Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[bowl_of_glow]

But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.

For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.

Very interesting point you made here, Tam.

I totally agree with you, when you say Jack wasn’t in control in that final scene...
He was mad and hurt and so tired, I think. Tired of having to put up with everything Ennis decided for them, and he lashed out with everything he haven’t said during those years of suffering- all those thing that Ennis would never know if he hadn’t lost it like that.
It was his chance to make Ennis understand just how much he had suffered during those years- I think he really spoke without being afraid of Ennis’s reaction that time, ‘cause he wanted him to see he was really hurting.

I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.
As for Ennis... I guess his true nature was restrained by what was tought him and by all the rules he felt he had to follow, but we know that he could be a tender, loving man, like we can see in his relationship with Jack. But I don’t know, it’s just me probably, but I see him as a shy/tender guy more than a really ‘passionate’ man. Of course he was capable of loving fiercly and I’m not saying he loved Jack less than Jack loved him or whatever... Just the word ‘passionate’ fits Jack better than Ennis in my own opinion.
‘Cause Ennis always tried to keep his emotions in check and I can see Jack as the one who let himself be carried away by his feelings (like in the divorce scene, when he drove 14 hours led by his hope only). And I think that Ennis’s suffocated true nature was the one of a tender man...

I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well.
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.

[myprivatejack]

Very interesting point you made here, Tam.

I totally agree with you, when you say Jack wasn’t in control in that final scene...
He was mad and hurt and so tired, I think. Tired of having to put up with everything Ennis decided for them, and he lashed out with everything he haven’t said during those years of suffering- all those thing that Ennis would never know if he hadn’t lost it like that.
It was his chance to make Ennis understand just how much he had suffered during those years- I think he really spoke without being afraid of Ennis’s reaction that time, ‘cause he wanted him to see he was really hurting.

I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.
As for Ennis... I guess his true nature was restrained by what was tought him and by all the rules he felt he had to follow, but we know that he could be a tender, loving man, like we can see in his relationship with Jack. But I don’t know, it’s just me probably, but I see him more like a shy/tender guy more than a really ‘passionate’ man. Of course he was capable of loving fiercly and I’m not saying he loved Jack less than Jack loved him or whatever... Just the word ‘passionate’ fits Jack better than Ennis in my own opinion.
‘Cause Ennis always tried to keep his emotions in check and I can see Jack as the one who let himself be carried away by his feelings (like in the postcard scene, when he drove 14 hours led by his hope only). And I think that Ennis’s suffocated true nature was the one of a tender man...

I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well.
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.

I think both of them were really tired of having spent so much of their lives wasting their opportunities of being really happy with one another.This moment on the mountain,with this "little" excuse of delaying their new reunion some months more,was also the opportunity for both of them of telling each other all what they had inside themselves but that-maybe one for fear,and the one for pride-hadn't dared to say in out voice before.
And I also agree with both of you in that,on one side,Jack's nature was more emotional,more demonstrative,but at the same time calmer and more patient,capable to spend half his life waiting for the man he loved.In this sense,his stoicism was closer to the one of Ennis,who,on the other hand,spent this time hidding his real feelings and sensations.He's able to accept things the way they are,without moving an only finger to change it,and in  this sense he can seem calmer and easier than Jack;but,as Tammy says,the fact of repressing his wishes all the time along with this unsatisfactory situation both of them must live,make him become a timing bomb,when his fears explode in some real violence attacks.Some aggressiveness that Jack didn't need to show,because he behave all the time in a more constant way,in spite of his more passionate way of being-at least in the surface...-.
I think,in sum,that,as in so many other aspects of their life,ways of being and reactions,Ennis and Jack complemented each other really well,giving one another this little,or not so little,part that lacks in the other.As a matter of fact,if they fell in love in these far times in the mountain,it's in a greater extent because of this complementary aspect,because of the way they can give themselves this strenght to addapt in each other the other's characteristics they were lacked of.IMHO.

[babytammy7]

 

Very interesting thoughts, Tammy. On the one hand, I agree with you that Ennis is passion suppressed beneath a layer of stoicism, and finds opportunities to erupt, either in anger or in love; on the other hand, I think the question here is whether a "typical cowboy" or the "iconic cowboy" has these fierce rainbow of feelings. My contention is that they do, and the suppression is realistic, and Heath made Ennis the real typical cowboy in spite of our prejudices of what real cowboys should be, and in the cases of people with PBS, changed those prejudices.

Beautifully said, Tammy. Ennis and Jack also evolved at different times in the film, as you said, after the divorce, the riverside moving to Texas discussion, etc. It is why I don't agree with tpe's male/female split of the two. Ennis and Jack really are soul mates with no distinctions between the maleness and femaleness of either. They are one role then another, switching constantly.  When we impose outside world standards to them individually, they fall apart. Together without the world, they are just one living breathing couple.

Thanks for sharing Tammy.   It's beautiful.

Thank you so much, Andrew.   I was thinking about you when I wrote this, because I knew that you don’t see Ennis as I see him, and that’s ok. I love reading what you think about it. I always learn from you!!  

[babytammy7]

Very interesting point you made here, Tam.

I totally agree with you, when you say Jack wasn’t in control in that final scene...
He was mad and hurt and so tired, I think. Tired of having to put up with everything Ennis decided for them, and he lashed out with everything he haven’t said during those years of suffering- all those thing that Ennis would never know if he hadn’t lost it like that.
It was his chance to make Ennis understand just how much he had suffered during those years- I think he really spoke without being afraid of Ennis’s reaction that time, ‘cause he wanted him to see he was really hurting.

I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.
As for Ennis... I guess his true nature was restrained by what was tought him and by all the rules he felt he had to follow, but we know that he could be a tender, loving man, like we can see in his relationship with Jack. But I don’t know, it’s just me probably, but I see him more like a shy/tender guy more than a really ‘passionate’ man. Of course he was capable of loving fiercly and I’m not saying he loved Jack less than Jack loved him or whatever... Just the word ‘passionate’ fits Jack better than Ennis in my own opinion.
‘Cause Ennis always tried to keep his emotions in check and I can see Jack as the one who let himself be carried away by his feelings (like in the postcard scene, when he drove 14 hours led by his hope only). And I think that Ennis’s suffocated true nature was the one of a tender man...

I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well.
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.

Hey, Baby B!!!! 

So good having you here!!  Thank you for commenting on my post.

Well, I don’t see Ennis as shy. I know that it’s the common word that everyone uses for him, but it doesn’t work for me, because I am shy, real shy, and Ennis doesn’t act like I use to do. Ennis danced with Cassie, even he if didn’t like it that much, then did it again when they both were with Junior; he went with Jack to have a drink that first time they met, he told stories to his girls in front of his angry ex and a man he hardly knew (Monroe), etc....
I think that shyness is not the same that quietness, you know? I think Ennis was quiet in the outside, that he didn’t talk that much, but it doesn’t mean that he was shy. I am shy and I can speak a blue streak, so Ennis being silent doesn’t mean that he’s shy.
About passionate I still see him as a very passionate man. You said that he tried to keep his emotions in check, and that’s true: he kept them in check, but it only means that he kept his passionate self in check, so we can hardly see it....But it was there nontheless.
I mean, it was Ennis the one losing control in the love department (FNIT and Reunion scene) and also it was him again who acted very passionately and fierce when he was scared or mad (the punch to Jack, the fireworks scene, thanksgiving scene, the confrontation scene), even in the domestic intimacy with Alma when he flipped her and took her like he did with Jack. Ennis tries to keep his emotions in check, right, but he hardly ever did success. He was so visceral, and the proof of that is that he vomited or fought someone when he couldn’t control his emotions. He was very passionate in every aspect of his life, and had not his father showed him Earl in that ditch, I am absolutely convinced that Ennis would have been a man who showed his emotions openly, above all, because he can’t control them.

For me Jack was sweet and strong, kind and a constant fighter, but I still think that Ennis was more passionate. When Jack drove to Riverton in the divorce scene, for me, it was not a demonstration of passion. I think that Jack acted like that out of sheer devotion and hope. Also I admit that Jack is a very impulsive man too, but he’s not as much as Ennis, because Jack walked on egg shells during 20 years, avoiding startling Ennis, and had he been that passionate I don’t think he could have done for that long. Remember that Jack only exploded in the confrontation scene, and a passionate person had done that so much earlier. Also remember how he reacted when Aguirre told him about steaming the rose...I don’t think that Ennis had reacted like that!! I think that Ennis’d have kicked Aguirre’s ass for good.
Jack loved deeply, blindly, he hoped to live with Ennis, but Ennis had told him that he couldn’t let Alma and the babies down, so when Jack got that postcard he thought that Ennis was telling him that now they could live together, because Alma didn’t need him anymore. So for me, Jack drove 14 hours north not because he was passionate, but because it was logical to think that now Ennis and him had a change to be happy.

About Ennis true nature being a tender one, I so agree with that. In my previous post I said that for me Ennis is passionate and tender. You can see both of those traits in the film, and especially in the SS. I’ve always defined Jack as sweet and Ennis as tender. That man was tenderness on legs, with Jack, his girls, his horses. Again, had not his father ruined his childhood, I bet he had showed that tender side more often. But it doesn’t mean that he’s not passionate. He kept both emotions in check, but they were there, and Jack could see them.

That’s why I don’t think Ennis was a stoic, shy, silent typical cowboy. I think he was a passionate, tender, good man, who was scared and conflicted because of what he saw being a child, and also because of his inner homophobia and what society expected from him, and that’s what made him act that way, like a stoic cowboy....but it doesn’t mean that he was like that. Often we are forced to act in a way in front of the society but we are all the contrary inside.

This is only my opinion, and like I said before, I know that maybe I am alone here with this, but this is how I feel our boys right now.

Thank you so much for letting me know what you think, Baby B!! Love it when you are here. 

[babytammy7]

I think both of them were really tired of having spent so much of their lives wasting their opportunities of being really happy with one another.This moment on the mountain,with this "little" excuse of delaying their new reunion some months more,was also the opportunity for both of them of telling each other all what they had inside themselves but that-maybe one for fear,and the one for pride-hadn't dared to say in out voice before.
And I also agree with both of you in that,on one side,Jack's nature was more emotional,more demonstrative,but at the same time calmer and more patient,capable to spend half his life waiting for the man he loved.In this sense,his stoicism was closer to the one of Ennis,who,on the other hand,spent this time hidding his real feelings and sensations.He's able to accept things the way they are,without moving an only finger to change it,and in  this sense he can seem calmer and easier than Jack;but,as Tammy says,the fact of repressing his wishes all the time along with this unsatisfactory situation both of them must live,make him become a timing bomb,when his fears explode in some real violence attacks.Some aggressiveness that Jack didn't need to show,because he behave all the time in a more constant way,in spite of his more passionate way of being-at least in the surface...-.
I think,in sum,that,as in so many other aspects of their life,ways of being and reactions,Ennis and Jack complemented each other really well,giving one another this little,or not so little,part that lacks in the other.As a matter of fact,if they fell in love in these far times in the mountain,it's in a greater extent because of this complementary aspect,because of the way they can give themselves this strenght to addapt in each other the other's characteristics they were lacked of.IMHO.

LOL!! I just spent a year writing a post for Baby B and now I have to reply yours!! 

I agree with what you said here, Ali. 

I think that Ennis accepted things not because he was calm or stoic, but because he didn’t have another choice. He was scared, conflicted, hurting....and he acted out of it. Jack, in the other hand, thought that they both had other choices, that they could change their lives, and still he accepted what Ennis had to give, he was calm and patient about it, he was the stoic one who accepted the nature of their love and the circumstances they have to live that love in. He really was there the one who remained in silent for 20 years, hoping, yeah, but accepting their fate. That’s why in the confrontation scene he said “we coulda had a sweet life”, I mean he didn’t say “we can have a sweet life but you don’t want”...He used the past tense, because he knew that they were not gonna live that sweet life ever and still he kept coming for more, he kept meeting Ennis, he accepted with stoicism the way their relationship was and was gonna be always.

It’s true that Jack was the more demonstrative one, as you said, and I think that’s the key word here. He was more demonstrative than Ennis, but it doesn’t mean that he was more emotional or passionate than Ennis. It’s only that he didn’t have that horrible past heavy over his shoulders like Ennis had, and those other prejudices, and he could show more of his emotions, while Ennis couldn’t. Still, Jack didn’t act on his feeling most of times, because he was afraid of Ennis reaction, and that once again tells me that he was the stoic one, you know, the one who had to accept a situation that kept him from showing his real self. I think he, like Ennis, kept his emotions in check for 20 years.

As Ali said, the fact that Ennis had to kept his emotions in check made him a time-bomb, but it was the same for Jack. That’s why he exploded in the confrontation scene.

Oh, God, I can’t stop rambling!!! 

I am so very interested in reading what Andrew, or Thomas and the rest of brokies have to say.

Thank you for your post, Ali. 

[bowl_of_glow]

 ...I still see him as a very passionate man. You said that he tried to keep his emotions in check, and that’s true: he kept them in check, but it only means that he kept his passionate self in check, so we can hardly see it....But it was there nontheless.
I mean, it was Ennis the one losing control in the love department (FNIT and Reunion scene) and also it was him again who acted very passionately and fierce when he was scared or mad (the punch to Jack, the fireworks scene, thanksgiving scene, the confrontation scene), even in the domestic intimacy with Alma when he flipped her and took her like he did with Jack. Ennis tries to keep his emotions in check, right, but he hardly ever did success. He was so visceral, and the proof of that is that he vomited or fought someone when he couldn’t control his emotions. He was very passionate in every aspect of his life, and had not his father showed him Earl in that ditch, I am absolutely convinced that Ennis would have been a man who showed his emotions openly, above all, because he can’t control them.

...Also I admit that Jack is a very impulsive man too, but he’s not as much as Ennis, because Jack walked on egg shells during 20 years, avoiding startling Ennis, and had he been that passionate I don’t think he could have done for that long. Remember that Jack only exploded in the confrontation scene, and a passionate person had done that so much earlier. Also remember how he reacted when Aguirre told him about steaming the rose...I don’t think that Ennis had reacted like that!! I think that Ennis’d have kicked Aguirre’s ass for good.
Jack loved deeply, blindly, he hoped to live with Ennis, but Ennis had told him that he couldn’t let Alma and the babies down, so when Jack got that postcard he thought that Ennis was telling him that now they could live together, because Alma didn’t need him anymore. So for me, Jack drove 14 hours north not because he was passionate, but because it was logical to think that now Ennis and him had a change to be happy.

Thank you for sharing your deep thoughts, sweetie.
Reading them it's a pleasure. Never thought of Ennis as passionate before, but what you said here was right anyway... And you're right again, saying that shy and quiet are two different things, I know. It's just, in our minds quiet=shy, isn't it? 'Cause lots of times it's like that. I mean, I'm both quiet AND shy.
And Jack, well, I think most of the times he was afraid of losing Ennis, that's why he kept quiet. The divorce scene, I don't see it as a logical thing though... I mean, driving all that way... he wasn't even sure Ennis would finally be with him. He just hoped so. And when he didn't say anything to Ennis... he was broken-hearted but he didn't tell him. He just drove away without saying anything.
He did it because of Ennis, another time...
Yeah, he had not only a lot of hope, but a lot of patience too...

Thanks Tam.  

[lancecowboy]

Thank you so much, Andrew.   I was thinking about you when I wrote this, because I knew that you don’t see Ennis as I see him, and that’s ok. I love reading what you think about it. I always learn from you!!  

The feelings are mutual. 

[tpe]

Huh, I think I disagree here…

Ennis can seem to be a very stoic, silent, in control cowboy, but for me he’s a ticking time-bomb. We don’t only see him lose control in the confrontation scene or in the reunion scene. He also lost control in the Thanksgiving scene (with Alma and then the truck driver), FNIT and in the fireworks scene. He’s very passionate and impulsive and I think that’s his real nature, but he was taught to hide his feelings and real self, and that’s why he looked like a typical cowboy but I never bought that. Ennis is able to show the greatest tenderness, and also he’s fierce when showing love, and I don’t think that a typical cowboy man could display such a rainbow of feelings.

Also, you say that Jack was in control here, but I can’t see it. Jack is always kind with Ennis, even when Ennis is shooting his plane out of the sky. I mean, Ennis said not to the sweet life in the reunion scene and Jack caressed Ennis ear. Ennis sent him away in the divorce scene and Jack didn’t bitch, didn’t fight, didn’t complain or say a bad word. There he was in control till he started to cry....
Even after Ennis punched him up on Brokeback Jack was calm, in self control.....understanding. Then, when Ennis mocked him about moving to Texas, Jack stormed away and didn’t complain much.

But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.

For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.

This view of our cowboys is also new for me....I started to feel like this one month ago....and still I have to explore this more deeply....I don't even know if this make sense...and I know you all don't share this idea with me....

Well, you are right in many points.  But I'm probably confusing things here because I was refering to the scene in 1963 right before they came down BBM, and not the Last Confrontation.  Did I confuse you here?  Do my comments make more sense, in this light?

In any case, when I speak of control, I meant Jack having control over himself, and not over Ennis.  He was more self-possessed, and IMO, less tortured by inner demons.

[tpe]

I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.

And I agree.

I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well.
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.

Yes, you did make yourself very clear. 

I also happen to see Ennis more as an introverted and shy person rather than someone who was by nature passionate.  He was no intellectual about love, and I don't think he thought things through.  But he did feel things deeply, even though he may not be able to express these feelings passionately -- at least most of the time.  Whenever those passions surfaced, he usually broke down. 

[tpe]

I think both of them were really tired of having spent so much of their lives wasting their opportunities of being really happy with one another.This moment on the mountain,with this "little" excuse of delaying their new reunion some months more,was also the opportunity for both of them of telling each other all what they had inside themselves but that-maybe one for fear,and the one for pride-hadn't dared to say in out voice before.

Would you consider "emotional exhaustion" an apt term to descibe both of them near the end?  It is as if they had been at a stalemate for too long in a kind of war of attrition, and that any movement would have been welcome -- even if was the movement of retreat.

[babytammy7]

Well, you are right in many points.  But I'm probably confusing things here because I was refering to the scene in 1963 right before they came down BBM, and not the Last Confrontation.  Did I confuse you here?  Do my comments make more sense, in this light?

In any case, when I speak of control, I meant Jack having control over himself, and not over Ennis.  He was more self-possessed, and IMO, less tortured by inner demons.

Oh, God, you were not talking about the confrontation scene?  I am SO stupid sometimes!!!  Sorry, Thomas, of course your comment makes more sense now....    

I knew that you were talking about self control, babe. 

And I agree.

Yes, you did make yourself very clear. 

I also happen to see Ennis more as an introverted and shy person rather than someone who was by nature passionate.  He was no intellectual about love, and I don't think he thought things through.  But he did feel things deeply, even though he may not be able to express these feelings passionately -- at least most of the time.  Whenever those passions surfaced, he usually broke down. 

I think that being passionate has nothing to do with being intellectual about love or thinking things through. I think that when you are a bit intellectual about love you are a romantic (and you know that I am talking about the true meaning of the word romantic, and not about people who like reading poems to their lovers under the moon light... ), and sure Ennis was not that.
For me passionate is a person that doesn't think things through but act without thinking, impulsively, moved by their strong feelings, love, rage, fear....I think that Ennis was like that. Jack thought more things...and he was more careful. When Ennis was happy, or in lust or scared he just exploded and that's a trait of very passionate people. He didn't stop to meassure the consequences of his acts....he just acted, did what he needed to do, and sure most of the times he was not even aware of what he was doing and later he was stunned at his own behavior (reunion scene, FNIT...). Ennis put a huge amount of passion in whatever he did: loving Jack, fighting people or just working.

Just my opinion babe. 

[tpe]

Oh, God, you were not talking about the confrontation scene?  I am SO stupid sometimes!!!  Sorry, Thomas, of course your comment makes more sense now....    

I knew that you were talking about self control, babe. 

No, that was my mistake.  I should have known that you were talking about the Confrontation scene. 

I'll respond later to the second part of your post. 

[myprivatejack]

Would you consider "emotional exhaustion" an apt term to descibe both of them near the end?  It is as if they had been at a stalemate for too long in a kind of war of attrition, and that any movement would have been welcome -- even if was the movement of retreat.

You always find the right description,Thomas ¡  ( Yes,I think this could be a more than apt term to describe what they felt in FC time.I'd describe it also as a "psychological war",because each one of them "attacked" in the moment and with the weapons were going to hurt the other the most emotionally speaking.

[tpe]

I think that being passionate has nothing to do with being intellectual about love or thinking things through. I think that when you are a bit intellectual about love you are a romantic (and you know that I am talking about the true meaning of the word romantic, and not about people who like reading poems to their lovers under the moon light... ), and sure Ennis was not that.
For me passionate is a person that doesn't think things through but act without thinking, impulsively, moved by their strong feelings, love, rage, fear....I think that Ennis was like that. Jack thought more things...and he was more careful. When Ennis was happy, or in lust or scared he just exploded and that's a trait of very passionate people. He didn't stop to meassure the consequences of his acts....he just acted, did what he needed to do, and sure most of the times he was not even aware of what he was doing and later he was stunned at his own behavior (reunion scene, FNIT...). Ennis put a huge amount of passion in whatever he did: loving Jack, fighting people or just working.

Just my opinion babe. 

But sometimes, a romantic also shuts out the mind in favor of sentiment -- which is really rooted at the heart.   Would you consider Jack to be a romantic?  Dreamers and romantics  sometimes go hand in hand.   

Ennis was perhaps "cooler" --in the sense that he didn't express emotions until they boiled out -- as an explosive volcano erupts when the pressure is too great. 

But one also notes that Ennis did seem to think things a lot also -- about society and how they are to be viewed and watched.  Jack didn't seem to think much about this, and to me, it doesn't seem to show a thinker as much as it reinforces the image of an impractical dreamer.

These opposing tendencies is I think at the root of the fight on BBM. 

[tpe]

You always find the right description,Thomas ¡  ( Yes,I think this could be a more than apt term to describe what they felt in FC time.I'd describe it also as a "psychological war",because each one of them "attacked" in the moment and with the weapons were going to hurt the other the most emotionally speaking.

Yes, I think that in the Last Confrontation, they put out all the stops, and there was a recklessness in the weay they used their weapons on each other.  Most of the time, it was total psychological warfare, but in the said scene, they went out of their way to try to destroy the stalemate, a people tried to do in the trench warfare of the First World War. 

Interesting enough, they seemed to have stopped at the very brink...  Was it in time?  Or too late?

[babytammy7]

But sometimes, a romantic also shuts out the mind in favor of sentiment -- which is really rooted at the heart.   Would you consider Jack to be a romantic?  Dreamers and romantics  sometimes go hand in hand.    
 

Hey Thomas!!

Yeah, you are absolutely right about this. And, for me, dreamers and romantics are always hand in hand. There is not romanticism without dreams of love. One trait of romantics is their ability to dream high and idealize their lovers and the very notion of love, to then fall hard when they become aware of the reality. I think that’s very Jack, because he idealized that summer on Brokeback and the Ennis he met there, the Ennis of the DE (though I think that Jack was a thinker too...see below... ).

Ennis was perhaps "cooler" --in the sense that he didn't express emotions until they boiled out -- as an explosive volcano erupts when the pressure is too great.  

But one also notes that Ennis did seem to think things a lot also -- about society and how they are to be viewed and watched.  

Mmmm....you are right and still I think I disagree....

I think that Ennis didn’t think much about society and how they are to be viewed....I mean, of course he had “THAT” present the whole time, of course he couldn’t forget about what society expected from him, but I think that he behaved like that, acting like he was supposed to do, because it was what was taught to him when he was a kid, and because it was what he heard all his life. I think he didn’t give much thoughts to how society could REALLY see them, because then he could have found out with time that things are not black or white and that he had options. But Ennis didn’t even think about that, he couldn't see the choices. He just behaved how he was taught, he just only did what everybody else did, and when his little world got unbalanced his reacted in a passionate way (fighting or kissing the living lights out of Jack), again without giving much thought to his actions. I think that Ennis was a man of action, not thoughts. I think that’s why Annie P said that Ennis was a man “made of horses and fighting, his reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley’s saddle catalogue.” Also our boys never talked about sex.....and I think we all agree that Ennis was not aware of what Jack and he had was love till the shirts scene....so I think all that shows that Ennis gave little thought to his feelings and just felt, and, for me, he felt in a very passionate way.

Jack didn't seem to think much about this, and to me, it doesn't seem to show a thinker as much as it reinforces the image of an impractical dreamer.

 

And yeah, Jack is the dreamer (I so love that   ), but I think that he was the thinker too….I know that often dreams and rational thoughts don’t go hand in hand, but Jack dreams, though difficult, were not impossible or crazy. I mean, it was complicate for two men to live together back then in WY, but it was not absurd. Jack was not in love, like many romantics, with the idea of love and he was not pursuing a chimera. He just loved another human being and wanted to make a life with him, and he believed that it was possible, so, for me, it shows that he thought a lot of times about it, about the possibilities, about the things against them, about their chances. I think he had all planned. He didn’t act as impulsively as Ennis when he was challenged. He thought carefully how many steps to take at once, how far to push, so he didn’t lose Ennis. And I think he was practical, because he thought about LF to be the place to start that sweet life, and sure he was aware that living with their parents wouldn’t be as dangerous as living together alone; also he wanted to make a deal with LD so he got money to start that new life. I think he dreamed a lot, because he loved a lot, but he was no fool. He sure thought about society more than Ennis did, and that’s why he knew that two men could find a way to live together, like those men Andrew knows about who lived more than 40 years together.


So...I keep thinking that Ennis was more quiet than Jack and more careful, but he also was more impulsive and passionate. And Jack was the dreamer, and still the one who thought about their relationship and the possibilities over and over, the one who was in real contact with the world.

Now, does it make sense?  

[lancecowboy]

Great discussion, tpe, Tammy.

I agree about romantics and dreamers, and Jack.

With respect to Ennis, I agree that he is a man of action, as Tammy quoted from the short story, and that he is impulsive when it comes to his feelings. Jack is more considered when following his feelings, more patient. Waiting for twenty years is certainly patient.

However, I think Ennis is also a thinker but perhaps in different things in life, like his job as a ranch hand, as a cowboy, tracking and killing the coyote, shooting the elk, fixing the car. Ennis and Jack are just different kinds of thinkers. To fall back to our stereotypes again, Ennis thinks about guy stuff, but Jack thinks about feelings. It doesn't make Ennis more masculine and Jack more feminine, because it is Jack who takes the initiatives while Ennis responds. Ennis and Jack are different, and complementary.

Just my two cents.

[bowl_of_glow]

...I think Ennis is also a thinker but perhaps in different things in life, like his job as a ranch hand, as a cowboy, tracking and killing the coyote, shooting the elk, fixing the car. Ennis and Jack are just different kinds of thinkers. To fall back to our stereotypes again, Ennis thinks about guy stuff, but Jack thinks about feelings. It doesn't make Ennis more masculine and Jack more feminine, because it is Jack who takes the initiatives while Ennis responds. Ennis and Jack are different, and complementary.

Well said. I agree.

[atalley]

Great posts everyone!   

[tpe]

Hey Thomas!!

Yeah, you are absolutely right about this. And, for me, dreamers and romantics are always hand in hand. There is not romanticism without dreams of love. One trait of romantics is their ability to dream high and idealize their lovers and the very notion of love, to then fall hard when they become aware of the reality. I think that’s very Jack, because he idealized that summer on Brokeback and the Ennis he met there, the Ennis of the DE (though I think that Jack was a thinker too...see below... ).


Mmmm....you are right and still I think I disagree....

I think that Ennis didn’t think much about society and how they are to be viewed....I mean, of course he had “THAT” present the whole time, of course he couldn’t forget about what society expected from him, but I think that he behaved like that, acting like he was supposed to do, because it was what was taught to him when he was a kid, and because it was what he heard all his life. I think he didn’t give much thoughts to how society could REALLY see them, because then he could have found out with time that things are not black or white and that he had options. But Ennis didn’t even think about that, he couldn't see the choices. He just behaved how he was taught, he just only did what everybody else did, and when his little world got unbalanced his reacted in a passionate way (fighting or kissing the living lights out of Jack), again without giving much thought to his actions. I think that Ennis was a man of action, not thoughts. I think that’s why Annie P said that Ennis was a man “made of horses and fighting, his reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley’s saddle catalogue.” Also our boys never talked about sex.....and I think we all agree that Ennis was not aware of what Jack and he had was love till the shirts scene....so I think all that shows that Ennis gave little thought to his feelings and just felt, and, for me, he felt in a very passionate way.


And yeah, Jack is the dreamer (I so love that   ), but I think that he was the thinker too….I know that often dreams and rational thoughts don’t go hand in hand, but Jack dreams, though difficult, were not impossible or crazy. I mean, it was complicate for two men to live together back then in WY, but it was not absurd. Jack was not in love, like many romantics, with the idea of love and he was not pursuing a chimera. He just loved another human being and wanted to make a life with him, and he believed that it was possible, so, for me, it shows that he thought a lot of times about it, about the possibilities, about the things against them, about their chances. I think he had all planned. He didn’t act as impulsively as Ennis when he was challenged. He thought carefully how many steps to take at once, how far to push, so he didn’t lose Ennis. And I think he was practical, because he thought about LF to be the place to start that sweet life, and sure he was aware that living with their parents wouldn’t be as dangerous as living together alone; also he wanted to make a deal with LD so he got money to start that new life. I think he dreamed a lot, because he loved a lot, but he was no fool. He sure thought about society more than Ennis did, and that’s why he knew that two men could find a way to live together, like those men Andrew knows about who lived more than 40 years together.


So...I keep thinking that Ennis was more quiet than Jack and more careful, but he also was more impulsive and passionate. And Jack was the dreamer, and still the one who thought about their relationship and the possibilities over and over, the one who was in real contact with the world.

Now, does it make sense?  

So in a sense, the "debate" is over Ennis then, since we agree mostly about Jack. 

Ennis could certainly be impulsive and passionate -- just look at the Reunion kiss and one gets it.   But we should also note that before kissing Jack in that scene, we see Ennis looking around to see if nobody was watching.  Had he been completely impulsive, he wouldn't have cared and taken the risk -- something that I see Jack is more likely to do.  It seems to suggest that even in his state of impulsiveness, Ennis was "thinking" about the world around him...

Now, from your discussion above, I know that you won't consider this as thinking -- you would say that deep down, he really didn't care, but that he was not forgetful of what society expected them to behave.  IN a way, this is the difference between our POVs, I guess.  I tend to think that Ennis did in fact care and think about how they are viewed by society at large...

[tpe]

Great discussion, tpe, Tammy.

I agree about romantics and dreamers, and Jack.

With respect to Ennis, I agree that he is a man of action, as Tammy quoted from the short story, and that he is impulsive when it comes to his feelings. Jack is more considered when following his feelings, more patient. Waiting for twenty years is certainly patient.

However, I think Ennis is also a thinker but perhaps in different things in life, like his job as a ranch hand, as a cowboy, tracking and killing the coyote, shooting the elk, fixing the car. Ennis and Jack are just different kinds of thinkers. To fall back to our stereotypes again, Ennis thinks about guy stuff, but Jack thinks about feelings. It doesn't make Ennis more masculine and Jack more feminine, because it is Jack who takes the initiatives while Ennis responds. Ennis and Jack are different, and complementary.

Just my two cents.

This is a good distinction about "thinking", lance.  And as seemingly disparate it might sound, one can "think" about ones's feelings, as much as one "feels" one's thoughts.  These are complementary...  Feeling and thinking can be very intertwined.

[lancecowboy]

A combination of different reasons made me think of this thread again, and how Ennis was afraid to love, not just homophobia, loving another man, but also loving anyone in general.

Jack was the key that opened his heart, to allow him to love. Without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life not knowing love, how to love.

His relationship with Alma and Cassie were all superficial, going through the motions, in and out of bed, doing his duty.

His relationship with his children were deeper, but even with them, he did not know how to love or to show them his love.

As already mentioned here and else where, Ennis had difficulty with love, and all through life, love was a stranger to him, except with Jack. It's probably why he never loved anyone else, why he would never consider himself gay. Loving another man was as alien to him as loving another woman.

If Jack lost Ennis, he might have recovered and moved on. But Ennis losing Jack, was the end of the world.

In any case, Ennis was lucky that he at least met Jack. Many unlucky people go through life never knowing love, and never realizing what they don't have, thinking as they go to their grave, that they knew love because they were married, or had sex, or whatever. It is often the fear of love that lead us to misunderstand love, and never have it.

I'd like to know what Ennis was thinking about that night before SNIT, sitting in front of the fire, while Jack waited. What thinking process led him to decide that Jack was the one he could trust, that this one shot thing with Jack won't change his life forever? And of course, it did indeed change his life forever. How did he know it was the kind of change that he could accept, for a life time?

So many questions...and so few answers. It's what gets me, and PBS.

[Tony]

I'd like to know what Ennis was thinking about that night before SNIT, sitting in front of the fire, while Jack waited. What thinking process led him to decide that Jack was the one he could trust, that this one shot thing with Jack won't change his life forever? And of course, it did indeed change his life forever. How did he know it was the kind of change that he could accept, for a life time?

  Hi, Andrew!  I was thinking of this topic a few days ago, too.  The original thread derives from the events on that last day on the mountain, where Jack had acted so cavalier, and Ennis had gone off to sulk/grieve.  And then the parting scene, where neither could risk exposing their true feelings because they could not be sure how the other really felt.  Did the other consider it all a passing friendship, a sexual fling? Both had found love, and maybe in the weeks they would have had if the summer hadn't ended early, they would have worked that out.  But there was, I had thought, a fear of telling the depth of their feelings, for fear they were not returned, and then, past that, a fear of love itself, which always alters a person's life.

 I've always been surprised that the other forums are in a coma on this issue.  It's all about AP's (IMO, mis-fired) central theme of rural homophobia. They have no explanations for Ennis brooding, and the fight itself, which seemed to arise from Jack's unexplained playfulness at a time Ennis was confronting severe loss.  But then, (if you can believe this), they also have a solid movement towards a Dark Ennis theory: wife-beater, sado-masochist, ignorant brute. Which I believe is the inevitable result of their ignoring those scenes we have explored here.  It's like, did they see the same movie? Ennis, unable to love? Phew.

  But what caused me to remember this thread and topic were the love stories of Jane Austen. Yeah, I'm outting myself as an incurable romantic, just by admitting I greatly react to her various books. But, so what?
 Anyway, Persuasion was on Masterpiece Theater and there it was !!!.  The two main characters could not openly admit their love for each other, for fear of rejection!  And there are those recurring themes in her stories: coming to grips with the reality of love and then fear of not being loved back.
 Of course, Ennis and Jack had had sex, and hooked up for a couple of months, but still, putting aside the modern liberties of behavior there, they still had the exact same problems of Jane Austen's lovers.
  In Austen's novels, there are happy endings whereby the lovers can finally rejoice and wallow in reassuring each other that they had always loved.  I think, Andrew, in your noticing of the changes in Ennis in the Diner scene, those were the same epiphanies that had occurred in Austen's lovers, and so I think your theory is all the more supportable. 
 Only, there was no happy ending for our two heroes. AP was having none of the traditional loves, and moved to tragedy, leaving Ennis only the final epiphany of the shirts. Deprived of finally admitting love to the beloved, as had been given to others, he was left to stroking and whispering to the shirts, not the beloved one, himself.  Fear of love, fear of admitting love, is, I think, standard, but has different endings.

[lancecowboy]

 Hi, Andrew!  I was thinking of this topic a few days ago, too.  The original thread derives from the events on that last day on the mountain, where Jack had acted so cavalier, and Ennis had gone off to sulk/grieve.  And then the parting scene, where neither could risk exposing their true feelings because they could not be sure how the other really felt.  Did the other consider it all a passing friendship, a sexual fling? Both had found love, and maybe in the weeks they would have had if the summer hadn't ended early, they would have worked that out.  But there was, I had thought, a fear of telling the depth of their feelings, for fear they were not returned, and then, past that, a fear of love itself, which always alters a person's life.

Now that you mentioned it, I'd like to know what went through the mind of the sulking Ennis, too. Those two moments must have been the deepest thoughts that Ennis had had all his life, as deep as the thoughts he had after what his father showed him back when he was nine.

As you may guessed, I am not of the camp that has Ennis consciously thinking he was in love with Jack. It's why he didn't know what happened to him in the alley with 'em terrible stomach cramps, until years later, maybe just before the reunion. Even then, I think he was only conscious of the good sex they had, and not discovering the meaning of love. As we discussed already, Ennis probably never truly experienced love in any form, not from his parents, and especially not from his brothers and sisters. He didn't know what love was, not even when it was starring him in the face. It was why Ennis looked so astonished in the diner when confronted with Cassie's love.

So in my opinion, it was not fear of rejection that kept Ennis from Jack. It may well be what kept Jack from Ennis, however. Jack knew something was special with Ennis. It's why he stole the shirt. Jack knew what love was, from his Ma and from all 'em times when he rode more than bull. He knew the times with Ennis was different from all 'em other times. He may have interpreted Ennis's fear of love as rejection, or aloofness or whatever and prompted Jack to be more cautious. But I am more interested in what went on with Ennis, up there on the hill, the tiny figure sitting alone on the grassy knoll, and there on the log by the fire, deep in thought, or perhaps deep with feelings.

I've always been surprised that the other forums are in a coma on this issue.  It's all about AP's (IMO, mis-fired) central theme of rural homophobia. They have no explanations for Ennis brooding, and the fight itself, which seemed to arise from Jack's unexplained playfulness at a time Ennis was confronting severe loss.  But then, (if you can believe this), they also have a solid movement towards a Dark Ennis theory: wife-beater, sado-masochist, ignorant brute. Which I believe is the inevitable result of their ignoring those scenes we have explored here.  It's like, did they see the same movie? Ennis, unable to love? Phew.

This is news to me since I don't go to the other forums after the initial search and found this here valley of peace and friendship. I am glad you've been venturing further afield and bringing back news of stories from afar.  It's the nature of great art that many people with diverse points of view will interpret and see it differently. There are those who don't appreciate Brokeback Mountain at all, seeing only a gay cowboy movie, and then there are those who see it only as a gay morality tale. I think it is the unique gift of this forum that our open and frank discussion without cynicism yielded a different and brighter insights in he psyche of Ennis, one that is closer to the interpretation of Annie Proulx and most of all, Heath. I cannot see Heath creating a Dark Ennis. Even the Joker in the Dark Knight had a spark of light, in his identification with Batman. Heath would be mindful of Adam Sutton when he created Ennis. I think sometimes people see a bit of themselves in what they project onto others, and it is to Brokeback Mountain's credit, that it is indeed great art, to inspire such diverse interpretation.

  But what caused me to remember this thread and topic were the love stories of Jane Austen. Yeah, I'm outting myself as an incurable romantic, just by admitting I greatly react to her various books. But, so what?

You are not alone, I think. I can't get myself to stay awake through the novels, but I find myself watching those movies over and over and over.

 Anyway, Persuasion was on Masterpiece Theater and there it was !!!.  The two main characters could not openly admit their love for each other, for fear of rejection!  And there are those recurring themes in her stories: coming to grips with the reality of love and then fear of not being loved back.

Gosh, is that Persuasion? Are you referring to the scene when the woman confronted the man about his meddling to drive apart her sister and her true love? It's been a while since I watched those movies. I loved that scene, I think, between Elizabeth and Darcy, in that rain storm, soaked and exposed, and speaking their deepest thoughts to each other, and when Darcy finally confessed his love. I will have to try reading the novels again.  

 Of course, Ennis and Jack had had sex, and hooked up for a couple of months, but still, putting aside the modern liberties of behavior there, they still had the exact same problems of Jane Austen's lovers.

I dare say we can generalize further and say there is an universality of love and problems of love. It's what drove us all here, obsessed with what we saw in Brokeback Mountain, and obsessed with finding answers to questions that were never asked, much less answered.

  In Austen's novels, there are happy endings whereby the lovers can finally rejoice and wallow in reassuring each other that they had always loved.  I think, Andrew, in your noticing of the changes in Ennis in the Diner scene, those were the same epiphanies that had occurred in Austen's lovers, and so I think your theory is all the more supportable.  
 Only, there was no happy ending for our two heroes. AP was having none of the traditional loves, and moved to tragedy, leaving Ennis only the final epiphany of the shirts. Deprived of finally admitting love to the beloved, as had been given to others, he was left to stroking and whispering to the shirts, not the beloved one, himself.  Fear of love, fear of admitting love, is, I think, standard, but has different endings.

Yeah. Happy endings. It's what drives us to fan fics, and Chrolli and other stories when true love find happiness.

Even when we know it's not real, we are happy to suspend our disbelieve, if only for a moment.

But the questions remain, what went through the mind of Ennis by the fire before SNIT, and as your reminded us, when he sat on the grassy hill, the lone figure watching this man that became a part of him, packing up the scene of the happiest moments in his entire life, ready to call an end to an idyllic summer?

Will we ever know?

[Tony]

But the questions remain, what went through the mind of Ennis by the fire before SNIT, and as your reminded us, when he sat on the grassy hill, the lone figure watching this man that became a part of him, packing up the scene of the happiest moments in his entire life, ready to call an end to an idyllic summer?

Will we ever know?

   These, of course, were the work of the screenplay writers.  On DC forum, someone wrote to Diana Ossana about a question and she was kind enough to send him an answer.  But she did point to the screenplay itself, which has something like a brief commentary, or directions, that may help with the answer, here.  I don't have a screenplay, so, am no help there.
  Andrew, you say you are of the school that Ennis didn't know "this thing" was love. Maybe he didn't know it cognitively (too fearful), but perhaps he was wrestling with feeling it?  And it was far too strong to confront?
  Also, if he did know he was in love, that would not necessarily undermine your Diner epiphany theory as, there, what he might have been discovering was that Jack could love him, for himself.  Not for sex. He was, IMO, kind of suspicious about that being Jack's down-deep motive. So when Cassie said girls don't fall in love with fun, he just might have seen a glimpse of Jack's real love, and so have been freed to confront his own. VERY Jane Austen-y.

 The question you've asked, quoted above, is probably worthy of its own thread, and it would probably mutate into the question of "What did Ennis know, and When did he know it?".  There might be an old thread on that general subject, but I doubt it would be as specific as we might want. But, on any thread, I guess all we could ever do is unravel the puzzle by keeping at it, until we had a viable answer, which many might find close enough.

 

[lancecowboy]

  These, of course, were the work of the screenplay writers.  On DC forum, someone wrote to Diana Ossana about a question and she was kind enough to send him an answer.  But she did point to the screenplay itself, which has something like a brief commentary, or directions, that may help with the answer, here.  I don't have a screenplay, so, am no help there.

I dug out the old screen play and here is what it says.

SNIT:

EXT: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, WYOMING: CAMP: TENT: NIGHT: 1963:

The setting sun leaves the sky ablaze in orange and purple.

ENNIS sits by the fire, alone. Hears coyotes in the distance.

JACK is inside the tent.

ENNIS, pensive, glances over towards the tent. Decides.

Gets up.

Goes to the tent.

Interesting reading this again, I noticed the mention of the orange and purple sky, which is different from the movie, but foreshadows the dozy embrace. Also the mention of "pensive, glances over", which reminds me of the first scene when Ennis was leaning against the trailer, and stealing surreptitious glances over at Jack. What was he thinking then?

And here is the scene before the fight on the mountain.

EXT. BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, WYOMING: CAMP: MORNING: 1963:

Their tent is struck, camp gear piled high: they have packed to leave.

JACK is tightening his saddle. Looks up.

ENNIS sits up on a hill, alone.

JACK takes his lariat, heads up the hill towards ENNIS.

Again, it's interesting to note that the movie did not show Ennis helping Jack with packing up the gear, only the final moment as Ennis sat up there on the hill. It's difficult to say how long Ennis sat up there, from this description alone. If he didn't help Jack pack, then he could've been sitting there thinking for a long while. If he was just resting after helping with the gear, it might have been only for a short time, perhaps not long enough to get any sense of the parting of the ways. It's more poignant to think Jack came up the hill interrupting Ennis's train of thought, and led to the fight. It's also more likely, if Ennis had been exercising with the gear, that he forgot his own strength, knocking Jack over.

Although I like the movie's implication that Ennis sat there alone on the hill a long while, enough to make his thoughts more interesting, I can also see the reason for the short story's version of events. I think, artistically speaking, I prefer the movie simply for the view of Ennis on the hill - that tableau is a work of art, the way Heath played Ennis to the max, showing the pensive brooding Ennis, prompting the question, what's he thinking?

 Andrew, you say you are of the school that Ennis didn't know "this thing" was love. Maybe he didn't know it cognitively (too fearful), but perhaps he was wrestling with feeling it?  And it was far too strong to confront?
  Also, if he did know he was in love, that would not necessarily undermine your Diner epiphany theory as, there, what he might have been discovering was that Jack could love him, for himself.  Not for sex. He was, IMO, kind of suspicious about that being Jack's down-deep motive. So when Cassie said girls don't fall in love with fun, he just might have seen a glimpse of Jack's real love, and so have been freed to confront his own. VERY Jane Austen-y.

Yes, he was aware of the feelings alright, this thing with no reins. But he had no labels, no handles, no reference to what these feelings were. He thought they were just sex, just friends having a bit of fun. Jack knew better, he knew how bad it got when they were apart. What Jack didn't know was how bad it got for Ennis, too, when he was alone drinking beer after beer in the bar, ignoring everyone, and everyone leaving him alone, except Cassie.

I agree with you that the epiphany in the diner was not only about recognizing his own love for Jack, but also, a glimpse of a hope that perhaps, if Cassie could love him, that perhaps Jack too could love him, and that this thing they had for twenty years was more than just sex, more than just camping buddies jumping each other a few times a year. It is why I believe at that moment, and later when he sent that post card to Jack, he was ready to re-consider the sweet life, of building a cow and calf operation with Jack.  

The question you've asked, quoted above, is probably worthy of its own thread, and it would probably mutate into the question of "What did Ennis know, and When did he know it?".  There might be an old thread on that general subject, but I doubt it would be as specific as we might want. But, on any thread, I guess all we could ever do is unravel the puzzle by keeping at it, until we had a viable answer, which many might find close enough.

I don't know if I want to start a new thread, and re-open old PBS. Even now discussing this for a little bit, I feel being drawn again like in 'em early days.

The only reason why I came back to this thread, was the epiphany of the meaning of love is not always clear to everyone, so it is not always a fear of love that keeps people apart, but simply, the inability to love, as Ennis was, because he never knew it, and so was incapable of loving, even when confronted by love, from Jack and from Cassie.

That is perhaps the true core of the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, that the man who could not love, when awoken to the power of it at the diner, find that the love of his life was snatched away.  

Okay, enough of that. I was just thinking out loud, wondering what was Ennis thinking. Thanks for all your comments, Tony. As always.  

[mimi1996]

 

...sorry, i just tought I'd add that...

But no, I really do have something to say! :D

I really do believe that Ennis loved Jack and cared deeply for him, he just didnt know how to express and show it (perhaps because he had never been taught or shown the same kind of love). The tragedy of the story is, though, that Jack WAS a very open, loving person who always showed his true feelings and showed Ennis his love far more than ennis ever showed it to him. They were complet opposites, which made their love all the more difficult and complex.
Having said that, I do believe that both characters feared loving one another, although Ennis far moreso than Jack, purely because of their nature and personalities.

I'm writing this in my history class   so I should probably get back to my essay on The Stolen Generations now...

bye bye to all
xx
 

[Tony]

I really do believe that Ennis loved Jack and cared deeply for him, he just didnt know how to express and show it (perhaps because he had never been taught or shown the same kind of love).

  Aha! That's what I was trying to put together:  Yes, Ennis was aware he was in love with Jack.  But he had zero experience in safely showing love. We could reasonably assume that his father, who approved of the murder of Earl, frowned on any display of love as "sissy".  Real men didn't love (?).
  I don't, then, believe Ennis was "the man who could not love".  His every choice spoke of love, from SNIT, to handling the babies when they were sick, to waiting so pitifully for the Reunion that day, to cracking up over Jack's complaints, to aching at Cassie's words. Ma Twist was a good judge of character.  She saw the man who COULD love, and had loved....her son.  I doubt anyone else showed up to visit the Twists over Jack's death.
  Thanks, Mimi - he just didn't know how to show the depth of his love. Safely. Without fear of being the puppet of someone else who might not love him as much as he had loved.
  His daughters, Cassie, Ma Twist, and Jack, were the ones who knew Ennis could love more than most people: he just had been battered into never showing that love easily, but they knew it was there.
  Maybe his brother beat up on him all the time because he was a sensitive little boy. To survive that battering, he had had to learn to fight, yes, but also to bury deep within, the loving  heart that so provoked an ugly world.

 Come to think of it, maybe Old Man Twist had faced the same nightmare: "I know where Brokeback Mountain is...." . But, maybe he never survived the condemnation of love, and became abusive and withdrawn.  He sure seemed to understand Ennis. And maybe hated him for never having caved in.

[lancecowboy]

Cowboys don't cry. 

Ennis was the iconic cowboy, complete different from the rodeo that was Jack.

More than that, Ennis, while trapped behind the walls of his own and society's making, also wanted to love and be loved.

It is this desire that I believe helped him make the decide to get up, and to go to the tent at SNIT. It was not just sex, but to be held, to be desired, to be needed, wanted, and enjoyed. This thing with no reins was the key that unlocked the doorway in his wall.

Although Ennis had little experience with love or being loved, he was a quick study. From Cassie to Ma Twist, once he recognized and learned from sources of love, he was quick to do whatever it took to make it work. Unfortunately, it took him too long to recognize the good thing he had going with Jack. 

[jackster]

Great discussion here. Not much of import to add, except the meaning of “love” can take many, many, forms and expressions, just like “gay”. What one person may think of as love might not even register to another. Maybe this is one reason Ennis & Jack were able to stick it out so long, they had somewhat similar internal ideas of what “love” meant and they could feel that “vibration” from each other almost from the moment they first shook hands. Not identical for sure, but innately similar. Love at first sight, yup, we just won’t say a goddamn word about it.

Cowboys don't cry. 

Ennis was the iconic cowboy, complete different from the rodeo that was Jack.

oh yeah, Crying . . .

You’ all certainly know this, but I’ll repeat it - Ennis is the big tough cowboy we see cry (or at least tear up) seven times in the movie (though only once in the SS).

LC: Ennis the iconic cowboy, yup - to which I’ll add - Ennis the LACONIC cowboy, huh?