Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[lancecowboy]

      Lance, the story was real, and you show a good heart for seeing past words on a screen, to the real tragedy.  Some details left out-
Luke's wife knew (like Alma) and she suffered greatly, for she was a very sweet woman.  Luke was tall and friendly-never saw him showing up
so cold-blooded.  Gary looked like a virile drill instructor and his break-down in my car, crutches and all, was very intense.  Thanks for caring.
     BBBoy-you too showed great humanity in feeling for those you once could not understand.  And, of course, tpe is right-we do wobble here
between specifics and generalities, but it is OK, I think, if we don't wobble too far.  It does always come back to Ennis and Jack.
    Manhattengirl, now am a little worried.  I did see the power play in the rank differences in that story, but I kept the story short as possible,
by leaving out that Luke and Gary did complement each other's personality.  Luke, friendly and confident, Gary, quiet, not well-educated,
insecure, and hostile to other males, as if potential challengers to a fight. 
   But were there power-plays between Ennis and Jack?  Am scared of that. Don't want to go there.  If there were, I'd like to  think they
were just stubborn standing of your ground and not anything more.

Tony, this is a wonderful thread you started, and your long posts are full of treasures. Please continue. I enjoy reading them even though I seldom respond in this thread, preferring to read and learn from the erudite expositions from you, MG, tpe, et al.

I am compelled to respond in this case because the specific topic resonates with me on some levels. In my humble opinion, role-playing and power struggle are natural elements in any relationship. One person naturally on occasion dominates the relationship by virtue of rank, wealth, talents, abilities, looks, social status, etc. However, everyone is good at something, and it is what makes love complements so wonderful. When one person always dominates (as in the case of Luke and Gary) then the relationship becomes unhealthy, because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Ennis complements Jack and Jack complements Ennis, in the same way that Luke and Gary complemented each other. Unfortunately for Gary (and Luke, too, in the long run) their relationship was more heavily weighted, in that Luke had all the power, and Gary had little to do, except as Ennis did, by withholding his commitment and sexual liaisons. Women understood this for many centuries. No sex before marriage, before dowries, etc. Gary gave in, due to circumstances, and lost completely. Ennis held on for as long as he could, and when Jack grew increasingly dominant, he broke.

True love demands that we give up our own tendency for whatever role, and take on the role that best completes the relationship. Luke did not love Gary, or he would not have been so brutal. Brutality is the antithesis of love. Tough love is about being tough within, to stand firm on principles and not give in, not yielding to unreasonable demands. Tough love is not about being brutal on the person you love.

Ennis understood tough love, in his own traumatized way, not giving in to Jack, and his own longing, yearning desire for the sweet life, thinking (however incorrectly) that to yield to Jack was to go down the path of Earl and Rich. But in the end, he was not as tough in that final meeting scene, because he was fighting a losing battle with his own heart on both sides.

Jack loved Ennis for twenty years, and yielded to his fears for as long, but living in the city and mixing in a more worldly crowd, he knew the world has changed, and their sweet life was within grasp. He was trying tough love with Ennis, to push him beyond the limits of his fears. In the end, he loved Ennis so much, he would let it go, and not break Ennis further. To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love.

Role playing and power struggles are natural in relationships, but not conducive to true love relationships. IMO. I feel for Gary as much as I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that.  This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. I hope Gary found fulfillment, too.

 

[manolo]

(I wrote the following before the last two or threes messages appeared in this topic.  I know there's a slightly sarcastic or ironic tone to what I'm saying, but I require some humor to be able to think about BBM at all.  I'm a little vulnerable right now.  I'm trying to be amusing, not offensive.)

The tragedy of BBM isn't exactly what it seems.  For instance, it isn't that Jack and Ennis miss out on the bliss of permanent cohabitation.  I won't even try to imagine how that would have turned out, but many years ago Jack Benny did a hilarious takeoff on Tarzan and Jane a few years into their marriage, with Benny playing Tarzan and Carol Burnett playing Jane.  Keeping the tree house neat and swept would be hard enough without chimps and other forest animals forever underfoot.  And imagine having to clean and cook whatever game Tarzan provided to eat.  No, that kind of success is the cruelest possible outcome of true love.  In traditional stories, true love is always star-crossed.  True lovers never really get together except perhaps posthumously when vines from their graves intertwine.  In BBM, that function is served by the Levi jacket and worn western shirt forever joined on a hanger in the closet.

The tragedy isn't even homophobia or Jack's death.

It's hard to define what the tragedy is, but damn it's heartbreaking.  Maybe it's the pain of love itself, something irreducibly mysterious.  I can't define it, but I can say that when a connection like that is established between two men, and if something goes wrong and the connection gets broken or interrupted, it will cause suffering like no other.

Manolo

[tpe]

This is profound, tpe.

Love, the tenderest of emotions, is also the strongest and toughest emotion between Ennis and Jack.

In spite of their fear of showing love, in spite of their fear of losing love,
they persevered for twenty years loving each other.

Brokeback Mountain to me is about:
devoted love (Ennis's love for Jack and Jack alone, Jack's Ma's acceptance),
committed love (Ennis and Jack for each other), as well as,
love lost (Ennis lost Jack),
love denied (Earl and Rich, Ennis and Jack, denied by society),
love unrequited (Jack desire for more not returned by Ennis, Cassie's love for Ennis, Alma and Lureen's love for Ennis and Jack), and
love regretted (Ennis not showing more love to Jack when he was alive).

I haven't watched the movie for a couple weeks now, and just watching the trailer the other day puts me in tears again. I also feel what you mean, the power of this movie over me. It is enough that I catch glimpses of it from the reflections of it here in this forum. Like the Sun, Brokeback Mountain can be too overpowering to look at directly. I am with nervous anticipation to the time when I can watch it on the big screen with fellow Brokies in a meet.

Yes, love is tender, and yet it has an edge that can cut -- and cut deep.  I think much of the fear of love is fear of being cut, so to speak.  The same with us, the viewers: our own fears are projected, and we therefore find it difficult to watch certain scenes.  Ennis overcame a bit of the fear with the help of someone else (Jack).  So too, our trepidation can be assuaged by watching this with fellow brokies. 

I have not watched the movie since the brokie gathering in Maryland.  Most likely, I will get to watch it again during the next one, wherever/whenever it is.

Thanks manolo.

And thanks lance. 

[ayasha]

I've caught this thread a bit too late, there are so many posts and so long and deep...It'll take me some time to read them, but congratulations to you all..I think it's one of the most interesting threads in this forum 

[Tony]

     Dear manolo---your two posts were of great interest to me and I hope I am not being overly-familiar in my reaction to them.

     You spoke, first, of the deadly abyss, to be found in Poe's poem-the Raven's smirking conclusion to a real love, lost.  Then, with some
humor, you brought up a comedy skit showing the absurdity of a romantic love lingering into old age (who cleans up the monkey poop?).
You seem to be drifting into a sense that real love must be  between two people at the peak of their attractiveness and life-force and that
even then, there is a mysterious, haunting pain, which might be better cut short.
   And you've also mentioned, ever so slightly, some pain in your life right now.  Here is where I may give offense, by being too forward.
Manolo, get away from these thoughts, where they are combining into a life-outlook, and as quickly as possible.  Your sense of humor is
an armor that can let you examine them independently (and, by the way, they would, separately, provide some real progress in this thread),
but, linked together, I think they could steal from you your right to quietly, at your own pace, look over love, again.
    At the risk of making myself a fool (a risk I often take), I am saying that you appear to be....a gentleman, and one who is wondering
what everything comes to, in your own thoughtful way.  Take care---independent thoughts can combine to do grave harm to your better
self--good humor and abiding respect for love.  BBBoy's words were the best, in his reply.  But I am a little cranky and do often fear that,
unless challenged, a mood, an outlook, can be thieving from what is due for us-----healing.  My deepest apology if I have mis-spoken. Tony.

[manolo]

Your comments are welcome, Tony, and I see nothing offensive about them.  I think I have allowed myself to be shut into a rather cynical view of love.  Maybe the biggest challenge of all is keeping free of such self-imposed limits.  For some reason I and many others seem to prefer our suffering to the possibilities of healing.  Such an attitude seems to be what keeps the jukebox playing, considering how much popular music celebrates the pain of love.

When I first saw BBM, I got a big lift from it.  I felt that it validated and seconded much of my emotional life, promoting a more positive attitude toward it.  Later, it fed into my negativity.  You are quite right to see that negativity and counter it.  No matter how painful and negative some of my experiences have been, there's no good reason for me to be negative myself, and I wouldn't want to calcify emotionally that way.

I'm trying to remember why BBM made me so positive at first and so negative later on.  Are both tendencies present in the film, or just in the viewer?

Manolo 

[Tony]

    Hi-manolo----kinda think both tendencies are in the film and the viewer, but intertwined like a helix.  Maybe, together, they produce
emotional catharsis  (dammit-gotta stop using these $20 words! Need some nickel words.).  Unravelled, we got trouble.  At some point, you
may have gotten catharted out (new word, sorry).
    Some might find it sinister, the way the film uses sound, color tones, tempo, to draw you in for a knock-out punch.  It alternates between
being a mood film, which can be dark, and a message film, which can uplift, if you see the message as the enduring power of love.
   There are a lot of threads that show the good, the way these two healed each other and, pimping my own first thread, (Ennis & Jack,
Change and Redemption), how they gave meaning to each others lives.  This forum is loaded with threads that explore the vibrant life they
had and what they gave to each other, to the good.
   "How Green Was My Valley" is the only other work that had me to weeping, and that one ended terribly, too---but it was also a celebration
of life and the unexpected richness of beauty, found in a Welsh coal-mining town.  Maybe great art must reflect the bad and the good, as
anything else is a cartoon.   Anyway-thanks for taking no offense, for I spoke from good will.      Tony.

[lancecowboy]

(I wrote the following before the last two or threes messages appeared in this topic.  I know there's a slightly sarcastic or ironic tone to what I'm saying, but I require some humor to be able to think about BBM at all.  I'm a little vulnerable right now.  I'm trying to be amusing, not offensive.)

The tragedy of BBM isn't exactly what it seems.  For instance, it isn't that Jack and Ennis miss out on the bliss of permanent cohabitation.  I won't even try to imagine how that would have turned out, but many years ago Jack Benny did a hilarious takeoff on Tarzan and Jane a few years into their marriage, with Benny playing Tarzan and Carol Burnett playing Jane.  Keeping the tree house neat and swept would be hard enough without chimps and other forest animals forever underfoot.  And imagine having to clean and cook whatever game Tarzan provided to eat.  No, that kind of success is the cruelest possible outcome of true love.  In traditional stories, true love is always star-crossed.  True lovers never really get together except perhaps posthumously when vines from their graves intertwine.  In BBM, that function is served by the Levi jacket and worn western shirt forever joined on a hanger in the closet.

The tragedy isn't even homophobia or Jack's death.

It's hard to define what the tragedy is, but damn it's heartbreaking.  Maybe it's the pain of love itself, something irreducibly mysterious.  I can't define it, but I can say that when a connection like that is established between two men, and if something goes wrong and the connection gets broken or interrupted, it will cause suffering like no other.

Manolo

Hi, Manolo, no worries, your post is well-written, and not offensive at all. I feel the same about love confronted with daily chores. It is one thing to love and enjoy the honeymoon, but quite another to care for the kids, and little things, like laundry and vacuuming. We won't even get into the bathroom scene. Your light humor also helps to lift the PBS around here. Most important of all, I welcome a fellow Carol Burnett fan!  I grew up watching her shows, and love everyone. I miss her self-deprecating humor, her insight into human relationships. I wonder what she has to say about Brokeback Mountain. I can imagine her brand of humor showing up in FNIT or the last meeting scene.

Love is grand when it is smooth as silk.
Love can cut when it is rough and uneven.

To love is to take risk, so love carefully.
To love is to hope for the best, so dream grand dreams.

To love is to be vulnerable, so trust with open eyes.
To love is to hold your lover's heart in your hands, so tread gently.

I have love and lost, as many here and everywhere.
Is it better to have love and lost, then never to have loved at all?

It is a question that only a person who has loved and lost can answer,
and only for the self, not others, because every love is different, every person is different.

Thanks, Manolo, for shedding some humor into the mix.
I always get too serious and too depressing in my long posts. 

[lancecowboy]

Yes, love is tender, and yet it has an edge that can cut -- and cut deep.  I think much of the fear of love is fear of being cut, so to speak.  The same with us, the viewers: our own fears are projected, and we therefore find it difficult to watch certain scenes.  Ennis overcame a bit of the fear with the help of someone else (Jack).  So too, our trepidation can be assuaged by watching this with fellow brokies. 

I have not watched the movie since the brokie gathering in Maryland.  Most likely, I will get to watch it again during the next one, wherever/whenever it is.

Thanks manolo.

And thanks lance. 

Hi, tpe, there is no fury worst than a woman's scorn. Love and hate are mere opposite sides of the same coin. As someone wise said, and I can't remember who: to be loved is to have your lover's heart in your hands. Love can cut; our beloved can crush our heart with careless ease, with witty cutting remarks, with thoughtless actions or inactions. To love is to be vulnerable. And nothing cuts deeper than a cut on naked flesh. For those who have loved and lost, love unrequited, love denied, the cut is deep and fresh, and fear of love is but fear to risk being cut again. The deeper the wound, the greater the fear.

Cutting, crushing, careless thoughtless people, cruel and uncaring...these are the tragedies of the world, not the lovers who risk their hearts, the people who reach out with hope and dreams, even overcoming tremendous odds, overwhelming fears.

[manhattangirl]

Hi, Manolo, no worries, your post is well-written, and not offensive at all. I feel the same about love confronted with daily chores. It is one thing to love and enjoy the honeymoon, but quite another to care for the kids, and little things, like laundry and vacuuming. We won't even get into the bathroom scene. Your light humor also helps to lift the PBS around here. Most important of all, I welcome a fellow Carol Burnett fan!  I grew up watching her shows, and love everyone. I miss her self-deprecating humor, her insight into human relationships. I wonder what she has to say about Brokeback Mountain. I can imagine her brand of humor showing up in FNIT or the last meeting scene.

Love is grand when it is smooth as silk.
Love can cut when it is rough and uneven.

To love is to take risk, so love carefully.
To love is to hope for the best, so dream grand dreams.

To love is to be vulnerable, so trust with open eyes.
To love is to hold your lover's heart in your hands, so tread gently.

I have love and lost, as many here and everywhere.
Is it better to have love and lost, then never to have loved at all?

It is a question that only a person who has loved and lost can answer,
and only for the self, not others, because every love is different, every person is different.

Thanks, Manolo, for shedding some humor into the mix.
I always get too serious and too depressing in my long posts. 

Now see, you guys had to go there.  I can't help but smile when I remember her in the "Gone with the Wind" skit, and the drapery rods still in her dress.    How would the interpet BBM, Harvey Korman as Ennis, and Tim Conway as Jack, and Carol as Alma when she see them kissing in the Reunion scene just imagine the look on her face.  Now you see,  I can't get this imagine out my head.  Thanks a lot.

[lancecowboy]

Now see, you guys had to go there.  I can't help but smile when I remember her in the "Gone with the Wind" skit, and the drapery rods still in her dress.    How would the interpet BBM, Harvey Korman as Ennis, and Tim Conway as Jack, and Carol as Alma when she see them kissing in the Reunion scene just imagine the look on her face.  Now you see,  I can't get this imagine out my head.  Thanks a lot.

 
ROFLMAO 
MG thanks for spreading the image...I love Harvey and Tim, and Carol as Alma!!! That's just priceless...Thanks a million. We must do this skit when we meet. IT IS A HOWL! I can imagine the reunion embrace....innnn sloooow mooootion, 

Sorry if I got carried away, but you caught me off guard at 3 AM in the morning, and I am a real Carol Burnett fan. Love her to bits.  I can't tell you how good it feels to just laugh so hard just now.... 

 

[welshwitch]

Love and loss, laughter and tears, presence and absence, dark and light, yin and yang; if these are entwined as the two sides of  a helix, then the helix most of us think of is DNA. And each elemnt on one side is joined to its complementary one by a rung - so it's in the nature of existence, and deeply encoded in our cells, that to every positive there's a negative, and accepting this is part of learning to live.

[Tony]

    These latest posts have gotten me thinking, which, in my case, can be with results annoying to others.  Will start with Welshwitch's
development of the helix, which football I will try to run with towards a touchdown.
    Ever notice how your pets, a dog or a cat, are perfectly comfortable with you, and all is normal, until they see another of their kind?
It all collapses, as they see....another like unto themselves, with fur and fangs, and the need to...well, sniff things out.  YOU are briefly,of
no consequence.  It is the OTHER they want to know.  Alas, the same, with small children in  the supermarket.  All is well, until they see
another of their kind, and they are mesmerized, looking each other over.  Who are YOU?
    In friendships and much more, in love with another, the Me and the You are the helix, intertwining.  But it can be a difficult fit because
we are so made, that we are naturally self-absorbed, and naturally in need of others.  In DNA there can be a dominant strand, so it would
not be so terrible, in a love, for one to put himself first, at times, and the other adapt.  So there is that tension of the helix fitting together,
and bruises and hurts where it does not, and yet the strands have found each other, and must sort out the Me and the You.
  Ennis and Jack were, then, always trying to fit, as best as they could (and it is amazing how their story reflects the harsh reality of real
life---no phony perfections, there...).  And so it worked, and it didn't.  The two strands had found each other, but each link did not exactly
fit.  The helix became complete, only after Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts, and then the awful realization for Ennis, that the
fit was more perfect than he knew.  But that is the tension in love (Manhattengirl, am in your territory now), the difficulty in fitting together
the Me and the You, into a functioning helix, independent of the rest of the world.

    By the way, on the other subject of de-glamorizing BBM, briefly, to better understand the challenges they faced, I reviewed the stories I
have told here and in other threads, of personal encounters.  Had I pumped them up?  Romanticized them?  The answer is a nightmare for me-
I had not.  They were much more than I told, including that sweet hillbilly lad, who so very much needed a friend and who did, in fact, stay as
near as he could, without giving up his pride, for so many months.  The strand of friendship never came together, the Me and the You, were
kept apart by fear and terrible wounds, still bleeding, in his life, and my own pressure of a daily schedule.  I wonder where he is, now, and if
someone finally gained his trust and that, this day, he has a home and all the fixings of a holiday meal.  Life, daily life, brought troubles to
Ennis and Jack.  We should give them, and ourselves, a break, when the strands of the helix don't perfectly fit.

[manhattangirl]

Was Jack and Ennis living a life not fitted to them, wouldn't the helix collapses then.  A shadow life, neither man was at peace with himself apart from each other, the structure is weaken.   Remember the scene with Ennis watching Starsky and Hutch, beer in hand, not moving.  Alma wanted to go to the church social, Ennis wasn't interested, Jack comes to town, Ennis is ready to go, looking all "perky" when he gets back. 

They held on to each other for nearly twenty years, why?  Because what they had was more real than the lives they were living.  But the fear was leaving that world, and creating one of their own was the stumbling block, Jack was willing,  Ennis was relunctant.  A house divided.

   

[babytammy7]

The tragedy of BBM isn't exactly what it seems.  For instance, it isn't that Jack and Ennis miss out on the bliss of permanent cohabitation.  I won't even try to imagine how that would have turned out, but many years ago Jack Benny did a hilarious takeoff on Tarzan and Jane a few years into their marriage, with Benny playing Tarzan and Carol Burnett playing Jane.  Keeping the tree house neat and swept would be hard enough without chimps and other forest animals forever underfoot.  And imagine having to clean and cook whatever game Tarzan provided to eat.  No, that kind of success is the cruelest possible outcome of true love.  In traditional stories, true love is always star-crossed.  True lovers never really get together except perhaps posthumously when vines from their graves intertwine.  In BBM, that function is served by the Levi jacket and worn western shirt forever joined on a hanger in the closet.

The tragedy isn't even homophobia or Jack's death.

It's hard to define what the tragedy is, but damn it's heartbreaking.  Maybe it's the pain of love itself, something irreducibly mysterious.  I can't define it, but I can say that when a connection like that is established between two men, and if something goes wrong and the connection gets broken or interrupted, it will cause suffering like no other.

Manolo

Very beautiful post Manolo!!!

I agree 200% with you!!! I've always thought that the tragedy in BBM wasn't homophobia nor Jack's death, and you know how to put some of my thoughts in words!!!

Thank you so much for that!!! 

[babytammy7]

Tony, this is a wonderful thread you started, and your long posts are full of treasures. Please continue. I enjoy reading them even though I seldom respond in this thread, preferring to read and learn from the erudite expositions from you, MG, tpe, et al.

I am compelled to respond in this case because the specific topic resonates with me on some levels. In my humble opinion, role-playing and power struggle are natural elements in any relationship. One person naturally on occasion dominates the relationship by virtue of rank, wealth, talents, abilities, looks, social status, etc. However, everyone is good at something, and it is what makes love complements so wonderful. When one person always dominates (as in the case of Luke and Gary) then the relationship becomes unhealthy, because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Ennis complements Jack and Jack complements Ennis, in the same way that Luke and Gary complemented each other. Unfortunately for Gary (and Luke, too, in the long run) their relationship was more heavily weighted, in that Luke had all the power, and Gary had little to do, except as Ennis did, by withholding his commitment and sexual liaisons. Women understood this for many centuries. No sex before marriage, before dowries, etc. Gary gave in, due to circumstances, and lost completely. Ennis held on for as long as he could, and when Jack grew increasingly dominant, he broke.

True love demands that we give up our own tendency for whatever role, and take on the role that best completes the relationship. Luke did not love Gary, or he would not have been so brutal. Brutality is the antithesis of love. Tough love is about being tough within, to stand firm on principles and not give in, not yielding to unreasonable demands. Tough love is not about being brutal on the person you love.

Ennis understood tough love, in his own traumatized way, not giving in to Jack, and his own longing, yearning desire for the sweet life, thinking (however incorrectly) that to yield to Jack was to go down the path of Earl and Rich. But in the end, he was not as tough in that final meeting scene, because he was fighting a losing battle with his own heart on both sides.

Jack loved Ennis for twenty years, and yielded to his fears for as long, but living in the city and mixing in a more worldly crowd, he knew the world has changed, and their sweet life was within grasp. He was trying tough love with Ennis, to push him beyond the limits of his fears. In the end, he loved Ennis so much, he would let it go, and not break Ennis further. To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love.

Role playing and power struggles are natural in relationships, but not conducive to true love relationships. IMO. I feel for Gary as much as I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that.  This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. I hope Gary found fulfillment, too.

 

Lance, I really love all yours posts friend!!

So beautiful and well said!!! 

  Hey cowboy, really, I'm so terribly sorry for your lost.... :\'( But I hope you are OK now; I know you're strong like Ennis and we all in this forum love you. I wish you all the happiness of the world!!! 

[tpe]

Hi, tpe, there is no fury worst than a woman's scorn. Love and hate are mere opposite sides of the same coin. As someone wise said, and I can't remember who: to be loved is to have your lover's heart in your hands. Love can cut; our beloved can crush our heart with careless ease, with witty cutting remarks, with thoughtless actions or inactions. To love is to be vulnerable. And nothing cuts deeper than a cut on naked flesh. For those who have loved and lost, love unrequited, love denied, the cut is deep and fresh, and fear of love is but fear to risk being cut again. The deeper the wound, the greater the fear.

Cutting, crushing, careless thoughtless people, cruel and uncaring...these are the tragedies of the world, not the lovers who risk their hearts, the people who reach out with hope and dreams, even overcoming tremendous odds, overwhelming fears.

Indeed, part of the fear of love is the fear to put oneself in another person's hands.   One cannot love without putting oneself in a position of emotional vulnerability.  Rejection and scorn can cut very deep, and such a wound does not easily heal that quickly.

That taken into account, it certainly takes a lot of courage to love, and love deeply.  And abiding faithfulness can only be born out of such courage and the will to be vulnerable for the sake of the other.  How does Scripture put it?  Fidelis usque ad mortem et dabo tibi coronam vitae ("Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life")

 

[aintfoolin]

 Well,  passed my two drink minimum last night during the adventure known as " Thanksgiving dinner  with the Relatives", but that's defintly a country song, so here I am trying to decipher sober life again through the haze of
"hangover heaven" or is it hell?  LOL. Thank goodness for alka seltzer, the cure, but  anyway I've  been reading the thread and feel compelled to post.

 I've pondered often , HOW did these two cowboys get together in the first place. At first glance, on the surface, Jack and Ennis seem so  different personality wise and in many other ways, which leads me to this question. At 19, did they know themselves well enough to recognize " real true love"?  Or was it both their past upbringins that compelled them to seek out what was missing in their lives  from each other,in order to find a sense of completion.
 I don't think they sought love out, but more a case of seeking, like most of us at that age, a deeper meaning of life. In this sense they were both vulnerable and complex.  Niether were deep thinkers, nor communicated very well, especially Ennis, who for  all his outward stoic, orderly  lifestyle, his knack for order and common sense thinking, found himself loosing control  of this in his love for Jack. The more love Jack smothered him with love , the more control was was lost and Ennis begins using fam, jobs and other issues to hide his desperation of fear of loosing it completly.  He loved and desired this "thing" as he called it but this love was stripping him bare. his desire for Jack opening old wounds.  He would being asked to show all vulnerabilties, hand them all over to Jack's loving  hands, place himself naked in body and soul. To ACCEPT all that Jack was offering comes down to a matter of  total trust  from being that exposed.

Ennis saw himself a certain way, and now everything in his world is being turned upside down, because Jack loved him and it is in this mindset that he feels  he must change his routine life. It is here that he is not ready, willing or able to do this.
Jack loved him as is , but Ennis felt he have to give up who he had been taught all his life to be. , in order to accept this much unconditional love. I feel this is Ennis's biggest fear. What would he have to do? How is he suppose to act? How much would he be willing to give of himself in the face of love? Jack's love.

 And what about Ennis's common sense thinking in how he really saw Jack.  I wonder if Ennis felt Jack  himself was really ready for what he wanted, the sweet life and all that that entails?  Did Ennis understand , and trust enough  in order to accept Jack's love fully and freely and then reciprocate it? I think not. I won't say that a part of him deep inside did not want to learn to love Jack without the restraints,  or even thought it possible,  but he did'nt know how. He seems to be one who was always taught to fix his own problems, think for your self and never accept weakness in himself or others.

 Nothing in his past had prepared him for the love of Jack Twist, another man, but he did remember Earl and Rich. The negative outcome of their lives and their love , his only example, of what could or would happen. Jack is in the  unenviable position of reversing the effects of that hateful act. That aint an easy task as was proven in the film.

[babytammy7]

Well,  passed my two drink minimum last night during the adventure known as " Thanksgiving dinner  with the Relatives", but that's defintly a country song, so here I am trying to decipher sober life again through the haze of
"hangover heaven" or is it hell?  LOL. Thank goodness for alka seltzer, the cure, but  anyway I've  been reading the thread and feel compelled to post.

 I've pondered often , HOW did these two cowboys get together in the first place. At first glance, on the surface, Jack and Ennis seem so  different personality wise and in many other ways, which leads me to this question. At 19, did they know themselves well enough to recognize " real true love"?  Or was it both their past upbringins that compelled them to seek out what was missing in their lives  from each other,in order to find a sense of completion.
 I don't think they sought love out, but more a case of seeking, like most of us at that age, a deeper meaning of life. In this sense they were both vulnerable and complex.  Niether were deep thinkers, nor communicated very well, especially Ennis, who for  all his outward stoic, orderly  lifestyle, his knack for order and common sense thinking, found himself loosing control  of this in his love for Jack. The more love Jack smothered him with love , the more control was was lost and Ennis begins using fam, jobs and other issues to hide his desperation of fear of loosing it completly.  He loved and desired this "thing" as he called it but this love was stripping him bare. his desire for Jack opening old wounds.  He would being asked to show all vulnerabilties, hand them all over to Jack's loving  hands, place himself naked in body and soul. To ACCEPT all that Jack was offering comes down to a matter of  total trust  from being that exposed.

Ennis saw himself a certain way, and now everything in his world is being turned upside down, because Jack loved him and it is in this mindset that he feels  he must change his routine life. It is here that he is not ready, willing or able to do this.
Jack loved him as is , but Ennis felt he have to give up who he had been taught all his life to be. , in order to accept this much unconditional love. I feel this is Ennis's biggest fear. What would he have to do? How is he suppose to act? How much would he be willing to give of himself in the face of love? Jack's love.

 And what about Ennis's common sense thinking in how he really saw Jack.  I wonder if Ennis felt Jack  himself was really ready for what he wanted, the sweet life and all that that entails?  Did Ennis understand , and trust enough  in order to accept Jack's love fully and freely and then reciprocate it? I think not. I won't say that a part of him deep inside did not want to learn to love Jack without the restraints,  or even thought it possible,  but he did'nt know how. He seems to be one who was always taught to fix his own problems, think for your self and never accept weakness in himself or others.

 Nothing in his past had prepared him for the love of Jack Twist, another man, but he did remember Earl and Rich. The negative outcome of their lives and their love , his only example, of what could or would happen. Jack is in the  unenviable position of reversing the effects of that hateful act. That aint an easy task as was proven in the film.

I'm stunned!!! Without words!! So beautiful post AF...and so true, really. You've made me think, a lot.....

[Tony]

     Aintfoolin, what you wrote and what I got out of it may be two different things, but what I saw was that you moved towards the normal
love problems, including not being used to being in love and also the difference between Ennis being practical and Jack being a dreamer.  Those
weren't your exact words--but that's what I saw there.  And there's many a scene where Ennis has to bring up the practical-like the one where
he goes, sure, you and Lureen will take in my kids and L.D. Newsome will rain money on us.....etc., and he loses the cooking pan in the stream.
   That's what I had meant when I said the issues of homophobia and repression were never going to go away, but that we could give these
guys a break, and grant that they had normal problems, which we ought to look over, too.  Dammit, if it takes your having a rare hangover
to finally get us there----please....drink more often.  Thanks.....Tony.

[BBBOY]

It is so good to see this discussion going on here.  Bravo to you all.

[lancecowboy]

Lance, I really love all yours posts friend!!

So beautiful and well said!!! 

  Hey cowboy, really, I'm so terribly sorry for your lost.... :\'( But I hope you are OK now; I know you're strong like Ennis and we all in this forum love you. I wish you all the happiness of the world!!! 

Grazias, amiga babytammy7. I don't know what comes over when I sit in front of the computer in this forum. My fingers begin to dance on their own and words that don't seem to belong to me come pouring out. I read what you bolded, and it amazed me, too. I didn't know I had it in me to say something like that. "To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love. [...] I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that.  This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. "

I thought I was the only one, alone with a loss that I dared not speak its name, fear of showing emotions, of love that is ashamed in the world. The loss was natural and common in this world, unfortunately, and I would have gotten over it eventually, however hard it was. But to be ashamed of it, to fear it on top of losing it, and all the regrets...That was the hardest part of all. I still have my dark and painful days, but the movie made it better, to watch it and let my feelings out, let the tears and sobs come unbidden, and let them go unashamed.

I think that was the best and most wonderful gift of all, the one that Ennis took with him when he left Lightning Flat, no longer ashamed, no long afraid. This forum gave me that gift... no longer afraid of love, of losing love, of not being loved, of the cruel words from a cold world. No matter what, those last few scenes will always comfort me in my misery, and give me strength to carry on. This last week had been very taxing and testing. I don't think I would have lived through the stress, the emotional strain, without the emotional strength from the last two months. Sometimes, I wonder if there isn't a grand plan, designing the circumstances of my life. I just wish it didn't have all the painful stuff, but like my favorite Garth Brooks song, The Dance...I'm glad I didn't know the painful end, because then I'd miss the dance. It's better to leave it all to chance...

Like I said, my fingers just flew over the keyboard by themselves, and I have no idea if anything comes out making sense or not.

I am just grateful, thankful that real people share my words, and sometimes validate my being.

Grazias 

[babytammy7]

Grazias, amiga babytammy7. I don't know what comes over when I sit in front of the computer in this forum. My fingers begin to dance on their own and words that don't seem to belong to me come pouring out. I read what you bolded, and it amazed me, too. I didn't know I had it in me to say something like that. "To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love. [...] I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that.  This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. "

I thought I was the only one, alone with a loss that I dared not speak its name, fear of showing emotions, of love that is ashamed in the world. The loss was natural and common in this world, unfortunately, and I would have gotten over it eventually, however hard it was. But to be ashamed of it, to fear it on top of losing it, and all the regrets...That was the hardest part of all. I still have my dark and painful days, but the movie made it better, to watch it and let my feelings out, let the tears and sobs come unbidden, and let them go unashamed.

I think that was the best and most wonderful gift of all, the one that Ennis took with him when he left Lightning Flat, no longer ashamed, no long afraid. This forum gave me that gift... no longer afraid of love, of losing love, of not being loved, of the cruel words from a cold world. No matter what, those last few scenes will always comfort me in my misery, and give me strength to carry on. This last week had been very taxing and testing. I don't think I would have lived through the stress, the emotional strain, without the emotional strength from the last two months. Sometimes, I wonder if there isn't a grand plan, designing the circumstances of my life. I just wish it didn't have all the painful stuff, but like my favorite Garth Brooks song, The Dance...I'm glad I didn't know the painful end, because then I'd miss the dance. It's better to leave it all to chance...

Like I said, my fingers just flew over the keyboard by themselves, and I have no idea if anything comes out making sense or not.

I am just grateful, thankful that real people share my words, and sometimes validate my being.

Grazias 

You're always really welcome Lance!!  And we all understand you!!! 

[manolo]

We tend to be hard on lost causes, and when it comes to a love that went wrong, we're especially harsh.  For years I could hardly stand to think about, or even remember, such a love that I went through.  Since it failed catastrophically, everything about it seemed wrong in retrospect.  All I clearly remembered were instances of deliberate cruelty, conflicts that spilled over into violence, and the constant misery of being unable to express or resolve our love, which was intense.  When I first saw BBM, I saw the fact that all the negativity took up maybe one-half of one percent of the experience, most of which was as positive and fulfilling as anything can be.  The movie also made me realize that neither I nor my partner could have done anything different than what we did.  I had forgotten the context of the affair, the enormous forces that we had to contend with.  I stopped blaming anyone and tried, for once, to understand what had happened.  The movie somehow managed to "normalize" the experience, showing it as something that naturally happens to people.

Gradually I realized that the liberation from false guilt and shame, great as it was, did nothing to alter the outcome of the experience.  What happened happened, no matter how I interpreted it or felt about it.  At that point, the movie was no longer a source of consolation.  Instead, it pounded home the terrible finality of destiny.  Lost love would never come again.  Nothing could ever mend that rupture.  We would both die without ever seeing or hearing from one another again.

No doubt ideal love would never lead to such hell.  It would manifest all sorts of divine attributes.  However, I am stuck with the unshakable reality of what happened, and the best I can do is try to view it objectively, as it was, and try to understand it.  Here's where the movie gave me a lasting benefit.  It freed me from unnecessary guilt and blame, thereby giving me enough psychological energy to deal with the experience rationally, realistically, and I would even say spiritually.  It's all I can do to deal with what happened, not what might have happened or should have happened.

Manolo

[Tony]

      Manolo, have read your post, and also Lance's, and will go very lightly, as these are sacred zones, the hurts of others.  You spoke of "our
love" and that it was intense, so this must mean you were loved in return.  I think one of the sources of great pain in our lives, is not that we
weren't loved, by family or friends or lovers, but that we weren't loved enough, or we, ourselves, didn't love enough, to not do wrong.
    And then there's the human condition itself--we see evidence, every day, of the discardability of any human being--they're gone, life moves
on, and what the hell does that say about the so-called value of life, itself?  And yet, we also see the opposite-the beauty and goodness in
other people.  Religions that aren't cults speak of a war between good and evil, and we are in the battleground "where ignorant armies clash
by night...".  And there are casualties as we are supposedly marching, or limping, towards some kind of redemption, where the pieces of the
puzzle will fit together and we will find that we were greatly loved and were meant to learn, somehow, to find a way to love each other.
But we all know about religion, don't we?  Not always the consolation, expected--just mere words.  I would never say to someone who harbors
pain-look to God, because usually someone has an agenda there--believe like them.
   But I can repeat a gentle warning---there is a tugging at our thinking, when we've suffered, to build a construct of hopelessness and
defeatism.  That construct, with or without any reference to God, takes on a life of its own, and creates new pain, like a factory.
Go on strike, if you can.  Picket the factory.  May not work (doesn't work too well for me), but at least--you didn't co-operate with that which
would steal from you (and I know am repeating myself)...your right to heal.  Look for the good times, and maybe they will win out.  Tony.

[lancecowboy]

[...]

No doubt ideal love would never lead to such hell.  It would manifest all sorts of divine attributes.  However, I am stuck with the unshakable reality of what happened, and the best I can do is try to view it objectively, as it was, and try to understand it.  Here's where the movie gave me a lasting benefit.  It freed me from unnecessary guilt and blame, thereby giving me enough psychological energy to deal with the experience rationally, realistically, and I would even say spiritually.  It's all I can do to deal with what happened, not what might have happened or should have happened.

Manolo

Hi, Manolo, I am very sorry to hear of the painful experiences in your past.  I also had love affairs after losing my friend, and they were never the same. Each person is different, and each relationship is unique. I can empathize with your feelings of frustration, regret, sadness, and loneliness, but I can never fully appreciate what unique experiences that relationship meant to you. I am truly sorry. To see your words, I bolded, on the screen, is to relive an episode in my own past, when I realized life is a journey, not a destination. The love lost, is but a moment in time, and it is not the end of the journey yet, but a marker of great loving memories. Life is not about the past, but the future, as you said, not what could've, should've, but what can be, what will be. Ennis looks forward to the day when he can spend eternity with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. As someone pointed out, losing a friend feels like a giant tree falling in a forest. It leaves behind a big empty space in our heart. I am thankful each and everyday that I can fill that space with love and support from this place, from family, from people who care. Building a fortress protects us from enemies, but also shut out friends. That is one of the many valuable lessons the movie taught me.

You are always welcome here, friend.
 

[lancecowboy]

[...]
    And then there's the human condition itself--we see evidence, every day, of the discardability of any human being--they're gone, life moves on, and what the hell does that say about the so-called value of life, itself?  And yet, we also see the opposite-the beauty and goodness in
other people.  Religions that aren't cults speak of a war between good and evil, and we are in the battleground "where ignorant armies clash by night...".  And there are casualties as we are supposedly marching, or limping, towards some kind of redemption, where the pieces of the
puzzle will fit together and we will find that we were greatly loved and were meant to learn, somehow, to find a way to love each other.

But we all know about religion, don't we?  Not always the consolation, expected--just mere words.  I would never say to someone who harbors pain-look to God, because usually someone has an agenda there--believe like them.

[...] you didn't co-operate with that which would steal from you (and I know am repeating myself)...your right to heal.  Look for the good times, and maybe they will win out.  Tony.

Hi, Tony, you always bring fresh thoughts to my mind, and challenge me to new heights. Fact is, sometimes you hit so hard, I have to defend myself just to stay on my feet.

It may be better to start a new topic but fear of love and religion's role in healing are somewhat related, IMO.

You have mentioned more than once the "discardability" of human beings in the cruel world of relationships, in society. One of the most comforting part of my faith, which is neither Catholic nor Protestant, is simply being Christian, in that original meaning of the word, the follower of Christ.

In the early days of my world crashing to bits, I lost hope, lost faith, lost joy, lost fear, lost everything... Life had no meaning, because what gave it meaning was gone...no more. When a dear gay friend (actually my only gay friend) saw how devastated I was, he took me (actually more like pushed me, because I was too apathetic to care one way or another) to this church (not the same one he goes to, which is Catholic) but a non-denominational, grass-root type of church, with music being the major part of the service, with a very talented music director leading in the singing of the songs. I stopped going to church after high school, for one reason or another. The service blew me away. From the moment Amazing Grace started, to the many wonderful songs that spoke of love...How I love him because he first loved me...the tears began to flow and I was sobbing. I can never think back to those days without crying...after twenty seven years...the emotions remember.

Sorry for the rambling, but I am never coherent when I tell that part of my past. My point is that religion is not about agenda. When it IS about agenda, it is NOT religion. That's the best litmus test you can have. When someone asks you to join a church, any church, ask them if you can just observe, cool off for a while. If they really love you, they will let you go, and still care about you. If it is about their agenda, they will do anything to keep you there, to do what THEY want. It's as clear as night and day.

After the first moving services that opened my heart again, allowing me to grief so openly, without shame...I started reading the Bible again, like I did in high school, and read passages that I knew, but did not fully understand. The chapter  in John 14...the Comforter...is what this forum is for me now, what that church for me was then. When I left Vancouver for career reasons, I knew I left a piece of my heart in that church, with the people in that church. I did not realize how badly I missed it, until I joined a fundamentalist church in a new city, more out of desperation, out of loneliness, and even thought it was possible to go straight, or at least celibate, just to fit in. Loneliness sometimes made me do really stupid things. To make a long story short, good intentions are not enough, where there is not love. True religion is like true love. There is no greater love than this, for a man to lay down his own life, for the life of his friend. When dogma is more important than compassion, when the bottom line is more important than the people, when...but I digress.

Truth is, true religion will always find a place in this cold cruel world, where people are discarded, discounted, discredited for one reason or another. True religion is the one place where anyone, is welcome, where anyone can find a home, where anyone will feel belong, where anyone will feel loved, without reservation, as is. True love and true religion are so intertwined in my mind that I cannot think of one, without thinking of the other. True love is meaningless without eternity, and eternity is meaningless without true love. Did I really just write that? Like I said, Tony, you challenge me to new territories, and new heights. I love you all, MG, tpe, et al for this very reason.

Fear of Love...like that old song that I just quoted, and remembered every day, like those two shirts...I love him because he first loved me...His loved conquered my fear... :\'( :\'( :\'(

Sorry, that's all for now.

 

[Tony]

    My good friend, Lance, you said more in that post, than in most any you have ever written.  I might, however, have been misunderstood.
I do agree that religion can play a central role in healing the casualties of fear of love.  It's just that I felt it was not my place, in showing good
will to you and manolo, to assume any faith background.
    When the invasion of Lebanon occurred, last year, the youth group at a local synagogue held a car-wash to raise funds for the many Arab
civilian victims, and they did this even with incoming rockets still pounding Israel.  If you really love, sometimes you have to drop the extreme
differences, and just....help.  I did not want to give any offense to either of you by presuming a faith background.  Just wanted to show good will.
   By the way, since "Amazing Grace" helped you heal, you might consider the music of these new radical monks, John Michael Talbot, for example.
Download "Be Not Afraid", and "I Will Lift You up on Eagles Wings" and see if you survive a new round of healing.
   How far are we from the topic?  Maybe too far, maybe dead on target.   BBM has both opened wounds in us and healed them.  Fear of love
may have been a central theme of this love story, but it is also a central theme in our lives.  We aren't cardboard.  We bleed.  It should not
be wrong for us to at least mention the healing possible, even as our primary focus is the damage.  You did well to cover that.
   Meanwhile, am thinking over some of the many posts and may try a few, kind of footnote type ideas soon.  And there seems to be some
ferment out there that shows up, unexpectedly, so, no telling where digging around in this topic area will lead.  We're Brokies.  Anything
could develop on this particular theme, or not much more at all.  Again, Lance, you did well.         Tony.

[lancecowboy]

No worries, Tony, if I misunderstood your post.  I am glad I will be forgiven in this place if I had given offense rambling long and off topic. As I said in that last post, your words sometimes push me to explore new territories, finding places in myself that I hid from for many years. I haven't said anything from that post, ever, except  to my therapist over fifteen years ago, and even then, it was only about the part on love ashamed and unable to grief, then finding the release in church. My experiences in the past two months had given me fresh perspective on life, and rehashing it again is good for my soul. I thank you for the push, and the recommended music. I love Josh Groban and his "You Raise Me Up", as well as his many others, "You Are Loved" etc.

I also appreciate your desire not to assume any faith background, to embrace the separation of church and state. I salute, respect, and applaud that fundamental principle of just society. However, I might have misunderstood you when you began to mix religion and Religion interchangeably without any distinction. To me, there is religion organized by men, susceptible to all the ills and sickness of men's follies, and then there is Religion born of love, from God. It is not necessarily any one dogma, one creed, one religion. It is simply the love of the creator for the beauty of the created. One reason why I mentioned John 14 was because in mentioning the Comforter, it also mentioned "in heaven there are many rooms". I choose to believe that a just and loving God would not care which denomination or religion we came from, as long as we love one another. I know that is contrary to conventional doctrine and verges on blasphemy but that's what I believe. Sorry that this is going way off topic, but you pushed, I responded, you replied, and we are here.

Reading what I wrote in that last post, I am amazed at how much hurt and pain I hid within. Sometimes, I just have to pretend everything is normal just to carry on, hiding everything within a wall. It helps a great deal to have this forum to vent, to release, to let go. It is probably why I love this place, why my fingers flew and dance all their own, waiting for the chance to emerge from their darkness. But sometimes, it is better to let old wounds heal, instead of digging up old stories.

I love Brokeback Mountain the movie because it is a gentle loving story that healed while it exposed the truth, that treaded gently and soothingly while presenting a dark side of society, as LJN pointed out, all the male figures in Jack's life belittled him, tore at him, discarded, discredited, disrespected, playing 'em stupid roles of dominant/submissive outside of the bedroom. Ooops, now I've done it. I'd get kicked off for sure...

Anyway, I think I will hide for a while...

Thanks for starting this thread, Tony, and even if we don't see eye-to-eye, or communicate on the same wavelength, we can still respect each other's opinions, however different they may be. Viva la difference!

 
 

    My good friend, Lance, you said more in that post, than in most any you have ever written.  I might, however, have been misunderstood.
I do agree that religion can play a central role in healing the casualties of fear of love.  It's just that I felt it was not my place, in showing good
will to you and manolo, to assume any faith background.
    When the invasion of Lebanon occurred, last year, the youth group at a local synagogue held a car-wash to raise funds for the many Arab
civilian victims, and they did this even with incoming rockets still pounding Israel.  If you really love, sometimes you have to drop the extreme
differences, and just....help.  I did not want to give any offense to either of you by presuming a faith background.  Just wanted to show good will.
   By the way, since "Amazing Grace" helped you heal, you might consider the music of these new radical monks, John Michael Talbot, for example.
Download "Be Not Afraid", and "I Will Lift You up on Eagles Wings" and see if you survive a new round of healing.
   How far are we from the topic?  Maybe too far, maybe dead on target.   BBM has both opened wounds in us and healed them.  Fear of love
may have been a central theme of this love story, but it is also a central theme in our lives.  We aren't cardboard.  We bleed.  It should not
be wrong for us to at least mention the healing possible, even as our primary focus is the damage.  You did well to cover that.
   Meanwhile, am thinking over some of the many posts and may try a few, kind of footnote type ideas soon.  And there seems to be some
ferment out there that shows up, unexpectedly, so, no telling where digging around in this topic area will lead.  We're Brokies.  Anything
could develop on this particular theme, or not much more at all.  Again, Lance, you did well.         Tony.

[manolo]

Someone wondered whether the great love of my life was one-sided or reciprocal.  This brings up some interesting points.  I remember a line from a play, though I don't remember which play, that went "There is no bliss like the bliss of unrequited love."  That's a rather extreme formulation, but I don't think the really heavy pain of love comes from not being loved back.  The really terrible pain comes when the love is largely mutual, as with Jack and Ennis.  I don't imagine Jack suffered much over the rodeo clown who spurned him, except for momentary embarrassment. I've heard people say that the boys in BBM were lucky that their love was mutual.  Maybe so, but there would have been no story and no movie if it hadn't been.  I would have forgotten the great love of my life a long time ago had it been like the dozens of cases where I liked someone more than they could like me.

As for the spiritual side of life, I think we all reach a point at times when we realize that there must be something bigger, deeper, and more important behind the life we're living.  Spiritual aspirations are probably hard-wired into our brains.  In fact, I do have a spiritual practice, but it isn't designed to give me consolation.  It's about renunciation and sacrifice.  In fact, to adopt a serious spiritual practice seems to me to require amplifying one's suffering a great deal, certainly not reducing it any.  I don't think anyone reading this is likely to agree with me, and that's okay.  We've all been deeply touched by a powerful movie, and it's something well worth talking about.  We can agree on that at least. 

Manolo