Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[orangetruck]

Thanks orangetruck and zankou. 

Personally, I do associate Ennis's breakdown in the final confrontation with the Fear of Love.  For some reason, I also think that he intentionally, if not unconsciously, sought ways to limit the meetings with Jack -- not because he found any pleasure in all this, mind you.  I just felt that Ennis over the years had become more paranoid and more fearful about being found out.  Not that we can balme him or say that his fears were groundless.  As I mentioned in the past, Jack's death may have reinforced this notion to a certain extent...

I know what you mean. I got that sense of increased paranoia, with Ennis' resistent sort of body language starting with "Bud, there's something I been meaning to tell you." It's as if he couldn't escape the priority of his job, or the priority of excuses these days. It really saddened me, that he was still that way, that both boys were star crossed soulmates coming from the Mountain, yet both were walking down separate directions; one going forward, the other going straight; one going down the highway, the other down an irrigation ditch. 

I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
 

[Matt Nasty]

I know what you mean. I got that sense of increased paranoia, with Ennis' resistent sort of body language starting with "Bud, there's something I been meaning to tell you." It's as if he couldn't escape the priority of his job, or the priority of excuses these days. It really saddened me, that he was still that way, that both boys were star crossed soulmates coming from the Mountain, yet both were walking down separate directions; one going forward, the other going straight; one going down the highway, the other down an irrigation ditch. 

I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
 

great way og putting it justin the bit about the different directions they were going in was pretty powerful.

[tpe]

I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
 

This carries one of the great ambiguities in the film/ss, IMO.  Love and fear are so intertwined for Ennis -- we see this in the fact that his love is finally awakened by Jack's death, even as the death seems to affirm for him his own deepest fears.

[orangetruck]

This carries one of the great ambiguities in the film/ss, IMO.  Love and fear are so intertwined for Ennis -- we see this in the fact that his love is finally awakened by Jack's death, even as the death seems to affirm for him his own deepest fears.

Thomas, this was one of my biggest attractions upon discovering the story. And when I took that certain friend to see it and he mentioned afterwards, the tragedy of that hate crime, part of me felt offended that he didn't get that it wasn't carved in stone, that it was a play on fear/love and could have simply been in Ennis' head. It's such a pivotable part of the concept and yet so sly, so camouflage - - for either way he's got the two shirts. I still like to think that, with Jack's shirt inside Ennis', he has learned how to preserve love rather than fear.

[athena0204]

I know what you mean. I got that sense of increased paranoia, with Ennis' resistent sort of body language starting with "Bud, there's something I been meaning to tell you." It's as if he couldn't escape the priority of his job, or the priority of excuses these days. It really saddened me, that he was still that way, that both boys were star crossed soulmates coming from the Mountain, yet both were walking down separate directions; one going forward, the other going straight; one going down the highway, the other down an irrigation ditch. 

I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
 

Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to  be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.

[Matt Nasty]

Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to  be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.

hmmm i have to admit i think if id seen what ennis had seen my fears woukd have been the same

[orangetruck]

Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to  be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.

buurRrr.. so true. 

[Matt Nasty]

hmmm i just wish that it was possible for ennis to do that and go back 20 years im pretty sure he would flee the country and go in to hiding if neccisary to stay with jack for ever.

[orangetruck]

hmmm i have to admit i think if id seen what ennis had seen my fears woukd have been the same

This is <OT> but, I keep equating you with Ennis, zan. I think it was another similar post, it sounded like you explaining yourself, and I had to look again to see that you were talking about Ennis instead. Then again, maybe it's just your big love towards Jake, who knows..
As for the topic, it nukes my heart seeing Jack catch Ennis on his way down, at the end of Final Confrontation. It says so much.  

[Matt Nasty]

This is <OT> but, I keep equating you with Ennis, zan. I think it was another similar post, it sounded like you explaining yourself, and I had to look again to see that you were talking about Ennis instead. Then again, maybe it's just your big love towards Jake, who knows..
As for the topic, it nukes my heart seeing Jack catch Ennis on his way down, at the end of Final Confrontation. It says so much.  

hmm thats pretty damn powerful ennis' break down in jacks arms its just so sad.

[athena0204]

hmmm i just wish that it was possible for ennis to do that and go back 20 years im pretty sure he would flee the country and go in to hiding if neccisary to stay with jack for ever.

You bet!!

[Marj]

Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to  be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.

I think in a way, Ennis wanted to protect Jack, when he saw that flash of Jack being murdered on the phone with Lureen, that was his fear, ik hope to believe that he wasn't affraid to love Jack.
On Jack's question to build a ranch together and go live there, Ennis told the story of the two man living together and one was murdered.
I think that is also why he kept there lives apart, to protect the love of his life.
(hmm very difficult to express myself in english, i hope you know what i mean)

One other thing, and i don't know if it's being discussed before or not (i'm sorry if it is, so much to read here)
When Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top of Ennis's, when we see the shirts ín Ennis's closet Ennis's shirt is on top of Jack's.
I think that was the moment you knew Ennis made peace with himself as he embraced Jack with his shirt.

[Matt Nasty]

I think in a way, Ennis wanted to protect Jack, when he saw that flash of Jack being murdered on the phone with Lureen, that was his fear, ik hope to believe that he wasn't affraid to love Jack.
On Jack's question to build a ranch together and go live there, Ennis told the story of the two man living together and one was murdered.
I think that is also why he kept there lives apart, to protect the love of his life.
(hmm very difficult to express myself in english, i hope you know what i mean)

One other thing, and i don't know if it's being discussed before or not (i'm sorry if it is, so much to read here)
When Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top of Ennis's, when we see the shirts ín Ennis's closet Ennis's shirt is on top of Jack's.
I think that was the moment you knew Ennis made peace with himself as he embraced Jack with his shirt.

hmm he wasnt so much affraid of the love but what society would do if their love was known...

[Marj]

hmm he wasnt so much affraid of the love but what society would do if their love was known...

That's what i mean 
That was his fear..that's why the story of the 2 man living together was important.

[Matt Nasty]

That's what i mean 
That was his fear..that's why the story of the 2 man living together was important.

yer

[tpe]

Thomas, this was one of my biggest attractions upon discovering the story. And when I took that certain friend to see it and he mentioned afterwards, the tragedy of that hate crime, part of me felt offended that he didn't get that it wasn't carved in stone, that it was a play on fear/love and could have simply been in Ennis' head. It's such a pivotable part of the concept and yet so sly, so camouflage - - for either way he's got the two shirts. I still like to think that, with Jack's shirt inside Ennis', he has learned how to preserve love rather than fear.

I somehow felt that the short story was more successful in preserving the ambiguity of Jack's end.  But I must admit that this is a bit more difficult to pull of cinematically -- without leaving the viewer with a feeling of being short-changed, if you know what I mean.  Alas, people who go to movies doen't always like ambiguous endings...  They tend to want something neatly tied in the end...

[tpe]

I think in a way, Ennis wanted to protect Jack, when he saw that flash of Jack being murdered on the phone with Lureen, that was his fear, ik hope to believe that he wasn't affraid to love Jack.
On Jack's question to build a ranch together and go live there, Ennis told the story of the two man living together and one was murdered.
I think that is also why he kept there lives apart, to protect the love of his life.
(hmm very difficult to express myself in english, i hope you know what i mean)

One other thing, and i don't know if it's being discussed before or not (i'm sorry if it is, so much to read here)
When Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top of Ennis's, when we see the shirts ín Ennis's closet Ennis's shirt is on top of Jack's.
I think that was the moment you knew Ennis made peace with himself as he embraced Jack with his shirt.

I think you expressed very well here what some of us had also said in some of the other related threads: that Ennis feared for them both -- but most especially for Jack.  His reluctance to live a shared life was certainly due to fear that they would be subject to reprisals -- and Jack's death seemed to have confirmed his worse fears...

 

[myprivatejack]

I think you expressed very well here what some of us had also said in some of the other related threads: that Ennis feared for them both -- but most especially for Jack.  His reluctance to live a shared life was certainly due to fear that they would be subject to reprisals -- and Jack's death seemed to have confirmed his worse fears...

And,at the same time,was also a proof of the inutility and/or the irony of this denial along their lives;obliging himself and Jack to feel miserable during so many years,to "protect" themselves against society's rough rules and reaction.And ending by falling into what he had wanted to avoid precisely; being killed for a different way of loving...Giving the reason to this society,but not exactly to himself... :\'(

[Marj]

And,at the same time,was also a proof of the inutility and/or the irony of this denial along their lives;obliging himself and Jack to feel miserable during so many years,to "protect" themselves against society's rough rules and reaction.And ending by falling into what he had wanted to avoid precisely; being killed for a different way of loving...Giving the reason to this society,but not exactly to himself... :\'(

As i said before, actually I wished i'd never saw this movie, it makes me so sad to watch these guy's, never knowing what it would be like to be together without being judged.
It makes me more angry with the world because in some countries this is still not possible.
Why would anybody murder someone because he loves another person...as i'm thinking about it i'm getting a little pissed off   GRRRRR......can't stand those narrow minded people.. in my eyes love is love, if it's a boy/boy love, girl/girl love or boy/girl love..that doesn't make any difference.

Sorry got a little emotional

[Matt Nasty]

As i said before, actually I wished i'd never saw this movie, it makes me so sad to watch these guy's, never knowing what it would be like to be together without being judged.
It makes me more angry with the world because in some countries this is still not possible.
Why would anybody murder someone because he loves another person...as i'm thinking about it i'm getting a little pissed off   GRRRRR......can't stand those narrow minded people.. in my eyes love is love, if it's a boy/boy love, girl/girl love or boy/girl love..that doesn't make any difference.

Sorry got a little emotional

dont worry i get emotional all the time over things like this i cant understand what the big deal is with being different love is love and jack and ennis had one of if not the most beautiful loves ever... probably the most powerful love ever.

[tpe]

And,at the same time,was also a proof of the inutility and/or the irony of this denial along their lives;obliging himself and Jack to feel miserable during so many years,to "protect" themselves against society's rough rules and reaction.And ending by falling into what he had wanted to avoid precisely; being killed for a different way of loving...Giving the reason to this society,but not exactly to himself... :\'(

This is in fact te greatest irony -- the contradiction which is at the heart of the "fear of love".

[tpe]

As i said before, actually I wished i'd never saw this movie, it makes me so sad to watch these guy's, never knowing what it would be like to be together without being judged.
It makes me more angry with the world because in some countries this is still not possible.
Why would anybody murder someone because he loves another person...as i'm thinking about it i'm getting a little pissed off   GRRRRR......can't stand those narrow minded people.. in my eyes love is love, if it's a boy/boy love, girl/girl love or boy/girl love..that doesn't make any difference.

Sorry got a little emotional

dont worry i get emotional all the time over things like this i cant understand what the big deal is with being different love is love and jack and ennis had one of if not the most beautiful loves ever... probably the most powerful love ever.

The fear of love is very real -- and in some places, very current.   It is best to confront it, though it disturbs us deeply.

[orangetruck]

This is in fact te greatest irony -- the contradiction which is at the heart of the "fear of love".

Absolutely -- making the ambiguity of Ennis' vision of Jack's death an invaluable point and parallel to the 9 year old (20 years and no erasure)..?

[tpe]

Absolutely -- making the ambiguity of Ennis' vision of Jack's death an invaluable point and parallel to the 9 year old (20 years and no erasure)..?

Even the very ending is beautifully ambiguous, bo?  We are not sure whether in the end, something was "lifted", or did he just sink deeper into the mire of fear and loneliness...

 

[Matt Nasty]

Even the very ending is beautifully ambiguous, bo?  We are not sure whether in the end, something was "lifted", or did he just sink deeper into the mire of fear and loneliness...

 

i dont know but im pretty confident in death all the fear and pain would be lifted it would be just like brokeback for them.
safe and together with out the restrictions of an ignorant society...

[tpe]

i dont know but im pretty confident in death all the fear and pain would be lifted it would be just like brokeback for them.
safe and together with out the restrictions of an ignorant society...

So perhaps you imply that Ennis longed to die in the end?

I think in the end, his love for Jack transcended the fear of death. It had held him captive for too long.  But the ambiguity of the ending certainly allows for other interpretations.



 

[Matt Nasty]

So perhaps you imply that Ennis longed to die in the end?

I think in the end, his love for Jack transcended the fear of death. It had held him captive for too long.  But the ambiguity of the ending certainly allows for other interpretations.



 

yes perhaps he longed to die in order to reunite with jack but i think he also understood the importance of living his life out for the sake of his daughters...

[lancecowboy]

Even the very ending is beautifully ambiguous, bo?  We are not sure whether in the end, something was "lifted", or did he just sink deeper into the mire of fear and loneliness...

I am sorry, but I disagree with this totally. Ennis, at the end of the movie, was unambiguously content with his lot in life, with his connection made with Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, with his role in his daughter's life, and most of all, with the goal of carrying Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.

Ennis, who was closed up emotionally all his life, who was shown emotional colors and life by Jack, found new life in Lightning Flat, and I have no doubt that the mail box number indicates surely and unequivocally that he expect more to come in life.

The short story and the movie have very different endings, but I think Heath's version in the movie is more true to the spirit of Ennis and Jack.

Just my own interpretation.

[aintfoolin]

I am sorry, but I disagree with this totally. Ennis, at the end of the movie, was unambiguously content with his lot in life, with his connection made with Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, with his role in his daughter's life, and most of all, with the goal of carrying Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.

Ennis, who was closed up emotionally all his life, who was shown emotional colors and life by Jack, found new life in Lightning Flat, and I have no doubt that the mail box number indicates surely and unequivocally that he expect more to come in life.

The short story and the movie have very different endings, but I think Heath's version in the movie is more true to the spirit of Ennis and Jack.

Just my own interpretation.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. It's interesting that you mention him putting the mail box letters. I think it meant Ennis was *settling in* for a future, not wishing to die, having a valuable lesson learned. I think he was very much enlightened following Jack's death about true love and it made him a stronger person for it.

I also feel that it is ironic that Ennis learned about the true meaning of Jack's love from two women in the film, Cassie, and his own daughter. Cassie taught him that *fun* was *fun* , but being in love with someone goes so much deeper. Sometimes people get hurt deeply too. He'd left her drifting and confused, and applied that to his relationship with Jack, the one he was truly in love with. .....But....

From his own daughter, he learned after  Jack's death, that life and love are to  be appreciated and celebrated. (" This Kurt fella< does he love you?")  He will attend his daughter's wedding when previously, he would chosen the roundup...telling.. MO.

[Matt Nasty]

I agree wholeheartedly with this. It's interesting that you mention him putting the mail box letters. I think it meant Ennis was *settling in* for a future, not wishing to die, having a valuable lesson learned. I think he was very much enlightened following Jack's death about true love and it made him a stronger person for it.

I also feel that it is ironic that Ennis learned about the true meaning of Jack's love from two women in the film, Cassie, and his own daughter. Cassie taught him that *fun* was *fun* , but being in love with someone goes so much deeper. Sometimes people get hurt deeply too. He'd left her drifting and confused, and applied that to his relationship with Jack, the one he was truly in love with. .....But....

From his own daughter, he learned after  Jack's death, that life and love are to  be appreciated and celebrated. (" This Kurt fella< does he love you?")  He will attend his daughter's wedding when previously, he would chosen the roundup...telling.. MO.

hmmmm i agree