Topic: What If Jack Hadn't Slipped?

[tpe]

It is a bookend scene. I was having my  "out there" thoughts and was wondering if it would have been any different had it been Jack's blood that spilled in the fight. Was it important that it was Ennis's blood? Then I figured it was a full circle moment- Jack (the ministering angel) was tending to Ennis during paradise lost and then 20 years later when Ennis is lost and Jack lost to him, there is the ministering angel again- almost as if it was a continuance.

ecce ego mittam angelum meum qui praecedat te et custodiat in via et introducat ad locum quem paravi

[LuvJackNasty]

Thomas, what does that say? 

[tpe]

Thomas, what does that say? 

Behold, I will send my angel, who shall go before thee, and keep thee in thy journey, and bring thee into the place that I have prepared.

[LuvJackNasty]

Thanks. Of course I'm tearing up now.

[FlwrChild]

Oh man, me too. :\'( 

[tpe]

Thanks LJN and Barb.  I was about to put the weeping emoticon, but thought that it was not needed.

[jackster]

Beautiful posts here LJN and TPE. It sounds like the general consensus is that there is no real substitute for Ennis’s shirt. That even if Jack had not accidentally bloodied Ennis’s nose and maybe (we can assume) Ennis did not punch Jack, Jack would still have been moved to steal the shirt.

Why? Jack could have guessed that Ennis wasn’t going far from where they were, all the clues were there, he wasn’t going to disappear. For himself he must have felt he was the one moving on, “he was crazy to be somewhere, anywhere, else than Lightning Flat” just didn’t know where. Maybe he would see Ennis again, but maybe not.

Life is so curious at times. Big events seem to follow in the footsteps of small, even unavoidable, unpredictable, random events. This whole scene develops from the capricious play of the weather, “Says there’s another storm comin’, movin’ in from the Pacific. Worse than this one” Suddenly playtime is over and real life is back, no wonder Ennis had to go and sit by himself on the hillside. Like the only curve on Deadhorse Road, he’s the victim of circumstance again.

Like Ennis and Jack meeting at all, life’s great beauty and tragedy are all rolled into one. Annie is really a master; she deserves every praise she gets.

[FlwrChild]

She sure does.

I'm not sure I see Jack as thinking that he's moving on, at least not from Ennis anyway. His feelings at the time of parting that summer are not addressed in the SS, although it's only too clear in the movie that he doesn't want them to end. And of course, he comes back for Ennis and then clings tightly to him for the rest of his life, so his taking the shirt makes sense by the end in the context of everything that has gone before. In that moment, though, I think he already knew that he might not see Ennis again, but probably more from the circumstances forcing both of them to part than a conscious choice on his part to do so. Either way, he knew he wanted a piece of Ennis to hold onto, some part of their summer that he could take back into real life with him. Does any of that make sense?

[jackster]

Yeah FC, I'd agree. Didn't mean to imply that Jack thought he was movin' on past or away from Ennis. Only that he knew his life may take him other places where he wouldn't be able see Ennis who he figured would still be around central Wyoming. Jack was headed out to Texas, the Army, rodeoin', etc., somewhere else, even though he thought he might come back next summer. That was the sense of "moving on" I meant, in a physical sense not an emotional sense. Sorry for the confusion. I agree, I think Jack knew Ennis was locked into his heart somehow, maybe even he didn't even know how much in '63.

[FlwrChild]

  Of course. That makes total sense.

"I agree, I think Jack knew Ennis was locked into his heart somehow, maybe even he didn't even know how much in '63."

Well put.

[lancecowboy]

[...] a full circle moment- Jack (the ministering angel) was tending to Ennis during paradise lost and then 20 years later when Ennis is lost and Jack lost to him, there is the ministering angel again- almost as if it was a continuance.

ecce ego mittam angelum meum qui praecedat te et custodiat in via et introducat ad locum quem paravi

Behold, I will send my angel, who shall go before thee, and keep thee in thy journey, and bring thee into the place that I have prepared.

[...] he already knew that he might not see Ennis again, but probably more from the circumstances forcing both of them to part than a conscious choice on his part to do so. Either way, he knew he wanted a piece of Ennis to hold onto, some part of their summer that he could take back into real life with him. Does any of that make sense?

[...] I think Jack knew Ennis was locked into his heart somehow, maybe even he didn't even know how much in '63.

The angels in our lives are those with a piece of us in their hearts...what does that say to me when I have taken into my heart a piece of EnnisJack and all the wonderful people here?

 

[aintfoolin]

 Indeed, very well said , I both love and dislike this scene. I love it for it's emotional impact. Jack is still sporting the black eye, yet he knows what he has found and knows Ennis found it too. Had the shirt tucked away for himself in case the scneario that DID happen , happens.  After falling for each other on BBM Jack sees it's special meaning , but it's slipping away from him. He has to know, so he asks "Gonna do this again next summer"? Has to have some idea of where he stands at this point.. I feel he Knew what he wanted to happen for sure. Ennis's thoughts on the matter remained a mystery until Ennis brings up marrying Alma anyway despite of it all.  When Ennis said "well I guess I'll see ya around then" it was so final. I almost died for Jack then and there. He never came right out and asked Ennis bluntly or say what he really  wanted to say at the time but Jack did'nt exactly beat around the bush either. Ennis knew what Jack wanted to happen. Jack did'nt want it to end there. Niether did Ennis, not really.

I dislike it for the sheer realities of the two characters. Ennis is denying himself true love and knew it. The experiences on BBM with Jack changed something inside him. Made him vulnerable for the first time in his life. He knows Jack is the key to unlock him, the one who made him feel open and free. He knows he is throwing true happiness away with both hands. He had an out though, he was promised to Alma in marriage.. and he used that for cover at the moment, but moments later we see the manifestation of his true feelings and how it affected him concerning letting Jack drive off confused and hurt.  He may have been confused and conflicted  himself perhaps even mad at him self for letting it happen, but one thing's for sure if he coud've just found the words, instead and not kept himself on "safety" and saying in so many words., :A man's  gotta do what a man's gotta do " during that whole conversation, It would have givin him and Jack some hope. Just a little anyway....but that's Ennis bein Ennis. Just a few thoughts.

[tpe]

Beautiful posts here LJN and TPE. It sounds like the general consensus is that there is no real substitute for Ennis’s shirt. That even if Jack had not accidentally bloodied Ennis’s nose and maybe (we can assume) Ennis did not punch Jack, Jack would still have been moved to steal the shirt.

Why? Jack could have guessed that Ennis wasn’t going far from where they were, all the clues were there, he wasn’t going to disappear. For himself he must have felt he was the one moving on, “he was crazy to be somewhere, anywhere, else than Lightning Flat” just didn’t know where. Maybe he would see Ennis again, but maybe not.

Life is so curious at times. Big events seem to follow in the footsteps of small, even unavoidable, unpredictable, random events. This whole scene develops from the capricious play of the weather, “Says there’s another storm comin’, movin’ in from the Pacific. Worse than this one” Suddenly playtime is over and real life is back, no wonder Ennis had to go and sit by himself on the hillside. Like the only curve on Deadhorse Road, he’s the victim of circumstance again.

Like Ennis and Jack meeting at all, life’s great beauty and tragedy are all rolled into one. Annie is really a master; she deserves every praise she gets.

Thanks Jackster. 

I do feel that the shirt can't be substituted for something else.

But I think an image that is equally certral to all this is the struggle between Ennis and Jack.  I think the shirt sort of represents this entire struggle, and is symbolic of their whole relationship.

The first time I saw this, it reminded me so much of Jacob wrestling with the angel.  Some would say that it is Ennis wrestling with his inner demons, but I had wondered whether Proulx herself was somehow thinking about this biblical passage when she referred to Jack as an Angel:

The closet was a shallow cavity with a wooden rod braced across, a faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room. In the closet hung two pairs of jeans crease-ironed and folded neatly over wire hangers, on the floor a pair of worn packer boots he thought he remembered. At the north end of the closet a tiny jog in the wall made a slight hiding place and here, stiff with long suspension from a nail, hung a shirt. He lifted it off the nail. Jack’s old shirt from Brokeback days. The dried blood on the sleeve was his own blood, a gushing nosebleed on the last afternoon on the mountain when Jack, in their contortionistic grappling and wrestling, had slammed Ennis’s nose hard with his knee. He had stanched the blood, which was everywhere, all over both of them, with his shirtsleeve, but the stanching hadn’t held, because Ennis had suddenly swung from the deck and laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, wings folded.

And in Genesis:

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.  And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.  And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.  And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.  And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.  And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

[FlwrChild]

Oh Thomas, you got me again. :\'( 

[tpe]

Oh Thomas, you got me again. :\'( 

Thanks FlwrChild.  For me, the blessing on BBM was the benediction of blood, and the shirts bore witness that love had prevailed.

[jackster]

. . . But I think an image that is equally certral to all this is the struggle between Ennis and Jack.  I think the shirt sort of represents this entire struggle, and is symbolic of their whole relationship. . . .

Fascinating Thomas -
This whole blood aspect I find very interesting. It’s not really why I started this thread but it’s an interesting direction and directly related. I’ve felt that the fact that it was Ennis’s blood that was shed to be really interesting, it’s Ennis’s blood, but it’s Jack who is the one who sees the symbolic here and steals away the shirt (and it’s Jack that then becomes the martyr).

Maybe there is something deeper here, we always think of Jack and the shirts as shining a light for Ennis and his late realization of Jack’s love. However, maybe it is Ennis, or Ennis’s blood that first makes Jack realize the real depth his own love for Ennis, maybe not then and there on the mountain, but maybe later, years later, fours years later to be exact. Maybe Jack experiences the same kind of moment with those shirts up in Lightning Flat and then realizes how much he needs Ennis and that’s what energizes him to send the postcard in '67.

Then there is the whole thing with the dead sheep and the sheep’s blood, a whole other blood story. I think it is fascinating that Annie uses this blood symbol, as you have so intelligently pointed out Thomas, one of the most ancient symbols of all (along with sheep herding an ancient occupation).

[tpe]

Fascinating Thomas -
This whole blood aspect I find very interesting. It’s not really why I started this thread but it’s an interesting direction and directly related. I’ve felt that the fact that it was Ennis’s blood that was shed to be really interesting, it’s Ennis’s blood, but it’s Jack who is the one who sees the symbolic here and steals away the shirt (and it’s Jack that then becomes the martyr).

Maybe there is something deeper here, we always think of Jack and the shirts as shining a light for Ennis and his late realization of Jack’s love. However, maybe it is Ennis, or Ennis’s blood that first makes Jack realize the real depth his own love for Ennis, maybe not then and there on the mountain, but maybe later, years later, fours years later to be exact. Maybe Jack experiences the same kind of moment with those shirts up in Lightning Flat and then realizes how much he needs Ennis and that’s what energizes him to send the postcard in '67.

Then there is the whole thing with the dead sheep and the sheep’s blood, a whole other blood story. I think it is fascinating that Annie uses this blood symbol, as you have so intelligently pointed out Thomas, one of the most ancient symbols of all (along with sheep herding an ancient occupation).

Thanks jackster.  Wonderful thread.

I too felt that Ennis's blood on the shirts found its counterpoint in Jack's martyrdom.  Personally, I think both of them found their love as enshrined in the two shirts.  Remember that it was Jack that protected Ennis shirt for nearly 20 years, as if it were a host in a tabernacle.  It probably served as a witness for Jack throughout the years -- a witness to his abiding love for Ennis.

And yes, I think the dead sheep is a symbol of Jack. 

[lancecowboy]

Fascinating Thomas -
This whole blood aspect I find very interesting. It’s not really why I started this thread but it’s an interesting direction and directly related. I’ve felt that the fact that it was Ennis’s blood that was shed to be really interesting, it’s Ennis’s blood, but it’s Jack who is the one who sees the symbolic here and steals away the shirt (and it’s Jack that then becomes the martyr).

Maybe there is something deeper here, we always think of Jack and the shirts as shining a light for Ennis and his late realization of Jack’s love. However, maybe it is Ennis, or Ennis’s blood that first makes Jack realize the real depth his own love for Ennis, maybe not then and there on the mountain, but maybe later, years later, fours years later to be exact. Maybe Jack experiences the same kind of moment with those shirts up in Lightning Flat and then realizes how much he needs Ennis and that’s what energizes him to send the postcard in '67.

Then there is the whole thing with the dead sheep and the sheep’s blood, a whole other blood story. I think it is fascinating that Annie uses this blood symbol, as you have so intelligently pointed out Thomas, one of the most ancient symbols of all (along with sheep herding an ancient occupation).

Interesting discussion, fellas.

The first blood in the movie was Ennis coming on a bear...Jack's ministering resulted in their fingers touching, and electric sparks flew.

Ennis blood stained shirt was also the shirt that he wore most of the time on Brokeback Mountain. Jack saw Ennis almost the entire time in that shirt. SNIT, Ennis was wearing that shirt. Jack was buck naked washing that shirt, and also his own blue denim shirt after FNIT, and before SNIT. So he planned to be nice and clean for Ennis SNIT. No wonder Ennis buried his face on Jack's chest.

Dead sheep was symbolic of Earl, not Jack...and the dead coyote was symbolic of Ennis's revenge on homophobia, his resolve to go with his feelings, no fear, no reins, no regrets.

[tpe]

sheep was symbolic of Earl, not Jack...and the dead coyote was symbolic of Ennis's revenge on homophobia, his resolve to go with his feelings, no fear, no reins, no regrets.

Lance, I can't recall right now, but there is a whole thread devoted to this topic.  You will be interested in reading that.

The dead sheep, Earl, and Jack are all thematically linked, although I have discussed elsewhere why the dead sheep is really symbolic of Jack (as much as Earl forshadowed Jack's inevitable fate.)  All three are linked thematically by the use of the "death music" -- played first during the scene of the dead sheep, then heard in the Earl and Rich story, is heard again when Ennis looks at the postcard with "deceased" written over it, and finally, throughout the scenes in Lightning Flat. 

Finally, I have pointed out in numerous threads the explicit classical allusion of the dead sheep scene to the famous "ET IN ARCADIA EGO".    The fulfilment of this allusion finds meaning only in Jack's eventual death, years later.



Exstinctum Nymphae crudeli funere Daphnin
flebant - vos coryli testes et flumina Nymphis -
cum complexa sui corpus miserabile nati
atque deos atque astra vocat crudelia mater.
non ulli pastos illis egere diebus
frigida, Daphni, boves ad flumina, nulla neque amnem
libavit quadrupes nec graminis attigit herbam.
Daphni, tuum Poenos etiam ingemuisse leones
interitum montesque feri silvaeque loquuntur.
Daphnis et Armenias curru subiungere tigris
instituit, Daphnis thiasos inducere Bacchi
et foliis lentas intexere mollibus hastas.
vitis ut arboribus decori est, ut vitibus uvae,
ut gregibus tauri, segetes ut pinguibus arvis,
tu decus omne tuis. postquam te fata tulerunt,
ipsa Pales agros atque ipse reliquit Apollo.
grandia saepe quibus mandavimus hordea sulcis,
infelix lolium et steriles nascuntur avenae;
pro molli viola, pro purpureo narcisso
carduus et spinis surgit paliurus acutis.
spargite humum foliis, inducite fontibus umbras,
pastores - mandat fieri sibi talia Daphnis -
et tumulum facite et tumulo superaddite carmen:
'Daphnis ego in silvis, hinc usque ad sidera notus,
formosi pecoris custos, formosior ipse.'

[manhattangirl]

I may be wrong, but how male is it.  Blood shed during a battle,  a token of the  love were the shirts, was Jack the victor,  Ennis had to face who he was with Jack, and now had to face himself without him, how scared could he have been of that.   No flowers, no hearts.   But blood stains on a two old shirts, a possession prized by two who didn't have much to start with turned this item into a "Holy Grail".   

Women sheds blood during birth, Men during battle.   This was the battle on Brokeback, love, the giving and taking of love.

[jackster]

Great explanation tpe, I was just asking for this when you posted. I will do some looking for the thread. Great pic too, you’ve got to be an art major to come up with great stuff like that so quickly!

I’ve always seen the dead sheep as symbolic of the death of Ennis’s innocence or virginity and not so much a foreshadowing of Jack’s fate, but I think both views are probable.

LanceC, what an interesting observation on Ennis’s “first blood” being mopped up by Jack that night at the campfire, I never made that connection.  

So many smart people here, it’s continually amazing!!

[tpe]

Great explanation tpe, I was just asking for this when you posted. I will do some looking for the thread. Great pic too, you’ve got to be an art major to come up with great stuff like that so quickly!

I’ve always seen the dead sheep as symbolic of the death of Ennis’s innocence or virginity and not so much a foreshadowing of Jack’s fate, but I think both views are probable.

LanceC, what an interesting observation on Ennis’s “first blood” being mopped up by Jack that night at the campfire, I never made that connection.  

So many smart people here, it’s continually amazing!!

jackster , I am just amazed at how many probable meanings the shirts, the sheep, and BBM itself come to life in each of us.   Your interpretation of the dead sheep makes as much sense as mine or lance's.  It's been two years since the movie, and we continue to find new things to share with each other.

Back to the shirts: the notion of "first blood" is indeed apt.  This connects with manhattangirl's image of battle.

[aintfoolin]

I see the dead sheep as a symbol of sacrifice. Connecting what was going on in  FNIT at the  same time  the sheep was killed., in a way cleansing the way for Ennis to discover  a new chapter in his life.  A  symbolic veil  lifted from his eyes and Ennis finally took a good look at what was happening to him.The expression on Ennis's face as he viewed the sheep was not  necessarily a negative one. more of an inquisitive nature, An acknowledgement .The sacrifice had been made in order for Ennis to see a new and different life.  SNIT, Ennis found "permission" to further discover and uncover more of himself, when before he would never have thought it possible.  Blood shed in his favor.
 Ennis may have  connected  that with Jack having to die  in sacrifice in order that Ennis may be " enlightened to the true meaning of his experiences with Jack....particularly  the depth of Jack's love for him in the end. If Jack had'nt slipped, and taken the shirt, Ennis would have been living in darkness, instead of seeing the light. Now he could live in the light of Jack's love forever.  He swore to it.     Just a thought.

[tpe]

I see the dead sheep as a symbol of sacrifice. Connecting what was going on in  FNIT at the  same time  the sheep was killed., in a way cleansing the way for Ennis to discover  a new chapter in his life.  A  symbolic veil  lifted from his eyes and Ennis finally took a good look at what was happening to him.The expression on Ennis's face as he viewed the sheep was not  necessarily a negative one. more of an inquisitive nature, An acknowledgement .The sacrifice had been made in order for Ennis to see a new and different life.  SNIT, Ennis found "permission" to further discover and uncover more of himself, when before he would never have thought it possible.  Blood shed in his favor.
 Ennis may have  connected  that with Jack having to die  in sacrifice in order that Ennis may be " enlightened to the true meaning of his experiences with Jack....particularly  the depth of Jack's love for him in the end. If Jack had'nt slipped, and taken the shirt, Ennis would have been living in darkness, instead of seeing the light. Now he could live in the light of Jack's love forever.  He swore to it.     Just a thought.

Well, in many ways, both the sheep and shirts do symbolize sacrifice, no?  Yes, the blood is Ennis's blood, but at that point, it became a universal symbol of blood being shed in the name of love, I suppose.

[FlwrChild]

Wonderful insights. I love seeing all the different interpretations of the symbolism. And what is really remarkable is how well they all seem to flow together. Thank you all.