Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[Tony]

    Hi-Welshwitch--glad it was all hype.  And yes, Jack is Dionysian, a real life force, especially after a few drinks.

    Anyway, am having some "issues" with this thread.

         1)  looked back, and found its origin in Manhattengirl's thread-"Should Ennis take some of the blame?"  In some early replies,
             there were some references to fear of love, in general, rather than gay love, and even from contributors here who have had
             troubles, now, separating the two.  I think this was already on the minds of some, but vaguely.....

         2) have discovered that the same day I began wretchedly long posts was the same day the heat came on (electric) and got a
             sinus infection and relentless fever.  Saw, on MG's thread, a missing post.  Was wondering if it's possible to delete a couple
             of my posts?  That way, anybody coming in late would have a smoother flow.

         3) we may have passed up developing some good directions.  Jackster's careful post, mostly probing the difference between SS
             and fillm in development of love comes to mind.  Flowerchild's sense of a bubble of isolation on the mountain.  And one am
             working on, society as the third character (from LJN).

  A lot of good stuff, and I hope this thread can be salvaged.  Meanwhile, will take me two aspirins, and call meself in the morning, or whatever.

[Tony]

    Hmmmm.....this post, if not read correctly, could get me into the doggie house.  Probably will.  Am pursuing society as the 3rd character in BBM.
We are comfortable with seeing that society only in terms of being homophobic, but I would say that society feared ratifying the humanity of
others and further, (here goes trouble), we are ourselves, can be as guilty as them. 
   They didn't see their coldness because they only saw glimpses, whereas we were given, in the film, the extended focus.  Think about it...

   Aguirre.  The villain.  Yet he didn't rush in with a tire iron, after seeing their sexual horseplay.  Nor did he tell it all over the town.  As much as
disapproving of the sex, he was angry at....the lack of attention to their jobs.  A few harsh words (to which he was prone), and he dropped it.

  The rodeo clown.  Unlike some others, I instinctively see in those scenes, contempt for Jack for being friendly---too quick.  Heck, that clown
coulda BEEN gay, and the reaction would have been the same, for gay bars contain a million such brush-offs (assuming, of course, it wasn't
dreamy Jake/Jack).  We are afraid of people who come on too strong.

   The guy who called Jack a piss-ant.  Maybe we don't use those terms, but please don't tell me you have never once in your life had a
bad reaction to someone.

  Ennis being dumped by his family, as inconvenient.  May God help us all, we dump people during our lives. We do.

   To get your attention-the attention of a community that seeks more tolerance....US, as the 3rd character in other's lives.....
You all know about Matthew Shepherd.  Did you know the only mass slaughter of gays happened....here in Norfolk, in the early 1970's?
A gunman opened fire in a bar downtown, killing 9-12 gays.  It was news, briefly, but forgotten.  Why?  The gays were black, they were
transvestites (of whom the local gay community didn't feel comfortable defending) and even the transvestite community didn't rally because
the victims were old, not snazzy and good-looking, etc.  Earl and Rich--here in Norfolk.  It was also hushed up because the gunman tracked
to the Norfolk Police.  He was their mascot, their pet.  And, no one pursued the factor of rage in the police as bars had just been legalized,
and there were no more....pay offs for protection from the vice squad (which I personally witnessed).  Nobody, even gays..cared.

   How about Senator Larry Craig?  Trashed by the GOP, his friends. But also abandoned by the gay community for his falseness.  Who lost?
We did.  The arrest was illegal.  Tapping a foot on the floor? Get real. He was left to rot, because...we don't like him.

  In BBM, we had the advantage of seeing what those around Jack and Ennis didn't see....the full love story.  And  THAT separated us from
that society there, homophobic, yes, but also afraid to look closer and love and ratify and accept, unless at a scheduled pace.  But we still
have, in us all, a coldness, at times, which is necessary to get on with life.  We can't wallow in everybody elses troubles, and we are no
longer sweet, little children--we must defend, as did the rodeo clown, against those who don't fit our formula.

  The challenge of BBM, then, may well be to reduce the fear of love, that exists in all of us, not just in a homophobic area, but where
we can reasonably do so, in all areas of life.  We'll never get there 100%--we're human.  But in looking at society as the 3rd character in
BBM,  we do well to lighten up a little, and remember, we are the 3rd character in so many other lives.  I don't think the rodeo clown was
homophobic or hateful.  At this risk of everybody's wrath---we have all been that clown at one time or another.    Tony.

[LuvJackNasty]

    LJN---I  think the quote itself is a bullseye hit, but am of a different mind as to what it means.  You suggest maybe being owned or branded,
and that could well be so.  But what jumped off the screen at me was the first part: "I seen they cut me different..."  The shrinks say we guys
identify our very selves with our--equipment.  However else the sentence goes, those words, to me, suggest Jack felt he was made differently
from other men.  Certainly from his father. Cut differently=made differently.  And so could never fit in with the world his father represented.   It's
a stretch, to use only the first half of the sentence, but that was my immediate reaction.
   It fits in well with always being the outsider and always being rejected.  Until Ennis.  There his life-force, his liveliness, was a medicine to a
young man also always left out.  I know the killing of Earl affected him, but have always felt the casual discarding of him by his brother affected
him greatly.  For if what's left of your family don't want you--you ain't got nothing, you are nobody, long before you complain that it's because
of Jack at their last time together.
   Two very discardable males, then.  One feeling that he was "cut differently" and maybe that could explain to a child why he felt unwanted.
The other seeing Earl dead-for loving, gay love, sure, but for loving (he admired them--please, everybody, remember how he admired them-
"they waz tough, old birds..") and then discarded, for no good reason that holds up, by his only remaining kin, none of whom wanted him.
   Long before they met, the isolation of each had set in.  Ennis was stoic and accepting.  Jack was---a dreamer, and would not accept this
coldness around them.  That was what caused Ennis to love him.  What he saw in Ennis was as you have pointed out, the first male to accept
him for himself. Wow, was the stage set well when they met outside Aguirre's trailer.

Very well said- all of it. 

I do think the circumcision aspect was just to show how Jack was "different".

They were both the outsiders looking in so to speak and that's what helped bond them together. Perhaps maybe the first positive male influence either had in their young lives. I do see Jack as the dreamer but also as nurturing which is what Ennis more than likely needed even if he wasn't aware of it himself. Then you have Ennis who responded to Jack and all of his silliness but that goes right back to Ennis accepting him as he was. One of my favorite scenes is when Ennis finally opens up and starts talking- the smile on Jack's face at breaking down those walls and having this man open up to him just makes me happy. I always giggle there when Ennis says "Hell thats more words than I spoke in a year" and then just keeps on chatting and then teasing Jack about the rodeo'ing- it's just a great moment between the two of them.

[LuvJackNasty]

    Hmmmm.....this post, if not read correctly, could get me into the doggie house.  Probably will.  Am pursuing society as the 3rd character in BBM.
We are comfortable with seeing that society only in terms of being homophobic, but I would say that society feared ratifying the humanity of
others and further, (here goes trouble), we are ourselves, can be as guilty as them. 
   They didn't see their coldness because they only saw glimpses, whereas we were given, in the film, the extended focus.  Think about it...

   Aguirre.  The villain.  Yet he didn't rush in with a tire iron, after seeing their sexual horseplay.  Nor did he tell it all over the town.  As much as
disapproving of the sex, he was angry at....the lack of attention to their jobs.  A few harsh words (to which he was prone), and he dropped it.

  The rodeo clown.  Unlike some others, I instinctively see in those scenes, contempt for Jack for being friendly---too quick.  Heck, that clown
coulda BEEN gay, and the reaction would have been the same, for gay bars contain a million such brush-offs (assuming, of course, it wasn't
dreamy Jake/Jack).  We are afraid of people who come on too strong.

   The guy who called Jack a piss-ant.  Maybe we don't use those terms, but please don't tell me you have never once in your life had a
bad reaction to someone.

  Ennis being dumped by his family, as inconvenient.  May God help us all, we dump people during our lives. We do.

  In BBM, we had the advantage of seeing what those around Jack and Ennis didn't see....the full love story.  And  THAT separated us from
that society there, homophobic, yes, but also afraid to look closer and love and ratify and accept, unless at a scheduled pace.  But we still
have, in us all, a coldness, at times, which is necessary to get on with life.  We can't wallow in everybody elses troubles, and we are no
longer sweet, little children--we must defend, as did the rodeo clown, against those who don't fit our formula.

  The challenge of BBM, then, may well be to reduce the fear of love, that exists in all of us, not just in a homophobic area, but where
we can reasonably do so, in all areas of life.  We'll never get there 100%--we're human.  But in looking at society as the 3rd character in
BBM,  we do well to lighten up a little, and remember, we are the 3rd character in so many other lives.  I don't think the rodeo clown was
homophobic or hateful.  At this risk of everybody's wrath---we have all been that clown at one time or another.    Tony.

No wrath coming from this way. We are all human and not without our faults and I think you are right- we've been that third character at one point or another- I know I have.

I think you are pretty much spot on with Aguirre- he was a businessman. I do wonder if that had anything to do with calling them down early from the mountain or if the storm was legit. He didn't want to hire Jack for a third summer and I don't know if that had anything to do with the count not being what he'd hoped for or if it was his disdain for what Jack and Ennis were doing he said "Ain't got no work for you" and then after Jack asked for Ennis he made the other comments. I tend to think it was a mix but more from a business stand point as opposed to homophobia.

I was worried with the rodeo clown when he was pointing back after Jack offered to buy him the beer and made eyes at him. Again I'm not sure if it was homophobic because he surely could have gathered up a bunch of good ole boys and handled "business" if that were the case.

You know in typing this out I'm starting to wonder if we were meant to see that at least from Jack's perspective, no one had tire irons at the ready- there were two cases right there where Jack was pretty much outed and yet no one came after him. Maybe that adds another layer to his thinking that it would be okay to ranch up- that people might suspect but not everyone is ready to kill. I know he takes Ennis's fears to heart but he has managed to get further than the coffee pot and is exposed to a little more.

[welshwitch]

this is going back to something said ealier in the thread, about the isolation of Jack and Ennis on BBM. Some time back i was oursuing an idea about the American creation of small closed worlds meant to encapsulate the sort of Utopia that the new country had promised. The National/State parks systems are obvious examples, representing as they do the green bosom of the New World as Gatsby's sailors may have seen it. Then there are the historical reproductions like Williamsburg, Plymouth Plantation and Sturbridge representing the mythical settler past and beyond those city parks and the whole idea od rus in urb, appropriate to an agrarian democracy, then theme parks,places where the world is kept out ( eg by the berm around Disneyworld) so that what's inside is pure pleasure, then the expositions ( like the Centennial and Colombian expositions) representing the possibilities of the US in terms of what it could invent/produce. then the latest ( to my mind debased) manifestation in shopping malls, of a world of abundance.
BBM seems to me just another example of that - when you admit that the dream of the New World as the city on the hill, the great beacon to humanity, isn't realisable, so you try to recreate fragments of it by isolating different aspects in which people can forget all the rest that's outside. But of course outside doesn't go away and in the end you are forced back into it, and a realisation that the dream is just that. You can of course go back to Bryce Canyon or Six Flags or one of the Gallerias, but the second time is never the same, often slightly disappointing in a way that's not easy to define - maybe because after being outside you can see the limitations of the original and the disconnect where the two worlds join, or the contrast between the ideal and the reality. To me that's what Jack and Ennis found when they ( symbolically and literally) came down from the mountain.

[tpe]

this is going back to something said ealier in the thread, about the isolation of Jack and Ennis on BBM. Some time back i was oursuing an idea about the American creation of small closed worlds meant to encapsulate the sort of Utopia that the new country had promised. The National/State parks systems are obvious examples, representing as they do the green bosom of the New World as Gatsby's sailors may have seen it. Then there are the historical reproductions like Williamsburg, Plymouth Plantation and Sturbridge representing the mythical settler past and beyond those city parks and the whole idea od rus in urb, appropriate to an agrarian democracy, then theme parks,places where the world is kept out ( eg by the berm around Disneyworld) so that what's inside is pure pleasure, then the expositions ( like the Centennial and Colombian expositions) representing the possibilities of the US in terms of what it could invent/produce. then the latest ( to my mind debased) manifestation in shopping malls, of a world of abundance.
BBM seems to me just another example of that - when you admit that the dream of the New World as the city on the hill, the great beacon to humanity, isn't realisable, so you try to recreate fragments of it by isolating different aspects in which people can forget all the rest that's outside. But of course outside doesn't go away and in the end you are forced back into it, and a realisation that the dream is just that. You can of course go back to Bryce Canyon or Six Flags or one of the Gallerias, but the second time is never the same, often slightly disappointing in a way that's not easy to define - maybe because after being outside you can see the limitations of the original and the disconnect where the two worlds join, or the contrast between the ideal and the reality. To me that's what Jack and Ennis found when they ( symbolically and literally) came down from the mountain.

I think this very much mirrors what Ang Lee said in NYC: about BBM being a kind of Eden for both of them, and where the absence or near absence of the fear to love is akin to innocence and a state of grace.

[Tony]

     Hi, LJN!   Those scenes with the rodeo clown are another example of subtlety that can cause us to see what we want to see.  Chameau
has a picture of Jack staring directly at Ennis' crotch, in a tech support thread.  The picture is great fun, but could also be Exhibit A that Jack
was overtly seductive.  However, in real life, women and men size each other up and, if filmed, with a freeze-frame, could make anybody look
overly interested.  Saw this on t.v., so, it's not from me.
    As for that being part of a movie, rather than real life, I think if Jake wanted to convey that, he would have.  Looks to me from that, and
other scenes picked out as crotch watching, that Jake took the choice of being natural in his eye-movements,  as they were identical to what
I have noticed, after seeing that t.v. show about human behavior.  In fact, as Jake takes a swig of whiskey before dancing a jig, the once-over
is male-challenging rather than male-interested.  Jake's acting replicated natural behavior, and I think it was a deliberate choice.
   The rodeo clown scenes, I've always felt, from a LOT of experience in taverns, showed a brush-off of someone too needy for friendship,
who is coming on too strong.  I saw guys doing that all the time in straight bars, and then, yeah, a very slight put-down of the other guy,
as if he were gay.  Just like that scene.  Male politics and behavior control.
   The concept of Jack regularly cruising, just isn't there, for me.  Randall cruised HIM, and Jack only gradually caught on to the implications,
sittting outside the Moose Lodge.

  Welshwitch, you are right about those bubbles in the U.S., idealized locations. Flowerchild went there, as far as a bubble on the mountain,
and you saw that, too.  When Ang Lee called the mountain their Eden, tpe caught that and beat me to the punch.  That's got to be accepted,
now, I would think, as the artist/interpreter, the director, finally gave us something to go with.

[lamusica]

This discussion has been very interesting all along, but it's this bubble concept that intrigues me.  Is this something American only?  I tend to think it is a part of the human condition.  We all are looking for our own personal nirvana, and particularly looking to share it with someone special to us.  People tend to travel far and wide looking for that isolated spot; rich people purchase islands to live on. or penthouses in the middle of busy cities which raise them above the masses in their own private aeriea.
    I agree that that was the role of the mountain.  Where else could Jack and Ennis have met in such isolation and amid such beauty?
    And they never went back.  They certainly could have returned to BBM, but never did.  It had fulfilled its purpose -- that of being the catalyst that brought them together.  From that point on, they could only go forward -- never backwards in time.  Whatever was ahead of them had to be faced in its own time.  That meant in society, hostile or uncaring, brutal or accepting.

     To get back to the fight: I have always thought of that fight as the time when both men totally realized they had taken a step into a situation from which they could not extract themselves.  Even if they were never to see one another again, they knew they were joined in that moment in that place.  Ennis, as usual, to me, could not accept what he had done -- been intimate with a man.  He knew he had done it, maybe he didn't regret it completely, but he knew it had changed him and he wasn't sure he welcomed that change.  Jack never understood this.  He didn't know what had hit him -- what in the hell had gotten into Ennis?  He had been playing; Ennis turned mean.
    Back at the truck when they were parting, Jack still didn't know why Ennis had hit him, and he really didn't let that change anything as far as his feelings for Ennis.  He wanted to repeat their experiences of the summer.  Ennis, of course, figured this was a one shot thing.  Ennis still had not come to grips with what had happened to him and its permanence in his life -- that didn't come until he was walking away from Jack and broke down in the shed.  Well, as usualy, just my opinion.

[Tony]

   And a very well-reasoned one at that. Thanks, Lamusica.  About the bubble issue, yes it is everywhere, but I do see Welshwitch's point, that
this has been developed much more heavily, in the U.S.  As far as this relating to Ang Lee's Eden remarks, well, tpe developed them further, and
you yourself saw exactly what both meant-a reference to an isolated place of beauty, a heaven, and, as tpe said a place of innocence, of knowing
no behavior as sin.
   The fight on the mountain, however, I will always see as Ennis' rage against wrong signals sent by Jack.

[tpe]

  Welshwitch, you are right about those bubbles in the U.S., idealized locations. Flowerchild went there, as far as a bubble on the mountain,
and you saw that, too.  When Ang Lee called the mountain their Eden, tpe caught that and beat me to the punch.  That's got to be accepted,
now, I would think, as the artist/interpreter, the director, finally gave us something to go with.

One of the reasons why I so much love the beautiful scenes up in BBM is the gradual whittling away of their fears and inhibitions towards each other.  As I looked at it, Ang Lee seemed to suggest that the two of them were in some primeval age of innocence.  That their sexual and emotional awakening constituted the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and Aguirre (a jealous god?) spying on their games of love brought about their immediate expulsion from Paradise, from which they would never return.

[tpe]

This discussion has been very interesting all along, but it's this bubble concept that intrigues me.  Is this something American only?  I tend to think it is a part of the human condition.  We all are looking for our own personal nirvana, and particularly looking to share it with someone special to us.  People tend to travel far and wide looking for that isolated spot; rich people purchase islands to live on. or penthouses in the middle of busy cities which raise them above the masses in their own private aeriea.
    I agree that that was the role of the mountain.  Where else could Jack and Ennis have met in such isolation and amid such beauty?
    And they never went back.  They certainly could have returned to BBM, but never did.  It had fulfilled its purpose -- that of being the catalyst that brought them together.  From that point on, they could only go forward -- never backwards in time.  Whatever was ahead of them had to be faced in its own time.  That meant in society, hostile or uncaring, brutal or accepting.

***

This is certainly common with Americans here in the US.  For some reason, I have always thought that this is because most people here cling to some idealized notion of independence, wherein the fear of "other people" is embedded deep within. 

To live and to love the way they see fit always seems tro be connected with some imagined Utopia in the American phsyche.   Perhaps the vastness of the land has something to do with it.  The Whitmanesque/Thoreauesque desire to live apart from a "corrupting" society -- to "go back to nature", I suppose, is much easily imagined if one can get lost in some vastness.

I feel that this is what Ennis and Jack embodied in BBM.  They had somehow found themselves by being lost in the vastness of what surrounded them.  There was nothing to fear but themselves.  And perhaps it is upon their discovery that they also realized that one cannot go back before the loss of innocence.

[manhattangirl]

This is certainly common with Americans here in the US.  For some reason, I have always thought that this is because most people here cling to some idealized notion of independence, wherein the fear of "other people" is embedded deep within. 

To live and to love the way they see fit always seems tro be connected with some imagined Utopia in the American phsyche.   Perhaps the vastness of the land has something to do with it.  The Whitmanesque/Thoreauesque desire to live apart from a "corrupting" society -- to "go back to nature", I suppose, is much easily imagined if one can get lost in some vastness.

I feel that this is what Ennis and Jack embodied in BBM.  They had somehow found themselves by being lost in the vastness of what surrounded them.  There was nothing to fear but themselves.  And perhaps it is upon their discovery that they also realized that one cannot go back before the loss of innocence.

To be isolated from the rest of the world, to have create a world all your own that no one can touch, enter, invade, can also can be prison, no matter how beautiful it is, vast, or wide.  And to be on Brokeback even after it's done its job, and brought them together, the inability to get beyond that was now impossible for each, but more so for Jack than for Ennis. 

Jack tried but couldn't if Ennis was not able or willing to do so. In the final confrontation, when Jack said to Ennis "all we got is Brokeback Mountain, f#@king all, everything is built on that",  was it fear in his voice when said that or acceptance of the fact Ennis wasn't going anywhere.

Jack knew long before Ennis even realized what they had, and what it meant, the fact that Brokeback bound them forever, and so he wanted his ashes scattered there, he knew it was the one place in all the world that Ennis would return to.  But like all of Jack's plans, nothing came of it.

[welshwitch]

The idea of the isolated paradise, the other Eden, does back to the original settlers, who saw what they were starting as differentr, new, a shining example to the old world. a city on a hill, a beacon - all that. It was reinforced at the time of independence, I think, and sonce that there's been an increasing sense that many of the promises haven't been realised and the dream is unachievable. Some of the reactions to this have been through trying to create tiny bits of the former glory - hence the desire to restore part of
the Appalachian wilderness along the Skyline Drive, even by removing what's growing there but isn't native and replacing it by the originals, to create an impression of an untouched area - something the same is true of the national parks, which are managed (some would say over-managed) partly to look as though they are untouched. (That all relates to the unspoiled natural world - things like shopping malls relate to the theme of abundance and theme parks to the idea of happiness and enjoyment.) It's interesting that BBM draws so heavily on the locations and colors of what appears to be unspoilt nature and the old agrarian past.
In the relationship of Jack and Ennis ( and this is part of the dissention before leaving the mountain) it also draws on the notion of the independent individual; Ennis I think always sees hmself in this way, which is why he can't accept loans or hel, until near the end where he allows Jack to hold him - I sometimes see that as an acknowledgement that in real life the individual can't isolate himself and live a fulfilled life.

[tpe]

To be isolated from the rest of the world, to have create a world all your own that no one can touch, enter, invade, can also can be prison, no matter how beautiful it is, vast, or wide.   And to be on Brokeback even after it's done its job, and brought them together, the inability to get beyond that was now impossible for each, but more so for Jack than for Ennis. 

Jack tried but couldn't if Ennis was not able or willing to do so. In the final confrontation, when Jack said to Ennis "all we got is Brokeback Mountain, f#@king all, everything is built on that",  was it fear in his voice when said that or acceptance of the fact Ennis wasn't going anywhere.

Jack knew long before Ennis even realized what they had, and what it meant, the fact that Brokeback bound them forever, and so he wanted his ashes scattered there, he knew it was the one place in all the world that Ennis would return to.  But like all of Jack's plans, nothing came of it.

Very beautiful point, MG.    I would only hasten to add that in Jack's comment during the confrontation scene, he was trying to say that they carried BBM inside of them, as much as BBM held them captive even after the summer of 63.    It was what made their love flower, and it was also the source of that fear to love that inevitably broke them.

[tpe]

The idea of the isolated paradise, the other Eden, does back to the original settlers, who saw what they were starting as differentr, new, a shining example to the old world. a city on a hill, a beacon - all that. It was reinforced at the time of independence, I think, and sonce that there's been an increasing sense that many of the promises haven't been realised and the dream is unachievable. Some of the reactions to this have been through trying to create tiny bits of the former glory - hence the desire to restore part of
the Appalachian wilderness along the Skyline Drive, even by removing what's growing there but isn't native and replacing it by the originals, to create an impression of an untouched area - something the same is true of the national parks, which are managed (some would say over-managed) partly to look as though they are untouched. (That all relates to the unspoiled natural world - things like shopping malls relate to the theme of abundance and theme parks to the idea of happiness and enjoyment.) It's interesting that BBM draws so heavily on the locations and colors of what appears to be unspoilt nature and the old agrarian past.
In the relationship of Jack and Ennis ( and this is part of the dissention before leaving the mountain) it also draws on the notion of the independent individual; Ennis I think always sees hmself in this way, which is why he can't accept loans or hel, until near the end where he allows Jack to hold him - I sometimes see that as an acknowledgement that in real life the individual can't isolate himself and live a fulfilled life.

Yes, in spite of the fear to live and love the way they saw fit, they couldn't stop loving each other.  I think their need for each other surpassed the fear, even if the fear left them stunted.  Et in Arcadia ego (in the Waugh sense), no?

[Tony]

     Well, finally overcame Fear of the SS, and went through it carefully, rather than casually.  And will pass along what I saw.

     Annie uses the technique of detail-realism to lure the reader into the story, including smells and sights.  Very focused.  The film went the
other way, with broad vistas and use of sound.  But her realism, an ash-tray, the scent of urine, diapers, etc., does not cover the issue
mentioned here about circumcision.  She went too long on that and so some theme or other was meant, and not just realistic detail.

    And the film and SS are dead opposites, in presenting the love itself.  The film front-loads the love, with idyllic scenery, SNIT, and more
healing of each other on the mountain.  A really careful reading of the SS shows Annie, using the device of flashback, casually shocking the
reader with a sexual affair, some emotions, and then, at the end, dropping back for a hefty punch in the gut with the unexpected development
of a fuller, deeper look at the power of the love, which hadn't been really central, before.
   But the film. even front-loading, still had enough in reserve, from Annie, (the shirts), to manage its own final punch.

   A re-reading of the Dozy Embrace can really support the theme here.  She describes it as non-sexual, and Ennis glad he wasn't facing Jack
more from fear of admitting Jack was his only real love, rather than some same-gender issue.  And there are a few lines towards the end
really supporting the fear of love itself more than any mere gay issue.

  The final line of Welshwitch's post was a combination of practical observation and raw beauty.  Won't use it to support my theme.  Her statement
stands on its own and shouldn't be borrowed.

[Tony]

    Manhattengirl--hey, dere.  Jack realizing Ennis wasn't going anywhere---yeah, that's what shows up in that transformation scene, where
we see Jack's face dreamy with love, and then, later, switching to harshness, resentment, as he sees Ennis leaving for what turns out to be
the last time.
    Dunno if it had to be that way.  Myself, I don't see Ennis as permanently paralyzed.  Maybe another confrontation, maybe life events---
growing older....we should never automatically rule out that Ennis, had Jack lived, could not have found a way to be more to Jack.  He changed
when he went to the tent, SNIT, he changed when he agreed to a long-running affair, so, it's not an absolute that he could not change
yet again.  Somehow.  Once Jack applied full pressure, Ennis never really had the chance to respond, in his own way, gradually.

[manhattangirl]

    Manhattengirl--hey, dere.  Jack realizing Ennis wasn't going anywhere---yeah, that's what shows up in that transformation scene, where
we see Jack's face dreamy with love, and then, later, switching to harshness, resentment, as he sees Ennis leaving for what turns out to be
the last time.
    Dunno if it had to be that way.  Myself, I don't see Ennis as permanently paralyzed.  Maybe another confrontation, maybe life events---
growing older....we should never automatically rule out that Ennis, had Jack lived, could not have found a way to be more to Jack.  He changed
when he went to the tent, SNIT, he changed when he agreed to a long-running affair, so, it's not an absolute that he could not change
yet again.  Somehow.  Once Jack applied full pressure, Ennis never really had the chance to respond, in his own way, gradually.

Tony you're absolutely right on that point.  My problem has always been with this story, was it a gradual change in Ennis  or control of Jack,  Jack stirred that deepest part of him.  At every level of this relationship, Ennis lead, Jack followed.   From the FNIT to the Reunion, especially the reunion,  Jack would have been grateful for a handshake and a slap on the back to see his friend, but when Ennis kissed him, that set the stage for all that followed.  Jack had no choice, so the bitterness in Jack as Ennis was steadfast in his position, for me this is understandable. 

In the ss, when I read it, I can't help but think that Ennis stands back and watches the transformation of Jack, but doesn't necessarily attributed to him.  This love he had for  Jack was like a some separate entity, like the love for Jack was a third person in the relationship, we see it, but he just doesn't get it, until Jack's death when Ennis and his love merges.

Does any one understand?     

 

 

[tpe]

     Well, finally overcame Fear of the SS, and went through it carefully, rather than casually.  And will pass along what I saw.

     Annie uses the technique of detail-realism to lure the reader into the story, including smells and sights.  Very focused.  The film went the
other way, with broad vistas and use of sound.  But her realism, an ash-tray, the scent of urine, diapers, etc., does not cover the issue
mentioned here about circumcision.  She went too long on that and so some theme or other was meant, and not just realistic detail.

    And the film and SS are dead opposites, in presenting the love itself.  The film front-loads the love, with idyllic scenery, SNIT, and more
healing of each other on the mountain.  A really careful reading of the SS shows Annie, using the device of flashback, casually shocking the
reader with a sexual affair, some emotions, and then, at the end, dropping back for a hefty punch in the gut with the unexpected development
of a fuller, deeper look at the power of the love, which hadn't been really central, before.
   But the film. even front-loading, still had enough in reserve, from Annie, (the shirts), to manage its own final punch.

   A re-reading of the Dozy Embrace can really support the theme here.  She describes it as non-sexual, and Ennis glad he wasn't facing Jack
more from fear of admitting Jack was his only real love, rather than some same-gender issue.  And there are a few lines towards the end
really supporting the fear of love itself more than any mere gay issue.

  The final line of Welshwitch's post was a combination of practical observation and raw beauty.  Won't use it to support my theme.  Her statement
stands on its own and shouldn't be borrowed.

I think one felt the fear of love more in the film than in the ss, no?  In the story, the love was almost matter-of-fact.  I certainly agree with you about the differences between the two.

[tpe]

Tony you're absolutely right on that point.  My problem has always been with this story, was it a gradual change in Ennis  or control of Jack,  Jack stirred that deepest part of him.  At every level of this relationship, Ennis lead, Jack followed.   From the FNIT to the Reunion, especially the reunion,  Jack would have been grateful for a handshake and a slap on the back to see his friend, but when Ennis kissed him, that set the stage for all that followed.  Jack had no choice, so the bitterness in Jack as Ennis was steadfast in his position, for me this is understandable. 

In the ss, when I read it, I can't help but think that Ennis stands back and watches the transformation of Jack, but doesn't necessarily attributed to him.  This love he had for  Jack was like a some separate entity, like the love for Jack was a third person in the relationship, we see it, but he just doesn't get it, until Jack's death when Ennis and his love merges.

Does any one understand?      

I think I do.  It certainly ties with part of what I said in the above post: that Ennis "stands back", as you say it.  You do feel that up until the last, it felt like some separate organism, and that it was rather more of "disinterest" than fear of love.  Is this correct?

[Audrey twist]

Very beautiful topic   

[Tony]

    Manhattengirl, your mention of the reunion scene grabbed my attention, and am beginning to think its contents have not been fairly
explored.  It doesn't fit the standard theory of Ennis as repressed and unable to change.  In fact, the scene shows ENNIS breaking EVERY
rule of caution and grabbing Jack, almost publicly, and kissing him, in town, not on the mountain.  Jack responds almost with anger, and gives
a look like---you finally admit it?---and shoves him back to kiss just as hard and admit his own love.   Look at the brief reaction on Jack's face.
So---Ennis can't change?  Ennis is repressed, completely?  I think we have seen Ennis hijacked to fit convenient theories sympathetic to
the need for real change in a homophobic culture.  His character is not so cardboard--there is more to him.  He should not be used to fulfill
agendas, however decent and good those agendas are.
   By the way, in the SS, his reference to "this thing" that comes over them and could get them killed, turns out not to be the sex.  He was
referring to the reunion scene, explicitly, as an example of where they could lose control of their emotions in public.  It's there, in the SS.

  Tpe, yeah, like you, I see Ennis carrying his love separately, having internalized it.  Again, in the SS, there is support that in the Dozy Embrace,
he was glad he wasn't facing Jack, because he was afraid of the inside treasured love in direct contact with the physically present beloved.

  After studying things more closely, lately, am embarrassed at some of my previous posts, and yet, am more certain than ever of a few of
my conclusions.   I hope the minority opinions so many of us have are never lost.  I see there are a lot of guests that visit this forum, and
I hope they never feel uneasy at joining formally, because all issues are settled and their views would be ignored.  It isn't so....but I do hope
the tolerance for minority opinions never erodes.

[Tony]

     Hi, Audrey Twist---was typing my post the same time you were.  Thanks for saying hello.  There's some disorganization to this thread
owing to the clumsy start I made, but the others have salvaged it.  Hope your opinion stays the same, and maybe you'll add to the others, as
there's plenty of leeway for any observations.

   Manhattengirl-more clumsiness from me.  The last post I made went off on Ennis' being used for agendas.  You've always kept an open mind
and yet always said what you had to say.  Wasn't referring to you.  It was your post that reminded me of that scene, and off I went.

  Sorry to all.  Am in a snit (uncapitalized), as Heath is doing his next film mostly in Vancouver and that means.....Lance gets ALL the good
luck.  Not fair!!!!  But, uh....we all better be nice to him if we're going to get any details.  I will start.  Lance, you are the perfect Brokie,
radiating charm, good looks, and intelligence,  etc., etc., etc.  And do you have an, uh----telephoto lens for your camera?

[welshwitch]

Subtle, Tony, very subtle.

[Tony]

     Doesn't hurt to try.

[lancecowboy]

     [...]

  Sorry to all.  Am in a snit (uncapitalized), as Heath is doing his next film mostly in Vancouver and that means.....Lance gets ALL the good
luck.  Not fair!!!!  But, uh....we all better be nice to him if we're going to get any details.  I will start.  Lance, you are the perfect Brokie,
radiating charm, good looks, and intelligence,  etc., etc., etc.  And do you have an, uh----telephoto lens for your camera?

  You are such a charmer, Tony. Jack fr@#$ing Twist has nothing on YOU!

No, I don't have telephoto lenses but if you are buying me a pair, I'd appreciate it and promise to put them to good use. 

No, seriously, I am totally against paparazzi not even friendly fans. Celebrities are people, too, and they deserve their privacy to do their best work.

I am happy and content with my DVD of Heath in the role that I love best of all - Ennis Del Mar. When I get a chance to meet him in person, like those truly lucky few who met Ang Lee in NYC, I will be content with an autograph of the DVD and book. Well, a couple photos with my favorite sexiest cowboy wouldn't hurt either.   

[manhattangirl]

   Manhattengirl, your mention of the reunion scene grabbed my attention, and am beginning to think its contents have not been fairly
explored.  It doesn't fit the standard theory of Ennis as repressed and unable to change.  In fact, the scene shows ENNIS breaking EVERY
rule of caution and grabbing Jack, almost publicly, and kissing him, in town, not on the mountain.  Jack responds almost with anger, and gives
a look like---you finally admit it?---and shoves him back to kiss just as hard and admit his own love.   Look at the brief reaction on Jack's face.So---Ennis can't change?  Ennis is repressed, completely?  I think we have seen Ennis hijacked to fit convenient theories sympathetic to
the need for real change in a homophobic culture.  His character is not so cardboard--there is more to him.  He should not be used to fulfill
agendas, however decent and good those agendas are.
   By the way, in the SS, his reference to "this thing" that comes over them and could get them killed, turns out not to be the sex.  He was
referring to the reunion scene, explicitly, as an example of where they could lose control of their emotions in public.  It's there, in the SS.
  Tpe, yeah, like you, I see Ennis carrying his love separately, having internalized it.  Again, in the SS, there is support that in the Dozy Embrace,
he was glad he wasn't facing Jack, because he was afraid of the inside treasured love in direct contact with the physically present beloved.

  After studying things more closely, lately, am embarrassed at some of my previous posts, and yet, am more certain than ever of a few of
my conclusions.   I hope the minority opinions so many of us have are never lost.  I see there are a lot of guests that visit this forum, and
I hope they never feel uneasy at joining formally, because all issues are settled and their views would be ignored.  It isn't so....but I do hope
the tolerance for minority opinions never erodes.

Ennis, Jack, and the "thing".  Tony, you wrote so beautifully of how these two men came to be who they are, now what made that "thing" possible between them?  The "thing" for me wasn't sex but more about the love, or am I wrong.   Ennis was fill with that the "thing" when his had Jack in his arms again, Jack who lived for the "thing" returned again and again all those years. 

 "When that thing comes over us again, at the wrong place, the wrong time, we're dead".   How terrible it is to be in fear of giving a look, a touch, a smile to your lover, and think it could cause your death.  Or was it the love itself?

What was that fight on Brokeback then?  And what was the fear?  Tony,  help me to understand. 

[aintfoolin]

Hi, back from lurking in a corner, but was catching up on this great thread and I'm totally riveted to all  the very well thought out interesting posts for sure. Wow, great topic Tony. I'm amazed that after all this time , this film classic brings forth such passion from my fellow Brokies. I'm learning so much here.


 I feel it was to Ennis, also a question of : How much of himself was he willing to forego, to give up for this "thing" so wonderful and new to him.  Yet consumed so much of inner self.  And I don't feel it was anything Jack did in particular that prompted Ennis to be down on his knees, physically sick  and crying ,...other than introduce Ennis to a part of himself that both frightened him yet somehow fit and completed him as a person.

 I also don't believe that the realization of what had happened hit him out of blue like a bolt of lightening either. From the moment Jack informed him that the party on BBM was over, and tyhat Aguirre was pulling the plug,  Reality smacks Ennis in the face, hard. He has found finally  a necesseary freedom on BB, and now it's being snatched away like a starving man's plate of food., and for no good reason that he could see.  He starts to prepare himself for the inevidible.  It's so upsetting, he can't even bring himself to help Jack dismantle the camp, too final for the moment.

 Jack, as usaul tries to be the strong one for Ennis's sake, but he is also very disappointed in the abrupt ending to thier little "Eden"  Ennis  turns cold and angry towards Jack when Jack offers him the loan.  Jack knows damn well it's not a matter of the money.. that Ennis's anger is targeted at Aguirre's decision to pull the plug upsetting the routine that both he and Ennis had come to love. Ennis  disappears up onto the hill to contemplate the end of his life with the one he loved and get on with his promised nupituals to Alma.  Quite a switch, since I feel he now knows Jack, and life with him, better than he knows his future wife in many ways!!
 He tries to harden his heart and stay quiet about it, , but it turns to anger instead, especially when Jack, all knowing, figuring misery needs no company,  goes to him and tries to allieviate some the disappointment  but  innocently delivers the final blow to a seething Ennis. ( "It's time to get going cowboy"). Ennis was not trying to hear this, did'nt want his misery expressed out loud, his punch, symbolic of that and all that lay ahead for him  and all he was leaving behind, or has to attempt to leave it behind.

Jack had him heart and soul. without Jack , love is  all strange again.  At this point, he realizes his father was  all wrong. That homosexuals were  not monsters and not fit to live amongst "normal " societyfolks.  Jack was  his "Earl" and he was sweet, kind, and loving among his many attributes.
 The way Earl felt for Rich and v/v was happening to him with Jack on BBM. An isolated, perfect stage set for them to establish their love. Befitting of the natural progress that was allowed to take place. I think it's came down partly as a matter of control. or loss of it for  Ennis ,

 I feel  he enventually came to terms with the feelings he had for Jack, his undeniable need for him overcame any denial in that sense, but it seems to me to come from way back, Back when homophobic fear. through actions and words indoctrinated into his mental shaping and molding. Therefore we must look at these two men as indiviuals first, their make ups  and what contributed to them being the way they are in personality.

Both had harsh, strict upbrings, Ennis loosing his parents at such a young age., and Jack coming up on isolated LF with an unloving, abusive father. When they got together, they brought with them, all the baggage of past life experiences. Jack, headstrong and sensitive, there, below the surface , his own fear., ( fear of rejection) folded his cards when the stakes got too high for Ennis, before his  game was finished, only to try at winning again and again. He no doubt returned from trips, ( The divorce scene) frustrated and hurt, but always returned, ready to lay his heart on the line again.

 Once in the game the Fear of Love turned them every which way but loose. Fear of rejection, shame and miscommnication ruled their love. More like little or no communication really. Jack never verbally heard " I love you" from Ennis, only felt and assummed it. and Ennis never heard it from Jack either. The "why" and "why not" of this matter is another thread, but  Jack  eventually went from "when do I show up to WHY should I show up" , Randall and Mexico standing in for what he really needed.  Finally with no more chips in front of him, all he's left with is a wing and a prayer with alot of hope on the side.


In the meantime Ennis is having major problems even getting Totally in the game itself. He is a wounded soul, part of him feeling his love for Jack is wrong, the other part never feeling anything so right. I don't feel they had a fear of love, but a fear of expressing it fully and freely once they came down from the mountain. The shirt Jack stole was symbolic of every milestone they crossed up on Brokeback. Ennis , not having many, this one he wearing every time Ennis took a major step forward to learning to love Jack.
 I wonder sometimes as the years went by and Jack visited LF, did he go to the shirts in remembrance of happier times, or did he find it too painful to look at them hanging there instead of the real thing (Ennis) standing there with him. I agree with Jackster in his post above who said in so many words that when Ennis found the shirts ,the light bilb came on in his head finally and he had to say, " Damn I really loved you Jack" Death could no longer be proud, Jack had the last say after all and Ennis damn well knew it then.

  I find it sappy, but I like to believe had Jack lived and had an established  sweet life with Ennis by some miracle, that Jack would, after  many years  would show Ennis the shirts, say on their 50th anniversay year or another special occasion, ie: birthday etc... just as he had saved them,  his "embracing"  Ennis,  for better and for worse. THIS would have surprised Ennis in a sweet ,thoughtful way, Jack's way, and melted Ennis heart like nobody's business, but that's a fanfic..lol  Sorry, long post, but this thread being worthy of the passion...well I plead guilty. My 2 cents ..or 10 cents, whatever.  Thanks.

 

[lancecowboy]

Ennis, Jack, and the "thing".  Tony, you wrote so beautifully of how these two men came to be who they are, now what made that "thing" possible between them?  The "thing" for me wasn't sex but more about the love, or am I wrong.   Ennis was fill with that the "thing" when his had Jack in his arms again, Jack who lived for the "thing" returned again and again all those years. 

 "When that thing comes over us again, at the wrong place, the wrong time, we're dead".   How terrible it is to be in fear of giving a look, a touch, a smile to your lover, and think it could cause your death.  Or was it the love itself?

What was that fight on Brokeback then?  And what was the fear?  Tony,  help me to understand. 

Is it fear of love, or is it fear of SHOWING love?
The question reminds me the haunting simple lines from the trailer...

It was a friendship that became a secret.

There are lies we have to tell.

There are truths we can't deny.

When faced with these haunting lines in his future,
Ennis chose to hide behind his fortress,
Jack wants to pursue his sweet life.
I was Ennis...

To have courage is not to have no fear...
Courage is to have fear, but live life anyway...

Thanks for all the wonderful insights in this topic, Tony, MG, tpe, ... everyone 

[aintfoolin]

 I feel  it was not a fear of love, but a fear of committment of love. Ennis was not one to change much about his routines or mindsets and Jack was asking that he change both. I think he not only hadn't  the courage or inclination to defy society and co-habitate with Jack.

 Jack was'nt talking about "playing house" in which case,  a whole series of challenges and changes had to take place first,  physically, mentally, and socially. Ennis would face some major changes that he nor Jack were ready for. Ennis is a very private "loner" type, at his basic core.
 He figures that Jack, being Jack could not live in isolation as he is very comfortable living. Eventually Jack would want friends, aquaintances etc... and that involves people knowing the nature of their relationship!

This is just one of Ennis fears, let alone him mentally  picturing him and Jack always living with the fear of a posse coming to hang them both from the nearest tree on the plains. To him Jack's dream is a nightmare to Ennis. He just wasn't ready for it and would'nt  be any time soon. Again, don't feel thay feared love itself, but  every thing that a dare to society would entail. Ennis is convinced that one or the other would "slip up"  and they'd be killed or seriously injured.

 Whispers and rumours, questions and social ties  would force the issues ....  BUT... having said that,  in the end, Ennis without a doubt had to answer an important question of himself. Had he had it to do all over again, knowing  if had he been with Jack would he still be alive? Was all the fears worth loosing Jack over?
  If, and it's  a huge if, someone could get him to talk, and present him with the question Jack alive ? or fear of the tireiron? , knowing what he knows now if it meant having Jack back, alive and well,,, ? forget about it. all the above thinking would be for nil.
 I think he he would tell them a good sawed off shot gun and a couple mean doberman guard dogs might do the trick. Every one has a right to self-defense in America. Even "queers." , and from what I saw Ennis aint a bad shot.  Blame it on 1963 rural politics and homophobes in that time....and now. Sadly,he'd learned a lesson a little too late....MHO.