the always independent self-reliant cowboy. It was okay when they were two work buddies on the mountain, but out of it, down in civilization, even in Denver or San Francisco, Ennis would only be what he was with Cassie, always there but pulling away. Never committing.

Poor Ennis. I think I was holding back writing the rest of my fan fiction, the continuation, Return to Brokeback Mountain. I didn't think I had enough to write about the life of Ennis after losing Jack. It's funny, how I thought I knew Ennis, when I didn't know him that well at all. I don't if I do now. I guess I will have to watch the movie, read the short story, again and again.

I think this is very true, lance.  In fact, I think that it was Ennis's fear of love that probably was more significant, although his homophobia was also an important factor.  The fear to love wnet beyond homophobia, and it certainly manifested itself in his relationship with Alma and his own daughters. 

The fight scene was certainly a gut reaction NOT to show how he truly felt for Jack.  In a sense, gender wasn't the central factor for his "outburst." 

The same can be said for the scene in the alley...

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #405 on: Apr 06, 2009, 08:13 AM »


The myth of the lone cowboy is an extremely powerful American idea, especially for those of us who grew up weaned on TV and moviehouse Westerns. Annie and Ang, not to mention McMurtry and Ossana are all experts at this genre. To me Ennis is the very purest distillation of this concept as you've outlined here.

Very true: the epitome of the strong silent type.  But, in a sense, Ennis is a subversive realization of this tradition. 

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #406 on: Apr 06, 2009, 08:25 AM »
Very true: the epitome of the strong silent type.  But, in a sense, Ennis is a subversive realization of this tradition. 

Interesting choice of word, tpe, subversive. What do you mean by that?

I always thought the word meant to convert from within, covertly, using sneaky methods. The dictionary's list of synonyms include: traitorous, treacherous, seditious, destructive.

I don't think Ennis was out to change the cowboy's way of life, but to extend it, enrich it. In a sense, I suppose you can say that Brokeback Mountain itself, the movie, was subversive of the iconic cowboy stereotype, Jack most of all. But the real subversion happened long ago, in the men's liberation movement, when the Marlboro man already gave way to the metro man, the sensitive urban man.

If anything, Heath's Ennis made the cowboy alive again, by injecting into the iconic stereotype a new element, a new angst that transcends the old strong silent type. The new cowboy is also sensitive, but suffers silently within, not out of sight like the cowboys of old, but visibly, in the little mannerisms that only Heath could make real.

Sorry, bud. Just can't see subversive in Ennis. Just got to agree to disagree with you, I guess. No hard feelings.  :c)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #407 on: Apr 06, 2009, 08:37 AM »
Hello lance.   It is subversive in that it goes beyond the tradition of the strong and silent type and reveals that humanity and the frailty that marks such characters in real life.

It is subversive in that it shows that the tradition is based on an outwardly strong image but one that suffers inwardly from a deep sense of brokenness -- and sometimes, alienation. 

Offline jackster

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #408 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:08 AM »
Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent  ;)).

This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.

They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.


we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #409 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:10 AM »
Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent  ;)).

This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.

They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.



hmmm very interesting  :s)

vedrana

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #410 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:12 AM »
Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent  ;)).

This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.

They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.


I agree with this!

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #411 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:31 AM »
Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent  ;)).

This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.

They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.



Wow!  :s) This thread is taking on an interesting twist. Was the fear of love, an innate part of the iconic cowboy, which, I think we all agree, Ennis was the epitome? Is it right to call it fear of love, if it is in fact, a part of the solitary character of the persona.  :s)

Is it subversive for Ennis to show the vulnerable angst, the human frailty suffering from the loneliness of love denied, love lost?

Is the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, the innate conflict that Ennis was destined to struggle with, to hold on to the iconic cowboy persona, or to hold on to the love of his life? Can a cowboy be in love, or as the song says,
They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.

Thanks, jackster. Food for thought.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #412 on: Apr 07, 2009, 07:21 AM »
Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent  ;)).

This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.

They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.


This is true.  But it is also understandable that as the cowboy way of life disappeared throughout the 20th century (except in a few isolated pockets) there was a strong tendency to idealize the life in popular and folk culture.  Even the tinge of loneliness that marked several of these efforts were strongly stylized and even sentimental in certain well known cases.  Hollywood did not really invent this -- they simply took on the sentiment of the day.    And of course, the Marlboro Man is also a rection to this...


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #413 on: Apr 07, 2009, 08:31 AM »
I have been thinking about your subversion concept, tpe, and here is what I think.

In a sense, Jack and Ennis are the ying and yang of the cowboy stereotype: Jack, the rodeo cowboy who thrives in the limelight, who is the life of the party, the best salesman, and Ennis, the quiet devoted hard working solitary figure who knows what to do and how to do all things around the ranch, fixing the engine, pitching the tent, shooting the elk, cooking and protecting the sheep. That's what makes them perfect together, not competing with each other, but respectful of the other.

To me, Brokeback Mountain and Jack are definitely subversive of the iconic cowboy, but Ennis was the iconic cowboy that was subverted. He was the solitary figure content with nothing and beans. Jack was the rodeo cowboy more interested in belt buckles than doing the work around the camp. Jack was the one who wanted more than a few high attitude f@#$ks a few times a year. Jack was the one whose love kept their relationship going for twenty years. As far as Ennis was concerned, they could have left it on Brokeback that summer, and he would've been just fine with Alma and the girls...not passionately happy pawing the white from the moon, perhaps, but fine nonetheless. It was because of Jack, that he was like that, with nothing, a nobody without him, brooding in the bar alone, drinking beer after beer, like any iconic cowboy would. That's what the short story led to, the lonely Ennis living in an empty run down trailer.

I think it was Heath's genius to transform that miserable figure from the short story to the radiant symbol of an iconic cowboy made human, extending the strength and silence to embrace the frailty and sentiments of a man capable of love. So the answer to my earlier question, whether fear of love is innate to the iconic cowboy, is affirmative, but Heath's genius changed that, and made it possible to be a solitary self-reliant cowboy, with feelings. That's why Brokeback Mountain resonates with so many, and why Heath deserved an Academy Award for his performance. It was ground-breaking not because of the gay issue, but because of the fundamental American mystique of the cowboy and love. The fearlessness of Heath drove out the fear of love in the cowboy.

Heath turned a subverted cowboy into a new hero, for me.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline jackster

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #414 on: Apr 07, 2009, 12:09 PM »
Whew! You’ve laid it out pretty damn well here Andrew. Fantastic post. Ain’t got much more to add, don’t need much more said. Your picture of Heath and what he brought to the table is spot on in my book. He showed us that even these lonely old bachelor cowboys can have a spark in their heart, enough to ignite a bonfire, when a star falls from the sky and lights up their kindling wood. Jack was that star for Ennis, and they both knew it, eventually.

Great work cowboy.
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #415 on: Apr 07, 2009, 01:36 PM »
Whew! You’ve laid it out pretty damn well here Andrew. Fantastic post. Ain’t got much more to add, don’t need much more said. Your picture of Heath and what he brought to the table is spot on in my book. He showed us that even these lonely old bachelor cowboys can have a spark in their heart, enough to ignite a bonfire, when a star falls from the sky and lights up their kindling wood. Jack was that star for Ennis, and they both knew it, eventually.

Great work cowboy.

 :t) bud. I owe that to you. I wouldn't be thinking about it otherwise.

I like the way you put that, so for sure there is a lot more to be said. It's all beautiful, said in our own ways.

May we all catch our falling star in our own time.  :c) :cr)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #416 on: Apr 08, 2009, 07:48 AM »
I have been thinking about your subversion concept, tpe, and here is what I think.

In a sense, Jack and Ennis are the ying and yang of the cowboy stereotype: Jack, the rodeo cowboy who thrives in the limelight, who is the life of the party, the best salesman, and Ennis, the quiet devoted hard working solitary figure who knows what to do and how to do all things around the ranch, fixing the engine, pitching the tent, shooting the elk, cooking and protecting the sheep. That's what makes them perfect together, not competing with each other, but respectful of the other.

To me, Brokeback Mountain and Jack are definitely subversive of the iconic cowboy, but Ennis was the iconic cowboy that was subverted. He was the solitary figure content with nothing and beans. Jack was the rodeo cowboy more interested in belt buckles than doing the work around the camp. Jack was the one who wanted more than a few high attitude f@#$ks a few times a year. Jack was the one whose love kept their relationship going for twenty years. As far as Ennis was concerned, they could have left it on Brokeback that summer, and he would've been just fine with Alma and the girls...not passionately happy pawing the white from the moon, perhaps, but fine nonetheless. It was because of Jack, that he was like that, with nothing, a nobody without him, brooding in the bar alone, drinking beer after beer, like any iconic cowboy would. That's what the short story led to, the lonely Ennis living in an empty run down trailer.

I think it was Heath's genius to transform that miserable figure from the short story to the radiant symbol of an iconic cowboy made human, extending the strength and silence to embrace the frailty and sentiments of a man capable of love. So the answer to my earlier question, whether fear of love is innate to the iconic cowboy, is affirmative, but Heath's genius changed that, and made it possible to be a solitary self-reliant cowboy, with feelings. That's why Brokeback Mountain resonates with so many, and why Heath deserved an Academy Award for his performance. It was ground-breaking not because of the gay issue, but because of the fundamental American mystique of the cowboy and love. The fearlessness of Heath drove out the fear of love in the cowboy.

Heath turned a subverted cowboy into a new hero, for me.

Thanks lance.  :)

I think that both characters (Ennis and Jack) to a large extent subverted the popular image of a cowboy as stoic and cool, masculine and very unemotional.  We see this very much in the character of Ennis, where the stoic facade hides the boiling emotions underneath.   And Jack is much too volatile, "feminine"/"soft", and sympathetic/empathetic to even fit the image of the stoic strong silent type...


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #417 on: Apr 08, 2009, 10:03 AM »
Thanks lance.  :)

I think that both characters (Ennis and Jack) to a large extent subverted the popular image of a cowboy as stoic and cool, masculine and very unemotional.  We see this very much in the character of Ennis, where the stoic facade hides the boiling emotions underneath.   And Jack is much too volatile, "feminine"/"soft", and sympathetic/empathetic to even fit the image of the stoic strong silent type...


 ;D you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"?  %&) (t) With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?

Sorry, it just struck me as funny/ironic.  But yes, Jack is more sympathetic/empathetic, like with little dogs and little lambs and little children (like Bobby), and also as a salesman. Great salesmen have to be empathetic to customer needs and wants without them verbalizing them. That's why Jack was the best combine salesman they got.

Jack was more the urban cowboy, while Ennis was the iconic cowboy.  Just my two cents worth.

We can agree to disagree on the finer point of who was doing subverting (Jack) and who was the subverted (Ennis). In a sense, this is like the top/bottom discussion. We don't have to agree on it. Art allows personal interpretation up to a point, which enriches it, rather than reduces it.

Thanks for the subversion concept in any case.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

babytammy7

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #418 on: Apr 08, 2009, 10:49 AM »
;D you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"?  %&) (t) With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?


Jesus!!  (t) (t) I thought the same when I read Thomas post!!!  ;D ;D

Sorry Thomas, but I so completely disagree with you this time, babe. Jack was very emotional and sure he was a sweet guy when young, but Jack was a VERY strong man to stand all that pain during those 20 years and that hell that was his childhood.....Also he was very brave!! A bull rider, the guy who was not scared of tire irons like Ennis was, the guy who never cried in front of Ennis or was "weak" and romantic with him. Jack was not soft, just tender and understanding and he comforted Ennis when Ennis was the "soft" emotional one in the confrontation scene. Jack was mad and furious during that scene, but not soft, not even once; remember that he didn't even blink when Ennis told him that all the things Jack did could get him killed.....
That's about soft....About feminine.....THOMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (t) (t) (t) Why did you said that? I just can't believe it!! Jack feminine? He was not any of that at 19, but sure he was all the opposite to feminine when he was 39!!! He looked/was manly and talked, walked and acted all man and all cowboy!!!!

There are million of straight men than are like Jack, and millions of straight women that are like Ennis and act like a stoic cowboy. Not fair to call feminine to someone who is not afraid to show what they are feeling, someone who is not ashamed of being in love.

Thomas....you deserve a spanking for this!!!  ;D ;D  :^^)

vedrana

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #419 on: Apr 08, 2009, 02:09 PM »
Thanks lance.  :)

I think that both characters (Ennis and Jack) to a large extent subverted the popular image of a cowboy as stoic and cool, masculine and very unemotional.  We see this very much in the character of Ennis, where the stoic facade hides the boiling emotions underneath.   And Jack is much too volatile, "feminine"/"soft", and sympathetic/empathetic to even fit the image of the stoic strong silent type...
;D you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"?  %&) (t) With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?

I see that you put "feminine" and "soft" in the quotation marks, so I suppose that you mean -  >>regarded as "feminine"/"soft"<<.

Both Ennis and Jack really have a feminine and a masculine side: Ennis is faithful (feminine), Jack is promiscuous (masculine), Ennis doesn't want to settle down with him (masculine), Jack wants home for 2 of them (feminine), Jack opposes LD and took the leading man role in the house (masculine), Ennis romantically waits for his only love - Jack (feminine), Jack always takes initiative (masculine), and Ennis follows (feminine), Jack drives 14 hours one way (masculine) and the princess Ennis is waiting in his home (feminine)....

Jack is also soft, but only in the positive meaning of that word - understanding, benevolent, comforting, caring. But his softness is not always good  - it cost him maybe even the "sweet life", coz he never showed a firm stand, a blackmailing attitude towards Ennis and his fears, to make him accept the offer for the common life. Still it is a very appealing part of his nature. <^( <^( <^(  His opened expression of feelings is also soft and more feminine, but I don't take that as a label or as something negative.

So I think that "feminine"/"soft" is not a bad thing to say about Jack, coz part of his characteristics can really imply this estimation, (as well as Ennis's).

Lance, many women have a mustache and a big hat....  ::) ... and I wouldn't connect that with anything....  ;) ;D