Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[lancecowboy]

Someone wondered whether the great love of my life was one-sided or reciprocal.  This brings up some interesting points.  I remember a line from a play, though I don't remember which play, that went "There is no bliss like the bliss of unrequited love."  That's a rather extreme formulation, but I don't think the really heavy pain of love comes from not being loved back.  The really terrible pain comes when the love is largely mutual, as with Jack and Ennis.  I don't imagine Jack suffered much over the rodeo clown who spurned him, except for momentary embarrassment. I've heard people say that the boys in BBM were lucky that their love was mutual.  Maybe so, but there would have been no story and no movie if it hadn't been.  I would have forgotten the great love of my life a long time ago had it been like the dozens of cases where I liked someone more than they could like me.

As for the spiritual side of life, I think we all reach a point at times when we realize that there must be something bigger, deeper, and more important behind the life we're living.  Spiritual aspirations are probably hard-wired into our brains.  In fact, I do have a spiritual practice, but it isn't designed to give me consolation.  It's about renunciation and sacrifice.  In fact, to adopt a serious spiritual practice seems to me to require amplifying one's suffering a great deal, certainly not reducing it any.  I don't think anyone reading this is likely to agree with me, and that's okay.  We've all been deeply touched by a powerful movie, and it's something well worth talking about.  We can agree on that at least. 

Manolo

Hi, Manolo,

I tried googling the line from the play but didn't get very far with minimum effort. It sounds like something Oscar Wilde may say, but I don't know for sure. I ain't no English Lit. major.    I don't agree with that line, by the way. Jack's love for Ennis was at many different levels. One of these was the desire to live together on a ranch, living the sweet life. IMO, the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain was this unrequited love caused by the third person in this relationship, keeping Ennis from returning that love. Who is this third person? As LJN and Tony pointed out, the pink elephant is society. It stood in the way of Ennis loving Jack back the way he wanted to, in the form of his father's admonitions, in the form of the snide remarks from Aguirre, in the form of all the little homophobic utterances and systemic prejudices that kept our cowboys apart.

I agree with you that spirituality is in our biology, as evident by the many diverse cultures and societies that independently developed spiritual practices, sometimes with remarkably similar elements. Whatever the reasons, without getting off topic, one of which is certainly the role of healing in times of suffering.

I don't know if spirituality REQUIRES suffering, or if suffering amplifies the NEED for spirituality, or more likely, IMO, suffering opens our heart to the healing effects of a spiritual outlook. Many anecdotes exist where people of hard characters, non-spiritual to the core, would one day simply change totally, for whatever reason. I think it has to do with some inner suffering that opened the door to the heart, to the soul. Amazing Grace was written by a former slave trader, etc. I think Ennis at the point of breaking down, falling to his knees was also at this moment, when he faced the truth about his own feelings for Jack, their relationship together, and how they can carry on forward into the future. He was contemplating this over his apple pie in the diner, when Cassie walked in, happy as her usual self, and broke down in tears saying "Girls don't fall in love for fun." I will always feel a special connection with the expression on Ennis' face at that very moment as he watched the second person who loved him walking out of his life. With great suffering comes great awakening. IMO, Ennis woke up to the fact of Jack's love for him, and his love for Jack. It wasn't about fun, it was about two souls completing each other. I don't presume to judge what you had with the love of your life. Each relationship and each person is unique.

I hope you find the two shirts in your Brokeback Mountain, and live long in the loving memories of the love of your life. I know I am thankful that the movie and this forum have given to me what the two shirts have given Ennis - closure, hope, peace, and in a way, by looking forward into the future, joy and comfort, almost contentment as Ennis looked up into the heaven, but I think that will have to wait until I get to a Brokie meet.

 


I

[manhattangirl]

Did it mattered to Ennis that Alma loved him, or Cassie loved him?  Did it make him feel obligated to each in some strange way?  Did he feel short changed in some way in his marriage to Alma, and did he realize that through Cassie, that Jack might feel that he was looked at all those years as "fun". 

What was it in Ennis that took the shirts for him to understand that he was loved, and loved all those years. 

Did it go to his low self esteem, his feeling of unworthiness to be loved, or his pure fear of committing totally fully to a love which may cause, in his mind, his own death. 

Not saying "I love you" is not surprising, these men said this every time they saw each other for twenty years just by being there like clock work.    The problem comes in when you question the fact that you are worthy of this kind of devotion, and sacrifice, did Ennis feel worthy, but at the same time knew instinctively he couldn't live without Jack, so threatens him with death, it's easier to say, then " please give yourself only to me, and no one else",  this means commitment.

There, to me anyway, an air of suspicion that plagued Ennis,  there was already so many he lost in his life, that towards the end Alma, Jr. was all he had left, and finally was wise enough to understand this and grasp hold of it.

 

[tpe]

Gradually I realized that the liberation from false guilt and shame, great as it was, did nothing to alter the outcome of the experience.  What happened happened, no matter how I interpreted it or felt about it.  At that point, the movie was no longer a source of consolation.  Instead, it pounded home the terrible finality of destiny.  Lost love would never come again.  Nothing could ever mend that rupture.  We would both die without ever seeing or hearing from one another again.

No doubt ideal love would never lead to such hell.  It would manifest all sorts of divine attributes.  However, I am stuck with the unshakable reality of what happened, and the best I can do is try to view it objectively, as it was, and try to understand it.  Here's where the movie gave me a lasting benefit.  It freed me from unnecessary guilt and blame, thereby giving me enough psychological energy to deal with the experience rationally, realistically, and I would even say spiritually.  It's all I can do to deal with what happened, not what might have happened or should have happened.

Manolo

A wounded deer leaps highest,
I've heard the hunter tell;
'Tis but the ecstasy of death,
And then the brake is still.

[lancecowboy]

Did it mattered to Ennis that Alma loved him, or Cassie loved him?  Did it make him feel obligated to each in some strange way?  Did he feel short changed in some way in his marriage to Alma, and did he realize that through Cassie, that Jack might feel that he was looked at all those years as "fun". 

What was it in Ennis that took the shirts for him to understand that he was loved, and loved all those years. 

Did it go to his low self esteem, his feeling of unworthiness to be loved, or his pure fear of committing totally fully to a love which may cause, in his mind, his own death. 

Not saying "I love you" is not surprising, these men said this every time they saw each other for twenty years just by being there like clock work.    The problem comes in when you question the fact that you are worthy of this kind of devotion, and sacrifice, did Ennis feel worthy, but at the same time knew instinctively he couldn't live without Jack, so threatens him with death, it's easier to say, then " please give yourself only to me, and no one else",  this means commitment.

There, to me anyway, an air of suspicion that plagued Ennis,  there was already so many he lost in his life, that towards the end Alma, Jr. was all he had left, and finally was wise enough to understand this and grasp hold of it.
 

I think you answered you own question, MG. Ennis felt unworthy of the kind of commitment, devotion that Jack was asking, and was afraid to give in to Jack, knowing that he would give in totally, without holding back. That's the kind of person Ennis is, all or nothing. I think the shirts were merely milestones or the tangible physical reminder to Ennis, that Jack kept this for twenty years, that Jack loved him from the beginning, even after that punch. Ennis thought Jack only came back because he was unhappy with Lureen's old man, only came to visit and have some fun, like they used to. He did not realize how much Jack missed him, even when he was dancing with Lureen that first dance, he was reminded of Ennis. All Ennis knew was that for four years, Jack carried on with life without him. Even though he came back, and with some kind of explanation, it still wasn't enough to convince him that Jack "loved" him. Ennis didn't know what love was, not Jack, not Cassie. As someone pointed out, Ennis having never experienced much love in his life, didn't recognize it until too late. His expression as Cassie walked out the diner, was remarkably similar to the one he had when he found the shirts. I don't know if Heath did this on purpose, or Ang Lee asked for it, but what ever the reason, that expression of recognition, of shocking discovery, is the one that always haunt me into sobbing uncontrollably. Now that I understand it, I can see why it has such an impact on me, and perhaps the last remainder of the movie that puts me to tears will lose its power, NOT. I will let you know next week.

[Tony]

     Was fiddling around on another thread about the meaning of Ennis' last words, and that got me to thinking about the title of the topic here-
"Fear of Love...."  and especially the word "fear".  Sometimes there's another word closely tied into the word you have used, and even though
they don't mean the same thing, they're connected.  The word am thinking of is---risk.  Sometimes you fear something because of the risk
involved.
    If we go there, we might see more about the two lovers, as in, Ennis was not much of a risk-taker, but Jack was.  Jack was a rodeo cowboy,
which is very risky.  He was forward with people-also risky.  And he was willing to take the risk of moving around, to Signal, to Texas, or even
to Mexico.
   Ennis, on the other hand, wouldn't risk giving up the bird in the hand (Alma), based on a summer affair with Jack, wouldn't try for the power
plant job, wouldn't risk his heart to Cassie, and darned sure wasn't going to risk moving away from where he had lived for so long.
   For Ennis to take risks, he had to get all fired up, and then he WOULD risk---a lot.  Fighting the two bikers was a risk, but he was angry.
Probably the biggest risk he ever took was going to the tent on the second night, for that wasn't fear of love, that was taking a risk that he
would not be understood, or that he could not handle his own feelings.
   Which leads me that enduring question, what if Jack had not died?  How would he have responded to the meltdown of their previous encounter,
by brushing off Jack's complaint, or moving to compromise, to a happier ending?  And there the two separate areas converge again...fear of love,
meaning, can you finally accept the fullness of the love, and fear of risk----could it work out?  I'd like to think his emotional breakdown (and it
was huge) laid the groundwork for Ennis finally taking a further risk.  Based on-he had to get fired up, to do something.
   Would like to think that was a complete emotional breakdown (sure looked like one to me) and though Annie has him returning to his same old
self right away, the film suggests more.  I'd like to think the film had him already there- not afrain of love, anymore, and willing to take a risk
and willing, that next time they were to meet, he knew full well, he had to have a better answer for Jack.  I think he'd changed, but, that's
something we are all going to see differently, I guess.

[hpv]

"Fear of Love...."  and especially the word "fear".  Sometimes there's another word closely tied into the word you have used, and even though they don't mean the same thing, they're connected.  The word am thinking of is---risk.  Sometimes you fear something because of the risk involved.
    If we go there, we might see more about the two lovers, as in, Ennis was not much of a risk-taker, but Jack was.  Jack was a rodeo cowboy,
which is very risky.  He was forward with people-also risky.  And he was willing to take the risk of moving around, to Signal, to Texas, or even
to Mexico.
 For Ennis to take risks, he had to get all fired up, and then he WOULD risk---a lot.  Fighting the two bikers was a risk, but he was angry.
Probably the biggest risk he ever took was going to the tent on the second night, for that wasn't fear of love, that was taking a risk that he would not be understood, or that he could not handle his own feelings.

I think that you are correct about the risk thing ..

[tpe]

I think that you are correct about the risk thing ..

I second.  I think Welshwitch also made a similar comment somehwere about how each one differed in the element of risk.  Ennis' "fear" was probably tempered by a healthy dose of caution -- something that probably made Jack's behavior seem reckless or foolhardy to him.

[lancecowboy]

I second.  I think Welshwitch also made a similar comment somehwere about how each one differed in the element of risk.  Ennis' "fear" was probably tempered by a healthy dose of caution -- something that probably made Jack's behavior seem reckless or foolhardy to him.

Yes, and that is what appeals to each other in their relationship. Ennis looking with admiration as Jack ride the mare, like a rodeo cowboy would, taking unnecessary risks. Jack following Ennis' lead in setting up camp, doing all the cowboy stuff, having some stability in his roving life around the plains. They love this opposite about each other, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the relationship. Jack had to learn to be more cautious, and Ennis had to learn to take more risks.

Unfortunately, Jack took too much risk in Mexico or with Randall or whereever he got the tire iron, and Ennis took too little risk, to dream and live the sweet life.

[tpe]

Yes, and that is what appeals to each other in their relationship. Ennis looking with admiration as Jack ride the mare, like a rodeo cowboy would, taking unnecessary risks. Jack following Ennis' lead in setting up camp, doing all the cowboy stuff, having some stability in his roving life around the plains. They love this opposite about each other, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the relationship. Jack had to learn to be more cautious, and Ennis had to learn to take more risks.

Unfortunately, Jack took too much risk in Mexico or with Randall or whereever he got the tire iron, and Ennis took too little risk, to dream and live the sweet life.

Indeed.  Fear is not always a bad thing, no?  Even fear of love, perhaps, if that love becomes self-destructive.

[Tony]

    Have been wallowing around in the other threads, and, boy, are they getting good.  At any rate, thanks to hpv, tpe, and Lance for seeing
the connection between love and risk.
    But, at the risk of being simplistic, is there any consensus on the fight on the mountain, itself?  You should, I would hope, admit there was
very little warning, and if you could warp back to your first viewing, it did not make much sense.
   Here, I've suggested that Ennis was brooding on that hill not only over the affair being cut short, but because Jack was inadvertently giving
out the wrong signals and therefore provoking rage.  Still believe that was the trigger to horseplay turning ugly, but I wonder if Ennis might not
also have been fighting off---his love itself.  Trying to externalize the threat from within.  It's not much, but I was wondering if we could come
to a reasonably sturdy understanding of that fight.  If not as resentment that Jack didn't seem to be suffering much, then as a metaphor made
real of the fear of love within Ennis?  What other reasons for the fight emerging, if not somewhere in these two?  Is it wrong to try for a
general consensus, absent any other theories?  Are there any?  Very small issue, maybe, but leads out from there to all the rest.

[manhattangirl]

Trying to convince himself it was Aguirre pulling them off the mountain before they were suppose to go, that it wasn't right, and Jack's offer of a loan added to his hurt.  When it was being pulled away from Jack, and the realization of this was building inside him, the time of feeling like "king of the world", was ending.  It's hard to expect Ennis to process all that was going on inside him.

The play fight scene is a perfect example of what happens when his inability to process what going on in his mind turns to rage.   Jack changed him, and he was happy, it's over.  The planned marriage, the planned next logical step in Ennis planned life was taking over.    The rage emerged.   Ennis desire for Jack  sexually, and emotionally in his mind were being ripped away, and Jack was the victim of his rage, Ennis wanted to make love to him, but he hurt him instead, the only way he knew how to handle the inevitable.   

I don't think anything Jack could have said or done at that moment would have changed anything, Ennis's rage would have taken over.  Even if Jack could have said a word of comfort, a touch on the shoulder,  Ennis still would have struck him down.

My take anyway.   

[tpe]

    Have been wallowing around in the other threads, and, boy, are they getting good.  At any rate, thanks to hpv, tpe, and Lance for seeing
the connection between love and risk.
    But, at the risk of being simplistic, is there any consensus on the fight on the mountain, itself?  You should, I would hope, admit there was
very little warning, and if you could warp back to your first viewing, it did not make much sense.
   Here, I've suggested that Ennis was brooding on that hill not only over the affair being cut short, but because Jack was inadvertently giving
out the wrong signals and therefore provoking rage.  Still believe that was the trigger to horseplay turning ugly, but I wonder if Ennis might not
also have been fighting off---his love itself.  Trying to externalize the threat from within.  It's not much, but I was wondering if we could come
to a reasonably sturdy understanding of that fight.  If not as resentment that Jack didn't seem to be suffering much, then as a metaphor made
real of the fear of love within Ennis?  What other reasons for the fight emerging, if not somewhere in these two?  Is it wrong to try for a
general consensus, absent any other theories?  Are there any?  Very small issue, maybe, but leads out from there to all the rest.

I think the fight scene is very connected with the thme of the fear to love openly.  I think that in this scene,  Jack was trying to openly express affection, in a playful manner, such as lovers often do.  But Ennis would have none of it -- he was afraid to acknowledge openly how he truly felt.

 

[hpv]

I think the fight scene is very connected with the thme of the fear to love openly.  I think that in this scene,  Jack was trying to openly express affection, in a playful manner, such as lovers often do.  But Ennis would have none of it -- he was afraid to acknowledge openly how he truly felt.

All the discussion of of Ennis's fear of loving Jack openly,and his reluctant way off leaving the mountain, that lead to the fight in the first place,reminded me of a line from the short story :

"As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall. "

[Tony]

    Thanks for the replies. Tpe seems to be thinking along the lines I was, but Manhattangirl and hpv suggested more going on, so, my trying for
a final definition can't be supported, and probably, there shouldn't be one---that steals from the continuing energy force from the movie.
   Am now going to move into a new and controversial zone with regard to fear of love, as in---what KIND of love?  There can be conflicts there.
As "a force of nature", love is generic--the bonding of two people usually, but sometimes an outward force towards many people.  But between
two people---what specific KIND of love?
   In telling the story of the hillbilly lad, in an earlier post, more came back to me in my memory of those days.  In fact, before the disasters hit,
his falling out of a tree and getting mangled, and my parents suddenly ill, he was beginning to make his move, and I sensed that within a few weeks,
he would, as winter was heading in, be making shy overtures to come in from the cold and be with another human being.
   Problem.  Huge problem.  His age.  Owing to the fact that he was, in fact, someone who had been alone in the woods for so long, and also not
socially interacting, I could not tell, even up close, if he was 15 y.o., or maybe even 22 y.o.  Nor could anyone else.  I also knew I had strong
empathy for him and was willing to make a commitment.  But, if he was 15, my impulses were fatherly, and there was no chance I could breach
the line and see him sexually.  Yet...if he was 22, he sure looked like he needed some snugglebunnies, some loving, and if he had made a move
there, I was vulnerable as he was attractive.  I DO remember beginning the process of drawing lines in my mind---away from physical
companionship towards taking on the responsibility, of being a transitional father until he got integrated into society and moved on.  So, what KIND
of love?  I remember that dilemma approaching.
    And this dilemma, I have begun to believe, was there for Ennis.  His relationship with Jack was multi-dimensional, and Annie has it right there,
easy to see-a friendship love, at first.  Overwhelming, because of his loneliness.  Moved to a sexual relationship.  Then to romantic/sexual/erotic
in SNIT.  But he could never use the "L" word, so he was afraid of the ultimate--romantic/emotional.  And that last type can survive anything,
even the aging process and loss of physical attractions.
   Much har-de-har-har over Ennis referring to their meetings as fishing trips.  Anyone ever stop to think, some part of him DID see it that way?
Two guys, male tribal companionship?  Sexual intercourse would have been 1% of their time spent together.
  So-I had fear, or puzzlement over what KIND of love could develop as that hillbilly began to make his move.  I could handle either, but they are
very separate areas of the mind and I remember opting for safety, for ethical reasons.  Re-programming my mind.
   Did Ennis have this additional dilemma?  I think he did.  He wanted friendship first and foremost, of the deepest kind.  The others, he also needed
but fought.  There are different kinds of love, and, if I can make this one contribution to understanding Ennis, it would be that he was having
trouble untangling them, and would juggle them, and did fear, greatly, that one strand---the romantic/emotional.
   I went into a difficult area.  I hope it isn't too troubling.  What KIND of love should there be?  And Ennis didn't know how to resolve that.

[Emzan]

  I'm new here

I think that Ennis knew that Jack loved him before he found out about the shirts, but he didn't knew that he loved him so much as he actually did. and Ennis loved Jack even  tho we didn't hear him say that in the movie and Jack knew that too.
I just feel really bad about that they were afraid (most Ennis) about showing their feelings in public :\'(. If two people love one another (gay or straight) just let them be happy with the person they are with

[tpe]

I'm new here

I think that Ennis knew that Jack loved him before he found out about the shirts, but he didn't knew that he loved him so much as he actually did. and Ennis loved Jack even  tho we didn't hear him say that in the movie and Jack knew that too.
I just feel really bad about that they were afraid (most Ennis) about showing their feelings in public :\'(. If two people love one another (gay or straight) just let them be happy with the person they are with

Welcome Emzan. 

I agree.  I think there was a part of Ennis that supressed his true feelings deep down. And as Tony said, the love was multi-dimensional, or multi-level.  Ennis wasn't conscious of all the ramifications.

hpv's quote puts everything into perspective though: no matter what level Ennis was currently working on, it was a sure, inevitable fall.

[ayasha]

I've tried to read all the posts in this thread  during last week, but I haven't managed to be updated...so excuse me if I repeat any argument used before. Anyway, I'll still try to read everything here since I find this thread very interesting, it's my fav topic I guess.

About these last posts, I agree love is multilevel, as we human beings are. There's a part of our personalities which is all we really are, what we feel, want, love, need, desire...then there's another part of ourselves which is all the cultural 'regulations' like...what is good and bad, acceptable or not, prejudices, taboos etc. Both levels are necessary parts of ourselves, and must be 'balanced', for instance, we can do what we want but we know we must not kill to get it. Sorry for this long introduction, a bit of Freud, excuse me 

In Ennis case, there wasn't a balance. His prejudices were so strong that not only predominate, but almost deleted his true being. In other words, Ennis was settled in his prejudices so much, that he was convinced ONLY that was himself, denying at a very deep level, all the things he didn’t like, like his love for Jack and Jack’s love for him.

It’s very possible being settled in that position a whole life. Ennis was for 20 years (during his relationship with Jack and even before). Losing Jack was such a big shock that his personality, the one he’d always thought  he was, stumbled and fell: During so many years that repressed part it grew up in the shadow like woodworms inside a wooden structure. Jack’s death pulled everything down. That was when he became aware of everything he’d always knew: they loved each other  :\'(

[Tony]

    Hi, Emzan, and welcome to the forum!  Ayashae, it still is so very strange, that neither knew how much they were loved.  So, I've got a dumb
question.....what would have happened if Ennis had at least visited Lightning Flat, just once, in all those years?  Would Jack have hid the shirts,
or was he always waiting and hoping for that visit, so that there could be a non-verbal statement to Ennis?  Makes you wonder......

[manhattangirl]

    Thanks for the replies. Tpe seems to be thinking along the lines I was, but Manhattangirl and hpv suggested more going on, so, my trying for
a final definition can't be supported, and probably, there shouldn't be one---that steals from the continuing energy force from the movie.
   Am now going to move into a new and controversial zone with regard to fear of love, as in---what KIND of love?  There can be conflicts there.
As "a force of nature", love is generic--the bonding of two people usually, but sometimes an outward force towards many people.  But between
two people---what specific KIND of love?
   In telling the story of the hillbilly lad, in an earlier post, more came back to me in my memory of those days.  In fact, before the disasters hit,
his falling out of a tree and getting mangled, and my parents suddenly ill, he was beginning to make his move, and I sensed that within a few weeks,
he would, as winter was heading in, be making shy overtures to come in from the cold and be with another human being.
   Problem.  Huge problem.  His age.  Owing to the fact that he was, in fact, someone who had been alone in the woods for so long, and also not
socially interacting, I could not tell, even up close, if he was 15 y.o., or maybe even 22 y.o.  Nor could anyone else.  I also knew I had strong
empathy for him and was willing to make a commitment.  But, if he was 15, my impulses were fatherly, and there was no chance I could breach
the line and see him sexually.  Yet...if he was 22, he sure looked like he needed some snugglebunnies, some loving, and if he had made a move
there, I was vulnerable as he was attractive.  I DO remember beginning the process of drawing lines in my mind---away from physical
companionship towards taking on the responsibility, of being a transitional father until he got integrated into society and moved on.  So, what KIND
of love?  I remember that dilemma approaching.
    And this dilemma, I have begun to believe, was there for Ennis.  His relationship with Jack was multi-dimensional, and Annie has it right there,
easy to see-a friendship love, at first.  Overwhelming, because of his loneliness.  Moved to a sexual relationship.  Then to romantic/sexual/erotic
in SNIT.  But he could never use the "L" word, so he was afraid of the ultimate--romantic/emotional.  And that last type can survive anything,
even the aging process and loss of physical attractions.
   Much har-de-har-har over Ennis referring to their meetings as fishing trips.  Anyone ever stop to think, some part of him DID see it that way?
Two guys, male tribal companionship?  Sexual intercourse would have been 1% of their time spent together.
  So-I had fear, or puzzlement over what KIND of love could develop as that hillbilly began to make his move.  I could handle either, but they are
very separate areas of the mind and I remember opting for safety, for ethical reasons.  Re-programming my mind.
   Did Ennis have this additional dilemma?  I think he did.  He wanted friendship first and foremost, of the deepest kind.  The others, he also needed
but fought.  There are different kinds of love, and, if I can make this one contribution to understanding Ennis, it would be that he was having
trouble untangling them, and would juggle them, and did fear, greatly, that one strand---the romantic/emotional.
   I went into a difficult area.  I hope it isn't too troubling.  What KIND of love should there be?  And Ennis didn't know how to resolve that.

You talk of Ennis as if he may have been a "victim".  He wanted one thing, friendship love, but could be a victim of the romantic/emotional.  Unwilling, unwanted, but made to  feel these things as if against his nature,  so he try to fight it.   Then we have to view Jack as an enabler of his weakness, the romantic and emotional.   

Wouldn't change the meaning of everything?

[Tony]

    Hi, Manhattangirl----I plead guilty to a long post, not guilty to saying Ennis was seduced by Jack to what he did not need or want.
He was most comfortable. IMO, with a friendship love, but he ached for the other levels of love and both needed and feared them. That is in
the post you quoted, if you check closely.  You do keep me on my toes, though.  Should have been more clear.  Hope we're on the same page
now.  Tony.

[lancecowboy]

I've tried to read all the posts in this thread  during last week, but I haven't managed to be updated...so excuse me if I repeat any argument used before. Anyway, I'll still try to read everything here since I find this thread very interesting, it's my fav topic I guess.

About these last posts, I agree love is multilevel, as we human beings are. There's a part of our personalities which is all we really are, what we feel, want, love, need, desire...then there's another part of ourselves which is all the cultural 'regulations' like...what is good and bad, acceptable or not, prejudices, taboos etc. Both levels are necessary parts of ourselves, and must be 'balanced', for instance, we can do what we want but we know we must not kill to get it. Sorry for this long introduction, a bit of Freud, excuse me 

In Ennis case, there wasn't a balance. His prejudices were so strong that not only predominate, but almost deleted his true being. In other words, Ennis was settled in his prejudices so much, that he was convinced ONLY that was himself, denying at a very deep level, all the things he didn’t like, like his love for Jack and Jack’s love for him.

It’s very possible being settled in that position a whole life. Ennis was for 20 years (during his relationship with Jack and even before). Losing Jack was such a big shock that his personality, the one he’d always thought  he was, stumbled and fell: During so many years that repressed part it grew up in the shadow like woodworms inside a wooden structure. Jack’s death pulled everything down. That was when he became aware of everything he’d always knew: they loved each other  :\'(

Thanks, Ayashae, this makes a lot of sense to me, in terms of the true Ennis being held hostage by the prejudices of society and culture. With other people, after a loved one's death, their real self fall apart and get into depression etc. With Ennis, his self was an artificial one created by society, a front that is bound by chains and prejudices. When Jack died, those chains fell away, his real self became liberated.

[lancecowboy]

You talk of Ennis as if he may have been a "victim".  He wanted one thing, friendship love, but could be a victim of the romantic/emotional.  Unwilling, unwanted, but made to  feel these things as if against his nature,  so he try to fight it.   Then we have to view Jack as an enabler of his weakness, the romantic and emotional.   

Wouldn't change the meaning of everything?

I can't imagine Ennis being a victim of anything. He may be susceptible to romantic seduction, but he knew his self enough to stay his ground when Jack wanted more, wanted to live together. Victims are made to feel powerless. Ennis may feel he cannot change the world or had little influence in the world, but he is always powerful in his own world, which is the ranch. Alma really had to pull out all the stops to get Ennis to move. And he made her pay when he took her from behind.

You raise an interesting point about Jack the enabler of romantic and emotional lonesome men. If that's what enablers do, then please send them my way. I'd love to be enabled in my romantic emotional weaknesses. 

[manhattangirl]

Tony,

I keep you on your toes, well my friend, you frighten me sometimes, because I don't where you'll take me.


The other levels of love, the need and the fear, isn't this true of all of us.   Some of us start on that level friendship, than it turns into something else.  We may not know how to deal with it.  We fear rejection if does move to another level.   We fear ourselves because it becomes so overwhelming, that we can hardly breathe.   We start to think in logical terms of why it wouldn't work, and how it could mess up everything in our neat little lives.  Than we  succumb to it, taking risks, opening  ourselves to the one we love, and confess short of making total fools of ourselves, that we do have more to offer the other person.

Did Ennis fall short of this, is this your premise?  Please help me to understand.  Because for me he did. 




  

[manhattangirl]

You raise an interesting point about Jack the enabler of romantic and emotional lonesome men. If that's what enablers do, then please send them my way. I'd love to be enabled in my romantic emotional weaknesses. 

What you wrote made me think of Randall.   

[tpe]

I've tried to read all the posts in this thread  during last week, but I haven't managed to be updated...so excuse me if I repeat any argument used before. Anyway, I'll still try to read everything here since I find this thread very interesting, it's my fav topic I guess.

About these last posts, I agree love is multilevel, as we human beings are. There's a part of our personalities which is all we really are, what we feel, want, love, need, desire...then there's another part of ourselves which is all the cultural 'regulations' like...what is good and bad, acceptable or not, prejudices, taboos etc. Both levels are necessary parts of ourselves, and must be 'balanced', for instance, we can do what we want but we know we must not kill to get it. Sorry for this long introduction, a bit of Freud, excuse me 

In Ennis case, there wasn't a balance. His prejudices were so strong that not only predominate, but almost deleted his true being. In other words, Ennis was settled in his prejudices so much, that he was convinced ONLY that was himself, denying at a very deep level, all the things he didn’t like, like his love for Jack and Jack’s love for him.

It’s very possible being settled in that position a whole life. Ennis was for 20 years (during his relationship with Jack and even before). Losing Jack was such a big shock that his personality, the one he’d always thought  he was, stumbled and fell: During so many years that repressed part it grew up in the shadow like woodworms inside a wooden structure. Jack’s death pulled everything down. That was when he became aware of everything he’d always knew: they loved each other  :\'(

Ther is something to be said about being too comfortable with one's own fears and prejudices, no?  In the case of Ennis, perhaps he was too "at home" with his own innate fears.  As others are won't to say, we become enamoured with our own failings/shortcomings to really see them for what they are and thereby move on from there.

Jack's death was in some sense a culmination or fulfillment of all his fears, but it also served as a kind of katharsis.  That death made him realize what he had and what he had lost in the grand sceme of things.  It may have been too late for a life of love with Jack, but it did open Ennis's eyes to the depth of that love.

[Tony]

    Manhattangirl, I've never frightened anybody before in my entire life.  Annoyed the hell out of them, but nobody ever looked me over and
saw anything to fear.  Except, if something I said challenged a toxic foundation ruling their life.  Ran into a lot of that back in my days in the local
bars.  But one gal had a term for that: "Tony's on his bandstand".  That was when I would change from being happy-go-lucky to raging against
a cruelty of some kind.  Actually stood on the pool table, several times, doing this, to the great amusement of some and the growls of others.
   It looks to me like the middle paragraph of your post is what we all seem to see, that Ennis feared rejection if he told Jack of the depth of his
love and feared the adjustments in his life, if he admitted it to himself.  You also, am guessing here, seem to have reached the point where
you can see this in all of us, so that  Ennis IS all of us, only much more visible and identifiable.  That's what I've meant by saying, yes, the
homophobia issue is there and always will be, but the fears inherent in loving anyone make the film historic and enduring.
  Any tensions in your thinking, then, are, or would be, your moving past issues that are important to you--intolerance and homophobia--to
giving real equality to their love story, that it isn't just about gay issues, it's about everybody and all of our fears.  If you let that tension
be creative, you have the gift of seeing the movie on those two different levels, using each one as you see fit, where that helps.
  Tpe's post opened up a very great deal, particularly about being comfortable with one's fears.  And almost (although he didn't say this),
being self-proving, causing the final result.  His post, no pun intended, causes fear in me, because it looks to be dangerously true.
  Lance--where'd you go--Finland?

[ayasha]

    Hi, Emzan, and welcome to the forum!  Ayashae, it still is so very strange, that neither knew how much they were loved.  So, I've got a dumb
question.....what would have happened if Ennis had at least visited Lightning Flat, just once, in all those years?  Would Jack have hid the shirts,
or was he always waiting and hoping for that visit, so that there could be a non-verbal statement to Ennis?  Makes you wonder...

Not a dumb question at all Tony...it's very interesting like this thread your started In my opinion, it would have been very unlikely that Ennis would visit Lightning Flat in all those years, since he was always skipping any kind of emotional commitment with Jack. But if it had done, those shirts wouldn't have been as meaningful as they were after Jack's death. The shirts are as important as the moment he found them; (as their love was always there, but Ennis was only aware of it when he was ready to accept it)

Ennis is shocked emotionally and his repressed side is showing for the 1st time or at least the 1st time in such an intense way, he’s starting to accept it and to understand it so…he’s able to visit Jack’s parents despite his fears, he accepts going into Jack’s bedroom, into his intimacy, ready to ‘meet’ the child Jack was.  And there he finds the shirts. We all agree it’s such a powerful symbol: we have watched the whole movie, and we’re sensitive in front of it, we deeply empathise with Ennis (after all we’re in this forum for a reason! )  And Ennis understands that symbol too, because his circumstances and the transformation he’s suffering. In that sense, the shirts are the ‘drop that makes the cup filled to the brim’ (hope you understand this expression, I couldn’t find better words)

In my opinion, Ennis must have seen meaningful gestures from Jack during those 20 years, maybe as powerful as the shirts, but Jack’s love didn’t fit in Ennis’ patterns so he couldn’t understand them, accept them or interpret them in the right way.  If he had found the shirts in other circumstances, it’d have happened the same. Just my opinion anyway.

As regards Jack…I think he wouldn’t have hidden the shirts. As I see him, I think he totally understood and respected Ennis and his fears, always; but at the same time, he tried to let Ennis know what he was feeling. That’s why I’m convinced he gave him a lot of meaningful but subtle clues, like the shirts themselves. On the other hand, I think he knows Ennis loves him, but knows he’s unable to understand what’s actually going on, or even to show affection. Probably that makes him love Ennis even more. Of course, Jack must have had doubts about Ennis feelings and felt confused about his behaviours and words. Jack is patient and understanding, but he’s human too. I must finish this post here since my eyes are wet and I’m at the office.

Excuse me that I tend to ramble and  use too many words to explain my ideas…

[Tony]

   Ayashae, that was a good and thoughtful venture into the what if....Ennis had gone to Lightning Flat.  All we have to work with are the glimpses
here and there, of their 20 years of meeting when they could.
   Was thinking, tonight, how they really remained discardable males all their lives, not just in their youth.  Not even an ol' boy network to sustain
them.  And I guess if you know you are discardable, it makes you wary of revealing how dependent you are on the one you really love.  Rejected
there, you wouldn't have anything left.  That's why am sympathetic to the failures in communication and don't blame either of them  for the
outcome.  It's good to look over the failures, to try to understand better, but never to the point of harsh judgment.  That's an interesting
characteristic of Brokies--we know their faults, those two, and still keep loving them.  Sorry- am moody tonight.  Went out to the mall, and
saw something beautiful-a father with a mentally handicapped son, and they just broke my heart--a good family with great love, something our
two heroes never had.  No family, no friends----what did Ennis say?  When you ain't got nothing, you don't need nothing.  That was there in
him, somehow, long before he met Jack, and even for 20 years after. He had trouble believing there really was something, at long last.

[lancecowboy]

What you wrote made me think of Randall.   

  What?! Me? Randall?  Please! 

[manhattangirl]

What?! Me? Randall?  Please! 

No silly, of course not.  I see Jack in you, don't be upset with me.    But Jack had  something about him, that drew Randall to him,  a vulnerability?  In the same respect Jack sense a hint of danger, and was himself attracted to Randall.   Why was Jack so uncomfortable in the situation?

I think also this what contributed to Jack's restlessness with Ennis.   Jack's confession of how he missed Ennis, and the final confrontation, when Jack finally pushed the issue of their relationship.

Not saying outright what was going on with him, Jack was telling Ennis in a way, "it getting tough out there, and I'm trying to hold on to what we have."  But he's wondering what do we have?