Author Topic: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers (Read 29666 times)

Patriot1 · « **Reply #30 on:** Sep 01, 2006, 12:37 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 30, 2006, 05:43 PM

When he meets Ennis again it's the summer of '67 ( four years after BBM) and Bobby is 8 months old; if this is June he was born in October '66, and logically, unless premature, conceived in January '66.Don;t know if Jack would have been rodeoing in the moddle of winter - seems unlikely.

If you want to use the SS to get your dates then I would say Annie got her dates wrong. There is no way Bobbie could have been conceived in December or January. All they were wearing at the rodeo were shirts. December or January would have been winter in Texas and would have required coats.

welshwitch · « **Reply #31 on:** Sep 01, 2006, 01:07 PM »

Same applies to the movie - if after the reunion they went up into the mountains in late September I rather think they'd have dies of exposure if they'd jumoed into a lake when they arrived. And on the way up the landscape looks anything but autumnal.

The time-scheme of the ss, as far as it's there, is entirely consistent - the movie isn't.

dalemidex · « **Reply #32 on:** Sep 01, 2006, 02:27 PM »

I think the rodeo where Lureen and Jack meet is in September if I recall correctly, based on the sign on the announcer's booth we see very briefly.

I've never quite been able to make all the dates come out correctly to figure out when Bobbie was conceived versus everything else. The closest I can make it come out is if Jack was simply mistaken in the "8 months old" comment. If Bobbie was conceived in September, he woudl have been more like 3 or possibly 4 months depending on exact dates and how long she carried him. Maybe Bobbie was 8 weeks old?

My gut is that Bobbie was conceived in the back seat of that car and that it was a hurry-up wedding. It's just my opinion, but the way the film presents us the scenes means something to me. We see them in the back seat, then there's a scene from Ennis (the grocery store), and the next Jack scene is immediately on Bobby. No intervening action, no explanation. To me, when a movie cuts from sex to a baby, it's saying something.

As for motivation, my opinion is that Lureen wasn't trying to get pregnant in the back seat but it happened. She was only too happy to do something her daddy wouldn't approve of, and be with a man her daddy wouldn't approve of. But I don't know that she was hoping the one-night-stand would rope her a husband.

As for Jack, I don't think he was thinking "if I knock her up I'm set for life". (Sorry for the crude way of putting that.) I think it was more an impulsive thing, but as it unfolded he was probably more than happy to have the meal ticket and lifestyle that marrying into the Newsome family was gonig to provide him.

But like I said this is all just my gut feeling and not easy to prove. Some might not even think that she was pregnant before the wedding.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #33 on:** Sep 01, 2006, 03:40 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Sep 01, 2006, 01:07 PM

Same applies to the movie - if after the reunion they went up into the mountains in late September I rather think they'd have dies of exposure if they'd jumoed into a lake when they arrived. And on the way up the landscape looks anything but autumnal.

The time-scheme of the ss, as far as it's there, is entirely consistent - the movie isn't.

Well, I guess it depends on where you are from. Connecticut and Wyoming are roughly on the same latitude and I remember swimming it the lake in mid October. Besides, when the boys jumped in they indicated the water was cold. That would be consistant with a September reunion.

As for the foliage, all I saw were evergreens and they don't turn color in the autum. They stay green year round. So the landscape would have looked the same summer and winter except of course when it snowed.

I think the movie is very consistant with the dates it presents.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #34 on:** Sep 01, 2006, 09:57 PM »

Quote from: dalemidex on Sep 01, 2006, 02:27 PM

I think the rodeo where Lureen and Jack meet is in September if I recall correctly, based on the sign on the announcer's booth we see very briefly.

Actually, the sign says,

Childress County Fair & Rodeo
4th Annual Rodeo
Aug 7 Rodeo Aug 14.

I have always seen that sign and when I was trying to calculate these dates I dismissed it for the following reason: Just down the road about a mile or three, there is a rodeo rink. I go twice a year to look at the "cowboys" to get new dream or fantasy material. Outside the rink near the road there is a big sign that announces the rodeo and dates so that passers by can see it, know there is a rodeo today and come in if they want to. Inside, however, the signs advertise the next event at that rink. Not much sense telling people who are watching the rodeo there is a rodeo today. But it is a good idea to tell them when the next rodeo is. Is that what they did here? Who knows. But it would make sense. The rodeo today advertising the next rodeo in August, just three months away. Oddly, the rodeos here are three months apart also.

Quote from: dalemidex

Maybe Bobbie was 8 weeks old?

Now THAT would make a lot more sense. Would Jack have waited 7 or 8 months to write to Ennis after the Grandparents/baby scene? Or, would he be more likely to write just after he was not included in the family baby gawking.

Quote from: dalemidex

As for motivation, my opinion is that Lureen wasn't trying to get pregnant in the back seat but it happened. She was only too happy to do something her daddy wouldn't approve of, and be with a man her daddy wouldn't approve of. But I don't know that she was hoping the one-night-stand would rope her a husband.

Well now, was Lureen the town slut? Did she drag guys into the back seat of her daddy's car all the time? Or was there something special about Jack that turned her on all of a sudden? Personally I don't think either is true. I think she saw a guy that was broke, uneducated and a definite daddy buster and she went after him. She knew her dad would never approve of her marrying Jack so she had to get pregnant. Otherwise maybe she would have had a condom to use with Jack if it was just a one night thing?

Now I don't know if Jack told Ennis the truth when he said his marriage was normal and all. But it sure does bother me that in almost 20 years they never had any more kids and we never see them intimate with each other like we see with Ennis and Alma. If Ang didn't want to make the movie longer by adding intimate scenes between Jack and Lureen he could simply have shown more kids as with Jenny and Junior. Was the back seat the one and only time? Is getting pregnant all Lureen wanted so she would have to marry Jack and get back at her father? There is one thing I am very sure of. If she had gone to her father and told him she wanted to marry Jack here father would have said no and that would be that. Hells bells, Lureen couldn't even win an argument with her father over a television being on or off and she is going to marry Jack against her father's wishes? No, I don't think so.

And then there is the fact that the only time we see intimacy between Jack and Laureen is in the back seat. ALL the other times they act like roommates. Even when Bobby and his welfare was involved she couldn't care less, she would call the teacher some other time when she got around to it. There wasn't any love, caring or concern for her own child. And it was obvious that Jack had to do everything where Bobby was concerned, the teacher didn't like him because he complained too much. Nah, Lureen was cold as ice except that once when she wanted Jack to get her pregnant.

Carefree Wind · « **Reply #35 on:** Sep 02, 2006, 02:15 AM »

Sometimes I wonder if the reason Jack married Lureen..was because of her money. Possibly he saw in her the financial means to get his idea of a little cow and calf operation underway..to turn his dream of a ranch and life with Ennis into reality...using her money.

welshwitch · « **Reply #36 on:** Sep 02, 2006, 07:21 AM »

That seems more likely to have been an unintended consequence - i don't see Jack as that calculating. but if LD made it clear he'd be happy if Jack disappeared with minimal fuss,and was ready to fund the disappearance, then Jack knew he had a possible source of money if he could persuade Ennis to go along with his plans. But one has to be careful in making claims about Jack - he says that LD " more or less said it", which is not quite as definite as he implies. I'm sure LD disapproved of Jack from the moment Lureen appeared with him, and I can imagine him thinking up ways to get rid of Jack, specially once he's provided the Newsome heir. However, if she were pregnant at the time they married and Bobby were only four months old at the time of the reunion, I should have thought it would look pretty odd for the marriage to breqk up so precipitately - if a hasty marriage were meant to conceal the fact that KLureen was pregnant and keep up the appearance of a happy marriage approved of by the family, logically it should have lasted more than a few months after the birth of Bobby.

tpe · « **Reply #37 on:** Sep 02, 2006, 04:07 PM »

Quote from: Carefree Wind on Sep 02, 2006, 02:15 AM

Sometimes I wonder if the reason Jack married Lureen..was because of her money. Possibly he saw in her the financial means to get his idea of a little cow and calf operation underway..to turn his dream of a ranch and life with Ennis into reality...using her money.

I would think that this is one reason. But I also think Jack was flattered that a pretty woman such as Lureen would actively pursue him...

welshwitch · « **Reply #38 on:** Sep 03, 2006, 01:46 PM »

There's also the fact that as far as we know she was the first chance he's ever had. In a society where marriage is the norm, it would be easier to marry; from what we see of Lightning Flat it wasn't exactly a social mecca; where was Jack going to meet girls? Maybe rodeoing, but he wasn't particularly successful at that, and in the ss admits that there are others better off and more professional than he who do far better. So maybe Lureen looked pretty good to him, attractive, lively, from a wealthy family, prepared to make the running, knwoing what she wants, and appearing in his life at a time when Ennis is long gone and even if he were not isn't a realistic prospect as a life partner.

tpe · « **Reply #39 on:** Sep 05, 2006, 02:15 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Sep 03, 2006, 01:46 PM

There's also the fact that as far as we know she was the first chance he's ever had. In a society where marriage is the norm, it would be easier to marry; from what we see of Lightning Flat it wasn't exactly a social mecca; where was Jack going to meet girls? Maybe rodeoing, but he wasn't particularly successful at that, and in the ss admits that there are others better off and more professional than he who do far better. So maybe Lureen looked pretty good to him, attractive, lively, from a wealthy family, prepared to make the running, knwoing what she wants, and appearing in his life at a time when Ennis is long gone and even if he were not isn't a realistic prospect as a life partner.

Yes, I do think there was also a sense of pragmatism and calculation in Jack's marriage to Lureen. But I would be the first to admit that most unions do have a healthy dose of pragmatism built in. After all, romantic love was never the norm for the greater part of human history.

Still, I would like to imagine that as far as how the movie portrayed both of them, there was a romantic element in jack's marriage to Lureen.

EnnisTwist · « **Reply #40 on:** Oct 18, 2006, 07:25 AM »

Quote from: Uptown_Gal on Feb 06, 2006, 08:54 PM

It's the money, honey. Jack would've divorced Lureen in a flash - for Ennis. However, because Ennis wouldn't and couldn't commit to him, Jack had no reason to give up his comfortable lifestyle w. Lureen. For what? He apparently enjoyed some of the creature comforts. Have you seen their house? Notice the paunch he develops as he gets older. Ennis once remarked that "Jack's not the restaurant type." I doubt that was the case after he married Lureen. Notice his late model trucks. Notice his fashionable clothes, like his L.L. Bean, quilted, down parka in their last scene together (I recognize it from the catalog).. Contrast that w. Ennis's faded clothes, beat-up truck and shabby trailer.

Jake stayed w. Lureen the way some wives stay w. their abusive husbands. Economics. If Ennis wouldn't commit to him, where would Jack go and what would he do if he left Lureen? For one, he'd be out of his lucrative sales position.

i totally agree with you but i wanted to add my 2 cents too

i think the question should rather be:
Why SHOULD Jack divorce Laureen?

Like it's been said before he had it good with her (money, safe home, perfect alibi for his 'lifestyle'), their son and i believe that Jack had the closest thing to love with her that was even possible for him, at least in the beginning of their realtionship.
Another important part that hasn't been mentioned yet is that Jack is, in contrast to Ennis, not a loner. I doubt that he could / would want to live on his own like Ennis did most of his life. So why should Jack give up his life in Texas if Ennis wouldn't want to commit to him (after Ennis' divorce it's obvious that he won't commit himself to Jack). He'd probably wouldn't get to see Ennis more often even if he had moved back to Wyoming (with Ennis being paranoid bout people finding out).

welshwitch · « **Reply #41 on:** Oct 18, 2006, 10:55 AM »

And being divorced would make Jack more vulnerable to gossip.

In any case, divorcing Lureen would mean losing his job and comfortable life for what? He could hardly settle down in Riverton and drop in on Ennis after work, given Ennis's fears.

EnnisTwist · « **Reply #42 on:** Oct 18, 2006, 02:04 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 18, 2006, 10:55 AM

And being divorced would make Jack more vulnerable to gossip.

In any case, divorcing Lureen would mean losing his job and comfortable life for what? He could hardly settle down in Riverton and drop in on Ennis after work, given Ennis's fears.

that's exatcly what I meant

welshwitch · « **Reply #43 on:** Oct 18, 2006, 04:24 PM »

Jack also has no skills - he couldn't build a career in rodeo, was employed in LD's company only because he was married to Lureen, and I doubt could have sold tractors up in Wyoming - different type of faming there, I should think. and he wasn;t likely to go back to working with stock - he wasn't much good as a sheepherder if you believe Aguirre.

EnnisTwist · « **Reply #44 on:** Oct 19, 2006, 06:03 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 18, 2006, 04:24 PM

Jack also has no skills - he couldn't build a career in rodeo, was employed in LD's company only because he was married to Lureen, and I doubt could have sold tractors up in Wyoming - different type of faming there, I should think. and he wasn;t likely to go back to working with stock - he wasn't much good as a sheepherder if you believe Aguirre.

I thought he was good at selling tractors.. He still could be a salesman up in Wyoming.. not necessary for tractors of course..

tpe · « **Reply #45 on:** Oct 19, 2006, 07:16 AM »

Quote from: EnnisTwist on Oct 19, 2006, 06:03 AM

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 18, 2006, 04:24 PM
Jack also has no skills - he couldn't build a career in rodeo, was employed in LD's company only because he was married to Lureen, and I doubt could have sold tractors up in Wyoming - different type of faming there, I should think. and he wasn;t likely to go back to working with stock - he wasn't much good as a sheepherder if you believe Aguirre.

I thought he was good at selling tractors.. He still could be a salesman up in Wyoming.. not necessary for tractors of course..

That is true. It is clearer in the screenplay than in the actual movie. In the movie, Lureen says to Jack that he was the only salesman they've got. In the screenplay (which was not followed exactly in the movie), Lureen says that Jack is the only salesman good enough to drive the new tractors -- as Lureen's father can't drive the new-fangled stuff.

To be sure, he was a good driver of tractors. He learned pretty fast, according to the screenplay.

Jack certainly had more of what we call "people skills" (note how he instigated the conversation with Randall -- and with the clown for that matter). He could in principle get by without Lureen and with Lureen's father's money.

goblondie · « **Reply #46 on:** Jun 24, 2007, 05:05 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Sep 05, 2006, 02:15 PM

Yes, I do think there was also a sense of pragmatism and calculation in Jack's marriage to Lureen. But I would be the first to admit that most unions do have a healthy dose of pragmatism built in. After all, romantic love was never the norm for the greater part of human history.

Still, I would like to imagine that as far as how the movie portrayed both of them, there was a romantic element in jack's marriage to Lureen.

I think youre right both about the calculation and romantic element. But I also think Jack really liked Lureen, dont think he loved her but she was a fresh and beautifull girl, not same type as Alma but more open like Jack himself.
I dont think Lureen was pregant when they married , maybe she even married Jack to stand up against her fathers will, but as soon as she got the baby she more or less forgot Jack.

tpe · « **Reply #47 on:** Jun 25, 2007, 07:12 AM »

Quote from: goblondie on Jun 24, 2007, 05:05 PM

I think youre right both about the calculation and romantic element. But I also think Jack really liked Lureen, dont think he loved her but she was a fresh and beautifull girl, not same type as Alma but more open like Jack himself.
I dont think Lureen was pregant when they married , maybe she even married Jack to stand up against her fathers will, but as soon as she got the baby she more or less forgot Jack.

I think it did flatter Jack to have Lureen. I would agree that he probably liked her and had dreams for the 2 of them.

And I do agree that Lureen married Jack in part to stand up against her father. But I do think she also desired Jack at that point in time.

welshwitch · « **Reply #48 on:** Jun 26, 2007, 02:30 PM »

I sometimes think Jack tends rather to go with things as they happen - Lureen happens at a time when he's not doing well in rodeoing, won't want to go home and admit as much to his father, who was successful at it, hasn't seen Ennis for some time, hasn't had much success in picking anyone up in a bar - amybe he's lonely and doesn't know where to go when she appears and so evidently pursues him. Other than that she's female and he prefers men, what's not to like? She's a rich man's daughter, pretty, evidently desirable and a local prize, evidently attracted to him enough to come after him - marriage in the abstract is probably a good camouflage for his real inclinations.

tpe · « **Reply #49 on:** Jun 27, 2007, 06:58 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jun 26, 2007, 02:30 PM

I sometimes think Jack tends rather to go with things as they happen - Lureen happens at a time when he's not doing well in rodeoing, won't want to go home and admit as much to his father, who was successful at it, hasn't seen Ennis for some time, hasn't had much success in picking anyone up in a bar - amybe he's lonely and doesn't know where to go when she appears and so evidently pursues him. Other than that she's female and he prefers men, what's not to like? She's a rich man's daughter, pretty, evidently desirable and a local prize, evidently attracted to him enough to come after him - marriage in the abstract is probably a good camouflage for his real inclinations.

Although I am not sure as to your comment about Lureen and Jack's rodeoing, I do fully agree that Jack just took things as they happened. Lureen must have found him an easy catch. Besides, his comment to Lureen in the car: "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going" pretty much tells us that Lureen was in control and that he would go in whatever direction she took him.