Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[Tony]

    These last posts have been so powerful, am having great difficulty in my reactions to them.  They are going to the core of this great love story
each, in different ways.
    The theme here has been an effort to go past the basic challenges in the love between Ennis and Jack (a homophobic mind-set) to the
larger, more universal challenges in any great love, one of which is the fear of love, itself, regardless of underlying issues.  And in all great loves,
that fear is most often---are you loved as much, in return?  That is the tension in all historic loves throughout the ages.  Yet in going there,
that seems to diminish the stage on which the love is played out.  And that shouldn't be so.  Who gives a damn about the bloody, evil feuds
and hates on which are built the loves in Romeo and Juliet, and West Side Story?  They fade against the love itself.  And yet, we do not want
to give ground on the stage here, homophobia, because it is alive, threatening.  Have tried to say, we don't have to give ground on the one,
to explore the other.
    Manhattengirl,  I really, really believe, in BBM, that universal theme is there. I can't answer your question, but can point to the haunting
challenge of surrendering yourself to the beloved, and the fear of losing your identity---who you are.  And point out again, that Annie has
the Dozy Embrace non-sexual, and a conflict between Ennis' internalized ideal of his love for Jack, and the reality of Jack himself, whom he
could not face, but must cling to, non-sexually, from behind.  Two loves- the ideal, inside, and the real, in his arms.
   Then there are Aintfoolin's posts.  It seems to me that all of her posts on other threads were a gradual organization of a full and complete
accounting, finally rendered....here.  Other than a lady I ran into in another forum, I consider Aintfoolin the main expert on Ennis and her
last 2 posts were rich with understanding.  She doesn't see the fear of love, the universal theme, as I do, but has her own territory, fear of
ACCEPTING love.  And, Manhattengirl, please forgive me, but in AF's posts lay many answers to your question.  As usual, amidst all the
expert stuff, she throws in the value of a shotgun and a few guard dogs to settle all of it.  Can't argue with that.
   Again, am having trouble with these posts and may not fully get my mind in gear, for they are past what I have seen before.
Much love--Tony.

[babytammy7]

To be isolated from the rest of the world, to have create a world all your own that no one can touch, enter, invade, can also can be prison, no matter how beautiful it is, vast, or wide.  And to be on Brokeback even after it's done its job, and brought them together, the inability to get beyond that was now impossible for each, but more so for Jack than for Ennis. 

Jack tried but couldn't if Ennis was not able or willing to do so. In the final confrontation, when Jack said to Ennis "all we got is Brokeback Mountain, f#@king all, everything is built on that",  was it fear in his voice when said that or acceptance of the fact Ennis wasn't going anywhere.

Jack knew long before Ennis even realized what they had, and what it meant, the fact that Brokeback bound them forever, and so he wanted his ashes scattered there, he knew it was the one place in all the world that Ennis would return to.  But like all of Jack's plans, nothing came of it.

So beautiful post MG!!!  :\'( And very hearbreaking and nice topic dear Tony!!!

I can not write here 'cause my english  but I've read the whole thread and I'm stunned!!! This is amazing!!

Deep and very touching posts!!! I agree 100% with all of you!!

Tpe, Lance, Tony, MG, AF, WW, Lamusica, Ali, CSC, LJN, Jackster.....THANK OF ALL YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL THOUGHTS!!! YOU'RE AMAZING!!!     

[manhattangirl]

    These last posts have been so powerful, am having great difficulty in my reactions to them.  They are going to the core of this great love story
each, in different ways.
    The theme here has been an effort to go past the basic challenges in the love between Ennis and Jack (a homophobic mind-set) to the
larger, more universal challenges in any great love, one of which is the fear of love, itself, regardless of underlying issues.  And in all great loves,
that fear is most often---are you loved as much, in return?  That is the tension in all historic loves throughout the ages.  Yet in going there,
that seems to diminish the stage on which the love is played out.  And that shouldn't be so.  Who gives a damn about the bloody, evil feuds
and hates on which are built the loves in Romeo and Juliet, and West Side Story?  They fade against the love itself.  And yet, we do not want
to give ground on the stage here, homophobia, because it is alive, threatening.  Have tried to say, we don't have to give ground on the one,
to explore the other.
    Manhattengirl,  I really, really believe, in BBM, that universal theme is there. I can't answer your question, but can point to the haunting
challenge of surrendering yourself to the beloved, and the fear of losing your identity---who you are.  And point out again, that Annie has
the Dozy Embrace non-sexual, and a conflict between Ennis' internalized ideal of his love for Jack, and the reality of Jack himself, whom he
could not face, but must cling to, non-sexually, from behind.  Two loves- the ideal, inside, and the real, in his arms.   Then there are Aintfoolin's posts.  It seems to me that all of her posts on other threads were a gradual organization of a full and complete
accounting, finally rendered....here.  Other than a lady I ran into in another forum, I consider Aintfoolin the main expert on Ennis and her
last 2 posts were rich with understanding.  She doesn't see the fear of love, the universal theme, as I do, but has her own territory, fear of
ACCEPTING love.  And, Manhattengirl, please forgive me, but in AF's posts lay many answers to your question.  As usual, amidst all the
expert stuff, she throws in the value of a shotgun and a few guard dogs to settle all of it.  Can't argue with that.
   Again, am having trouble with these posts and may not fully get my mind in gear, for they are past what I have seen before.
Much love--Tony.

  Tony, you can make me really nuts sometimes,  you answered my question.   I've always wanted to know what you think, I know my questions can be simplistic,  but your ideas and thoughts are so interesting to me.  

Just like what you wrote in the above, let me know what you think.  How you feel.  Like you wrote about the dozy embrace, even though this was Jack's pov, not Ennis's, when he said "let be, let be", do you think Jack himself understood Ennis, and what he was going through.  For me, I've always thought Jack knew Ennis better than Ennis knew himself.   Because all those years Jack tried to convince Ennis what they had was real, while Ennis holding back, never was sure, but could never walk away from what they had, it was what he lived for.  

As for the dozy embrace, this was Jack's moment true.  Who's to say what Ennis was feeling.  Ennis hummed a lullaby his mother sang to him, rocked him gently.   I've thought it as a sign of the one unconditional moment of love Ennis showed to Jack.    Ennis was really who he was, and what he wanted to be with Jack.  All the love that may have escaped him all his life he had at that moment.   It was an unprovoked action of love Ennis showed Jack.  So it's there, the love.

I don't know if this make sense.

[Tony]

     Manhattengirl, not to worry, I drive myself nuts, too.

     Anyhoo....I may have another way of expressing the start of this thread.  IF everyone concedes that the love of  the two men for each
other is co-equal to the love between a man and a woman........then many of the BASIC issues of love, any love, must be there in BBM.

    Homophobia is central to the story and can never be whittled out of it, and everyone is right to continue an emphasis there.  But unless
WE are homophobic, then we must be able to tackle some of the other generic issues that would occur with Ennis and Jack and fear of
love is one of them.  If we proclaim equality, then we must follow up, by looking at their love also with reference to universal themes.

    We can do both here, without undermining either.  They may even be intertwined.

[aintfoolin]

  Tony, you can make me really nuts sometimes,  you answered my question.   I've always wanted to know what you think, I know my questions can be simplistic,  but your ideas and thoughts are so interesting to me.  

Just like what you wrote in the above, let me know what you think.  How you feel.  Like you wrote about the dozy embrace, even though this was Jack's pov, not Ennis's, when he said "let be, let be", do you think Jack himself understood Ennis, and what he was going through.  For me, I've always thought Jack knew Ennis better than Ennis knew himself.   Because all those years Jack tried to convince Ennis what they had was real, while Ennis holding back, never was sure, but could never walk away from what they had, it was what he lived for.  

As for the dozy embrace, this was Jack's moment true.  Who's to say what Ennis was feeling.  Ennis hummed a lullaby his mother sang to him, rocked him gently.   I've thought it as a sign of the one unconditional moment of love Ennis showed to Jack.    Ennis was really who he was, and what he wanted to be with Jack.  All the love that may have escaped him all his life he had at that moment.   It was an unprovoked action of love Ennis showed Jack.  So it's there, the love.

I don't know if this make sense.  

MG,

 I think it makes perfect sense. The dozy embrace was seen from Jack's pov in flashback, But I feel it goes to the heart of how Jack knows Ennis can say so much with so little.

 He indeed understands Ennis this much. Jack knows this is not the same Ennis he met at Aguirre's trailer that day in Signal. He knows it's an "evolved" Ennis, an enlightened Ennis.  something has changed him.  It belies the past, and defines the present, and in Jack's mind perhaps the future at that moment.

The unspoken mutual understanding between just the two of them that the love was there.True it was non-sexual in it's nature , but it's an unprovoked expression of  pure love for Jack. Jack's knows this, and "lets it be"  No words are needed here, just to bask in the glory of that moment was enough.   the lullaby going to the "comfort zone  factor" of Ennis's  love for Jack. Jack is "comforting " to Ennis  and v/v so much so that the lullaby puts their love  up on the same "level "of pure devotion his mother had for him and v/v.  I feel it's what Ennis was trying "equate" to Jack.

 Put in proper  perspective, Jack was at that moment, feeling the love, in contrast to  the present situation he was in during the confrontation scene. I see no better example of what goes to Tony's "Fear of Love concept and "Do you love me enough?" than the confrontation scene. Jack is asking : Where is THAT dozy embrace Ennis that I know and love so well?

 Alot of water has flowed under that bridge and the love is now in danger of being washed away with it. Jack now sees that Ennis has compartmentalized the reality of Brokeback to the the reality of real life aside from it. He sees them  merged as one on a continuous journey, Ennis sees it as two seperate realities and has different coping mechanisms for both  Therein lies the problem  I see Jack simply trying to figure where he now fits into Ennis's world at this point.
 It's Jack's all or nothing , sh-t or get off the pot attitude, vs Ennis's , confusing  If, ands, or buts imo.  I don't feel Ennis was totally playing Jack, but I don't think he was being totally honest either, I feel Ennis was trying to learn how to accept this much unconditional love from Jack and still maintain a sense of who  he is or how he sees himself and if he accepts it fully he is afraid of what he may have to give up in return.  It' SO deep. Thanks.

[aintfoolin]

 Sorry MG, Iscrewed up somewhere and my post is with your quote. Please forgive thanks.

[manhattangirl]

     Manhattengirl, not to worry, I drive myself nuts, too.

     Anyhoo....I may have another way of expressing the start of this thread.  IF everyone concedes that the love of  the two men for each
other is co-equal to the love between a man and a woman........then many of the BASIC issues of love, any love, must be there in BBM.
    Homophobia is central to the story and can never be whittled out of it, and everyone is right to continue an emphasis there.  But unless
WE are homophobic, then we must be able to tackle some of the other generic issues that would occur with Ennis and Jack and fear of
love is one of them.  If we proclaim equality, then we must follow up, by looking at their love also with reference to universal themes.

    We can do both here, without undermining either.  They may even be intertwined.

Tony-I feel less afraid of writing what I see, what I feel. Thanks.

Aintfoolin-thanks, you've pull it together for me.  I've learned so much from your posts, like with Tony, you've always have me thinking at another level, (and pulling me back from the edge), thanks again. 

[Tony]

     Will start this post by saying, the first person to have PBS was Ennis Del Mar, and that occurred in the SS.

     Recently, read the SS critically, rather than casually, and you always have to be careful, there.  We have to try to re-create the first
time. where we don't know the story or the ending.  But if you do that, as best as you can, you see what Annie does---to Ennis and, of
course, to the reader.  As far as her intentions, it is annoying to any author, but their work does stand separate from them, once finished,
and contains their subconscious ideas mingled with their original plan.  The final text, then, is independent of the author.

    Borrowing from Jackster, then, would like to give this outline of the SS, and how it is relevant here:

          Stage one- Annie starts off with her usual theme of what it was really like, in the West, the poverty and the drabness of life set
                         against the raw beauty of nature.  The two lead characters are of interest only as amiable losers with no future.

         Stage two- Having gained the reader's interest by her style and some insight into two guys named Ennis and Jack, she shows empathy
                         for males and their development of friendship--also an interesting theme, and she could have left the story there.

         Stage three- With little warning, she suddenly has them tumble into sex and that alters the nature of the SS, leaving the reader
                         somewhat shaken by the sudden transition and her casual development of the sex, with no judgment either way, right
                         or wrong.
         Stage four-Although she has developed a sexual affair and friendship, she leaves intense love pretty much to the side, leaving the
                         reader mired in the ongoing development of, basically, an atypical relationship, of interest at that level.

        Stage five-She delivers the knock-out punch at the end, transcending the mundane, even, by then, ordinary affair with--issues, and
                       by means of flashback scenes, and the device of the shirts moves to the unexpected- an immortal love story.


    This may try the patience of anyone reading this, as it may seem as if nothing new is shown here, but, in fact, Annie gave no real warning,
to an original reader, that she was going to go past a powerful affair into the greatest love a human being could know.  We've lost that because
we know the ending, and have also seen the film.  But that was her quantum leap, at the end.  Curiously, it would seem she hit both the
reader AND her surviving character, for she leaves him in something past PBS, frequently in a fevered state and overwhelmed with HIS own
love story.
     What's relevant here is that she did give clues, earlier on, and we missed them, so it should be easier to understand how Ennis and Jack
did not do well with the clues they were given of the depth of the other's love.  We want to bat them on the head and get them to communicate
better, but if you deconstruct the SS, the reader does not fully understand, until the end.
    Finally, no one knew death was coming, and so there was no sense of urgency for Ennis and Jack to get things right--things were limping
along, there would always be the next fishing trip....there was time.
    Jack was the first to see time running out, and he challenged Ennis, finally.  I will always believe Ennis took the challenge seriously, and
would gradually have given in.
   Simplistic post, but it goes to my point that neither knew the full intensity of the others love, and could never be sure, absolutely sure, that
they were loved as deeply in return.  And that is a universal theme, fear of love, exposing yourself to danger from the beloved, and loss of
control of your way of life, whatever that is, when you finally commit.

   When it was over, it was too late, and Annie left Ennis in fevered dreams, soaked with urine and sweat, the first victim of PBS, which I
will now be bold enough to define as---an enduring shock that we have it in us to love a great love, not a temporary convenience, but one
that is immortal.
               

[Tony]

      "Hippies, squids, homos, whores--HIT THE DOOR!"  If Brokies can handle the intensity of FNIT then I think you can handle the cheerful,
raunchy way the waitress at our neighborhood tavern, gave out last call, closing time.  And I would like to go back to those days to give an
example where fear of love was well justified and the risk inherent in investing in love could be extreme. (Squid, is a local term for sailors).

     There were two taverns down the street from the Norfolk Naval Base that became legendary for raucous fun, wild doings, and integration
of gays and straights.  I was, myself, a part of that, because the historic confrontation came when that lead waitress came over to tell one
of the gals sitting with me, she was barred---for being openly gay.  I said-she goes---I go.  Am not much of anything now, but in those days,
I was extemely popular---the owner of the bar backed down, and gay became..OK.
   The explosions began.  Gay women showed up, and the lonely sailors poured in to be around women...any women (we have 40,000 extra
males in Norfolk).   The rednecks/hippies were tolerant already.  The straight women were generally...sluts, and found liberation in the wildness
of that gals gay female friends showing up.  Anita Bryant became the bete noire and it was---integrated heaven-85% straight, 15% gay, and
sparks flew.  Anyone who said anything against gay got cold-shouldered or even tossed out the door.
    Same at the tavern next door, but there unravelled a tragedy that still haunts me.  Luke and Gary (names changed). Luke, a tall, lanky
lieutenant and his sidekick, Gary, the most virile male I had ever seen, muscular, brooding, quiet.  They were inseparable and there every night,
shooting pool.  Their wives there, too.  Gary's wife a hot, sexy creature; Luke's wife a quiet lady, dark circles under her eyes, always trying
to be happy, but she only felt safe with me.  And yet---I didn't get it.  The friendship was illegal (fraternization of an officer and seaman), but
nothing seemed astray.
   Until the fight between Luke and Gary.  I missed that, was up at my bar the next night and everybody said it was huge trouble.  Gary was
on crutches in this bar, off to himself and everybody told me of the fight.  Which didn't make sense.  Gary could have broken Luke in two,
yet he held his punches and Luke beat the crap out of him.
   Gary never liked me and I had thought it was because I was rumored to be....metro-sexual.  Still, he came to me and asked would I go with
him next door to see Luke, so he could talk to him.  Did, and it was awful. Luke brushed him off.  Gary asked me to drive him home to Navy
housing, and I did.
   Got there, and he sat in the car and broke down in convulsive sobs---"I...loved him...."  It had been a ship affair.  6 months at sea, those
things could happen, on the sly.  Gary was overwhelmed by Luke's rank, treating him as a human being, being his tribal male  friend--he
worshipped Luke.  Who used him for companionship of the regular male type, and also for.....eventually, sexual relief.  Gary was so in love
with Luke, it was routine, giving his friend head.  Hell, wasn't queer---they both had wives.  It was friendship.  Right?
   Like Jack Twist- Gary wanted... more. Might of been being held.  Maybe kissing.  I don't know.  All I know is in the car that night, Gary
said he could only tell me, because I was a...queer.  I asked him couldn't he--find another guy?  "I ain't QUEER!  I Loved Luke--that's why
I did it for him, on the ship.."
    Never saw him again.  He had loved Luke so much, he had let Luke win the fight, and it was brutal.  Saw Luke.  Went to his nice suburban
home, saw his two kids, and got one of the puppies from their dog's litter.  No mention of Gary.

   Fear of love can be justified.  Those two had an affair for five years and their friendship, itself was considered an innocent male love,
much respected in the two bars.  But one was discardable, when he wanted more.  To the point then, with Ennis and Jack, and all the love
shown between them, there probably always was some measure of fearing to reveal just how much you loved, for it may be threatening
to the other partner, and you may lose them by your very needs.  Push came to shove, and Luke ended it with Gary, in a brutal fight.
I believe Ennis and Jack could survive any fight, but I still see in them the fear of loving too much and the fear of not being loved as much
in return.   Gary and Luke were real.  And Gary disintegrated, in my car that night, knowing that he had taken the risk, and wasn't loved
as he had thought.  All Luke wanted was a close friend, and a safe relief-giver, on long cruises. and for that, Gary risked his sanity, his
sense of being a man, and his very identity.  Fear of love, sometimes, is with just cause.

[tpe]

*** 
   Fear of love can be justified.  Those two had an affair for five years and their friendship, itself was considered an innocent male love,
much respected in the two bars.  But one was discardable, when he wanted more.  To the point then, with Ennis and Jack, and all the love
shown between them, there probably always was some measure of fearing to reveal just how much you loved, for it may be threatening
to the other partner, and you may lose them by your very needs.  Push came to shove, and Luke ended it with Gary, in a brutal fight.
I believe Ennis and Jack could survive any fight, but I still see in them the fear of loving too much and the fear of not being loved as much
in return.   Gary and Luke were real.  And Gary disintegrated, in my car that night, knowing that he had taken the risk, and wasn't loved
as he had thought.  All Luke wanted was a close friend, and a safe relief-giver, on long cruises. and for that, Gary risked his sanity, his
sense of being a man, and his very identity.  Fear of love, sometimes, is with just cause.

Rejection or fear of rejection is one of the most common reasons why people fear to love.  I guess this is why the rejection scene after the divorce really hits home with a lot of us. 

[BBBOY]

I've just been reading this thread, and what a wonderful discussion is going on here. It seems to be not about Ennis and Jack but about the universal roadblocks so many of us encounter in our search for love. Good job friends, keep up the discussion.   

[lancecowboy]

Thanks, Tony. I wonder how many different Brokeback Mountain stories are out there.

Different variations, different ending, but the same central tragic theme. Love that is constant, but denied. Gary is Ennis, not Jack. He loved only one man. He couldn't love any other. He was also Jack, to be brave and honest. Your stories always break me into tears. I will never feel well again until this story leaves my mind.  I hope Gary found peace else where, with another man, with his wife and family. It is better to love without passion, than to lose everything for the sake of passion alone without love. I think that is why so many bisexual men married and have family, even though they know their passionate love is with another man. You always bring the question right to heart, Tony. Fear of love... indeed.

      [...]
   Got there, and he sat in the car and broke down in convulsive sobs---"I...loved him...."  It had been a ship affair.  6 months at sea, those
things could happen, on the sly.  Gary was overwhelmed by Luke's rank, treating him as a human being, being his tribal male  friend--he
worshipped Luke.  Who used him for companionship of the regular male type, and also for.....eventually, sexual relief.  Gary was so in love
with Luke, it was routine, giving his friend head.  Hell, wasn't queer---they both had wives.  It was friendship.  Right?
   Like Jack Twist- Gary wanted... more. Might of been being held.  Maybe kissing.  I don't know.  All I know is in the car that night, Gary
said he could only tell me, because I was a...queer.  I asked him couldn't he--find another guy?  "I ain't QUEER!  I Loved Luke--that's why
I did it for him, on the ship.."
    Never saw him again.  He had loved Luke so much, he had let Luke win the fight, and it was brutal.  Saw Luke.  Went to his nice suburban
home, saw his two kids, and got one of the puppies from their dog's litter.  No mention of Gary.

   Fear of love can be justified.  Those two had an affair for five years and their friendship, itself was considered an innocent male love,
much respected in the two bars.  But one was discardable, when he wanted more.  To the point then, with Ennis and Jack, and all the love
shown between them, there probably always was some measure of fearing to reveal just how much you loved, for it may be threatening
to the other partner, and you may lose them by your very needs.  Push came to shove, and Luke ended it with Gary, in a brutal fight.
I believe Ennis and Jack could survive any fight, but I still see in them the fear of loving too much and the fear of not being loved as much
in return.   Gary and Luke were real.  And Gary disintegrated, in my car that night, knowing that he had taken the risk, and wasn't loved
as he had thought.  All Luke wanted was a close friend, and a safe relief-giver, on long cruises. and for that, Gary risked his sanity, his
sense of being a man, and his very identity.  Fear of love, sometimes, is with just cause.

[BBBOY]

Thanks, Tony. I wonder how many different Brokeback Mountain stories are out there.

Different variations, different ending, but the same central tragic theme. Love that is constant, but denied. Gary is Ennis, not Jack. He loved only one man. He couldn't love any other. He was also Jack, to be brave and honest. Your stories always break me into tears. I will never feel well again until this story leaves my mind.  I hope Gary found peace else where, with another man, with his wife and family. It is better to love without passion, than to lose everything for the sake of passion alone without love. I think that is why so many bisexual men married and have family, even though they know their passionate love is with another man. You always bring the question right to heart, Tony. Fear of love... indeed.

Lancecowboy2007, as an older man I have come to understand that many men, bi-sex men, take a road that in their later years they look back on with regret. Society, conditioning, their own personal fears deny them what they really struggle for in life. As a gay man, in the past I have made light of them, but now I understand what they have had to deal with all their lives. Times change and their conditions may change (ie divorce or lose of their mate) and at last they are able to let go and release their real nature. What a relief that must be for them even if it is in the autumn of their years. I applaud any personwho continues to struggle to understand and come to terms with their nature.  I'm not sure if that makes any sense, forgive me.

[manhattangirl]

Gary and Luke, the seaman and the lieutenant, power and how it plays out in situations.  Gary was a victim of it.  Luke had a the cards, Gary was left short, played, then played out.  It's brutal, but this happens all the time.  Gary couldn't see past his love, to see how vunderable he really was.  Luke, no matter how close they were didn't see him as peer, equal, and that was Gary mistake. 

Ennis and Jack was equal in status, no pot to piss in or a window to throw it out.  That was not the case with Gary and Luke.     Luke had the power and used it.  Gary couldn't get past his love to see it, so the tragedy of love.   Like aintfoolin said it was the commitment of love, (aintfoolin, I hope I'm correct),  stood between Ennis and Jack, that's the difference. 

I hope I'm making sense.

[lancecowboy]

Lancecowboy2007, as an older man I have come to understand that many men, bi-sex men, take a road that in their later years they look back on with regret. Society, conditioning, their own personal fears deny them what they really struggle for in life. As a gay man, in the past I have made light of them, but now I understand what they have had to deal with all their lives. Times change and their conditions may change (ie divorce or lose of their mate) and at last they are able to let go and release their real nature. What a relief that must be for them even if it is in the autumn of their years. I applaud any personwho continues to struggle to understand and come to terms with their nature.  I'm not sure if that makes any sense, forgive me.

BBBoy, as a not much younger man, I understand the road many took, still take, finding acceptance and comfort in a marriage out of love without passion. As you or someone said else where, there are many Alma's in America, witnessing their Ennis in Jack's embrace. Talk shows have had their fair share on the subject. Each couple's story is unique and I never thought to judge them in anyway. Each person has a different motivation, reasons, to do according to his or her circumstances at the time. What you said makes perfect sense. It is the people, who condemn others whom they never met and judge others so quickly whom they never understood; those people don't make sense to me.

Gary and Luke still haunts me hours after reading the story. The military has a special place in my heart and I have known so many in similar circumstances. There is no right or wrong here. The services put unusual stress on people's psyche, and whatever they do, they are the ones who must live with the consequences, as Gary took the risk, and suffered the result. Luke also had to live with the choices he made. Fear of love...Fear of showing love...Fear of living with or without love...

I say fear not...live simply...and love as often and as much as possible,
expecting nothing in return...that's Ennis' way, at the end.

Jack suffered so much because he gave so much and expected much in return.
From the little that Ennis could give him at the beginning, Jack wanted more.
After his transformation at the Thanksgiving dinner, he DEMANDED more.
I don't condemn Jack, but I also would not have gone down the same road.
Love is not demanding. Demands are not loving.
Love is accepting, as is...without qualification, without reservation.
Conditional love have strings that are better cut, sooner the better.

Sorry, ot...Gary and Luke put me in a funny mood. Thanks, Tony, they are almost as real as Ennis and Jack now.  :\'( They will probably haunt me forever. I wish I knew how to quit you.

 

[tpe]

I've just been reading this thread, and what a wonderful discussion is going on here. It seems to be not about Ennis and Jack but about the universal roadblocks so many of us encounter in our search for love. Good job friends, keep up the discussion.   

I guess the discussion oscillates between Ennis and Jack and the more universal concern you refer to. 

Ennis's fears and Jack's attempt to understand and master it finds a ready reflection in mny of us, via their own unique experiences.

[tpe]

Gary and Luke, the seaman and the lieutenant, power and how it plays out in situations.  Gary was a victim of it.  Luke had a the cards, Gary was left short, played, then played out.  It's brutal, but this happens all the time.  Gary couldn't see past his love, to see how vunderable he really was.  Luke, no matter how close they were didn't see him as peer, equal, and that was Gary mistake. 

Ennis and Jack was equal in status, no pot to piss in or a window to throw it out.  That was not the case with Gary and Luke.     Luke had the power and used it.  Gary couldn't get past his love to see it, so the tragedy of love.   Like aintfoolin said it was the commitment of love, (aintfoolin, I hope I'm correct),  stood between Ennis and Jack, that's the difference. 

I hope I'm making sense.

Good point, manhattangirl.

Although there may have also been some power play between Ennis and Jack over they years (on who gets to decide/dictate the terms), I do agree that there is a difference.  As you and aintfoolin have pointed out, it was more a question of commitment in the case of Ennis and Jack.

[Tony]

      Lance, the story was real, and you show a good heart for seeing past words on a screen, to the real tragedy.  Some details left out-
Luke's wife knew (like Alma) and she suffered greatly, for she was a very sweet woman.  Luke was tall and friendly-never saw him showing up
so cold-blooded.  Gary looked like a virile drill instructor and his break-down in my car, crutches and all, was very intense.  Thanks for caring.
     BBBoy-you too showed great humanity in feeling for those you once could not understand.  And, of course, tpe is right-we do wobble here
between specifics and generalities, but it is OK, I think, if we don't wobble too far.  It does always come back to Ennis and Jack.
    Manhattengirl, now am a little worried.  I did see the power play in the rank differences in that story, but I kept the story short as possible,
by leaving out that Luke and Gary did complement each other's personality.  Luke, friendly and confident, Gary, quiet, not well-educated,
insecure, and hostile to other males, as if potential challengers to a fight. 
   But were there power-plays between Ennis and Jack?  Am scared of that. Don't want to go there.  If there were, I'd like to  think they
were just stubborn standing of your ground and not anything more.

[Tony]

    There is an old Jewish saying-you saved my life---I can never forgive you.  Deep and rich in meaning, and so I wonder if I can say to Lance
and to others here---damn you, just---damn you...for loving and being able to love.  But isn't that...why we are here? In this forum? A love story?
    I have used personal stories to make concrete the generalities of the challenges to us of BBM.  And to understand Ennis and Jack better.
There is one more, and I tell it at some risk, for am prone to being wordy and maybe not getting the point across.  It goes to fear of love.

   As a grad student at U.Va., I often loathed that place, for its elitism.  One status symbol was having thousands of dollars of jewelry stolen
from your dorm room, which would show...how casually you flopped around your wealth.  And, the Queen, of course, had stopped in, at times,
to eat with the students, on the way to her horse farm in Kentucky.  Even old school arranged marriages- one family offered me a summer at
their estate to move towards an arranged marriage with their gangly daughter-they approved of my family background.  Snobbishness and wealth
to an extreme.  Side by side with the poverty of the hillbillies surrounding Charlottesville.

   The first I noticed something was strange was a gut feeling of something in the woods behind my little apt. in a subdivided mansion, Wertland
Manor.   And then, first contact, of sorts.  An unkempt but sweetly good-looking lad that was following me as I went along Main Street.  He would
hide, when I looked back.  Too goofy. Turned out, he was the local mystery.  The poor black people who lived in cottages next to the Manor
said he was from the deep woods, afraid of men, lived off of garbage and selling discarded furniture. How old? Maybe 15 to 19 y.o. Dunno.
   What caused his fear of males I do not know- a rancid abusive father?  All I know is that he studied me and felt I was safe and liked my
girlfriend, Laurie.  And he would sleep, tying himself up in the trees, away from animals, so that he would not fall down.  I left out food for him,
but he would only eat if very hungry--other times, it was ignored, as if to preserve his pride that he didn't need me.
   The tragedy hit at the very worst time.  The university had allowed me to commute from Norfolk as my parents were ill, and then suddenly
dying, and I HAD to go home.  And he had fallen out of a tree and lacerated his leg to the bone and would go near no one- a wounded animal.
The black folk were themselves very poor but their lives were centered on this tragedy.  Help was nearby- the U.Va. medical center, but how
to get him there?  He feared all males.  From Norfolk, I begged Laurie to take the time and the risk and see if his love for me would transfer
to her.  It did, and she eventually got him medical care.  He knew her to be safe.  For months, he had seen her with me, from the woods.
    Fear of love.   Laurie and the black folks said- he had loved me, I guess because he saw my habits and am non-threatening.  Good God, what
had been DONE to that poor soul?  But he feared to take the risk and settled for staying nearby someone he felt would not hurt him.
   But would I have hurt him?  Would I have failed to understand his life without any school, or family? Would he have bored me, eventually?
Too needy?  Maybe a life-long commitment, for he had no one.
   These extremes ARE in BBM.  Earl and Rich, for Ennis.  Jack having his father beat him and piss on him.  The cruelty of being discardable males,
basically unneeded in society.  LuvJackNasty spoke of how males trashed Jack, all the way to the end.  And I have to say, as we try to
understand what happened in BBM and also why there was fear of commitment in Ennis and fear of the greatness of their love, in each,
we must understand, this is not fiction....it is all around us.
   BBBoy, I may have been wrong to toss in another story, but I do feel  BBM is about love and is intertwined with the real world, and we can
never do right by this love story unless it changes us to look for Ennis and Jack......nearby.
   I've run out of steam, on long posts of my past.  But it is relevant, in understanding what went wrong and what went right, with our beloved
heroes, to look closer at the world, as those two that we haved loved so much and grieved over may be closer than we think.  Maybe in the
woods behind an apartment, maybe down the street, maybe even at the workplace.  They might be, as I said.....nearby. 



 

[manhattangirl]

      Lance, the story was real, and you show a good heart for seeing past words on a screen, to the real tragedy.  Some details left out-
Luke's wife knew (like Alma) and she suffered greatly, for she was a very sweet woman.  Luke was tall and friendly-never saw him showing up
so cold-blooded.  Gary looked like a virile drill instructor and his break-down in my car, crutches and all, was very intense.  Thanks for caring.
     BBBoy-you too showed great humanity in feeling for those you once could not understand.  And, of course, tpe is right-we do wobble here
between specifics and generalities, but it is OK, I think, if we don't wobble too far.  It does always come back to Ennis and Jack.
    Manhattengirl, now am a little worried.  I did see the power play in the rank differences in that story, but I kept the story short as possible,
by leaving out that Luke and Gary did complement each other's personality.  Luke, friendly and confident, Gary, quiet, not well-educated,
insecure, and hostile to other males, as if potential challengers to a fight. 
  But were there power-plays between Ennis and Jack?  Am scared of that. Don't want to go there.  If there were, I'd like to  think they
were just stubborn standing of your ground and not anything more.

Wasn't there a little attempt at that between Jack and Ennis,  just a little?   After the terms of the relationship was set by Ennis, there were no room for negotiation, were there?    

I know we don't want to think of that,  but how often have we read here in this forum that Jack should have taken a stronger hand against Ennis, and his rules of engagement.   But Jack for his own reasons didn't and followed Ennis's lead.

just a thought.

[Tony]

     Manhattengirl, my two memories from the past, combined with your questions makes me wonder if we haven't asked too much of Ennis
and Jack.  Because of the romantic sweep of the film, and the focus on a great love, aren't we forgetting that, even within the story and the
film, the artists kept reminding us they had the ordinary pressures of life on them.  Ennis bringing the kids to the store.  And challenging Jack
to understand the burden of child support.  And Jack complaining of real life discomforts and problems-the food on Brokeback Mt., and later,
how tired he was, as he grew older, of cold weather.
   We want romantic, we want life extricated from the story line, and they wouldn't give us that, stubbornly keeping to day-to-day, real life
troubles and distractions.  Opposites are true in real life.  In the above story of Luke and Gary, there were the realities of one finally crossing
the line into romantic love, from friendship love, and Luke wasn't going to give up his career, nice home, and wife.  And the story of the poor
hillbilly lad- he wasn't going to give up his pride and admit he needed me, even though the poor black ladies said he would sit, month after
month, waiting for me to come home, and then go running into the woods.  The realities of love are obstructed by our everyday life and our
fears.  Maybe we should factor that in more, de-glamorize BBM, and respect that they gave us the real conflicts or ordinary life clashing with
the parallel reality of great love.    Does THAT make any sense?  Am afraid of this whole general area.  Somebody help me out, if you feel
up to it.

[manhattangirl]

"...yet he was suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.", So Ennis had to close up shop, maybe move in with his married daughter, look for another job, how real could life be for a middle aged man, having to start over.

This what's greets us in the very beginning of the story, life.   But what is it that brought Ennis joy, the memory of someone he'd loved.  I may be wrong but it sound to me like love extricated from life is the premise, as if it was prisoner or something that imprisoned us, now that would be a tragedy. 

If I'm wrong my apologies, but I can't help but feel this.

[tpe]

You can look at it that way: love extricated from life. 

But for some people, a dream is more real than life itself, no? 

I think the language of dreams has a syntax partly made up of things that will never be.  But there is also a part of this syntax that creates a beautiful language for things that have passed but are deeply remembered.

In the end, we can say that the fear of love has been lifted, to be replaced by a dream of love.  It was a love that Ennis truly and really had -- although he fully realized it all too late.

[manhattangirl]

     Manhattengirl, my two memories from the past, combined with your questions makes me wonder if we haven't asked too much of Ennis
and Jack.  Because of the romantic sweep of the film, and the focus on a great love, aren't we forgetting that, even within the story and the
film, the artists kept reminding us they had the ordinary pressures of life on them.  Ennis bringing the kids to the store.  And challenging Jack
to understand the burden of child support.  And Jack complaining of real life discomforts and problems-the food on Brokeback Mt., and later,
how tired he was, as he grew older, of cold weather.
   We want romantic, we want life extricated from the story line, and they wouldn't give us that, stubbornly keeping to day-to-day, real life
troubles and distractions.   Opposites are true in real life.  In the above story of Luke and Gary, there were the realities of one finally crossing
the line into romantic love, from friendship love, and Luke wasn't going to give up his career, nice home, and wife.  And the story of the poor
hillbilly lad- he wasn't going to give up his pride and admit he needed me, even though the poor black ladies said he would sit, month after
month, waiting for me to come home, and then go running into the woods.  The realities of love are obstructed by our everyday life and our
fears.  Maybe we should factor that in more, de-glamorize BBM, and respect that they gave us the real conflicts or ordinary life clashing with
the parallel reality of great love.    Does THAT make any sense?  Am afraid of this whole general area.  Somebody help me out, if you feel
up to it.

I was responding to what Tony written.  I'm wondering if I understood him.   Why do you think this such a fearful emotion.  And is this, (I know I going to get hammered on this), a "guy thing", then if true, when does the fear stop, and you do love with an open heart,  without the fear.

[Tony]

    Manhattengirl, tpe was responding to your reference to Ennis' dreams, and it was an answer I needed, thinking over your post, for I read it
the same way he did.  In fact, the last sentence he wrote pretty much sums up the story of BBM from the angle of fear of love.

   But you referred back, then, to my earlier post, and this one is a real snagglepuss, for I must not have made any sense.  Was trying to say,
as we do examine fear of love, fear of accepting love, fear of taking risks, in BBM, we should not go too extreme in judging either of our boys,
for they had the same daily junk in their lives that we do, and the movie and the SS show that there.  De-glamorizing BBM means, when looking
at their choices, factor out our need for endless romance, factor in the raw troubles of life.  Enough to give them more understanding.  They
didn't know they were in a movie, is my way of putting it.

   As far as when fear of love is conquered and you open up your heart, no, that's not a guy thing.  It's the one area where both genders suffer
equally, in emotions.  Guys hide hurts more, but the hurt is there all the same.

  By the way-this is driving me nuts--there's a song, usually on R&B radio, goes.."..open your heart, and love, again..." Female, black vocalist,
but every time I'd sing it to black friends, they'd recoil in horror.  The refrain is all I can remember, and they were always annoyed at my effort
at R&B.  Any help would help.

[manolo]

Personally, I have arrived at a fear of Brokeback Mountain, the movie itself, and I think for me this is one expression of the current topic, the fear of love, though it may more logically belong to a separate topic.  I've watched the movie dozens of times.  I lost count long ago.  A few months back I found that I could not watch it again.  The mere thought opened an abyss of dread in me, a horror beyond my emotional capacity to deal with.  It turns out that every time I've watched the movie, it took a little more from me than it gave, and ultimately the "trade deficit" was intolerable.

The subject of the movie, it's physical setting, even many of its incidents, were too close to my own experience for me to view it rationally or objectively, as any serious work of art deserves.  In the end, it seemed to be preaching a negative sermon reminiscent of Poe's Raven.  How many more times do I really need to hear the raven say "Nevermore?"  Of course I can read that poem quite safely, since I don't suffer the way Poe did.  At any rate, there's enough distance between us.  I don't have effective defenses against BBM, however.  It gets to me. 

Maybe I can watch it again sometime.  I hope so.

Manolo

[BBBOY]

Personally, I have arrived at a fear of Brokeback Mountain, the movie itself, and I think for me this is one expression of the current topic, the fear of love, though it may more logically belong to a separate topic.  I've watched the movie dozens of times.  I lost count long ago.  A few months back I found that I could not watch it again.  The mere thought opened an abyss of dread in me, a horror beyond my emotional capacity to deal with.  It turns out that every time I've watched the movie, it took a little more from me than it gave, and ultimately the "trade deficit" was intolerable.

The subject of the movie, it's physical setting, even many of its incidents, were too close to my own experience for me to view it rationally or objectively, as any serious work of art deserves.  In the end, it seemed to be preaching a negative sermon reminiscent of Poe's Raven.  How many more times do I really need to hear the raven say "Nevermore?"  Of course I can read that poem quite safely, since I don't suffer the way Poe did.  At any rate, there's enough distance between us.  I don't have effective defenses against BBM, however.  It gets to me. 

Maybe I can watch it again sometime.  I hope so.

Manolo

I would sugget you watch it with like minded people and hold them very close. Perhaps it will help you turn around the "nevermore" and find the "well maybe". We all have th capcity to find that kind of love. We just have to make ourselves vulnerable to it. 

[Tony]

      Dear manolo---thank-you for your speaking to fear of the movie itself, and for your blunt assessment, "a negative sermon".
There was some similarity between BBM and that moody and evil development in French philosophy-existentialism.  Big word for a sad belief,
that there was no God, nor meaning to life, and mankind's fate was to suffer on, nobly.  And the decadence of that philosophy did paralyze
thinking people, paving the way for wars in Europe, the Holocaust, and everything since.  Even Ennis' statement-if you can't fix it, you just
gotta stand it-is, in one way-defeatist, and energy sapping.  The other direction, of course, is "The Sound of Music", where there is resistance
to a wave of evil and the mood is light and cheery and, wheee, you can fix anything, even the nazis, if only you believe.
    I do see your sensitivity to the moody enobling of loss.  My own hope is that the film does not promote despair, but rather, savages us
with hurts so that the layers of indifference can be peeled off our tough hides and we can believe in love, again.
   You also did say that it hit too close to home, meaning, perhaps, your own painful experiences.  That, sir, would be different.  In any case,
I, for one, understood you, have wondered along the same lines, but have preferred to see where BBM can heal.  Meanwhile, don't watch the
movie, then, but please be sure, you are always welcome here.  You sound like a very good man.     Tony.

[tpe]

I would sugget you watch it with like minded people and hold them very close. Perhaps it will help you turn around the "nevermore" and find the "well maybe". We all have th capcity to find that kind of love. We just have to make ourselves vulnerable to it. 

Excellent advice.  Manolo, I feel the same way as you do, and can't watch the movie straight by myself. 

It's interesting that manolo brings up the "nevermore" element in the movie -- the pain of love lost.  As I had said in an early email, the dynamic in the movie shifts from a fear of love to the regret of finally losing it.  I think if you take this as a rather simplistic moral tale, it would not do justice to the subtlety and richness of the story.  It is really about the persistence of the love that binds people, in spite of the intrinsic fragility/tenuousness of it, rather than the fear and the loss of love.

[lancecowboy]

Excellent advice.  Manolo, I feel the same way as you do, and can't watch the movie straight by myself. 

It's interesting that manolo brings up the "nevermore" element in the movie -- the pain of love lost.  As I had said in an early email, the dynamic in the movie shifts from a fear of love to the regret of finally losing it.  I think if you take this as a rather simplistic moral tale, it would not do justice to the subtlety and richness of the story.  It is really about the persistence of the love that binds people, in spite of the intrinsic fragility/tenuousness of it, rather than the fear and the loss of love.

This is profound, tpe.

Love, the tenderest of emotions, is also the strongest and toughest emotion between Ennis and Jack.

In spite of their fear of showing love, in spite of their fear of losing love,
they persevered for twenty years loving each other.

Brokeback Mountain to me is about:
devoted love (Ennis's love for Jack and Jack alone, Jack's Ma's acceptance),
committed love (Ennis and Jack for each other), as well as,
love lost (Ennis lost Jack),
love denied (Earl and Rich, Ennis and Jack, denied by society),
love unrequited (Jack desire for more not returned by Ennis, Cassie's love for Ennis, Alma and Lureen's love for Ennis and Jack), and
love regretted (Ennis not showing more love to Jack when he was alive).

I haven't watched the movie for a couple weeks now, and just watching the trailer the other day puts me in tears again. I also feel what you mean, the power of this movie over me. It is enough that I catch glimpses of it from the reflections of it here in this forum. Like the Sun, Brokeback Mountain can be too overpowering to look at directly. I am with nervous anticipation to the time when I can watch it on the big screen with fellow Brokies in a meet.