Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[Tony]

     Will start off this theme by pointing out that, whatever our personal opinions about the sexuality of Ennis and Jack, both of them defined
themselves as straight.  Rightly or wrongfully, that's how they saw themselves.  And there's something weird about straight guys-they can
have sex with each other as long as there's no love, and they can love each other as long as there's no...sex.
    Straight guys have always had sex with each other, whether in prison, or as drunken teen-agers experimenting.  Am not saying it's something
constantly going on, but, and I know this can be threatening to women and to gays, straight guys do have a history of fooling around.  With no
love.  Similarly, straight guys can love another male (although this differs from country to country) and never consider sex.
   Ennis and Jack had both, on Brokeback Mountain.  FNIT had just....sex.  They could have flipped it off as doggy-dog stuff.  But it went to
the second round....SNIT, with lovemaking....KISSING!!!!  They mixed the two and broke the code.  And they knew it.
  What I am moving towards, then, is a breach between the SS and the film.  The SS is, according to the author, about repressed homosexuality.
Am so over that, with reference to the film, because there, I really believe we see them comfortable, or comfortable enough, with their doings,
so long as no one else knew about it.  And for me, that means they entered into the mainstream of all great love stories, with the trauma there
being, always, who loved the most.
  And so to that eternal theme, fear of giving oneself, when not loved in return.  The fight on the mountain occurred after Ennis became withdrawn
and moody, while Jack was so very casual about them splitting up.  That fight may well have been rage as neither would admit openly to love.
Neither knew enough.  Jack didn't see Ennis retching with grief and rage.  And Ennis didn't know he was so loved, his very shirt had been stolen
as a treasure.
   Am sorry for the long introduction, but that is where I would like to go, if anyone is willing.  Past fear of being gay and more to fear of love.
Whether you are loved back.  Anything would be fair game, but it might be interesting to go over again, where they communicated love and
where they failed to do so.  Have suggested before, that Ennis never fully understood he was loved until he found the shirts.  Why?
  If this goes anywhere, I hope it goes to---missed signals, wrong timing, and, of course, to the fear of love, itself, as too great a risk.

[LuvJackNasty]

Well my interpretation of the whole "I'm not queer" "me neither" exchange was that Ennis didn't want to admit it and that Jack just went along with it, thus his response- the first denial in a long line to come. I don't think that Jack was playing on that last day on the mountain- Well not playing in the fun sense- he was trying to lighten the mood. I think Ennis took it harder initially because he knew beyind any doubt that that was it for the two of them- he was going to marry Alma. I think Jack held out hope that after the summer they had just spent together would have changed Ennis's mind. I'm sure he wasn't happy about coming off the mountain early.

Now onto the shirts-I think Ennis knew he was loved or at the very least that Jack cared a great deal for him just by the simple fact of the distance Jack drove to have those few meetings a year, the fact that Jack was the one who found him after 4 years and though we weren't privy to every meeting I'm sure it's safe to say that they had great times. I think Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until the shirts- something he took and kept for 20 years. The fact that Jack needed something tangible of Ennis is powerful in itself. And look when he finds them- I'm not really talking about Jack being gone here- they had that big fight, Mexico had been brought out into the open and Old Man Twist had just told Ennis that Jack was going to bring another man to Lightning Flat- doubts, hurt and confusion must've been strong in Ennis. But that was all erased when he saw that no matter what was said and what was done (by both of them over the years) there were those shirts. Jack didn't discard them- no matter what, Ennis was in his heart. I think Ennis knew Jack loved him and deep down that he loved Jack but it wasn't until the shirts and Jack being gone that he was able to admit it to himself- "this thing" was love.

And later when he's talking to Junior about the wedding the wording of his question always sticks out at me- "This Kurt fella- he loves you?" My question would have been- "Do you love him?" But at any rate Ennis sees that his daughter, at the same age he was when he fell in love with Jack, knows she is loved, she can name it. I think there is a double layer of sadness there- that Junior can say it out loud for the world to hear when he couldn't (meaning society wouldn't allow it) and also that he was too afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made a difference. But I have no doubt that Jack knew that Ennis loved him.

[jackster]

Fear of Love. Right on Tony, very important throughout BBM. My view of this may be a bit different. I feel when Ennis finds the shirts, yes he discovers the depth of the love Jack had for him. But more importantly, Ennis has an epiphany of sorts and discovers the true depth of the love he had for Jack. He has been unable to see this or accept this part of himself until this discovery. He now sees who he is, what he is, and I feel, acknowledges this. Thus he is able to take the shirts and carry the shirts downstairs in front of the Twists and in the light of day "ask" to take his lovers shirt, something no “fishin’ buddy” would do. He is no longer afraid of this love, his love for Jack. “The love that dare not speak its name.” My view.

[FlwrChild]

Well said, LJN and jackster. I think you really got to the heart of it.

First, as to whether they both saw themselves as straight:

I agree that Jack most likely said "Me neither" more to reassure Ennis than because he really thought of himself as straight, which is also supported by his behavior thoughout the years. Ennis, I think, desperately wanted to think that he was straight, but had fears that he wasn't, as is evidenced by some of his remarks about people "knowing" just by looking at him.

And I think part of what made them comfortable up on Brokeback was a sense of total isolation from the world, that nobody knew about them and they were in a place almost out of time and separate from the rest of the world.

I absolutely agree that this enters the mainstream of all great love stories. Regardless of sexual orientation. Love is love, and being denied it is tragic under any circumstances. I think in regard to fear of love, though, that orientation is very important here (not even orientation itself but the perception of it). Because I think the root of Ennis's fear of acknowledging love for Jack was specifically because he was a man, and Ennis couldn't bring himself to know, consciously, that he loved a man. That was their main obstacle. The mixed signals, bad timing, other responsibilites, etc. were all born of that issue.

And yes, I think that finding the shirts showed Ennis not only that he was loved, but how much he was loved, how steadfastly, and how long. That, coupled with the shock of the loss of Jack, knowing that he would never see him again, helped unlock his acknowledgment of his own love for Jack in return.

[Tony]

    Am kinda embarrassed the topic introduction was so long, and yet the two replies got past all that garbage and into the territory am trying for.

     LJN, I know it may be quoting you out of context, but: "....he was afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made
a difference."  I have been hoping for some movement past fear of being gay (the standard formula) to fear that wrecks any great love, fear of
not being loved back to the extreme level of the Immortal Beloved (and that is how I will always see their two loves, as The Great Love most of
us never know).  It  was  some time before I began to see Ennis, going to sit, alone, on that hill, as a tragic turning point-he was admitting his
love the only way he knew how but rage flowed, the fight, when Jack unwittingly sent the wrong signal, making light of their leaving.  You're
right, Jack was already in love, and doing the best he could--but he sent the wrong message.  He provoked rage, and later, retching, by what
seemed a cavalier attitude.  So we have Ennis crippled by fears, maybe justified, despite all of Jack's later trips, but, LJN, wasn't JACK crippled
by some fears of his own?  On that mountain?  Didn't he fear rejection, despite Ennis' brooding?  Jack was hiding a lot.  Am saying they were
BOTH afraid, not of gay issues, but of the unexpected depth of their love.  Jack hid it, when he hid the shirt.

  Jackster, that list of scenes you did, and their meaning, on another thread, was IMO a triumph for this forum.  Get people challenged, and that's
when the really definitive work gets done.  Am hoping to borrow some of the content and much of the sense of an outline, that particular
technique, in looking to develop the fear of love, missed opportunities, and wrong signals sent.  As far as the epiphany of the shirts, had never
once considered it was a double whammy and that, as you have said, Ennis finally saw how much he himself had loved Jack. But it was  just that.
And yet, on this topic, Fear of Love, it became safe to love, only when....it was no longer a viable threat to losing one's own self.

  Am not doing very well. Am trying to explore how things went wrong because the love was so great, it was threatening, especially with so
many mixed messages between the two. Two heavy hitters have weighed in (and you both are) and done well, and am still trying to get
the topic better defined.  Anywhere anyone goes with this is fine, but somehow I need, myself, to get past a generality--that they feared the
greatness of their love more than any mere social repression issues--to the specific scenes and words that fostered doubt or failed to
reassure and thereby kept the fear of love---ongoing, until too late.

  Both replies got past my lack of clarity and am grateful for that.           Tony.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I will have to come back here and post later.  What I've read so far is very interesting and reigniting some PBS feelings.  Keep posting people. :\'(

[Tony]

    Oops, FlowerChild, you were posting as I was typing.  I see your point, that orientation was an issue and I can see the theory that it was
THE issue that paralyzed Ennis.  But some part of me still says Ennis had chucked that out the door when he went to the tent the second night,
for love.  He feared being seen as gay, or being gay, but IMO his love was too great for that to be the source of paralysis.  He'd gotten past
a helluva lot when he came to kissing and loving on Jack.  No repression there.  No self-denial.  
  So have looked elsewhere.  If Ennis had come to some terms with the relationship, and he had, then that would leave, then, the other fear that
 
his love was not returned at the same level.  In "Limerance and Love", by Dr. Dorothy Gray, the issue of who loves whom more is central to
the development of love problems. Might have the title backwards-can't remember. And in the great love stories, all of them, doubt is what
causes paralysis.  Even "The Sound of Music".  "West Side Story". "Romeo and Juliet."
    I know you have seen the fear of being seen as gay as central, but, FlowerChild, go with me a little further if you can, that what applies
to those great love stories must to some degree be equally present here.  Fear of Love, itself.
is at the core of all problems.  Fear of love comes from doubt in its being returned, at fear of losing one's own identity.

[lancecowboy]

Thank you, Tony, for asking a really good question, yet again. And  LJN for your clear-sighted observation of Ennis and Jack. Discovering the two shirts for Ennis was monumental to Ennis for two reasons, IMO. You pointed out the one reason, that Ennis did not realize how much he was loved by Jack until that moment, and how faithful was Jack's love for him. I think the second reason why discovering the two shirts made a change in Ennis was the fact that he understood that Jack's Ma KNEW, and ACCEPTED them. For the first time in his life, Ennis felt accepted by someone who is not Jack, who has no reason to accept him. The combination of the two emotions, of being loved, and of being accepted, broke down the walls that kept him isolated for so long. Finally, Ennis understood that he was WORTHY of love and acceptance. All those years when he was hiding behind that fortress, he thought he was unworthy of being loved, of being accepted, as Adam Sutton pointed out in his book, and in his interview, that he hated himself for the feelings that society taught us were wrong. When he found those shirts, he realized, he FELT the love that Jack had preserved even after death, that Jack's Ma gave him as a gift out of love for her son, and he finally believed in his heart, that he was worthy, that he was good enough to be loved, to be accepted. He stood a little taller coming down those stairs. He walked a little lighter across that kitchen floor with the shirts cradled in his arm. Ennis was a new man with confidence, self-acceptance, self-respect, compared to the man who knelt in front of Jack saying, "You are the reason I'm like this, I am nothing, I am no where."

Ennis didn't think anyone, not even Jack could seriously love him, except for fun, until Cassie told him that love is not just about fun. Then finding the shirts was the evidence that convinced him, not mentally, but emotionally.

He asked Alma Jr because he wanted to make sure his daughter will not marry without love as he did, but that she would have someone who loves her, as he did. And looking out the window, when she replied that "Kurt loves me" Ennis was thinking "Jack loved me" and regretting all those times when he didn't get to say it. There was no question that he would go to her wedding. By that time, Ennis was living Brokeback Mountain, without regrets.

Thanks Tony, LJN. I love this topic.

Well my interpretation of the whole "I'm not queer" "me neither" exchange was that Ennis didn't want to admit it and that Jack just went along with it, thus his response- the first denial in a long line to come. I don't think that Jack was playing on that last day on the mountain- Well not playing in the fun sense- he was trying to lighten the mood. I think Ennis took it harder initially because he knew beyind any doubt that that was it for the two of them- he was going to marry Alma. I think Jack held out hope that after the summer they had just spent together would have changed Ennis's mind. I'm sure he wasn't happy about coming off the mountain early.

Now onto the shirts-I think Ennis knew he was loved or at the very least that Jack cared a great deal for him just by the simple fact of the distance Jack drove to have those few meetings a year, the fact that Jack was the one who found him after 4 years and though we weren't privy to every meeting I'm sure it's safe to say that they had great times. I think Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until the shirts- something he took and kept for 20 years. The fact that Jack needed something tangible of Ennis is powerful in itself. And look when he finds them- I'm not really talking about Jack being gone here- they had that big fight, Mexico had been brought out into the open and Old Man Twist had just told Ennis that Jack was going to bring another man to Lightning Flat- doubts, hurt and confusion must've been strong in Ennis. But that was all erased when he saw that no matter what was said and what was done (by both of them over the years) there were those shirts. Jack didn't discard them- no matter what, Ennis was in his heart. I think Ennis knew Jack loved him and deep down that he loved Jack but it wasn't until the shirts and Jack being gone that he was able to admit it to himself- "this thing" was love.

And later when he's talking to Junior about the wedding the wording of his question always sticks out at me- "This Kurt fella- he loves you?" My question would have been- "Do you love him?" But at any rate Ennis sees that his daughter, at the same age he was when he fell in love with Jack, knows she is loved, she can name it. I think there is a double layer of sadness there- that Junior can say it out loud for the world to hear when he couldn't (meaning society wouldn't allow it) and also that he was too afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made a difference. But I have no doubt that Jack knew that Ennis loved him.

[LuvJackNasty]

   Am kinda embarrassed the topic introduction was so long, and yet the two replies got past all that garbage and into the territory am trying for.

     LJN, I know it may be quoting you out of context, but: "....he was afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made
a difference."  I have been hoping for some movement past fear of being gay (the standard formula) to fear that wrecks any great love, fear of
not being loved back to the extreme level of the Immortal Beloved (and that is how I will always see their two loves, as The Great Love most of
us never know).  It  was  some time before I began to see Ennis, going to sit, alone, on that hill, as a tragic turning point-he was admitting his
love the only way he knew how but rage flowed, the fight, when Jack unwittingly sent the wrong signal, making light of their leaving.  You're
right, Jack was already in love, and doing the best he could--but he sent the wrong message.  He provoked rage, and later, retching, by what
seemed a cavalier attitude.  So we have Ennis crippled by fears, maybe justified, despite all of Jack's later trips, but, LJN, wasn't JACK crippled
by some fears of his own?  On that mountain?  Didn't he fear rejection, despite Ennis' brooding?  Jack was hiding a lot.  Am saying they were
BOTH afraid, not of gay issues, but of the unexpected depth of their love.  Jack hid it, when he hid the shirt.

  

Well IMO the retching was not from Jack's "cavlier" attitude but rather that Ennis just walked away from someone he loved and he knew at that point he'd never see Jack again- it was a physcial reaction to the loss.

Jack was absolutely crippled by fears of his own- I don't think that Jack had a problem with who he was or the fact that he loved a man. I think his fear was more deeply rooted in losing Ennis, thus going along with the "short leash" for years. I think his abusive upbringing had a lot to do with that as well. Both had learned some pretty harsh lessons as boys at the hands of their fathers. I know that's not what you're looking for here but it did shape their view of the world/relationships.

I don't see Jack as afraid of his love, necessarily. When he goes back to Aguirre the next summer after being basically outed by Aguirre, he still asks for Ennis before he leaves. I think Jack was more ready to admit, at least to himself, that he loved Ennis. I hate to use the expression "walking on eggshells" because that sounds too extreme for this but I can't think of anything else right now, but once they reunited Jack had to be careful as to how far he pushed in terms of his wants or obtaining that life with Ennis- too much could have pushed Ennis away- it was a balancing act of sorts. I don't see Jack as afraid of his love but rather afraid of losing that love and I think if he even attempted to verbalize it as love to Ennis it would have scared him off.

I'm not too sure about Ennis- I flip flop on him at times. I don't know if it was fear so much as not being able to accept it. He surely wanted it as evidenced by him quitting jobs and even when he sets up the fishing buddy lie the day he recieves that postcard from Jack- he was setting things in motion in terms of the cover up for Alma. I think he was at war with himself inside, not being able to deny his feelings for Jack- at least to himself but at the same time feeling the stress from that. (not sure if stress is the right word so I hope that came across okay).

Now as for some miscommunications:
When they are standing by Jack's truck after they came down from the mountain Jack says "I might be back, if the army don't get me" And he gets a "see ya around". To be fair it's not the most direct statement in the world, but he's definitely putting out the possibility that he could get drafted and Ennis may never see him again and he got a nonchalant goodbye as if the summer meant nothing.

The divorce debacle: Now in the movie it was a postcard and in the SS it was a phone call. The postcard I could see him misinterpretting and did a lot of thinking on how in the world he misunderstood the phone call. The nearest I could figure is that Ennis may have just said "Me and Alma got divorced" and not much else or if he elaborated any further Jack didn't hear because he heard divorce and his mind went right to "he's telling me it's time to be together" I don't think that would be too far fetched considering that either way (postcard or call) Ennis was doing something completely out of the norm and that had to mean something- at least to Jack.

as The Great Love most of us never know - Well said

[lancecowboy]

[...]
I absolutely agree that this enters the mainstream of all great love stories. Regardless of sexual orientation. Love is love, and being denied it is tragic under any circumstances. I think in regard to fear of love, though, that orientation is very important here (not even orientation itself but the perception of it). Because I think the root of Ennis's fear of acknowledging love for Jack was specifically because he was a man, and Ennis couldn't bring himself to know, consciously, that he loved a man. That was their main obstacle. The mixed signals, bad timing, other responsibilites, etc. were all born of that issue.

And yes, I think that finding the shirts showed Ennis not only that he was loved, but how much he was loved, how steadfastly, and how long. That, coupled with the shock of the loss of Jack, knowing that he would never see him again, helped unlock his acknowledgment of his own love for Jack in return.

Sorry, FlwrChild, I respect your insights, but in this case, I have to disagree. I think the mixed signals, bad timing, and all that, are directly the result of their inability to communicate their feelings, not just their feelings for each other, but all feelings. Men, and especially cowboys, are not known for their emotional communication. The conversations between them about their feelings are remarkable simply for the fact that there was conversation at all. It shows how much love they had for each other - more than could be held back by social conventions.

I agree with you however, that Ennis could not bring himself to name the feelings he had for Jack, was love, or that Jack loved him, at least, not until Cassie told him so.

[LuvJackNasty]

Fear of Love. Right on Tony, very important throughout BBM. My view of this may be a bit different. I feel when Ennis finds the shirts, yes he discovers the depth of the love Jack had for him. But more importantly, Ennis has an epiphany of sorts and discovers the true depth of the love he had for Jack. He has been unable to see this or accept this part of himself until this discovery. He now sees who he is, what he is, and I feel, acknowledges this. Thus he is able to take the shirts and carry the shirts downstairs in front of the Twists and in the light of day "ask" to take his lovers shirt, something no “fishin’ buddy” would do. He is no longer afraid of this love, his love for Jack. “The love that dare not speak its name.” My view.

Very well said. 

I always see him taking those shirts as symbolic of him taking Jack home to live with him-bringing Jack to where he always wanted to be. And I've always believed that Mama T knew exactly who Ennis was- the rightful owner of one of those shirts and that she sent him up there. She doesn't even bat an eye when he comes downstairs, just grabs a bag and puts them in there for Ennis to take. A huge step for Ennis here not to mention just being there in the first place.

[FlwrChild]

Wow, more good responses. You've started a great discussion here, Tony. And I will agree with you somewhat, while sticking to my guns a bit as well. 

"I know you have seen the fear of being seen as gay as central, but, FlowerChild, go with me a little further if you can, that what applies to those great love stories must to some degree be equally present here.  Fear of Love, itself."

I don't think that Ennis had gotten past the issue of loving another man. I agree that in SNIT, there was no repression, no self denial. But it was within a bubble, within the safety of the mountain and the illusion of the “one shot thing”. It was Ennis who was unable to envision a life for them outside of that setting, and who chose to marry Alma, not because he was uncertain of Jack’s feelings for him, but because he believed he had no other choice. As the years went by, they may well have each harbored fears about how much their love was returned, but I think that the hurdle they couldn’t get over, which was perhaps the foundation for the fears that you present, was nevertheless Ennis’s inability to move out of the comfort zone of his “If you can’t fix it, ya gotta stand it” beliefs and the belief that what stood in their way couldn’t be fixed.

[Tony]

    LJN, you said you don't think that's what I was looking for, in part of your post. It's EXACTLY what am looking for.  New territory, and
you found it, in bringing up the abuse both suffered at the hands of their fathers.  We WANT to love our parents.  When they are abusive, that
can be a factor in producing....fear of love.  The loved one can hurt you.
   Lance, your focus, and Jackster's, on the acceptance by Jack's Mom, is also new territory.  With all the new insights, this movie just gets
more and more meaningful, always past what we saw before.
   
  Saw another warning while I was typing, but will post anyway, as am going to bed.

[FlwrChild]

lc, just saw your latest post. I didn't mean to imply that, save for the issue of loving another man, Ennis, or even Jack for that matter, would somehow have been articulate and eloquent in expressing their feelings for each other. But I do think that it is the initial stumbling block, and therefore impacts the rest of their communication patterns throughout their relationship.

[lancecowboy]

    LJN, you said you don't think that's what I was looking for, in part of your post. It's EXACTLY what am looking for.  New territory, and
you found it, in bringing up the abuse both suffered at the hands of their fathers.  We WANT to love our parents.  When they are abusive, that
can be a factor in producing....fear of love.  The loved one can hurt you.
   Lance, your focus, and Jackster's, on the acceptance by Jack's Mom, is also new territory.  With all the new insights, this movie just gets
more and more meaningful, always past what we saw before.
   
  Saw another warning while I was typing, but will post anyway, as am going to bed.

Yup. Great art has many layers, and a thousand little details that reveal themselves only with closer and repeated careful inspection. You always ask such great questions, Tony, and take us deeper into new territory. Thank you, trailblazer! 

[lancecowboy]

lc, just saw your latest post. I didn't mean to imply that, save for the issue of loving another man, Ennis, or even Jack for that matter, would somehow have been articulate and eloquent in expressing their feelings for each other. But I do think that it is the initial stumbling block, and therefore impacts the rest of their communication patterns throughout their relationship.

I think we agree in principle, FlwrChild. I mean, Ennis didn't realize (accept) he was in love with Jack until Cassie walked out the door. The dumbfounded look on his face said it all. "What's love got to do with it?" It was just two guys having fun together doing cowboy stuff. "Girls don't fall in love with fun." and neither do boys. That's when he sent off the postcard, hoping to see Jack again. Even then, he still said November was the earliest he could meet. Guys just can't show that they give a damn, especially to another guy. Ennis simply didn't have a handle on his feelings, as he said, there ain't no reins on this one.

[LuvJackNasty]

   LJN, you said you don't think that's what I was looking for, in part of your post. It's EXACTLY what am looking for.  New territory, and
you found it, in bringing up the abuse both suffered at the hands of their fathers.  We WANT to love our parents.  When they are abusive, that
can be a factor in producing....fear of love.  The loved one can hurt you.
   Lance, your focus, and Jackster's, on the acceptance by Jack's Mom, is also new territory.  With all the new insights, this movie just gets
more and more meaningful, always past what we saw before.
   
  Saw another warning while I was typing, but will post anyway, as am going to bed.

I've said some of this in other threads before concerning Jack and his upbringing. He grew up with fear and the poor thing was probably terrorized by his father.  So let's look at three of the men who had a big role in Jack's life: His father, his father in law and Ennis. LD and John Twist can be pretty much lumped together in that neither felt Jack was worth anything and had no qualms about showing it. but to do a timeline of sorts:

Jack grows up at the hands of an abusive father. Learns fear and more than likely has little self worth.
Jack meets Ennis who is not mean to him, he has a real friend as well as a lover. Jack can be Jack and is accepted by Ennis.
LD enters the picture and to use the scene of Bobby's birth- Jack did his "work", produced the "Newsome Heir" and is basically still treated like a piece of crap. That right there is what made him seek out Ennis again- the one person he knew loved him- he knew he didn't belong there and didn't want to be there. It was a hope and a prayer sending that postcard and both were answered.

The abuse as a child made Jack cling to his dream of being with Ennis and he was willing to make concessions in settling for part of the dream and not totally forcing the issue- the fear of pushing Ennis away. This was the one thing that Jack did right, the one thing he was good at- loving Ennis. Despite not being able to obtain that sweet life, Ennis gave him a sense of worth.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
Jack grows up at the hands of an abusive father. Learns fear and more than likely has little self worth.
Jack meets Ennis who is not mean to him, he has a real friend as well as a lover. Jack can be Jack and is accepted by Ennis.
LD enters the picture and to use the scene of Bobby's birth- Jack did his "work", produced the "Newsome Heir" and is basically still treated like a piece of crap. That right there is what made him seek out Ennis again- the one person he knew loved him- he knew he didn't belong there and didn't want to be there. It was a hope and a prayer sending that postcard and both were answered.

The abuse as a child made Jack cling to his dream of being with Ennis and he was willing to make concessions in settling for part of the dream and not totally forcing the issue- the fear of pushing Ennis away. This was the one thing that Jack did right, the one thing he was good at- loving Ennis. Despite not being able to obtain that sweet life, Ennis gave him a sense of worth.

Thank you LJN, you are always insightful when it comes to Jack because, I think, your love for him gives you special understanding. I saw his reaction, too, in the hospital scene, but did not understand why it drove him to Ennis, except vaguely that he longed for the companionship, the sense of acceptance with a real friend, without ridicule. Your words are beautiful explaining why Jack loved Ennis so much, and why he put up with so much to have Ennis. I love the sentence above in purple, about the postcard. 

[Tony]

     Am up later than I thought I would be, so wanted to cover something before I forget.

  LJN, when I used the word "cavalier" with reference to Jack, I meant seemingly cavalier, because that's what it probably looked like to Ennis,
who was off brooding on the hill so very sad, and here comes Jack to play a prank with the lasso.  We know he was already deeply in love
with Ennis, so maybe it was that dreamy optimism that may have allowed him to look for another day, and just get past that one.
But it was a catastrophically wrong signal and IMO, provoked the bloody fight.

  Then, to your post about Ennis not being mean to him as compared to his dad and father-in-law.  That can be expanded pretty savagely---
as it would seem most guys were down on him.  Add in Aguirre, the rodeo clown, the customer who called him a piss-ant, as he drove the
tractor outside the store.  I've got something ugly to say about that. Some guys (no difference, straight or gay), try to prove how tough they
are by being cold-blooded, and all they prove is that they are dead inside.  Jack wasn't just lively, he had a life-force, and so would have been
troubled, all along by these kind of creeps.  And so, yeah, you're right-Ennis wasn't mean to him, treated him as an equal, and disagreed with
some care taken, when he did disagree.

   But he did hide his love, or, at least, the depth of it.  He showed enough love on that mountain to break through the stone walls around
Ennis Del Mar, but he hid the shirt.  And Ennis never saw him crying, on his way to Mexico.  It's still more than mixed signals---I believe there
is that element of fearing love, or the Great Love, which could always prove to be unsafe, could always lead to rejection.

  Thanks for bringing up something that makes me understand Jack better---with all his love of life, he was always pushed off by others and
so, he saw Ennis, who really loved him, as pushing him off, too, by not going for all of his plans.

[jackster]

. . . . So let's look at three of the men who had a big role in Jack's life: His father, his father in law and Ennis. . . .

This notion (and the rest of your post) is a great idea LJN. Haven't seen this exact idea pop-up anywhere else.  Might be worth it's own thread. And as Tony said, don't forget Aguirre and all the other pissants. To a lot of insecure men the only way to feel bigger is to try and make other men look smaller (the stud-duck method of personal achievment!).

I really like your idea that Ennis is the first M.A.N. that respects Jack. Ennis's unpretentious, solid masculinity is key here to this significance. When this MAN decides on his own free will to then love Jack (SNIT) Jack's heart must just melt away!

No wonder he was hooked for 20 years!!

[jackster]

Fear of Love 2 .... SNIT.
How about SNIT Tony? Is Ennis fearful of what he may discover about himself inside that tent? Here’s this big, strong man, scared of what he may learn if he goes into that tent. But in he goes.
And Jack shows him that (to quote a well worn phrase) “The only thing he has to fear is, FEAR itself.” Ennis discovers love here, Jack’s love, and discovers that Jack isn't afraid to show it. "It's alright, it's alright" And then, Jack discovers Ennis’s love (it wasn’t just a one night thing).

Fear of LOVE seems critical in this scene too, huh?

And, I think FC is right, it's the fear of HOMOSEXUAL love that makes this fear so terrifying to Ennis.

[tpe]

I think both ss and film agreed in the one essential point: that no matter what they said or claimed to be, they were in love with each other and accept it as a matter of fact when they were alone together.  The problem was in the acknowledgement of their love beyond BBM and beyond the two of them.  Jack was moving in this direction, not caring too much what the consequences of a life lived openly.  Ennis could bring a part of himself to accept his love for another man, but the problem arose when he had to acknowledge this before the wider world.  Very close to the root of this fear of exposure is Ennis's own inner homophobia.  For although this homophobia was not enough to keep Ennis from loving Jack, it inevitably became the impediment that kept Ennis from agreeing to a life together with Jack.

[lancecowboy]

This notion (and the rest of your post) is a great idea LJN. Haven't seen this exact idea pop-up anywhere else.  Might be worth it's own thread. And as Tony said, don't forget Aguirre and all the other pissants. To a lot of insecure men the only way to feel bigger is to try and make other men look smaller (the stud-duck method of personal achievment!).

I really like your idea that Ennis is the first M.A.N. that respects Jack. Ennis's unpretentious, solid masculinity is key here to this significance. When this MAN decides on his own free will to then love Jack (SNIT) Jack's heart must just melt away!

No wonder he was hooked for 20 years!!

I agree wholeheartedly, jackster. LJN really got Jack. I might add that Ennis was also hooked for 20 years for a similar reason. Jack is the first man, to reach out and touched him, and probably touched his heart and soul in ways that no one else ever had, not even Alma...Jack may not be perfect, but to Ennis, Jack brought meaning to the dull duty-bound existence of his. Ennis made everything fun, and interesting. That's why Ennis always has a smile on his face when Jack is around, and always frowning and looked miserable when he is not around. Ennis put this down as best buddies, but when Cassie put a finger on it and referred to it indirectly as love, Ennis was dumbfounded.

It's not so much fear of love...in the case of Ennis, it was simply so alien to him that he didn't recognize it, didn't know what to do with it.

[lancecowboy]

I think both ss and film agreed in the one essential point: that no matter what they said or claimed to be, they were in love with each other and accept it as a matter of fact when they were alone together.  The problem was in the acknowledgement of their love beyond BBM and beyond the two of them.  Jack was moving in this direction, not caring too much what the consequences of a life lived openly.  Ennis could bring a part of himself to accept his love for another man, but the problem arose when he had to acknowledge this before the wider world.  Very close to the root of this fear of exposure is Ennis's own inner homophobia.  For although this homophobia was not enough to keep Ennis from loving Jack, it inevitably became the impediment that kept Ennis from agreeing to a life together with Jack.

I think you got Ennis exactly right. His childhood trauma was so ingrain that his own homophobia was second nature. His love for Jack was strong enough to overcome it, as long as it didn't interfere with daily life. For that, he needed the support of loving people like Jack's Ma. I think that's why at the end of the story, Ennis was ready to accept whatever comes, as long as he had  memories of Jack and Brokeback Mountain. As long as he was dealing with people who love him, like his daughter and Jack's Ma. Otherwise, it just the laconic cowboy existence of business as usual, and no emotional interaction. As in a round-up, on a ranch, or with the old man, where a simple "yes, sir" will suffice.

[tpe]

I think you got Ennis exactly right. His childhood trauma was so ingrain that his own homophobia was second nature. His love for Jack was strong enough to overcome it, as long as it didn't interfere with daily life. For that, he needed the support of loving people like Jack's Ma. I think that's why at the end of the story, Ennis was ready to accept whatever comes, as long as he had  memories of Jack and Brokeback Mountain. As long as he was dealing with people who love him, like his daughter and Jack's Ma. Otherwise, it just the laconic cowboy existence of business as usual, and no emotional interaction. As in a round-up, on a ranch, or with the old man, where a simple "yes, sir" will suffice.

Thanks Lance.  Ennis is so complex in this regard, no?  I really wonder whether things would have been different had his mother survived the accident?  Would have had less fear of loving someone more openly? 

[lancecowboy]

Thanks Lance.  Ennis is so complex in this regard, no?  I really wonder whether things would have been different had his mother survived the accident?  Would have had less fear of loving someone more openly? 

I love Ennis' complexity, and seeming simplicity. You are assuming that his mother would be the similar to Jack's Ma. Also, Ennis' attachment seem strongest with his dad, his idol. It's the lack of masculine love in Ennis' life that made Jack's love so bright for Ennis. And vice versa.

[tpe]

I love Ennis' complexity, and seeming simplicity. You are assuming that his mother would be the similar to Jack's Ma. Also, Ennis' attachment seem strongest with his dad, his idol. It's the lack of masculine love in Ennis' life that made Jack's love so bright for Ennis. And vice versa.

Alas, it was Ennis's dad who might also have been close to the root of Ennis's fears -- the Earl and Rich incident, I mean.

Ennis's complexity and simplicity -- seemingly conflicting forces that come to rest in Ennis.  To be sure, he had both in abundance.

[manhattangirl]

"Two guys living together, no way.  We could get together, out in the middle of nowhere",  Ennis's declaration of how this would go.  Let's face it, as far as Ennis was concern he wasn't getting off that mountain.  Jack went along, just like he went along with "I not queer".   All the rules so nicely established, boundaries set. 

And now the hard part, the loving of each other, and the baggage each brought with them.   And both did bring a lot of luggage into this relationship. 

Jack's rejection and abuse by his father, Ennis slow lost of his family, his inability to be open with his own feelings, and let alone with others, and above all to think your father is capable of a murder, and to know the reason your father killed, could be a reason your own father might kill you if ever knew your secret. 

Together they were able to shed some of that baggage and love each other.  Alone together, with the misplace notion no one knew of their relationship, which was myths because, there was some that did know, (Alma, and Aguirre did know).   The problem was they had to between themselves what is it to call it, this "thing".  And how to live and deal with it, while loving each other so desperately.   

my thoughts.   

 

[tpe]

"Two guys living together, no way.  We could get together, out in the middle of nowhere",  Ennis's declaration of how this would go.  Let's face it, as far as Ennis was concern he wasn't getting off that mountain.  Jack went along, just like he went along with "I not queer".   All the rules so nicely established, boundaries set. 

And now the hard part, the loving of each other, and the baggage each brought with them.   And both did bring a lot of luggage into this relationship. 

Jack's rejection and abuse by his father, Ennis slow lost of his family, his inability to be open with his own feelings, and let alone with others, and above all to think your father is capable of a murder, and to know the reason your father killed, could be a reason your own father might kill you if ever knew your secret. 

Together they were able to shed some of that baggage and love each other.  Alone together, with the misplace notion no one knew of their relationship, which was myths because, there was some that did know, (Alma, and Aguirre did know).   The problem was they had to between themselves what is it to call it, this "thing".  And how to live and deal with it, while loving each other so desperately.   

my thoughts.   

 

manhattangirl, I think I echo waht you say here in my latest post in another thread: that they loved each other in spite of themselves and what they were before meeting each other.  I do think you are right when you say that the love was perhaps great enough that they were able to shed some of their baggage because of that love.  At the very least, they were not afraid to love each other, and to acknowledge it between the 2 of them.

[welshwitch]

That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.