Topic: What If Jack Hadn't Slipped?

[jackster]

There are a lot of very interesting and serious threads going now. Here’s one that may be a little lighter and allow some interesting wanderings. A key element to the most critical scenes in the SS and Movie is Jack slipping during the wrestle match on Brokeback. He slips, knees Ennis in the nose and the blood flows over them and their clothing as Jack tries to comfort Ennis. This provides an extremely clever yet simple premise for Jack’s stealing the “blood-brother” shirt, and then later lovingly intertwining it with his own blood stained shirt. Damn, Annie is so good!

What do you think would have happened if Jack had not slipped? No bloody nose, (assuming they didn’t end up in fisticuffs) no symbolism for Jack to grasp. What would he have done? He surely still wanted some prize of Ennis’s, some scent, some remembrance, but what? Would he still have taken the shirt? I guess Ennis only had two shirts (we only see two) and he couldn’t have taken the one Ennis was wearing. Per the SS Ennis wore “no drawers, no socks, Jack noticed” (even though we see socks in the movie) so those are out. What’s the poor boy gonna do?

Anyone wanna’ do some dumbass guessin’?

[Tony]

      Sure, why the heck not?   Let's see, could take a boot, but, too obvious, Ennis limping around in circles.  I'd kinda think it would have
to still be a shirt, even unbloodied, as that just sort of fits.  But there's another possibility.  Jackster, remember the scene where it's
raining, and Ennis is laid back, whittling something, looking back over his shoulder?  Remember the toy cowboy in Jack's room?  Whatever
Ennis was carving, Jack might want that, to go along with the other.

[LuvJackNasty]

Interesting topic.    It's so hard to imagine him taking anything other than that bloody shirt because that is such a huge symbol in this story/movie and their love being sealed in blood is powerful. I'd like to think that he still would've taken something. I would have to say that he'd have taken the other shirt- not terribly original but what else is there.  I think blood or no blood it would have pretty much the same effect in the symbolism of a perpetual dozy embrace. That's my dumbass thought for right now. 

[FlwrChild]

I like it, LJN. And it makes sense to me because I'm kind of a 'token' person myself. I took a shirt of my boyfriend's to camp one summer (but he gave it to me to take, so he knew I had it), and another boy once gave me a shirt as a gift, and I slept with it for weeks. That's why the minute Ennis said "I can't believe I left my damn shirt up there," and Jack got that look on his face, I knew exactly where that shirt was - stashed in with his own gear (though I had no idea that it would come up later, and had completely forgotten about it by the time Ennis went to LF). I was surprised to find that not many people I talked to caught that guilty look of Jack's, but then it turned out most of them weren't 'token' people. Makes me feel kind of stalkerish for trying to abscond with another guy's baseball cap once.

Tony, I could see him taking something like that carving as well, especially if it were a matter of trying to take something that wouldn't be noticed 'til later.

My first instinct would be the shirt though. What makes Annie's story so perfect is that there are so many elements that could only have played out the way they did, because of how intertwined all of those elements were. Kind of makes you wonder if Jack and Ennis ever had the power to change anything in their destiny.

[manhattangirl]

What about the kercheif  Jack  uses to wipe Ennis's bleeding head when he got thrown from the horse?, (just my dumbass guess).

[babytammy7]

Hi Jackster!!! Nice topic!!!

I think the most important question here is not "What’s the poor boy gonna steal to remember his love?" but "What would have happened if Jack never had stolen anything?" I mean, we think that Ennis finally knew that Jack loved him finding the shirts, and then he understood Jack's love and his own love. But if Jack never had stolen his shirt, when Ennis came back from Twist's ranch he only would be thinking about Old Twist's words about Jack living with other guy!!!! And he never would had discovered and undestood Jack's love, so I think it's possible that he had died thinking he was never loved.....  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[myprivatejack]

Hi Jackster!!! Nice topic!!!

I think the most important question here is not "What’s the poor boy gonna steal to remember his love?" but "What would have happened if Jack never had stolen anything?" I mean, we think that Ennis finally knew that Jack loved him finding the shirts, and then he understood Jack's love and his own love. But if Jack never had stolen his shirt, when Ennis came back from Twist's ranch he only would be thinking about Old Twist's words about Jack living with other guy!!!! And he never would had discovered and undestood Jack's love, so I think it's possible that he had died thinking he was never loved.....  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

I could say that Jack didn´t need to steal anything from Ennis as a souvenir of their love,because the souvenirs were with him forever in the shape of something intangible,but more definitive:HIS FEELINGS. But if I must confine myself,I´d say also that the symbolism of the shirts is so powerful,so hard and at the same time,so tender that it can´t be compared to the one from any other object. But,isn´t it a little(I can´t find a good word to define it in order to not hurt someone´s susceptibility)...that Ennis must discover the deepness of Jack´s love and even his own´s,by finding the shirts,after 20 years of constant show of this love?.I know it´s a little  and a little touchy also,but isn´t it true?

[FlwrChild]

I don't think it's off topic, mpj. I think that's a big part of the tragedy; that it took Jack's death and finding the shirts for Ennis to finally reach the understanding and recognition of both Jack's love for him and his love for Jack. It's part of what makes the story an unbreakable circle.

Everything fell into place in just such a way that changing one element would effect all the others. If they had realized what they had in '63, they could have avoided getting stuck in marriages they didn't want, with the responsibility of children they couldn't leave. But it took those four years apart, and the attempt to live that other life, to realize how strong their connection was. I think that pattern followed them throughout their relationship and came full circle with Ennis finding the shirts. The tragedy it that for Ennis to finally understand their love, Jack has to die, but with Jack gone, there's nothing to be gained for them by Ennis reaching that understanding.

Jack could have taken any number of things to remember Ennis by, but it was the shirts that symbolized everything Ennis needed to find in that closet that day. Annie Proulx amazes me.

[tpe]

What about the kercheif  Jack  uses to wipe Ennis's bleeding head when he got thrown from the horse?, (just my dumbass guess).

This is a good one, manhattangirl!  I would think that too would have had some trace of Ennis's blood.  But I am sure Jack washed it soon after.  I suspect he took the bloodied shirt on impulse.

In any cse, Jack would have had Ennis's blood on HIS shirt.  He would have a memento, albeit only one side of a dyptich.

[jackster]

These are Great replies here, all.

“diptych”, uh oh, is this an art major?   FC you’re the first person I’ve heard who knew right away what happened when the shirt turned up missin’. It never occurred to me. I’d be interested to know if anyone else (without prior knowledge) saw through that lie right away. I like the carved horse idea Tony, think Jack would have enough nerve to ask Ennis for it? I mean at that point they were more than just “friends”,   I think Ennis would have been kinda’ touched by this request don’t you? Maybe that would have made things work out a little different? 

It occurred to me in reading these, damm isn’t Jack sorta’ cruel here? Here’s poor Ennis, the boy shows up with a paper grocery bag holding EVERYTHING he owns. And sure enough, this dude Jack manages to nick off with one of his shirts. Gosh, give the poor guy a break!

Since the selection of Ennis paraphernalia is so small, what about one of those items they shared? Some of that bedding would have a pretty good scent to it by summers end ,  or how ‘bout the tent? Jack could keep that like a sacred teepee where they shared, ahem, so much. Of course there’s the saddle where Ennis’s butt spent so much time, but we maybe getting a little too close the bone here. 

[manhattangirl]

thanks for clearing that up, jackster, I thought I was being call a "dipstick"  LOL.  (only kidding, tpe).

[jackster]

I thought I was being call a "dipstick"  LOL.  (only kidding, tpe).

      

[lamusica]

I remember reading a post ages ago in which the author suggested that the little horse with rider that Ennis picks up and looks at in Jack's room WAS the one that Ennis had been carving.  Obviously, intending that Ennis gave it to Jack.  I thought this, also, so just thought everyone took that for granted.  I just always thought that Jack did have that token from Ennis.

So far as the shirts go, the blood angle certainly adds more meaning to the shirts -- a much deeper, darker, sensual meaning.  But I think Jack would have taken the shirt anyhow.  As has been pointed out, Ennis really didn't have anything else for him to take.  Also, something that a person has worn is so symbolic of that person -- holds their form and their smell -- no longer just a mute piece of cloth.  I think Jack held that shirt to his face and breathed in the essence of Ennis many times over the years -- everytime he went to his folks' place.  While the blood adds symbolism,  and I LOVE the idea of their blood being mingled, I think, even without the blood, the entwined shirts are meaningful and beautiful.

[jackster]

. . . While the blood adds symbolism, and I LOVE the idea of their blood being mingled, I think, even without the blood, the entwined shirts are meaningful and beautiful.

lamusica: I think your right, the shirt still seems like a good candidate. But have I missed something major here all this time? I've always thought it was Ennis's blood mingled on both of the shirts, was Jack bleeding here too?

The carved horse(s). I've checked these out pretty closely on slo-mo. It's difficult to imagine Ennis being able to carve that little horse he picks up in Jack's room, it is a really detailed piece. IMHO if that was the intended idea here, the prop guys would have used something much more "folk-art" in character, and of course Ennis would have rightly wanted to take it with him from Lighting Flat too.

[lamusica]

The minute I saw the horse in Jack's bedroom, I assumed it was the finished piece that Ennis had carved and given to Jack.  I assumed it was a gift to Jack that he took to his folks' place and left ( then later left the shirts) so he could keep them and have them when he went back there.  Lureen would have asked questions had he kept them with him and tried to bring them into their house.  Well, that was my take on it, and I know others thought the same from that old thread and the discussion there.  You are right about the finished project being much more sophisticated, but when we see Ennis working on the carving, he was just beginning.  He had a lot of time on his hands, so who's to say that he wasn't an accomplished woodcarver.  Many old cowboys engaged in woodcarving, so it's no major stretch.

My take on the shirts was that Ennis was injured first, accidently, by Jack and his nose bled.  He wiped his shirtsleeve over his nose, thus getting the blood on it.  Then he punched Jack and grappled with him on the ground.  I assumed some of Jack's blood got on Ennis's shirt, also. While I did not see Jack bleed, he did wipe his nose after Ennis punched him which led me to believe he, too, had a bloody nose. Thus there was blood on his own shirtsleeve, also.  At least that's how it looked to me.  I will pay especiial attention to this scene next time I watch the film.

[lancecowboy]

Wow, one day's worth of posting!

Here is throwing my hat into the mix.

babytammy7, great question, what if Jack never stole that shirt!? The movie would end so differently.

I also thought that cowboy on horseback was carved by Ennis? I thought of it right the way, when Ennis pick it up almost immediately upon entering the room. And he had tears in his eyes when he put it down. Thinking that Jack kept this little token of their time together all this time. I am fairly certain it is what Ennis was carving because the horse's posture look almost exactly the same, with its hind legs lower than the front, and the distances between the legs are in the same proportion. Only the cast and crew, and Ang Lee would know for certain. However, I would be very surprised that with all the careful attention to detail elsewhere in this move, if this little coincidence was left to chance.

I agree with lamusica that Jack would never take anything from Brokeback Mountain to Texas. He never even told Lureen about it. That's why she was caught off guard when Ennis told her they herded sheep there one summer back in '63. And of course, Ennis would have figured on that right the way. But hiding the shirts in a nook in the closet was a much more powerful message which tells Ennis that Jack "treasured these shirts" and kept them unwashed for obvious reason.

I think there is another reason why Jack stole that particular shirt, even without the blood, which Ennis himself wiped there, when his nose was bloodied. Jack wiped his own sleeve to clean Ennis' still bleeding nose, just like he did with the kerchief when Ennis fell in the encounter with the bear. And the reason is this. That shirt of Ennis' was Jack's favorite. You can see him washing it in the river in the raw, wearing only his boots, after their FNIT. The short story has this scene and poignantly described the shirt as Ennis only other shirt.

What makes the two shirts even more powerful symbols than the blood brother angle, is the fact that Jack put Ennis' shirt inside of his...just like in the motel scene when he wraps his arms around Ennis...And when Ennis found the shirts, he instinctively took the sleeves and put his arms around them, like Jack did to him...another reason why he reversed the shirts...he was able to show the same love to Jack that Jack showed to him.

And what makes me think that Annie is such a genius is the subtle meaning of finding the shirts for Ennis, not only as proof of Jack's love, but also of Jack's Ma's acceptance of them. I didn't pick up on this until the discussion in the forum. As I verbalize, or write down the words, I realized what must be true, and confirmed by Roberta Maxwell's interview.

That's why I love you all in your discussions. Thank you jackster for starting this topic.

[tpe]

These are Great replies here, all.

“diptych”, uh oh, is this an art major?   FC you’re the first person I’ve heard who knew right away what happened when the shirt turned up missin’. It never occurred to me. I’d be interested to know if anyone else (without prior knowledge) saw through that lie right away. I like the carved horse idea Tony, think Jack would have enough nerve to ask Ennis for it? I mean at that point they were more than just “friends”,   I think Ennis would have been kinda’ touched by this request don’t you? Maybe that would have made things work out a little different? 

It occurred to me in reading these, damm isn’t Jack sorta’ cruel here? Here’s poor Ennis, the boy shows up with a paper grocery bag holding EVERYTHING he owns. And sure enough, this dude Jack manages to nick off with one of his shirts. Gosh, give the poor guy a break!

Since the selection of Ennis paraphernalia is so small, what about one of those items they shared? Some of that bedding would have a pretty good scent to it by summers end ,  or how ‘bout the tent? Jack could keep that like a sacred teepee where they shared, ahem, so much. Of course there’s the saddle where Ennis’s butt spent so much time, but we maybe getting a little too close the bone here. 

But they had to return the bedding and the tent, no?  And if Jack took any of Aguirre's items, I am sure that he wouldn't be let-off. 

Perhaps jack should have found an opportunity where he could have snipped a lock of Ennis's hair.  It's an age-old practice, although I admit that it might sound mawkish by today's standards.

[tpe]

I remember reading a post ages ago in which the author suggested that the little horse with rider that Ennis picks up and looks at in Jack's room WAS the one that Ennis had been carving.  Obviously, intending that Ennis gave it to Jack.  I thought this, also, so just thought everyone took that for granted.  I just always thought that Jack did have that token from Ennis.

So far as the shirts go, the blood angle certainly adds more meaning to the shirts -- a much deeper, darker, sensual meaning.  But I think Jack would have taken the shirt anyhow.  As has been pointed out, Ennis really didn't have anything else for him to take.  Also, something that a person has worn is so symbolic of that person -- holds their form and their smell -- no longer just a mute piece of cloth.  I think Jack held that shirt to his face and breathed in the essence of Ennis many times over the years -- everytime he went to his folks' place.  While the blood adds symbolism,  and I LOVE the idea of their blood being mingled, I think, even without the blood, the entwined shirts are meaningful and beautiful.

I think that the thought of not seeing Ennis again made Jack desperate enough to take anything from Ennis.  The blood I think was in a sense incidental: because Ennis had to change shirts after the fight, Jack had a wonderful opportunity. no?  The blood certainly gave it greater meaning.

[tpe]

What makes the two shirts even more powerful symbols than the blood brother angle...

Yes, the connotations are so rich, that the blood has become as significant as (if not more significant than) the shirts.  The shirts become more than just shirts.  They become silent witnesses to a compact.

[lancecowboy]

Yes, the connotations are so rich, that the blood has become as significant as (if not more significant than) the shirts.  The shirts become more than just shirts.  They become silent witnesses to a compact.

oh...if only those shirts can speak...what they would say of the love that is a force of nature. 

[tpe]

oh...if only those shirts can speak...what they would say of the love that is a force of nature. 

In a very real sense, they still spoke to Ennis in the closet, even after nearly 20 years... 

[aintfoolin]

These are Great replies here, all.

“diptych”, uh oh, is this an art major?   FC you’re the first person I’ve heard who knew right away what happened when the shirt turned up missin’. It never occurred to me. I’d be interested to know if anyone else (without prior knowledge) saw through that lie right away. I like the carved horse idea Tony, think Jack would have enough nerve to ask Ennis for it? I mean at that point they were more than just “friends”,   I think Ennis would have been kinda’ touched by this request don’t you? Maybe that would have made things work out a little different? 

It occurred to me in reading these, damm isn’t Jack sorta’ cruel here? Here’s poor Ennis, the boy shows up with a paper grocery bag holding EVERYTHING he owns. And sure enough, this dude Jack manages to nick off with one of his shirts. Gosh, give the poor guy a break!

Since the selection of Ennis paraphernalia is so small, what about one of those items they shared? Some of that bedding would have a pretty good scent to it by summers end ,  or how ‘bout the tent? Jack could keep that like a sacred teepee where they shared, ahem, so much. Of course there’s the saddle where Ennis’s butt spent so much time, but we maybe getting a little too close the bone here. 

Jackster,

I'm trying to picture Jack as he WAS the one dismantling the camp, he had the perfect opportunity to take anything that Ennis was'nt gonna miss right away. His hat? nope Ennis was seldom seen without it. Don't know how many pairs of Jeans he owned , probably 2 , but I'll venture a dumbass guess that Jack took the shirt, not only because of the blood which no doubt symbolized something to Jack, but because the shirt had arms, a collar, and a torso. all the required elements of an "embrace" . The way Jack displayed the shirts as Ennis found them told the story he wanted to tell Ennis or anyone who would look at them. I think Mrs. Twist definitly "got it". Ennis's razor? Nah, a belt, maybe a towel, nope, it had to be the shirt, It looked like Ennis just as Ennis , in the closet wrapped Jack's sleeve around him in an embracing gesture says he got Jack's message loud and clear.

Ennis was digging through his bag when he stated " can't believe I left my damn shirt up there" and Jack's little "play-off of the fact that  he had it and quickly changes the subject....priceless. I'm in the "did'nt get it till the end" camp, but when I watch the scene in Signal post Brokeback, Jack 's actions can only be described as "clever" .If Ennis would have instead ask Jack if " Did you see my blue shirt'? Jack would have to out right lie , thought he had it somewhere in that truck. What a  little thief!

[lancecowboy]

Jackster,

I'm trying to picture Jack as he WAS the one dismantling the camp, he had the perfect opportunity to take anything that Ennis was'nt gonna miss right away. His hat? nope Ennis was seldom seen without it. Don't know how many pairs of Jeans he owned , probably 2 , but I'll venture a dumbass guess that Jack took the shirt, not only because of the blood which no doubt symbolized something to Jack, but because the shirt had arms, a collar, and a torso. all the required elements of an "embrace" . The way Jack displayed the shirts as Ennis found them told the story he wanted to tell Ennis or anyone who would look at them. I think Mrs. Twist definitly "got it". Ennis's razor? Nah, a belt, maybe a towel, nope, it had to be the shirt, It looked like Ennis just as Ennis , in the closet wrapped Jack's sleeve around him in an embracing gesture says he got Jack's message loud and clear.

Ennis was digging through his bag when he stated " can't believe I left my damn shirt up there" and Jack's little "play-off of the fact that  he had it and quickly changes the subject....priceless. I'm in the "did'nt get it till the end" camp, but when I watch the scene in Signal post Brokeback, Jack 's actions can only be described as "clever" .If Ennis would have instead ask Jack if " Did you see my blue shirt'? Jack would have to out right lie , thought he had it somewhere in that truck. What a  little thief!

It's kind of funny. I noticed Jack's little embarrassed acknowledgment when Ennis said he left the shirt up there, and knew it was him who took the shirt. I didn't catch the change of subject or the significance of the shirt missing until later. Just thought that's what Jack would do when he is in love with Ennis. Guess I didn't think highly of the man. And I also noticed the shirts flipped around in Ennis' trailer. Again didn't catch the significance of it until later in the forum. I guess I am observant but clueless when it comes to emotional clues and significance. One of those people who see but don't perceive. It explains a lot of the drama in my life.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Just came across this thread.  A lot of interesting discussion.

It's hard for me to imagine Jack holding on to anything other than the blood-stained shirts.  They symbolized so much to Ennis when he discovered them.  I don't know how forgiving I would have been had someone socked me after accidentally hitting them followed by a profuse and caring apology.  Obviously Ennis's punch had little impact on Jack's feelings for Ennis.  Jack likely looked past Ennis's surface anger and saw his frustration.  Their time together was being cut short and Ennis was a lot less accepting of the situation.  Jack had to believe on some level he meant something more to Ennis than Ennis was willing to admit.  It was reason enough to take the shirt. I can't think of anything else in Ennis's possession that would have been worth hanging on to.

[tpe]

Just came across this thread.  A lot of interesting discussion.

It's hard for me to imagine Jack holding on to anything other than the blood-stained shirts.  They symbolized so much to Ennis when he discovered them.  I don't know how forgiving I would have been had someone socked me after accidentally hitting them followed by a profuse and caring apology.  Obviously Ennis's punch had little impact on Jack's feelings for Ennis.   Jack likely looked past Ennis's surface anger and saw his frustration.  Their time together was being cut short and Ennis was a lot less accepting of the situation.  Jack had to believe on some level he meant something more to Ennis than Ennis was willing to admit.  It was reason enough to take the shirt. I can't think of anything else in Ennis's possession that would have been worth hanging on to.

Beautiful post, CSC!

I would even risk saying that the punch simply confirmed for Jack Ennis's true feelings -- that all his pen-up feelings couldn't really be hidden underneath Ennis's seemingly stoic exterior.  I think for the first time ever, Jack realized how much all of this meant to Ennis.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I would even risk saying that the punch simply confirmed for Jack Ennis's true feelings -- that all his pen-up feelings couldn't really be hidden underneath Ennis's seemingly stoic exterior.  I think for the first time ever, Jack realized how much all of this meant to Ennis.

I agree.  Had they avoided the altercation I'm certain Jack would have taken something to remember that Summer.  The shirt just symbolized so much more.

[LuvJackNasty]

Great posts CSC and TPE 

[tpe]

I agree.  Had they avoided the altercation I'm certain Jack would have taken something to remember that Summer.  The shirt just symbolized so much more.

I think in many ways, this is the bookened to the scene in Jacks room many years later.  At that point, it was Ennis's turn to realize how deeply Jack loved him.


Thanks LJN. 

[LuvJackNasty]

It is a bookend scene. I was having my  "out there" thoughts and was wondering if it would have been any different had it been Jack's blood that spilled in the fight. Was it important that it was Ennis's blood? Then I figured it was a full circle moment- Jack (the ministering angel) was tending to Ennis during paradise lost and then 20 years later when Ennis is lost and Jack lost to him, there is the ministering angel again- almost as if it was a continuance.

[FlwrChild]

LJN, that's beautiful. :\'( 

Jack as the ministering angel is a theme that emerges throughout the story, and never more than in those two scenes and the final confrontation.