Topic: "Did You Ever Get The Feeling He knew That She Knew?"

[manhattangirl]

My apologies if you have been over this before.  I just wanted to know what you think. 

Did Ennis know Alma knew about him and Jack?  In ss when Alma sees the reunion kiss, there was hint of "Well,  you caught us." tone in the ss.  In the Thanksgiving scene in the film there was no straight up denial, but Ennis defending Jack, himself,  what they did have, and condemning Alma her ignorance.  Did he have a feeling that Alma knew all along, but it all came out on Thanksgiving?

At that point, after the revelation, this should say more than anything that Ennis was committed to Jack in his way, because  wouldn't he have ended it, especially if  that someone who knew was his ex-wife.  But instead he kept going back to Jack.  For someone who didn't say "I love you," feared love, he suffered a great deal for love.

What do you think?  And again my apologies if this has already been discussed.   

[Tony]

  Hi, Manhattangirl.   Yeah, the SS is murky on the subject, but it seems to me, in the film, the intensity of the kitchen scene says-no, Ennis
didn't realize how obvious it all was.  And as for her, she had kept it to herself, maybe certain, most of the time, in denial the rest of the time.
I even think, as she accused, she was holding out just the trace of a hope, the slightest trace, he could explain some of it away.  He didn't.
The violence of his reaction was the last confirmation.  MG, I say this because I have had experiences where I was CERTAIN of something and
yet didn't want to face up to it, and then, with confrontation, the absolute certainty stole from me my last chance the worst wasn't true.
  By the way, have always felt he let that truck driver win the fight that night, as a sort of penance for his having threatened his wife.  Ennis
didn't lose fights.  It seemed to me he felt he deserved punishment for raising his fist to her, and let the guy win.

[manhattangirl]

Great pick up Tony, on Ennis,  he doesn't lose fights, and he was stone cold sober, and allowed himself to be beaten for his sin.  This is one complicated man.

[lamusica]

As jerasjr pointed out in the Thanksgiving scenes thread, the SS is quite clear that Ennis knew Alma had seen them kissing.  He introduced Jack to Alma and vice versa, when they broke apart ( as opposed to when they went upstairs as in the film).  This just makes me wonder why Ang Lee decided to go in the other direction -- that of  Ennis not knowing what Alma had known.  It certainly changed a lot of the subsequent action in the film.

Also, while I think Ennis MAY have let the truckdriver win the fight, I think his reason for that was a bit different.  I think Ennis just gave up at that point.  He had had a terribly emotional episode with Alma, now knew that she knew what his relationship with Jack was, and just gave up and let the other guy beat him up.  Penitence? Maybe.  But imo, the fight had just gone out of him.  His delusions had just been shattered, and he was emotionally worn out.

[manhattangirl]

My interpretation from the ss,  is that she opened the door twice, it was that second time, that's in question, for me anyway.   One of Ennis's fear was discovery.   I'm just wondering if someone who feared discovery to the point of almost paranoia, but continue with a pretense of a marriage with a wife who possibly knew.  Was Ennis that good at partitioning his mind?

[tpe]

I personally think that Ennis and Alma knew how things were for most of the intervening years of marriage after the reunion.  As I said elsewhere, Ennis being so careless about hiding inconsistencies almost looked like he was chalenging Alma.  I think the unwritten rule was that they did not talk about it in the open. 

As for the fight with the truckdriver, I just thought that Ennis was just to angry to realize that he had indeed picked on a person who was much bigger and stronger than him.  I don't think he allowed the truckdriver to beat him up.  I think the truckdriver was just bigger and stronger than he was.  But I do agree that he probably wanted the beating -- as a sort of self-punishment.

[jackster]

. . .  This just makes me wonder why Ang Lee decided to go in the other direction -- that of Ennis not knowing what Alma had known.  It certainly changed a lot of the subsequent action in the film.

Just MHO, but it seems that Ang (McMurtry & Ossana actually) included a lot more of Alma, and scenes following the reunion with Alma & Ennis in the film than was in the SS. If Ennis had been shown KNOWING that Alma saw them in the movie, then "the gig is up", so to speak. It would be difficult to imagine those subsequent scenes if both Ennis and Alma have confronted each other with this knowledge, and it is difficult for me to imagine those scenes making much sense if she knows (and he knows she knows) he's been passionately kissing a man. In the SS they just sort of grow apart (as I recall), which I've always interpreted as the end of sexual relations. The way it is presented in the movie the "lets pretend I'm not queer" storyline can be maintained several years ('67 to '75 in movie time). IMHO.

[Tony]

     Manhattengirl, please forgive me, but this topic is, for me, the most painful that could ever come up.  Had just been telling someone that I
put too much of my personal life in my replies, and, wham---you hit a subject that has just about destroyed my life.  What did loved ones know,
when did they know it, and how did they use what they knew?  Will keep to my resolve, of keeping my private life to myself, but will use my
experience to give a different perspective.
    Alma knew.  It's just that there was some unreality to the secret---it didn't make sense to her, didn't fit.  I think, like Aguirre, she had a
tilt towards letting Ennis off the hook and blaming it all on Jack (she called JACK nasty, not her husband).  But, like me, she lived with the
knowledge, because she had no other choice.  And on the issue of deceit, I don't believe she was malevolently deceitful, by not challenging
him much earlier.  Basically, she was powerless.  And she did love him, as was shown, in the film, by that weak, tearful wave good-bye from
the window, as Jack and Ennis headed off.  I think she was a good woman, because she never tried to get even.
  Did Ennis know she knew? Doesn't look like it or there wouldn't have been that melt-down in the kitchen.  What speaks well for Ennis was that,
although unfaithful to her and engaged in deceit, it wasn't by choice.  He didn't WANT to hurt her.  And very important, to me, he was not
of that sickening sneak mentality whereby great satisfaction is derived from deception or lying.  I never even knew that infected state of mind
even existed, but it is seductive and can possess and destroy people who need to feel powerful.  That wasn't Ennis.  He never used his secret
to hurt her.
   What they knew and when they knew it is a great topic, but I gotta say---both were innocent of any great evil, as they kept their secrets,
and that makes them both, for me, very, very good people.  They dealt with all this without power agendas, or malice, and got through, as best
as they could.

[lamusica]

Beautiful post, Tony.  You are right.  They are both good people caught up in a bad situation.  They did the best they could.  That's why we are still discussing them two years after the movie came out.  They are worthy of our conversations about them, and our opinions, crazy or true.  So, we are not wasting time with this topic; rather, we are describing possibilities and probabilities as we have experienced them in our own lives.  Imo, this sharing is a beautiful thing!  We are not alone.

[manhattangirl]

Thank you for all of you heartfelt posts.  The effects of Ennis and Jack is so clear in Alma and Ennis. 

I don't know how to explain it, to me "The sweet life" Jack talked about, was the exact thing Ennis needed, because his life was not sweet, nor had the love Ennis needed.   Ennis could in no way give the life Alma wanted, he wasn't capable of it, because this was not him.  His life was with Jack. He really couldn't function fully when he wasn't with him.   

Alma resentment was understandable,  when she sat at that table, and reminded him of his fishing gear, that he almost forgot, the look on her face was like realization she lost him, and the joy on Ennis face when he steps out of truck and sees Jack, you almost know this is the first time he smiled in  a year.

Remember the scene where Jack kissed Lureen goodbye, and Ennis rushing out of the door, leaving Alma at the table.  There was no one but Jack for Ennis, how could either Alma or Ennis not see this, not feel this?   The divorce inevitable, a slow corroding like AP said set in.   

It wasn't secrets and lies, that ate away at the marriage, but Ennis living a life that wasn't meant for him, that he didn't fit, but tried to make it fit.   Ennis was living a life contrary to who he was.  How many of us are guilty of this?

IMO.   

[tpe]

Thank you for all of you heartfelt posts.  The effects of Ennis and Jack is so clear in Alma and Ennis. 

I don't know how to explain it, to me "The sweet life" Jack talked about, was the exact thing Ennis needed, because his life was not sweet, nor had the love Ennis needed.   Ennis could in no way give the life Alma wanted, he wasn't capable of it, because this was not him.  His life was with Jack. He really couldn't function fully when he wasn't with him.   

Alma resentment was understandable,  when she sat at that table, and reminded him of his fishing gear, that he almost forgot, the look on her face was like realization she lost him, and the joy on Ennis face when he steps out of truck and sees Jack, you almost know this is the first time he smiled in  a year.

Remember the scene where Jack kissed Lureen goodbye, and Ennis rushing out of the door, leaving Alma at the table.  There was no one but Jack for Ennis, how could either Alma or Ennis not see this, not feel this?   The divorce inevitable, a slow corroding like AP said set in.   

It wasn't secrets and lies, that ate away at the marriage, but Ennis living a life that wasn't meant for him, that he didn't fit, but tried to make it fit.   Ennis was living a life contrary to who he was.  How many of us are guilty of this?

IMO.   

MG, do you think it would have been better had Alma not known?  Would Ennis have behaved differently, more cautiously?

I do agree that it was the sweet life that Ennis really needed.  Had Jack not appeared during the reunion, I still suspect that a sense of emptiness would have corroded the marriage with Alma anyway.  Personally, whether or not Alma knew about Jack, perhaps the enstrangement was inevitable...

[Tony]

      Manhattangirl, your last sentence is really open to a little more wondering.  You've said Ennis was living a life contrary to who he was, and
implied that was the tragedy.  Am sure he had conflicts about who he was, but not so sure he was living a lie.
     Seems to me there are two distinct conflicts that can happen in our lives.  In the first, we are living a lie.  Have seen that so very often.
Guys who believed they were tough and played tough, but were quick to back down from a real fight.  People who portrayed themselves to
themselves and others as nice, decent, tolerant people, but whose track record showed a lot of deliberate damage to others.  That type is
living a lie about who they really are. 
   But there are plenty of people who are what I would call "hybrids", who are not living a lie but just have different parts of their background
and nature.  Have noticed another Brokie in this forum that seems to be, like me, equally comfortable with books and ideas, and also being
frisky, a little rowdy, and probably very comfortable in a tavern.  Neither he nor I are living a lie- it's just a valid hybrid nature where both
personality traits are there and legitimate.  Mine derives from distinct, real differences, in my background.  For example, relatively poor family,
but private school education.  Friends that were hot-shots, along with friends that were kind of scuzzy. 
   Ennis may not have been living a lie.  The fan-fics want the clouds to part, a ray of sunshine beam down, and Ennis suddenly sees: He's gay,
and he quits lying and lives happily ever after with Jack.  Fulfilling the agenda of politically correct agendas.  Maybe that wasn't Ennis.  If he
was a hybrid, then he WAS comfortable with a heterosexual part of his nature and was struggling with his need for one particular male that
had fulfilled another legitimate part of his soul.  That's not living a lie.  That's being dealt a bad hand in the card game of life.
  Lamusica-thanks for agreeing these were good people, doing the best they could.  Your post was soothing and is well-founded.  They had
no malice, and that is the real killer---malice.

[lamusica]

I understand what you are saying, Tony, I'm one of those poor kids with a private school education, also.  I ran the socio-economic gamut of friends, from ivy leaguers to stoners.  I happen to find this a very broadening way to grow up.  One learns to be open-minded, non-judgemental, and a true listener and observer of life.

So far as Ennis is concerned, he is what he is.  I don't think he is uncomfortable with who he is in any way except where Jack is concerned.  He understands his economic situation; he understands his social position.   He just doesn't understand how or why he's got to have Jack in his life.  The fact that he has these feelings for Jack makes him doubt his sexuality. IMO, that's the one thing he is NOT comfortable with.  We have beat this situation to death in many threads, but it still breathes life into every conversation about Ennis.  Is he GAY or is he STRAIGHT?  How does he see himself, and is he right?

[Tony]

    Lamusica, ain't that the truth-the issue of Ennis being gay or straight has been beaten to death, and yet, as you noted, keeps returning.
And because this film is a great work of art, it leaves that there as a tension that produces wonder and, even better, thought.
   Have already said a lot on that subject, but think I might could add something new.  The question.  Can a love be so great that it can
transcend sexual preference?  And not re-define the person?  They are the same, but now deeply troubled?  Is that possible?  Was Ennis
that lonely and Jack the only cure?
   I hope I remember correctly, but I believe it was Jackster who said Ennis was the first REAL man (not a poser) who accepted Jack.  And
surely Jack was the first person to ratify Ennis in every dimension of his being a person.  Can love transcend sexual preference?  And I wonder,
would that be different chemistry with 2 women, than with 2 men, if it could be?  I wonder when they'll do the BBM for women, leaving us
asking....the same question.  I do know of women, battered by men, who felt love only for one other woman, and yet were straight.
Tough area.  Ennis and Jack were battered by their fathers and by the world.  Dunno.

[chameau]

Very interesting new thread manhattangirl, thanks for starting it.   However,  it tends slightly to go off topic, if you don't mind Brokies, the subject here is:

"Did You Ever Get The Feeling He knew That She Knew?"

Meaning Ennis knew Alma knew, huh?

Thanks!

[manhattangirl]

Tony there were no lies told, the basis of this story, "love a force of nature".    Ennis was living a life contrary to that love he needed, and to his nature, his love for Jack.   We spoke of the fear of discovery, and the fear of love.  He knew she knew, then what of his fear?   Discovery or love itself, and the impact of an unspoken knowledge that looms over these three people. 

He loved Jack, it's just that simple. It was everything else that's so damn complicated.   

[aintfoolin]

  Hi, Manhattangirl.   Yeah, the SS is murky on the subject, but it seems to me, in the film, the intensity of the kitchen scene says-no, Ennis
didn't realize how obvious it all was.  And as for her, she had kept it to herself, maybe certain, most of the time, in denial the rest of the time.
I even think, as she accused, she was holding out just the trace of a hope, the slightest trace, he could explain some of it away.  He didn't.
The violence of his reaction was the last confirmation.  MG, I say this because I have had experiences where I was CERTAIN of something and
yet didn't want to face up to it, and then, with confrontation, the absolute certainty stole from me my last chance the worst wasn't true.
  By the way, have always felt he let that truck driver win the fight that night, as a sort of penance for his having threatened his wife.  Ennis
didn't lose fights.  It seemed to me he felt he deserved punishment for raising his fist to her, and let the guy win.

 It would make perfect sense that Ennis had some suspicion that Alma knew. Her demeanor toward Jack when Ennis introduced her to him was an obvious sign, but at that point, I don't think Ennis really cared.  A total disregard for her  feelings and concerns. Did'nt even question her tears.  What could he say? He was'nt acting normal, but niether was she.  His treatment of her the following morning in the reunion scene spoke volumes. As long as she kept quiet about any suspicions she may have had about him and Jack , all was well with Ennis, but I think he knew she suspected something.  I also feel she resigned herself to the denial ,while even reminding Ennis at one point, he was leaving to see his "fishing buddy" WITHOUT his fishing gear.! In the Thankgiving scene ( which I recently watched) she broke the unspoken rule of knowing silence.

 She is filled with so much resentment towards Jack already  and needs to know if he is still in the picture.

And then Ennis pushes her over the edge with his "once burned" comment, implying that she was somehow to blame in their breakup by being the one having filed divorce papers on him. The last straw.  She felt imo, that "Jack Nasty" and Ennis have played her for a fool long enough, and fights back the best way she knows how. By exposing the "unspoken"/suspicion, truth about he and Jack's relationship.  Of course Ennis, always one who made sure Alma knew who wore the pants in that relationship reacts violently to her aggressiveness. She forces Ennis to admit what he has suspected  she knew all along. Even tagging fishing line. He could no longer hide behind her silence. She said it out loud.


Certainly Ennis is great at punishing himself and knew he was wrong about raising his fist to Alma so I agree with Tony that Ennis gave up that fight. Just laid there and got beat up. Of course that truck driver was huge. 
Almost felt sorry for her as a true victim in this ,but she came across as such a homophobe about it  "Jack Nasty"? Not good.  My take.

[tpe]

It would make perfect sense that Ennis had some suspicion that Alma knew. Her demeanor toward Jack when Ennis introduced her to him was an obvious sign, but at that point, I don't think Ennis really cared.  A total disregard for her  feelings and concerns. Did'nt even question her tears.  What could he say? He was'nt acting normal, but niether was she.  His treatment of her the following morning in the reunion scene spoke volumes. As long as she kept quiet about any suspicions she may have had about him and Jack , all was well with Ennis, but I think he knew she suspected something.  I also feel she resigned herself to the denial ,while even reminding Ennis at one point, he was leaving to see his "fishing buddy" WITHOUT his fishing gear.! In the Thankgiving scene ( which I recently watched) she broke the unspoken rule of knowing silence.

 She is filled with so much resentment towards Jack already  and needs to know if he is still in the picture.

And then Ennis pushes her over the edge with his "once burned" comment, implying that she was somehow to blame in their breakup by being the one having filed divorce papers on him. The last straw.  She felt imo, that "Jack Nasty" and Ennis have played her for a fool long enough, and fights back the best way she knows how. By exposing the "unspoken"/suspicion, truth about he and Jack's relationship.  Of course Ennis, always one who made sure Alma knew who wore the pants in that relationship reacts violently to her aggressiveness. She forces Ennis to admit what he has suspected  she knew all along. Even tagging fishing line. He could no longer hide behind her silence. She said it out loud.


Certainly Ennis is great at punishing himself and knew he was wrong about raising his fist to Alma so I agree with Tony that Ennis gave up that fight. Just laid there and got beat up. Of course that truck driver was huge. 
Almost felt sorry for her as a true victim in this ,but she came across as such a homophobe about it  "Jack Nasty"? Not good.  My take.

I do agree that given Ennis's callous disregard for covering his tracks, he must have somehow expected Alma to have known.  His carelessness can be quite breathtaking -- especially throughout the reunion scenes, with special emphasis on the morning after.

As for the fishing gear, you know, I half-expected that Alma wanted a goodbye kiss from Ennis -- and it was not the fishing gear per se that she was alluding to.  I don't know it you would agree with me on this, but when I first watched the movie, I thought she was expecting to be kissed.

In any case, by the time this scene came along, I had no doubt in my mind that he knew she knew, but just didn't care -- so long as they respected each other's silences.  The Thanksgiving scene put a stop to all the "conventions".

[manhattangirl]

I do agree that given Ennis's callous disregard for covering his tracks, he must have somehow expected Alma to have known.  His carelessness can be quite breathtaking -- especially throughout the reunion scenes, with special emphasis on the morning after.

As for the fishing gear, you know, I half-expected that Alma wanted a goodbye kiss from Ennis -- and it was not the fishing gear per se that she was alluding to.  I don't know it you would agree with me on this, but when I first watched the movie, I thought she was expecting to be kissed.In any case, by the time this scene came along, I had no doubt in my mind that he knew she knew, but just didn't care -- so long as they respected each other's silences.  The Thanksgiving scene put a stop to all the "conventions".

I agree with you, I got that sense when I watch that scene,  and Alma took on her "misery voice"   and Ennis just walks out.    Ennis subconsciously checked out that marriage years ago, but Alma still looks for something,  anything to hold on to, Ennis didn't give much, I can understand her bitterness.

[tpe]

I agree with you, I got that sense when I watch that scene,  and Alma took on her "misery voice"   and Ennis just walks out.    Ennis subconsciously checked out that marriage years ago, but Alma still looks for something,  anything to hold on to, Ennis didn't give much, I can understand her bitterness.

I actually thought that his taking the fishing gear instead of giving her a kiss was his way of snubbing her.

In a lot of these seens, there seemed to have been a subtext hidden underneath what they say and do, no?  The intereesting thing about this movie is that you can choose to read it on more than one level.  And the question of whether he knew Alma knew is certainly a prime example of this, IMO.

[manhattangirl]

I actually thought that his taking the fishing gear instead of giving her a kiss was his way of snubbing her.

In a lot of these seens, there seemed to have been a subtext hidden underneath what they say and do, no?  The intereesting thing about this movie is that you can choose to read it on more than one level.  And the question of whether he knew Alma knew is certainly a prime example of this, IMO.

Sure, remember the scence where she wanted to the church social, he content to stay right there, there was no give in him.   He save up himself for Jack, and when he return from him, there was nothing left for her.  He knew she knew why.

[tpe]

Sure, remember the scence where she wanted to the church social, he content to stay right there, there was no give in him.   He save up himself for Jack, and when he return from him, there was nothing left for her.  He knew she knew why.

That's true.  I did feel that he was intentionally peevish at her too.  It seemed to me that the subtext was that he knew she knew, and he resented having to give in to anything for her, even out of guilt.  If there was anything he seemed intent on not feeling, it was guilt.

[manhattangirl]

But  thats what bugs the heck out of me.  What was the reason for this resentment.  What could he possibly hold against her?  The fact that she prevented him from being with Jack, the fact she wasn't Jack,  or he was living a life that wasn't him, and blamed her for it, or the fact she just knew? 

[tpe]

But  thats what bugs the heck out of me.  What was the reason for this resentment.  What could he possibly hold against her?  The fact that she prevented him from being with Jack, the fact she wasn't Jack,  or he was living a life that wasn't him, and blamed her for it, or the fact she just knew? 

I suspect that he resented her because he actually felt guilty, deep inside, for betraying her.  He would have felt on top of the world with the affirmation from Jack that he was loved, but Alma's presence reminded him that that love came at the expense of betraying Alma and the children, and resented having to feel this.  Does this make sense?

[aintfoolin]

But  thats what bugs the heck out of me.  What was the reason for this resentment.  What could he possibly hold against her?  The fact that she prevented him from being with Jack, the fact she wasn't Jack,  or he was living a life that wasn't him, and blamed her for it, or the fact she just knew? 

 MG, all the above.  And as Tpe said , Guilt. She stood in the way of absolute free access to Jack, the one he really wanted, yet he could'nt outright betray her openly. But as we can see, when time came to meet Jack, he was almost a different person, and he did'nt give two craps about the way it looked ,or felt to Alma. Maybe he was'nt even conciously aware of it, but he lit up, laughed, joked, smiled....had an excuse ready for all Alma's concerns, wether they made sense or not. Again, as long as she kept quiet about what he knew she knew, he was fine.
He grew to resent her presence between he and Jack. His bedroom antics with Alma spoke volumes, .........and he even knew she did'nt like that position, but it reminded him of you know who. I always said he should've never married her, don't even think he wanted to , but felt obligated.  too much to explain if he did'nt, Things may have turned out alot differently for him and Jack, who knows ? but now he has major obligations, Alma being one of them. He made his bed, but he did'nt lay easily it.  MO.

[manhattangirl]

MG, all the above.  And as Tpe said , Guilt. She stood in the way of absolute free access to Jack, the one he really wanted, yet he could'nt outright betray her openly. But as we can see, when time came to meet Jack, he was almost a different person, and he did'nt give two craps about the way it looked ,or felt to Alma. Maybe he was'nt even conciously aware of it, but he lit up, laughed, joked, smiled....had an excuse ready for all Alma's concerns, wether they made sense or not. Again, as long as she kept quiet about what he knew she knew, he was fine.
He grew to resent her presence between he and Jack. His bedroom antics with Alma spoke volumes, .........and he even knew she did'nt like that position, but it reminded him of you know who. I always said he should've never married her, don't even think he wanted to , but felt obligated.  too much to explain if he did'nt, Things may have turned out alot differently for him and Jack, who knows ? but now he has major obligations, Alma being one of them. He made his bed, but he did'nt lay easily it.  MO.

That's why I think something in Ennis's thinking was dangerous,  his manipulating the passions of two people, Alma and Jack.  Alma he wanted to stay married to, but not committed to, and Jack he never wanted to let go of but not committing totally to him either.  I don't know how  he thought he could pull this off without some kind of blowback. 

[lancecowboy]

That's why I think something in Ennis's thinking was dangerous,  his manipulating the passions of two people, Alma and Jack.  Alma he wanted to stay married to, but not committed to, and Jack he never wanted to let go of but not committing totally to him either.  I don't know how  he thought he could pull this off without some kind of blowback. 

Not that I am defending Ennis, but I am not sure if he is consciously manipulating Alma and Jack.

With Alma, his response in the motel to Jack was clear, "I'm stuck with what I got." I don't think he wants to stay married to Alma. He just didn't think divorce was an option.

With Jack, he is as attached as Jack was. He couldn't quit Jack even if he wanted to, and he didn't know how to change the circumstance to allow more time with Jack.

I think his callous disregard for Alma was his way of resenting being stuck. He stood up for Alma by the river, when Jack said, "You called that a life?" Ennis wasn't happy with Alma, but he didn't dislike her, not until the Thanksgiving scene when she called Jack Nasty.

The church social scene is also typical of some marriage when the romance is out of it. Ennis being the loner was never the social type. He would never fit into the Texan dance hall circuit, and apparently not the Riverton church socials either. Even in the bar, he was always alone. Alma didn't offer to get a baby sitter and just spend time with Ennis alone. That's what most failing marriages need the most, to get the romance back into it. Alma was more interested in the social scene. She could've gone on her own, but that would look good to the neighbours. That's the difference between Alma and Cassie, who was happy being alone with Ennis doing what ever HE wanted. The same with Jack. And Ennis felt happiest with Jack because they can be cowboys together. Cassie was outside of that part of Ennis' life, an important part.

Alma's knowledge of Ennis and Jack was the driving force to end the marriage, but I don't think it made Ennis recent her.

[aintfoolin]

That's why I think something in Ennis's thinking was dangerous,  his manipulating the passions of two people, Alma and Jack.  Alma he wanted to stay married to, but not committed to, and Jack he never wanted to let go of but not committing totally to him either.  I don't know how  he thought he could pull this off without some kind of blowback. 

I won't say that it was any concious planned out thing with Ennis finding himself in the position he was in. More like kinda caught up in feelings he could'nt control . What was he thinking? He was'nt , he was *feeling* more than anything else. The scales where tilted in Jack's favor, he had no idea how to go back to feeling for her. He was in the middle ,playing both ends. He could be honest with Jack about Alma, but could'nt be honest about Jack to Alma and she knew it. Finally , it was Alma who made the decision for him and he knew it. Ater 4 years she could'nt motivate Ennis to do better by her. His heart just was not in it.

Him being "stuck" with what he has, can be interpreted in different ways imo. He feels obligated to his family? Yes, but no doubt ,he feels trapped and bogged down with  an unfufilled marriage, reponsibility of the wife and kids, job, money etc..Jack represents the freedom for Ennis that's just out of reach. he quickly recognizes Ennis's dilema after the reunion reception." You and Alma, that's a life"? not just the poverty, but that fact that Ennis was with a woman when  he knows he'd rather be with a man.

Can't say Alma did'nt try though, she did. She lost out, along with her hopes with Ennis. Perhaps she felt it was something she could change in Ennis, a passing "experiment" of some kind. ( I try to understand her and she becomes as complicated as Ennis!)  but, the  *fishing trips*  continue.  By then , Ennis had become emotionally  committed to Jack. She was way off trying to compete with this, even  as Ennis knew "it aint her fault" , She is second in line behind Jack.

 The marriage was over almost from the start imo, a year later after parting with his "never shoulda let you outta my sight" statement. A year into marriage with her and he realized that life with Alma was going to leave much to be desired, when he compared it  to  even stolen moments with  Jack .
 In the motel scene Ennis stated that He did'nt think he'd ever see Jack again and  maybe even thought Jack killed in the war.  Had resigned to a  unfullfilled life with Alma. To his suprise....

Perhaps in the end he decided that he would do what he had to do to see Jack. Try and give Jack as much happiness  within his reason to make up for the fact that he could'nt give Jack what he knew Jack wanted most of all, a committment and a ranch together. Any one or any thing that got in the way of that, had to go, including Alma. Think he felt guilt for being in the situation having to hurt both Jack and Alma, his girls ,..etc... by not being able to commit totally to either. My ramblings.

[welshwitch]

He seems to me to accept consciously that Alma is there, and that there are the girls, so that he has responsibilities, and ones that conventional society would expect him to fulfill. But fulfilling them ties him down and involves him in things he can;t be bothered with - Alma's desire to mix with people in Riverton , for example, and have some sort of social life, which is of no interest to him. It's a though he compartmentalises this whole part of his life almost like someone serving a life sentence, grimly ticking off the days. Then there are the brief times with Jack, which is a whole different sort of life; Ennis isn't self-analytical, but even he must sense the difference and feel guilty about his grudging, limited commitment to Alma.

[babytammy7]

Perhaps in the end he decided that he would do what he had to do to see Jack. Try and give Jack as much happiness  within his reason to make up for the fact that he could'nt give Jack what he knew Jack wanted most of all, a committment and a ranch together. Any one or any thing that got in the way of that, had to go, including Alma. Think he felt guilt for being in the situation having to hurt both Jack and Alma, his girls ,..etc... by not being able to commit totally to either. My ramblings.

Thank you so much for this AF!!! I needed it. Now I see and understand Ennis contribution to their relationship more clearly. Maybe he didn't give Jack that sweet life, but he sacrificed his marriage and a lot of things, making him feeling guilty, to do what he had to do to see Jack, to make him happy and to make up for his lack of commitment.