Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[orangetruck]

I have always liked the scene with the mailbox and have even found affirmation in seeing him stick on that number "1": One love, we've got to carry each other .. carry each other. (Trailing off into a U2 lyric  )

I think a more challenging angle of the ending scene though, is whether Ennis would still continue to hide himself.

And I say himself because not everyone agrees that he's got a solid homosexuality to conceal. In other words, would he now allow himself to "shack up" with another man should he find himself another 1?

[Matt Nasty]

I have always liked the scene with the mailbox and have even found affirmation in seeing him stick on that number "1": One love, we've got to carry each other .. carry each other. (Trailing off into a U2 lyric  )

I think a more challenging angle of the ending scene though, is whether Ennis would still continue to hide himself.

And I say himself because not everyone agrees that he's got a solid homosexuality to conceal. In other words, would he now allow himself to "shack up" with another man should he find himself another 1?

hmm maybe he would but i think ennis would probably not really be able to fall in love again he is still in love with jack i know love has no limits but i think ennis would be maybe just stick to his daughters and that family love rather then romantacisms, i do wonder whether he would shack up with another man and not hide if he fell in love again but then im not sure if he would on some level i think he would maybe live with another man but i still dont think he would freely tell people they were in a relationship i think the most important thing was he had finally accepted himself. maybe i dont have a solid unchanged opinon about this yet.

[orangetruck]

hmm maybe he would but i think ennis would probably not really be able to fall in love again he is still in love with jack i know love has no limits but i think ennis would be maybe just stick to his daughters and that family love rather then romantacisms, i do wonder whether he would shack up with another man and not hide if he fell in love again but then im not sure if he would on some level i think he would maybe live with another man but i still dont think he would freely tell people they were in a relationship i think the most important thing was he had finally accepted himself. maybe i dont have a solid unchanged opinon about this yet.

Ok so the question is did he accept himself?

You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?

[Matt Nasty]

Ok so the question is did he accept himself?

You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?

what i mean is basically i think in himself and i dont think he would be as worried about the rest of the society as he previously was but what i mean is i dont think he would make a banner saying we are in love and put it on his trailer. apart from that i think he would be pretty fearless he think he would be more just careful then paronoid.

[myprivatejack]

Ok so the question is did he accept himself?

You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?

I think Ennis suffered an inner renovation somehow after Jack's death; I'd say better that it was so from their final confrontation.His statement "Jack,I swear..." that we've commented so many times,it could be the most superficial proof of this; before this,he had done a kind of "coming out" before Jack's family that was the first step for this acceptation of himself.And it could be,why not? the first step too to begin to learn how to overcome the fear of his environment and its duties and rules...

[orangetruck]

I think Ennis suffered an inner renovation somehow after Jack's death; I'd say better that it was so from their final confrontation.His statement "Jack,I swear..." that we've commented so many times,it could be the most superficial proof of this; before this,he had done a kind of "coming out" before Jack's family that was the first step for this acceptation of himself.And it could be,why not? the first step too to begin to learn how to overcome the fear of his environment and its duties and rules...

Agreed. 

[aintfoolin]

Ok so the question is did he accept himself?

You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?

 The fact that the way he imagined Jack's murder, tells me that Ennis still realized the dangers of the outside world, but also that when one gets the chance to love and be loved like he and Jack had take as much  of that opportunity givin to show it. To honor Jack's ultimate sacrifice to their love, he cannot help but feel devastatingly sorry, he denied Jack, he decided and swore to do right by Jack and love, unconditionally, the people he teasured and valued most in the future. MHO.

Could Ennis fall in love again? with another man? ...well that's another thread, but I feel it's possible.

[orangetruck]

The fact that the way he imagined Jack's murder, tells me that Ennis still realized the dangers of the outside world, but also that when one gets the chance to love and be loved like he and Jack had take as much  of that opportunity givin to show it. To honor Jack's ultimate sacrifice to their love, he cannot help but feel devastatingly sorry, he denied Jack, he decided and swore to do right by Jack and love, unconditionally, the people he teasured and valued most in the future. MHO.

Could Ennis fall in love again? with another man? ...well that's another thread, but I feel it's possible.

I reckon, but yes wouldn't it certainly be possible?
The irrigation ditch sucked the *true* love from Ennis. Jack put it back. Now what's he gonna do with it? He learned it can disappear, and that it could come back. What's left to learn is to not take it for granted..
"MHO" -- But frankly "my humble opinion" is getting dry in these parts.
Right here I'll let it stand for "Man Has Opened"

.. tired of them unhappy endings anyway 
 

[babytammy7]

The fact that the way he imagined Jack's murder, tells me that Ennis still realized the dangers of the outside world, but also that when one gets the chance to love and be loved like he and Jack had take as much  of that opportunity givin to show it. To honor Jack's ultimate sacrifice to their love, he cannot help but feel devastatingly sorry, he denied Jack, he decided and swore to do right by Jack and love, unconditionally, the people he teasured and valued most in the future. MHO.

Could Ennis fall in love again? with another man? ...well that's another thread, but I feel it's possible.

I agree Af. Jack's death confirms Ennis fears and paranoia, so could be he still scared of society? Maybe, I don't know.

[tpe]

Thomas, this was one of my biggest attractions upon discovering the story. And when I took that certain friend to see it and he mentioned afterwards, the tragedy of that hate crime, part of me felt offended that he didn't get that it wasn't carved in stone, that it was a play on fear/love and could have simply been in Ennis' head. It's such a pivotable part of the concept and yet so sly, so camouflage - - for either way he's got the two shirts. I still like to think that, with Jack's shirt inside Ennis', he has learned how to preserve love rather than fear.

To be fair to your friend, the tire iron scene was presented in such a way that pople could have wasily interpreted it to be what actually happened.

I think most moviegoers hate what Jake call's the "unresolved cadence" -- they like things spoon-fed to them.  They go to the movies not to think but to be entertained.    If there is a choice, they invariably interpret a scene along these lines, hence, you have your friend's reaction.

I am not condoning this, certainly.  But I feel that it is quite common.   The fear of love and their love must somehow come to a resolution (in thier minds) -- anything else would be unsatisfactory.

[tpe]

I am sorry, but I disagree with this totally. Ennis, at the end of the movie, was unambiguously content with his lot in life, with his connection made with Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, with his role in his daughter's life, and most of all, with the goal of carrying Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.

Ennis, who was closed up emotionally all his life, who was shown emotional colors and life by Jack, found new life in Lightning Flat, and I have no doubt that the mail box number indicates surely and unequivocally that he expect more to come in life.

The short story and the movie have very different endings, but I think Heath's version in the movie is more true to the spirit of Ennis and Jack.

Just my own interpretation.

I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie.  The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise...  At the very least, there was everlasting regret.

[athena0204]

I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie.  The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise...  At the very least, there was everlasting regret.

Definitely. He had much sorrow and regret. At the end of the movie, if he could turn back time twenty years, this time we know exactly what he would do.

[myprivatejack]

I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie.  The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise...  At the very least, there was everlasting regret.

I'm not sure either if contentis the proper word for what Ennis feels at the end of the movie.Surely a part of him was so because he had found a way to accept himself-as I said in a former post in this same thread...-and to live fully somehow.But the price he had to pay to arrive to this was very high;the loss of the only person he had loved, united to an eternal regret for having loss also too much time to live this love.

[orangetruck]

I'm not sure either if contentis the proper word for what Ennis feels at the end of the movie.Surely a part of him was so because he had found a way to accept himself-as I said in a former post in this same thread...-and to live fully somehow.But the price he had to pay to arrive to this was very high;the loss of the only person he had loved, united to an eternal regret for having loss also too much time to live this love.

Certainly there is a much better word, I agree. 

[lancecowboy]

I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie.  The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise...  At the very least, there was everlasting regret.

Regret...yes...sadness...yes...content with his lot in life, why not? We brokies are also in tears half the time. It's called PBS, no? Bittersweet contentment... When Junior drove up to his trailer... when she invited him to her wedding...when she tells him her fiance loves her... There will always be tears for Ennis, just as there will always be tears for us... I hope. With tears, I know I still remember Heath, Ennis and Jack. I don't ever want to be not feeling sad. But at the same time, I am content with whatever I have. Just as Ennis was content with his "don't need nothing when you don't got nothing." He grew up poor with a paperbag for luggage, for crying out loud. I don't want to project my own values and expectations on Ennis. I try to understand what Anne Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath put into the character. I think, when Ennis put the numbers 17 on his mailbox, and stood back to admire his handywork, he was content, and expectant of more visits with Jack's Ma, letters from his little girls... Life is not always about material things or sex. One love in one life time is sometimes enough... I think, at least for Ennis it was.

Just my two cents.

[orangetruck]

Regret...yes...sadness...yes...content with his lot in life, why not? We brokies are also in tears half the time. It's called PBS, no? Bittersweet contentment... When Junior drove up to his trailer... when she invited him to her wedding...when she tells him her fiance loves her... There will always be tears for Ennis, just as there will always be tears for us... I hope. With tears, I know I still remember Heath, Ennis and Jack. I don't ever want to be not feeling sad. But at the same time, I am content with whatever I have. Just as Ennis was content with his "don't need nothing when you don't got nothing." He grew up poor with a paperbag for luggage, for crying out loud. I don't want to project my own values and expectations on Ennis. I try to understand what Anne Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath put into the character. I think, when Ennis put the numbers 17 on his mailbox, and stood back to admire his handywork, he was content, and expectant of more visits with Jack's Ma, letters from his little girls... Life is not always about material things or sex. One love in one life time is sometimes enough... I think, at least for Ennis it was.

Just my two cents.

The bolded sentence is interesting. It brings me to the postcard and shirts in the respect that Ennis has those there for his own reasons but also to 'feel sad'.. But then that's just inevitably part of the package. It could possibly be his backbone to being content and able to get behind the wheel of his life these days. Hmm 
Any case I may not agree, but I get a better glimpse into what you're saying with this post.
 

[tpe]

Would "resignation" be a better way to describe Ennis at the end, rather than "contentment"?

As to the fear of love, did the fear go away in the very end?  If it didn't, and if it comingled with regret, would this imply that Ennis was still far from equilibrium?

[orangetruck]

Would "resignation" be a better way to describe Ennis at the end, rather than "contentment"?

As to the fear of love, did the fear go away in the very end?  If it didn't, and if it comingled with regret, would this imply that Ennis was still far from equilibrium?

Thanks for the thought provoking question, Thomas.

At the risk of taking all fear from Ennis in my response, I think 'resignation' works. For me, it was in his watering eyes and those escaping three words before he shuts the closet door, himself not in it. As an initial first step out into the open field without Jack, he accepts the loss of love. The resignation resonates in that view out of the window, and it leaves me simply and direly hoping his pursuit now, of what he had, flows similarly to the grass with the wind.
"You don't got nothing, you don't need nothin'." -- Much like Ennis probably feels a different ripple every day, I will not rest my thoughts on just one blank shore. I do like to think the glimpse he gets of his unhindered heart from the closet in his trailer suggests equilibria at the least:

For now, Ennis may have nothing when actually, he's got the essense of Jack in his lonesome trailer, the power of love. With regret still in the equation, I believe it is his door to an inner peace, something he had on Brokeback Mountain. This, everytime he opens that closet door, combined with the finite world in which he lives, concocts something almost as palpable as a dose of serum; He can swallow his tears here. And as time goes on, he will find a balance on that bridge from here to there.

I can't call this my humble opinion as of yet. I'm merely articulating the sensation with which I'm left as darkness slowly engulfs the swimming grass at the film's closing.

[lancecowboy]

Would "resignation" be a better way to describe Ennis at the end, rather than "contentment"?

As to the fear of love, did the fear go away in the very end?  If it didn't, and if it comingled with regret, would this imply that Ennis was still far from equilibrium?

I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve.

Ennis was not giving up, and there is nothing he could do about Jack's death, the wasted years.

It's call acceptance. And along with acceptance of what cannot be changed, like society (given Ennis' circumstances) there is also contentment with what is. It is part of the cowboy stoicism that kept Ennis going all those years. He was happy with beans, with non-material things, like his little darlings. We may not be happy in Ennis' situation, but that's what, in my mind, make Ennis special. Even his lack of ambition is sweet.

[orangetruck]

I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve.

Ennis was not giving up, and there is nothing he could do about Jack's death, the wasted years.

It's call acceptance. And along with acceptance of what cannot be changed, like society (given Ennis' circumstances) there is also contentment with what is. It is part of the cowboy stoicism that kept Ennis going all those years. He was happy with beans, with non-material things, like his little darlings. We may not be happy in Ennis' situation, but that's what, in my mind, make Ennis special. Even his lack of ambition is sweet.

But resignation also is acceptance, no? A sort of way of being submissive to what has been. Perhaps Ennis is learning to move on from what has kept him down, taking with him the bare necessities. Even if it's only a paperbag with a coupla shirts or something..

[lancecowboy]

But resignation also is acceptance, no? A sort of way of being submissive to what has been. Perhaps Ennis is learning to move on from what has kept him down, taking with him the bare necessities. Even if it's only a paperbag with a coupla shirts or something..

Without getting into another war of definitions with you OT, I'd say resignation is giving up, and acceptance is not fighting what cannot be changed, but continue to change and grow whenever there is opportunity.

Resignation is passive submission as you put it.

Acceptance is wisdom in action.

Just my interpretation.

 

[orangetruck]

Without getting into another war of definitions with you OT, I'd say resignation is giving up, and acceptance is not fighting what cannot be changed, but continue to change and grow whenever there is opportunity.

Resignation is passive submission as you put it.

Acceptance is wisdom in action.

Just my interpretation.

 

Seriously? War? Take it easy. 

By resignation, as opposed to "wisdom in action", we have Ennis with his shirts having accepted the "lesson" on love. No he's not actively moving on by painting his trailer in rainbows; he's accepting himself. And that is more likely to me than finding contentment as tears are about to fall from his eyes and he fights to say I love you to the absent love of his life.

Yes resignation, or otherwise unresisting attitude towards his fate with Jack. Yes, if we're talking definitions, I choose that word.
 

[lancecowboy]

Seriously? War? Take it easy. 

By resignation, as opposed to "wisdom in action", we have Ennis with his shirts having accepted the "lesson" on love. No he's not actively moving on by painting his trailer in rainbows; he's accepting himself. And that is more likely to me than finding contentment as tears are about to fall from his eyes and he fights to say I love you to the absent love of his life.

Yes resignation, or otherwise unresisting attitude towards his fate with Jack. Yes, if we're talking definitions, I choose that word.
 

  Lighten up, OT. It was just a word to mean we disagree strongly, but that would be too wordy.

Back to the definitions...

You are welcome to choose resignation.

I choose acceptance and contentment, because I see Ennis reaching out to others that he kept out before he met Jack. I see growth in a man that was fearful and confused. The end was only the beginning for Ennis.

As we have established that we see the movie differently, there is no need to continue making circular discussions about what you want to choose to define, and what I choose to define.

I choose to let you win your own argument. 

[orangetruck]

Lighten up, OT. It was just a word to mean we disagree strongly, but that would be too wordy.

Back to the definitions...

You are welcome to choose resignation.

I choose acceptance and contentment, because I see Ennis reaching out to others that he kept out before he met Jack. I see growth in a man that was fearful and confused. The end was only the beginning for Ennis.

As we have established that we see the movie differently, there is no need to continue making circular discussions about what you want to choose to define, and what I choose to define.

I choose to let you win your own argument. 

I was going for sarcasm. 



No need to be perturbed or fickle. I just wanted to bring to your attention the other part of 'resignition'. We're here to challenge each other's ideas and grow, as far as I know. If you're stuck on the war of definitions, rather, that is your own tail you're chasing  -- when really the end, as you put it, is only the beginning. Think about it, what others are saying. And maybe you'll learn that it's not an argument but a discussion; it's entertaining the notion that our preconceived ideas can be bent or looked at differently -- Much like Ennis had been conditioned to Earl's image but now knows how to avoid devastation; that is to have an open mind.

"One curve in the road and they miss it"
One doesn't always have to miss it. 

I do prefer resignition: Ennis resigned from his 'old ways' and was employed now to the ability to submit his love to those around him, rather than content on getting by with another stoic's job. Back in the days before the knowledge of love that Cassie and Alma Jr. give him, his contentment was with beans or yes, memories of Jack. But now I think Ennis has been given that knowledge, that love is now, and it's fleeting (Dad.. that was 2 years ago, I'm with KURT now), and he must hold onto it all. I think to be content is to render the value of what's now kept in his closet hollow, to close the door on what is Ennis. I believe contentment may come much later in his life. But the feeling at the end of the film for me is a deep, emotional flutter of a man still greatly in the grips of change, having fallen submissive to the strength of Brokeback.

Also, with that said, I'd like to look at this part of your quote:
"I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve."
On the same hand, Ennis may have given up on his former self (the one that couldn't shack up with Jack)  to the extent that he may now love freely.
A diamond can acquire many faces, it's good to remember..

... I hope that wasn't too invasive, LC 

[lancecowboy]

I was going for sarcasm. 



No need to be perturbed or fickle. I just wanted to bring to your attention the other part of 'resignition'. We're here to challenge each other's ideas and grow, as far as I know. If you're stuck on the war of definitions, rather, that is your own tail you're chasing  -- when really the end, as you put it, is only the beginning.
[...]
Also, with that said, I'd like to look at this part of your quote:
"I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve."
On the same hand, Ennis may have given up on his former self (the one that couldn't shack up with Jack)  to the extent that he may now love freely.
A diamond can acquire many faces, it's good to remember..

... I hope that wasn't too invasive, LC 

  Speaking sarcastically, OT, you have a way of telling yourself what you need to hear, and borrowing what others have said to claim as your own without giving due creidt, for example, the many facet of love (came from Christie, and others). You were stuck on your own view of love, and trying to blungeon me with your repetitive and circular, sometimes nonsensical arguments. But I will try one last time to get through this fog of mis-communication you seem to be stuck with.

I am hardly combative or argumentative. I am usually very open-minded. And I must say that this is the first time I have EVER use this tone with any member of this forum.  I now realize you may be on a track what others have referred to as a troll. ( see wikipedia definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

No offense intended, OT, but I don't need your combative tone, so have a nice day. See the article about the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. I will continue to ignore your posts until you stop your trolling.

 

[orangetruck]

Speaking sarcastically, OT, you have a way of telling yourself what you need to hear, and borrowing what others have said to claim as your own without giving due creidt, for example, the many facet of love (came from Christie, and others). You were stuck on your own view of love, and trying to blungeon me with your repetitive and circular, sometimes nonsensical arguments. But I will try one last time to get through this fog of mis-communication you seem to be stuck with.

I am hardly combative or argumentative. I am usually very open-minded. And I must say that this is the first time I have EVER use this tone with any member of this forum.  I now realize you may be on a track what others have referred to as a troll. ( see wikipedia definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

No offense intended, OT, but I don't need your combative tone, so have a nice day. See the article about the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. I will continue to ignore your posts until you stop your trolling.

 

Willing to assess a forum member, yet you won't look at two different perspectives side by side? 

Speaking honest, I don't mean to offend you in any way. I tend to dig right into the topic at hand, and in this case it was down to the T of two "ideal" words. And for me it's more than just a word out of the book when they're put in the context of a scene such as this. I won't try and defend what you're trying to put on me, I think you're already all too familiar with the likes. But do ignore me if that's how you'll simmer.

I will continue to respect you as a fellow Brokie, and you can believe it or not. I think the "tone" of everything to do with discussions here is reader based, and it's probably ideal that those involved absorb the content impersonally. We are all adults. Good luck with that. 

To render a sliver of relevance into the thread here, I find the first departure off the mountain interesting:

Jack in FC admits, "I wish I knew how to quit you!" And most of us feel that Ang had many a mirrored or symbolic detail put in the film. Earlier just before the departure, when they roll around and hit each other (come to think of it, wasn't this scene/sound byte in one of the trailers for the movie?), to me it's realistic that Ennis, although out of character, could easily have said the same thing. At the least, I think his heart would have said "I wish I knew how to quit you!" -- BAM!

It astounds me just how ignorant a person can be to their own feelings, until they are verbalized.

 

Peace, Andy 

[lancecowboy]

It astounds me just how ignorant a person can be to their own feelings, until they are verbalized.

  ditto

[orangetruck]

ditto

Aww I knew a ditto out of you was possible one way or another. 

But how about something on topic. 

[tpe]

Sorry if I got things started about definitions again! 

I am leaning towards "resignation" when it comes to Ennis's acceptance of Jack's death because he understands that he cannot bring Jack back.  If we were to say contentment, the implication is that one can have the power to change this fact. 

Secondly, contentment would indicate that that the current situation is good for you, and therefore, it would imply that you have no wish to change.  Nobody who is content with his/her lot would want a change (either for the better or for the worst) -- that is the essence of the word itself, no?  It is the same with "resignation" -- except that in this term, one accepts that there are certain things beyond one's power to change, even if you wanted to.

It is true that Ennis most probably changes in other aspects of his life -- his view on love and life's priorities, for example.  Such a change cannot be described by either "contentment" or "resignation", because the will to change implies a desire to change the current state -- this goes against the grain of what it means to be content/resigned.

But in the matter of losing Jack and losing the opportunity for a sweet life, I think "resignation" is the more appropriate term.  To bring back Jack and BBM was beyond Ennis's power.  He had no choice but to accept and to learn from it -- perhaps by the repudiation of the fear to love.

[orangetruck]

Sorry if I got things started about definitions again! 

I am leaning towards "resignation" when it comes to Ennis's acceptance of Jack's death because he understands that he cannot bring Jack back.  If we were to say contentment, the implication is that one can have the power to change this fact. 

Secondly, contentment would indicate that that the current situation is good for you, and therefore, it would imply that you have no wish to change.  Nobody who is content with his/her lot would want a change (either for the better or for the worst) -- that is the essence of the word itself, no?  It is the same with "resignation" -- except that in this term, one accepts that there are certain things beyond one's power to change, even if you wanted to.

It is true that Ennis most probably changes in other aspects of his life -- his view on love and life's priorities, for example.  Such a change cannot be described by either "contentment" or "resignation", because the will to change implies a desire to change the current state -- this goes against the grain of what it means to be content/resigned.

But in the matter of losing Jack and losing the opportunity for a sweet life, I think "resignation" is the more appropriate term.  To bring back Jack and BBM was beyond Ennis's power.  He had no choice but to accept and to learn from it -- perhaps by the repudiation of the fear to love.

Please don't apologise! 

I like the last line as well. Do you think the same part of Ennis that can face the shirts in the closet also somehow feels a responsibility towards Jacks of finding love in precisely another man? How ambiguous do you find Ennis' sexuality at this point, compared to his general ability to express himself? I personally figure only a thin line now separates desire from his actions. But I state that vaguely..

Thoughts?